Am I missing something with Everyday Math?

[amo_mea_filiis.]

DS had an IEP meeting last week to add a 1-on-1 math pull out with the learning support teacher. I asked why they felt it was better to keep him with the everyday math curicculum instead of the mastery based program used in the special ed math group. The regular teacher said something about EM giving the foundation, or understanding in math topics. I can't remember her exact words, but it seemed to go against what I've learned about EM and how confusing it can be.

 

I'm not overly concerned because I'm registering both kids for cyber school (TODAY :D) and he will not be using EM next year. I'm just curious, I guess what EM was trying to get at with their curicculum, but maybe missed.

[....]

...if you're just going to switch programs this fall, it's probably not a big deal. And, maybe there are people that like EM. Maybe you could afterschool math with him if you are worried. Do you know where he is, math-wise?

 

I'm just so used to Singapore that EM really seemed beyond my comprehension.

[Chris in VA]

I've heard that success with EM is highly dependent on how the teacher implements it--they need special training to really make it an effective program (and even then, like all math programs, one size doesn't fit all).

I don't think your kids will be harmed, and you are pulling them anyway, so just meet them where they are next year, and don't sweat the 2.5 months of school that are left. :001_smile:

[unsinkable]

DS had an IEP meeting last week to add a 1-on-1 math pull out with the learning support teacher. I asked why they felt it was better to keep him with the everyday math curicculum instead of the mastery based program used in the special ed math group. The regular teacher said something about EM giving the foundation, or understanding in math topics. I can't remember her exact words, but it seemed to go against what I've learned about EM and how confusing it can be.

 

I'm not overly concerned because I'm registering both kids for cyber school (TODAY :D) and he will not be using EM next year. I'm just curious, I guess what EM was trying to get at with their curicculum, but maybe missed.

 

The teacher might really believe in EM. It might fit her learning philosophy.

 

She also might not have a choice in curriculum and has decided to live with it, come heck or high water.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

I sort of after school with singapore K. Sort of means we do it when he's willing! He was really stuck for a while on sorting, so we worked on hands-on sorting for a few weeks.

 

I really have no idea where he is with math. He was recently tested using Key Math 3, and the Group Mathematics Assessment and Diagnostic Evaluation (G-MADE). He scored all below to well below grade level. However, some of the scores with age equiv. were only a month or 2 off. Most things he scored at beginning K or late pre-k.

 

Hopefully these scores will help with proper placement in cyber school.

 

The teacher seemed to really like EM, but maybe it's because it's the only option and she's grown to love it. Either way, I don't get it!

[Perry]

The teacher seemed to really like EM, but maybe it's because it's the only option and she's grown to love it. Either way, I don't get it!

I have heard many teachers say they like EM because they were never good at math, but once they started teaching EM they finally began to understand it.

 

I don't believe that makes it necessarily appropriate for elementary students though.

[Sara R]

She might "really like it" because she's a kindergarten teacher and doesn't see the long-term effect of this curriculum. Talk to the high school teachers who see the long-term results (kids who need a calculator to figure out 9 x 4) and you'll see a different, more educated opinion.

[kiana]

When EM works, it's really good. When it's been implemented by a teacher who understands the subject and supplements with drill as needed, it can often work.

 

When it fails, it's abysmal. When it's implemented by a teacher who has little subject-area knowledge and no interest in learning, and pushed through with calculator usage by TI reps, it's one of the worst choices.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

She might "really like it" because she's a kindergarten teacher and doesn't see the long-term effect of this curriculum. Talk to the high school teachers who see the long-term results (kids who need a calculator to figure out 9 x 4) and you'll see a different, more educated opinion.

 

DD who is 10yo, ending 4th grade is taking the cyber school math placement test. She's done EM since kindy. She can't answer a basic word problem. :001_huh:

 

I don't have it in front of me, but the question is basically--- There are 20 rows of 46 chairs. There will be X (don't remember) number of people coming. Do you have enough chairs?

 

First she started by dividing 46 by 20. Realized that wasn't going to work. Now she's drawing 20 circles and putting 46 dashes in each circle. :confused: Seriously? I know that'll get her the correct answer, but that is (IMO) a very basic multiplication word problem.

[Garga]

First she started by dividing 46 by 20. Realized that wasn't going to work. Now she's drawing 20 circles and putting 46 dashes in each circle. :confused: Seriously? I know that'll get her the correct answer, but that is (IMO) a very basic multiplication word problem.

 

Oh dear.

[creekland]

She might "really like it" because she's a kindergarten teacher and doesn't see the long-term effect of this curriculum. Talk to the high school teachers who see the long-term results (kids who need a calculator to figure out 9 x 4) and you'll see a different, more educated opinion.

 

Ah yes. These would be my classes (sigh).

[Crimson Wife]

I have heard many teachers say they like EM because they were never good at math, but once they started teaching EM they finally began to understand it.

 

All the people I know who just :001_wub: "fuzzy" math like EDM freely admit that they were "stupid" at math growing up and that's why they like this program. Why bother trying to figure out why the traditional algorithms work when you can just teach neat parlor tricks like the "lattice method" and resort to a calculator when the numbers get too big? :glare:

[Jean in Newcastle]

All the people I know who just :001_wub: "fuzzy" math like EDM freely admit that they were "stupid" at math growing up and that's why they like this program. Why bother trying to figure out why the traditional algorithms work when you can just teach neat parlor tricks like the "lattice method" and resort to a calculator when the numbers get too big? :glare:

 

I don't know about that. I didn't understand some basic fundamentals about math until I was learning to teach math in college. I had wanted to when I was a child but when I asked my teachers those pesky "why" questions, I was told "just because" and then told to "just do it the way I showed you." The problem with EM is that it shows the child the whys in the early grades (when the basics should be taught) but doesn't move on from them. A good program like Singapore teaches the whys, then teaches the algorithm, teach the whys, teaches the algorithm etc.

[Catherine]

I don't have an opinion about Everyday Math, but I do know that judging a program by one child is probably unfair. I've homeschooled him from the beginning, and used Rightstart math. I"m happy with his progress, but he really has struggled with math (he has some processing issues similar to dyslexia). Anything with multiple steps, like multidigit multiplication, word problems, or long division, he really has trouble with doing without guidance.

 

My point is that judging a math program based on one student's performance is not really fair.

[EthiopianFood]

First she started by dividing 46 by 20. Realized that wasn't going to work. Now she's drawing 20 circles and putting 46 dashes in each circle. :confused: Seriously? I know that'll get her the correct answer, but that is (IMO) a very basic multiplication word problem.

 

Your child has an IEP, tests four grade levels behind in math, but understands what the problem is asking for? He understands what the problem means, and can visualize it enough in his head to know SOME way to do it? He can see he is wrong with his first attempt, and is correct with only one more attempt? This sounds like a major success to me. I dealt with this sort of thing with my dn, and let me tell you, if he actually understands what the word problem MEANS, he is really doing well!

[amo_mea_filiis.]

Your child has an IEP, tests four grade levels behind in math, but understands what the problem is asking for? He understands what the problem means, and can visualize it enough in his head to know SOME way to do it? He can see he is wrong with his first attempt, and is correct with only one more attempt? This sounds like a major success to me. I dealt with this sort of thing with my dn, and let me tell you, if he actually understands what the word problem MEANS, he is really doing well!

 

You're probably thinking of another kid! This child does not have an IEP. She's only slightly behind in math. She is very ahead in reading, so I would expect her to get what they're asking.

[creekland]

My point is that judging a math program based on one student's performance is not really fair.

 

While I fully agree with this, I can tell you I'm not judging this math program based on one student.

 

I've worked in our local public high school subbing for math and science classes for 12 years now (this is my 12th year). When I first started we had some "older" math teachers (who have since retired) and we had some top students who really were top. They could get 4's and 5's on the AP Calc test. They would sit and figure out more difficult math problems. Sure, we still had kids who didn't or couldn't do all the above and were at various levels with math, but nonetheless, we had some top kids.

 

Today, with EM having been implemented 9 years ago and USCPM (another reform math) at the middle and high school level 5 years ago we no longer have these kids. When any take the AP Calc test they rarely get a 2, much less higher. Generally no one takes the test anymore. "Top" kids also do very poorly on the SAT/PSAT math and end up testing into remedial classes at average colleges.

 

The kids we have are just as intelligent, but their math skills are horrid. Even top kids can't multiply 6x8 without their calculators. "Normal" kids can't square 2 without a calculator. Forget any sort of division or fractions. I've had a kid in an Alg 2 class who couldn't multiply 4x2 in their head. I've had a kid in another class who couldn't multiply 3 x 100 in her head. She wasn't in learning support. They just have developed that much of a crutch with their calculators.

 

Yesterday's SAT Question of the Day was a very simple geometry question. When my classes were doing it, 70% of those doing the question from elsewhere online got it correct. So, I should see similar results (or better) since I was in three geometry classes who had all already covered the material, right? That would have been nice. Instead, I had 2 students get it right in my first class, 3 in my second, and back to 2 in my third. More than that just sat there and told me (out loud) that they didn't even know where to start. Others guessed answers out of the blue. Their trusty calculator couldn't do this one for them without their knowing what to plug in.

 

This link ought to get you to the question:

 

http://webmaila.juno.com/webmail/new/5?userinfo=4694a92b40881a95812d2e838934faeb&count=1301742287&randid=1780421526

 

If you haven't done geometry yet, you might not get it, but for students who not only have done it, but are currently doing it AND have recently covered it... I was bummed.

 

And it's not the first time I've used an SAT Qu of the Day and had very similar results from classes who SHOULD be able to answer them with ease.

 

Kids we have who have used EM and USCPM won't try anything difficult. They can't think. They don't know their math facts. They are stymied by the simplest of word problems. And, my biggest beef... they do NOT know the CONCEPTS this math (all math) is supposed to be teaching.

 

We pulled my youngest from ps after 4th grade and he was 2 YEARS behind grade level in math. From 5th to 8th we homeschooled him and caught him up + more. He successfully did Alg 1 in 8th (which is what average kids do in our district). This year he's in Geometry at ps (his desire to return). He's often told us he's the only one who can do the math without a calculator when needed. Yesterday they did a "team test." He told us it wasn't exactly a team effort (no big surprise there). The other kids could do the calculator stuff with ease (sin, cos, tan), but when it came to thinking about a word problem (finding the diagonal of a 3D box knowing just the dimensions - L/W/H) he was the only one out of his whole class who could sit and figure it out using those concepts. His teacher came over to watch to see if he could get it - then told him he was correct.

 

It was a nice ego boost for this son, but, he's NOT a math talented kid. He's average in math ability. I know. I have two math talented kids and I've seen hundreds of math students over the years. Had he stayed in EM he'd be in the "no hope" class and would be as poor at math skills as the rest of them. Since we pulled him out and TAUGHT him MATH he's in the top of the top class and right up their at or above the top pending what they are doing. He probably won't ever do calculus as he's not really that talented in math and certainly doesn't love it. But an "average" kid without EM in our school sure appears to beat a "top" kid with EM.

 

In reality, it's sad. (Good for him, but sad overall.)

 

AND, he knows by choosing ps that he will be finishing a REAL math Geometry program at home over the summer. I'll let him test out of what he knows, then complete what he doesn't know. He even agrees with us that he should. ;)

[Perry]

 

Today, with EM having been implemented 9 years ago and USCPM (another reform math) at the middle and high school level 5 years ago we no longer have these kids. When any take the AP Calc test they rarely get a 2, much less higher. Generally no one takes the test anymore. "Top" kids also do very poorly on the SAT/PSAT math and end up testing into remedial classes at average colleges.

 

The kids we have are just as intelligent, but their math skills are horrid.

:iagree:

Here's a post I wrote last year.

 

EDM and TERC Investigations are why I started homeschooling. Loathe. Them.

 

My dd went back to ps this year. She takes Geometry with a small class of 8th graders who are the highest achieving math students in the school. Most of them are in the talented and gifted program.

Last month the teacher gave them a fraction assessment.

 

It was a 32 question test over the 4 basic operations. An example: 3/5 +2/5=?

My dd found it very simple and finished it in 7 minutes. None of the other kids finished in the allotted 30 minutes, and they all found it very difficult.

 

 

She frequently helps her classmates with their algebra and T-math. She is astounded by what they don't know and haven't been taught. They are constantly using convoluted, complicated methods to solve basic, straightforward problems. When she shows them how she does it, they are shocked and say "well that makes sense. Why didn't they just teach us that!"

 

These are bright, motivated kids. They haven't been taught math. It is inexcusable that the best 8th grade math students can't do simple fractions.

 

 

She is doing Algebra 2 at home with me this year, using Foerster. Her sister is doing Algebra 2 at ps, using USCMP. The difference in what they are able to do is shocking.

[Melinda in VT]

DD who is 10yo, ending 4th grade is taking the cyber school math placement test. She's done EM since kindy. She can't answer a basic word problem. :001_huh:

 

I don't have it in front of me, but the question is basically--- There are 20 rows of 46 chairs. There will be X (don't remember) number of people coming. Do you have enough chairs?

 

First she started by dividing 46 by 20. Realized that wasn't going to work. Now she's drawing 20 circles and putting 46 dashes in each circle. :confused: Seriously? I know that'll get her the correct answer, but that is (IMO) a very basic multiplication word problem.

 

*shrug* I just gave this problem to my twins. They are finishing up 5th grade and have used EM the whole way through. I do not supplement their math during the school year, although some summers I have given them some math worksheets to do.

 

I just gave both of them the problem separately, using 905 for the number of people. They both multiplied 20 by 46 using the standard algorithm and returned the correct answer.

 

I think EM is often implemented poorly, but I continue to be satisfied with the way my kids' school is teaching math using EM. (And yes, I promise to come back here and tell you if it turns out that my kids have trouble with math in high school, just to set the record straight. ;) My oldest is taking pre-calc as a freshman, but I don't think he's a typical EM graduate.)

 

I think there is reason to be cautious and even suspicious of a school's use of EM, but I do not think that EM always fails.

[creekland]

She is doing Algebra 2 at home with me this year, using Foerster. Her sister is doing Algebra 2 at ps, using USCMP. The difference in what they are able to do is shocking.

 

I can fully believe there is a world of difference. My guy has been asked numerous times how he does things and has shown others. But the majority of the students now just consider him the "smart one" and don't bother trying to learn those things themselves.

 

I won't argue that EM doesn't work for everyone, but the vast majority do better with a different course of action from what I've seen. There are very, very, VERY few in my school who do better with EM. A few that do ok with it would likely do just as well with a different curriculum.

[Lisa in Jax]

When EM works, it's really good. When it's been implemented by a teacher who understands the subject and supplements with drill as needed, it can often work.

 

When it fails, it's abysmal. When it's implemented by a teacher who has little subject-area knowledge and no interest in learning, and pushed through with calculator usage by TI reps, it's one of the worst choices.

 

EXACTLY. Well said.

 

Lisa

[EthiopianFood]

You're probably thinking of another kid! This child does not have an IEP. She's only slightly behind in math. She is very ahead in reading, so I would expect her to get what they're asking.

 

I was thinking about the child you mentioned in your OP. :) I didn't notice that you had switched ds/dd.

[amo_mea_filiis.]

I was thinking about the child you mentioned in your OP. :) I didn't notice that you had switched ds/dd.

 

Makes sense, sorry! LOL.