Can inclusive groups ever work?

[Mrs Mungo]

I assumed down south. I was really surprised to hear how public prayer and faith is by you!

 

A generic public prayer by a chaplain to kick things off is very, very common at military functions in all areas of the country.

[secular_mom]

A generic public prayer by a chaplain to kick things off is very, very common at military functions in all areas of the country.

Yep, but they do seem to last longer here.

[KarenNC]

Also, the explosion of info and support on the internet changed the face of support groups. I think what made this group work is that is was a support group, not a co op. We had an "if you build it, they will come" philosophy. If you wanted something for your children, you made it happen and invited people to join you. If people didn't like what you were doing, they were free to do their own thing. Most of the newer homeschoolers (many seemed to be escaping a bad school situation, rather than embracing the lifestyle of homeschooling) wondered why we didn't have activities for their kids. They just couldn't wrap their heads around the idea that they were in charge - if they wanted something, they needed to make it happen.

 

This is an issue that's hitting *all* homeschool groups, not just inclusive ones. There are very traditional, specifically Christian groups in our area which are folding because of this once the founders are ready to move on.

 

It seems to be part of the fact that homeschoolers are now a target market for businesses rather than having to create their own options. It's much easier every year to homeschool because of options for materials, activities, social acceptance, more homeschoolers with whom to connect, etc. Also, American society, at least, seems to have moved from the "rugged individualist" who creates his own opportunities to the "rugged consumerist" who wants what he wants, exactly the way he wants it, right now, provided by someone else. It's not limited to homeschoolers--I see it in religious communities as well. There's not a sense of co-creation.

[Mrs Mungo]

Yep, but they do seem to last longer here.

 

:D

[Carol in Cal.]

Around here, what people call 'inclusive' is actually 'secular'. It's inclusive only in that it includes people of many faiths, but talking about anything regarding faith is pretty much taboo.

[secular_mom]

Around here, what people call 'inclusive' is actually 'secular'. It's inclusive only in that it includes people of many faiths, but talking about anything regarding faith is pretty much taboo.

Does it work?

[Carol in Cal.]

Does it work?

 

Obviously, it doesn't work as INCLUSIVE. It works as SECULAR. That was my point.

[mathewsgang]

Amen!

[Cindyz]

Around here, what people call 'inclusive' is actually 'secular'. It's inclusive only in that it includes people of many faiths, but talking about anything regarding faith is pretty much taboo.

 

 

Would you mind if they talked about the inconsistencies in the bible and evolution? or are these taboo too? When you're in an all inclusive group, there are things that both sides find taboo to speak of.

 

I have never in my life felt such a divide between myself and those who are more religious as I do now that we have started home schooling. This will probably get me in trouble, but I have always felt that the divide comes from the religious side and not from me. I'm more than happy and willing to accept anyone and everyone no matter their faith or beliefs...unfortunately, I have found that the opposite is not true. Whenever I talk to most other home school moms, I can tell they are feeling me out. As soon as they see we are not using religious curricula, they never to out of their way to talk to me again and will actually walk away or avert their gaze if they see me. It's so insulting and upsetting.

 

In our area, the vast majority of people seem to home school for religious reasons, and those who don't seem to unschool. It's very difficult to find a "place" as a classical secular home schooler. Luckily, we have found a place through the local school system program for home schoolers so my son is able to participate in many fun programs. However, I haven't been able to make any connections with the parents because of the above mentioned reasons.

Edited April 2, 2011 by Cindyz

[ocelotmom]

Obviously, it doesn't work as INCLUSIVE. It works as SECULAR. That was my point.

 

What would an inclusive group look like to you?

 

We recently changed our local group description from secular to inclusive. We don't have a huge potential audience, and don't want people being scared off because they go to church or homeschool for religious reasons if they're otherwise ok with our liberal group description.

 

I would be fine with people posting events at their church or religious-oriented co-op classes (as long as they were up-front about the religious orientation), having a quiet group prayer with other interested members at the beginning of an event, or discussing religious things with others interested in discussing it. I would not be fine with aggressive or coercive efforts to convert myself, or especially my children, loud group prayer, or other things that infringe on the comfort of those who don't share the same faith. For that matter, I wouldn't be ok with Christian (or other religion) bashing, either.

 

Would you consider that to be inclusive or secular?

 

If the handful of members who are already in the group are utterly uninterested in discussing religion, does that make it secular if we're willing to accept religious people as long as they aren't forcing the discussion on us?

 

(Same applies to any subject, not just religion. I'm no more interested in spending the whole time talking about TV shows, but that doesn't mean it's an anti-TV group.)

Edited April 2, 2011 by ocelotmom

[laundrycrisis]

I personally have never felt that religion needs to be "taboo" in an inclusive group. As long as differences between members are respected, and all religions are equally acceptable to be open about, and people aren't trying to convert each other, I really don't see a problem with it coming up when it relates to group activities or to homeschooling in general. For some people it is a big part of their lives and if I really want to know them, that is part of them I will need to know about. I don't want anyone to feel that they have to hide their faith. References to faith that are respectful, not arguments, criticisms, or attempts to convert others truly do not bother me at all. But it's really important that those of the pagan or atheist or new age or any other persuasion can be just as open about themselves as the Christians and not have to deal with criticism or discrimination within the group.

 

IMO it's also a good rule that communications that go to the whole group should have something to do with either the group or with homeschooling. As in, we could do this, or this might be useful, etc. There is no problem with mention of a religious connection with that. But an inclusive homeschool group isn't the place for anyone of any faith (or lack thereof) to post a bunch of stuff about their beliefs in a way that has no relation to the group or to homeschooling. Same with politics. Unless it relates to homeschooling somehow, an inclusive group isn't a good place to bring it up.

 

These are some ideas for how an inclusive group can stay on track, provide support, friendship, information and activities for everyone involved, and not feel like a place where anyone feels they have to hide their faith (whatever it is) like some kind of dirty secret. I would not enjoy being in a group that felt like that. It would not feel like a warm and welcoming place.

[stripe]

There are successful interfaith groups in my area, but they're not homeschooling. I think people need to either discuss something openly OR agree to not address it. But to assume for example that something is fine with other people and religions without checking, might not lead to real inclusiveness.

[Audrey]

These are the reasons I say "no" it cannot work.

 

 

What do you mean by accept? In my faith (Christian - Baptist) we are taught to witness to others. I can understand that there are different beliefs in the world, but of course I believe that mine is going to get me to Heaven....and I don't want to see anyone left behind. So if I truly believe that, shouldn't I be witnessing to others? Or should I just put on a "don't care about others" attitude? That would completely go against everything I believe.

 

Can I GET ALONG with people of other faiths? Of course! I can get along with them without arguing. Do I pray for them? Of course!

 

 

Because there is always going to be one of these people who can't grasp the possibility that there is a time and place for everything AND a wrong time and place, too, and they're bent on using the group to "save souls."

 

Some people (not all of course) who are really into the "less structured" philosophy can get really dogmatic about it. When this happens in any group which is not specifically built around that particular philosophy, they are IMO in need of a polite reminder that inclusive groups welcome diversity, and not everyone is going to follow what they are following, and that's okay. If they can't handle a group with a variety of ideas about how to homeschool, without criticizing approaches different than their own, they should perhaps go start a group specific to their own preferred philosophy.

 

Because there is always one of these people who treat their homeschooling philosophy like it was written in stone. (And, it goes both ways -- not just dogmatic relaxed homeschoolers, but also dogmatic structured homeschoolers.)

 

I think inclusive groups could work if religion is not the focus of the group. As I said in another thread, the only time I find religion is brought up in any group activity I participate in is when it is a homeschooling group. Religion is not discussed at exercise class, book club, meditation group, charitable group, business meetings, or the annual Christmas party for dh's work. It isn't brought up when I talk to moms at karate lessons or dance lessons either.

 

I don't get why it is such a focus for some homeschoolers.

 

Because it just is. Some people will not conceed that they aren't welcome to proselytize 24/7 and in any situation.

 

Wow, that's totally different than here. People here are constantly wearing their religion on their sleeves and then waving their arms in our faces :tongue_smilie:and then they start on the politics. Small talk here= God talk and politics. If you're waiting in line too long it's Obama's fault and the 'nice' old lady in front of you will start telling you to make sure you are stockpiling because things are going to be getting worse and worse and make sure you are right with the Lord. Seriously. It's bizarre, and I am NOT making this stuff up.

Oh, and there's the mandatory prayer before any type of function I attend at DH's work.

 

Yes. There is usually at least one of these people, too. Every meeting becomes their political platform. Again, it is an issue of not being capable of understanding that they aren't welcome to politicize 24/7 and in any situation.

[kalphs]

Because there is always going to be one of these people who can't grasp the possibility that there is a time and place for everything AND a wrong time and place, too, and they're bent on using the group to "save souls."

 

Because there is always one of these people who treat their homeschooling philosophy like it was written in stone. (And, it goes both ways -- not just dogmatic relaxed homeschoolers, but also dogmatic structured homeschoolers.)

 

Because it just is. Some people will not conceed that they aren't welcome to proselytize 24/7 and in any situation.

 

Yes. There is usually at least one of these people, too. Every meeting becomes their political platform. Again, it is an issue of not being capable of understanding that they aren't welcome to politicize 24/7 and in any situation.

You've made some excellant points Audrey! :)

[4everHis]

Any time a large number of women get together for anything there is bound to be a fight.:boxing_smiley:

 

part of me lol but then I realized how true this is. :confused:

[laundrycrisis]

These are the reasons I say "no" it cannot work.

 

Because there is always going to be one of these people who can't grasp the possibility that there is a time and place for everything AND a wrong time and place, too, and they're bent on using the group to "save souls."

 

Because there is always one of these people who treat their homeschooling philosophy like it was written in stone. (And, it goes both ways -- not just dogmatic relaxed homeschoolers, but also dogmatic structured homeschoolers.)

 

Because it just is. Some people will not conceed that they aren't welcome to proselytize 24/7 and in any situation.

 

Yes. There is usually at least one of these people, too. Every meeting becomes their political platform. Again, it is an issue of not being capable of understanding that they aren't welcome to politicize 24/7 and in any situation.

 

Doesn't this stuff sometimes happen in religious homeschool groups too ? I am assuming perhaps it does - at least in Christian groups that don't have a membership all from the exact same type of church and political views and aren't all following the same program. I know some of the Christian groups in our area are actually pretty diverse. I could see how they might also experience internal squabbles over the "right" religious views, the "right" political views, and the "right" approach to home education. I suspect these issues are not unique to "inclusive" groups.

[Carol in Cal.]

 

I would be fine with people posting events at their church or religious-oriented co-op classes (as long as they were up-front about the religious orientation), having a quiet group prayer with other interested members at the beginning of an event, or discussing religious things with others interested in discussing it. I would not be fine with aggressive or coercive efforts to convert myself, or especially my children, loud group prayer, or other things that infringe on the comfort of those who don't share the same faith. For that matter, I wouldn't be ok with Christian (or other religion) bashing, either.

 

Would you consider that to be inclusive or secular?

That sounds inclusive to me. Our local secular groups would not allow some of that behavior, and would bristle at other parts of it. Info about non-Christian faiths is regarded as culturally interesting, and info from Christian faiths is a no-no. That's not an inclusive stance, although the groups call themselves inclusive. Secular would be a more precise term.

 

If the handful of members who are already in the group are utterly uninterested in discussing religion, does that make it secular if we're willing to accept religious people as long as they aren't forcing the discussion on us?

 

(Same applies to any subject, not just religion. I'm no more interested in spending the whole time talking about TV shows, but that doesn't mean it's an anti-TV group.)

 

 

 

The two examples you give here are not quite analogous.

 

If they say, we don't want to ever have anyone talk about religion, then it's secular. It's banning religion entirely.

 

If they say, we don't want to ever have anyone talk about TV, then it's anti-TV. It's banning TV entirely.

 

If they say, we don't want to talk about religion or TV all the doggone time; that's just too much! then it's not anti anything, it's pro-diverse conversation :).

 

People's faith is a big part of who they are. If you want to know the whole of someone, that's part of the whole. It's not all of it, but it's important. If you ban it, that's a move away from being inclusive to being secular.

[laundrycrisis]

People's faith is a big part of who they are. If you want to know the whole of someone, that's part of the whole. It's not all of it, but it's important. If you ban it, that's a move away from being inclusive to being secular.

 

:iagree:

 

Honestly I feel that inclusive groups that don't strictly "ban" have a better chance of working than strictly secular groups. I have been in a few "secular" groups and I observed that the "banning" caused discomfort even in people who were 99-100% secular in their approach to homeschooling, because they were afraid of drawing criticism if one of their kids mentioned anything related to their church and felt like they had to explain it quickly when it happened. Sad.

 

In one group, three of us were off by ourselves having a very quiet side discussion at a play event - one lady was looking for a different kind of church and we were quietly, privately discussing Unity and UU as possibilities to try. I found out later the one of the group organizers was upset we had this conversation even though it could only be overheard if someone was standing right next to us. The group was not explicitly secular and nothing was being pushed anyone - it was a comfortable and private response to a request for information, which apparently broke some unstated rule. Again, sad.

 

I think the "banning" of religion happens out of fear. There is a fear that if faith is let out of the box at all, the group will become a place where those of the majority belief system share freely, all the time, and everyone else feels uncomfortable. I believe the banning happens with the best of intentions of keeping an inclusive feeling to the group. But there is a balance to strike between "that's private and personal and we don't bring it up here at all" that feels stifling and "faith is part of who we are and doesn't need to be a hidden secret" that is important to temper with some expectations of mutual respect. Ideally an inclusive group can find that balance, and people of all beliefs can be accepted equally when they are shared, and nobody has to feel like any reference to faith is unmentionable. Even though I am very secular in my approach to homeschooling, I did not feel comfortable in the "ban" type groups.

[ocelotmom]

People's faith is a big part of who they are. If you want to know the whole of someone, that's part of the whole. It's not all of it, but it's important. If you ban it, that's a move away from being inclusive to being secular.

You know, as long as people keep their religion talk about their own lives, I'm happy with it, even if it's a regular topic of conversation.

 

It's when someone starts trying to convert me, gets intrusive about what I believe, or starts talking about certain groups (which I may happen to belong to) being sinful or evil that I start having issues.

 

While it may have been against the "official" policy, people in my secular group talked religion (including Christianity) all the time. I think the secular stance just helped prevent it from being a divisive issue, as well as discouraging those who are very dogmatic from joining.

[The Girls' Mom]

I belong to a very inclusive group. We are a group of moms and kids that have taken the time to get to know one another, including different faiths. It's not taboo to talk about, and it's understood that you don't bash anyone. The friendships I've made, I wouldn't trade. We are a rather conservative Christian family, but we purposely joined a group that wasn't exclusively Christian. And I've also been upfront that I will pray for others, but I will not force my faith down their throats. It works for us...but I think it's because we operate under the assumption that we are adults capable of behaving as such.

[KidsHappen]

I belonged to an extremely large (150+ families) inclusive group in FL. Religion was not an issue. As a matter of fact, I don't really remember any issues at all. There we plenty of different subgroups of people with common interest within the main group. For instance, I was a major player in the tween subgroup as my middle two were that age at the time. I also belonged to TWTM subgroup and the mom's coffee group. I wasn't aware of any religious subgroups or unschooling subgroups but there may have been. Overall, it was an exceptionally smooth running group. My children and I miss it greatly but my tweens have stayed in touch with all the other tweens all this time (8 years now) and one of them is my future SIL. :)

[Carol in Cal.]

In one group, three of us were off by ourselves having a very quiet side discussion at a play event - one lady was looking for a different kind of church and we were quietly, privately discussing Unity and UU as possibilities to try. I found out later the one of the group organizers was upset we had this conversation even though it could only be overheard if someone was standing right next to us. The group was not explicitly secular and nothing was being pushed anyone - it was a comfortable and private response to a request for information, which apparently broke some unstated rule. Again, sad.

 

 

 

This is the kind of thing that happens where I am.

 

And, honestly, I didn't mind it at first, but over time it became very wearing, especially after some of other faiths joined the group and started talking about their beliefs and practices a lot, and were made so welcome to do that.

 

Thankfully I found an inclusive Christian group--here 'inclusive Christian' means 'any kind of Christian welcomed' that I could join. It didn't help my DD but it was a relief to me as there was a big part of my homeschooling that I could (finally) mention here and there.