Crosspost - Why you should work on TWTM skills - narration, dictation, outlining, etc

[Nan in Mass]

Part two of: Why you should work on TWTM skills - narration, dictaion, outlining, etc

 

PPPPS LLLLOL

I have found that assignments that start with a blank piece of paper tend to require more from my children than assignments that áre more worksheet-like. There are good worksheets out there, good question sets that require thinking, but there are many that just require spitting back the information instead of doing something with it.

I have also noticed that the more adult the work, the more likely it is to involve doing research, writing a hypothesis and trying to prove it, or taking a stance about something and try to persuade people you are right. If you keep those end goals in mind, then you can ask yourself, "Is this assignment leading to being able to do that?"

Every so often the hive has a thread in which people whose children have graduated from college come back and post about encouraging thinking. They always say one thing: talk with your children. They say that discussing things was the most important thing they did. They talk about discussing what everyone is learning and what is happening in the family and what is happening in the world. They talk about encouraging their children to defend their (the children's) points of view and question their parents' points of view.

 

PPPPPS LOL -

You might want to think about whole-to-parts and parts-to-whole.

 

Some people learn better if they can see the big picture - what this little thing is a part of, where it fits in, how it relates to the other parts, how it is used in real life. If you teach them the little parts in an unconnected way, they have trouble remembering them long enough for enough the little pieces to accumulate that the big picture emerges. They also may have trouble making the connections and putting the pieces together, even if they manage to remember them. On the other hand, some people are driven nuts by situations that present the big picture first. They want to learn the little pieces thoroughily first and afterwards figure out how to put the little things together into a useful picture or job. It seems like more work to try to swallow everything at once. They object to doing the whole job badly while they wait until they have managed to figure out how to do a reasonable job on the pieces.

 

Obviously, some jobs lend themselves more to one form or the other. Sometimes it is dangerous to do the job badly and figure out the pieces as you go along. Sometimes it is difficult to disentangle the pieces to teach them separately. Usually the pieces aren't much use unless at some point you pull the pieces together and practise the job as a whole.

 

I think part of what makes reading and writing difficult to teach is the fact that we ask children to read and write for other subjects while we are teaching them the pieces that will help them to become better readers and writers. In other words, we expect the "bad" job (the age appropriate job). Then, being homeschoolers without much experience in what is appropriate for different ages, we suddenly raise our expectations and begin a new round of teaching. Or even worse, your expectations go up but you don't begin that new round of the teaching of the pieces, or you continue to teach the pieces but never offer opportunities to put them together into something useful.

 

(1) If you have a child who is especially good at figuring out those pieces while practising the whole job, then teaching the pieces separately might not be a good use of your time. On the other hand, a child that struggles with the whole job can be doing so for two reasons: (2) It might be that you have a child who can do the pieces but struggles to put them together, then you need to put extra time into showing them how to do the whole job, possibly by modeling it over and over. (3) Or it might be that you have a child who can't do the whole job because he can't do certain of the pieces. You have to figure out which of these three scenarios matches your child at this particular time AND THEN KEEP CHECKING TO SEE IF IT STILL IS TRUE AT THE NEXT LEVEL.

 

 

-Nan

Edited March 28, 2011 by Nan in Mass
Added the PPPPPS - just trying to keep everything together : )

[Michele B]

How do I find these threads from 2009? I searched Colleens posts and I could only go back as far as Jan 2011. I really want to read more about this! :001_smile:

[HootyTooty]

try using Google to search, I find that I can information on the board more accurately.

 

type: site:http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/ into the search bar and the info you want to search.

[Nan in Mass]

This applies to this thread so I am linking it here. I am still having nightmares about dooming children to years of drill with no fun stuff GRIN. I am one of the most out-of-the-box homeschoolers here, but many of you on this board don't normally read my posts so you don't know me. We're the ones who spent a whole fall reading The Iliad aloud together paddling our feet on the dock feeding the ducks, or cuddled up with the dog on our feet in front of the fire. I'm the one whose children vanish for months or weeks every year peacewalking in the middle of the school year. I'm the one whose 16 year old this year turned the temp on the refridgerator up so that it wouldn't cycle noisily on and off when he was using it as a soundproof box for a science experiment and we didn't discover it until a month later, after we finally decided that it might be our fault, not the grocery store's, that the milk kept going sour. This might help:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2564001#poststop

 

: )

-Nan

[Nan in Mass]

Added a PPPPPS LOL. Just trying to keep all the bits together. Well, in two posts now.

[mommy4ever]

I want to start by saying THANK YOU, NAN!!!

 

You will have saved my youngest a ton of grief, as we continue on this path. I have been more slack with her skills with copywriting, but have started picking it up. I knew it was important in the bigger picture, I just didn't see where yet. Since we're only grade 2 with her, we're ok. Now I can get a glimpse of why this is important.

 

My older 2 only started homeschooling this year(well dd11 for a few months last year, and it was hard, this year better).

 

DD14 is entering grade 9 next year. We're taking the year 'off' from regular path for both of these girls. We'll continue in math, and interests - dd14 wants to do highschool chemistry next year, so she needs her Algrebra 1 to do so. This is academic will satisfy to gov't, but it is her interests. The rest of the year is skills. She aspires to be a writer. Be it novelist, journalist, columnist, I don't know, but it is a passion. She suffers in the area of writing. So this year is about writing skills. Outlining, note taking, grammar and spelling. It doesn't follow our provincial guidelines, and that's ok. In the long run this will be the skills she needs for a life time.

 

With dd11, she is doing similar. She has huge science interests. We have already started her grade 7 sciences. We are using this year to develop her writing skills as well. I feel she'll end up in veterinary school and will need all those note taking skills and essay writing. We'll use her interests for outlining. She is loving her Apologia Science, so she is doing some outlining a few times a week from there. It will take time. But it makes her pause and absorb what she's reading, and see what it is really about. We'll continue this. She loves world history. Outlining is making her take note of the dates.

 

 

This really made me laugh! I hate to say it, but it's possible :tongue_smilie:. Along those lines, after backtracking and buckling down with DS (12) on many skill areas, I recently realized I was till tying his skates before skating lessons. I had to show him how to do it repeatedly and add 'practice tying skates' into his daily lessons. He put so much effort into, not tying his own laces, but arguing with me about why I do it better, complaining to me about the skates at the rink, etc! Finally, after a month, he is now tying his own laces. (sigh)

 

One of the instructors said, "I wondered if you were planning on continuing to tie his laces until he was 18 or something!"

 

Hummm...I just realized my DD (9) has only slip-on shoes. I don't think she knows how to tie laces of any kind. Yikes!

 

Shannon

 

 

This is not an unusual occurance! We have 4 that play ice sports, and dd is 14 and when her daddy goes, she loves for him to tie her skates, as do 1/2 the girls on her team. When I go, however, they do their own, and if they want help, they need to ask a team mate parent on their own(askign for help skill :) )

 

Ok, pray tell, how does one teach the kiddos to stop playing with the dog while working on Spanish??

 

We have this issue too. Being a fellow Canadian I understand the weather issues. We use the kennels. If the dogs are too distracting, and they are worse than the toddlers some days, then they are put in their kennels for the duration(crates). This isn't cruel, several trainers have encouraged this as we have a neurotic one, and the kennel time is the only time she relaxes.

 

:lol:

 

Carp! Ironing and sewing a button, adding to the life skills list. It's hard to figure out where to back off and let them struggle. Sometimes my son just wants me to do things for him because that's part of how he feels love. This weekend he was playing with Java code on his own, but this morning he wanted my help to figure out if HIS bacon was done enough. :confused: Aside from school, this whole "I want to be grown up, but don't quit being my mommy yet" is hard to balance.

 

LOL. Kids. Ds is the only one that does any sewing at all, or ironing. He was in air cadets and we were told as parents to let them do it. Show them the first time; they do it themselves after that. DS is in school and they have a dress program for Thursdays, dress shirt, dress pants, tie and vest. He cares for it all. Now to make that something to teach the girls too!

 

okay, reading this and freaking out,because I can barely get my kids to do basic math, copywork and read anything, but.....how does one teach test taking skills and organization for school work. I'm hopeless.......I need to be taught before I can teach any of this....eek......my kids will be lost at college, assuming they could get in or we could pay for it. And yes, I tie my 10 yos skates too.

 

I listened to a speaker from a local college, and he said, they love homeschoolers. He loved how well they did in college for being self motivated. He did however state that there are some weak areas, and he encouraged that parents have their kids do tests. (even if it isn't for marks, they don't need to know that). Not only do the tests, but have them as TIMED tests. Homeschoolers are known for getting off the path, on a tangent. Which is fine, but in college, everything is timed. So incorporate that as a skill, timed testing. The kids will thank you for it later. The other thing that was weak was sciences. He said do more science.

 

 

I want to add a little something, I'm new here, just a year(officially a year this week!). So I don't have tremendous experience.

 

This weekend I was at a local conference. The speaker was talking about homeschooling without losing your temper(or mind). This was a mom of 8 children. She said the one thing she did do, with children 4-8, was practice life skills. They practiced putting shoes in their spot. Putting coats on their hooks(hangers). Over and over. Nothing worse than going to leave and some one has a missing shoe, now everyone is late. They practiced tying shoes, how much toothpaste to use, how to wash hands. These seem silly and not good use of time. But she said, it took a little time now. She found out why the boys had no soap most of the time, 4 squirts each. Or why there was water on the doorknob and door, some one washed great but never dried their hands. Or that her one little girl took a perfect amount of soap on one hand then rinsed it off, never washing her hands properly :lol:. But if one doesn't take the time to teach the skill, the outcome is not likely to be what you want. The time spent with her kids teaching them what is expected for hand washing, when they come in the house, when they are leaving, after a meal, prior to a meal, helped ALL of them in the long run. No misunderstandings.

 

This will carry over to everything in life. There are many things I assume that the kids know how to do. That assumption has caused lots of frustrations.

 

So we start over. Teach the basics. My older girls have really had no grammar teaching. I'm starting from the beginning, some will go FAST, other areas not so fast. So, it is what it is. It's not their fault, our schools don't teach it, or at least to any depth. Same thing with their chores. I make very detailed lists for them. If I want them to clean a bathroom, I break it down to the littlest job. Or it doesn't get done.

 

Thanks again, Nan, for showing what all the pieces of the puzzles make when pulled together.

[Roxy Roller]

This weekend I was at a local conference. The speaker was talking about homeschooling without losing your temper(or mind). This was a mom of 8 children. She said the one thing she did do, with children 4-8, was practice life skills. They practiced putting shoes in their spot. Putting coats on their hooks(hangers). Over and over. Nothing worse than going to leave and some one has a missing shoe, now everyone is late. They practiced tying shoes, how much toothpaste to use, how to wash hands. These seem silly and not good use of time. But she said, it took a little time now. She found out why the boys had no soap most of the time, 4 squirts each. Or why there was water on the doorknob and door, some one washed great but never dried their hands. Or that her one little girl took a perfect amount of soap on one hand then rinsed it off, never washing her hands properly :lol:. But if one doesn't take the time to teach the skill, the outcome is not likely to be what you want. The time spent with her kids teaching them what is expected for hand washing, when they come in the house, when they are leaving, after a meal, prior to a meal, helped ALL of them in the long run. No misunderstandings.

 

This will carry over to everything in life. There are many things I assume that the kids know how to do. That assumption has caused lots of frustrations.

 

So we start over. Teach the basics. My older girls have really had no grammar teaching. I'm starting from the beginning, some will go FAST, other areas not so fast. So, it is what it is. It's not their fault, our schools don't teach it, or at least to any depth. Same thing with their chores. I make very detailed lists for them. If I want them to clean a bathroom, I break it down to the littlest job. Or it doesn't get done.

 

 

I think we were at the same conference in Edmonton. I came away from it realizing that I need to teach my children to take over a lot of the chores that I do, not only to lighten my load, but to train them.

Edited March 28, 2011 by Roxy Roller

[Hunter]

Bump!

 

WARNING: THIS IS A 2 YEAR OLD THREAD!!!!!!

[Alessandra]

Nan, thank you for writing this, and thanks to whomever resurrected it!

 

I am at the stage of just beginning to come to the conclusions that you both have arrived at. Years ago (I was after schooling), I thought that narration was a way to learn history and so on. How dumb can a parent be, lo!!!!! We also tried WWE level 1 when dc were in third grade -- both had/have some language learning issues and WWE was way too advance for them, even when I broke down reading into much smaller chunks.

 

I have been trying to incorporate some WTM skills in dd's hs -- thanks for the inspiration!

[Hunter]

I was so worried about bumping such an old thread, that I just wanted to warn everyone it was old. Maybe I overdid it a bit. :lol:

 

Not only do I think it's important to master the TWTM skils, I think it's important to master grammar skills before moving onto logic skills, and to master grammar and logic skills before attempting rhetoric skills.

 

Over the decades, I've learned the hard way not to gloss over the foundation to rush into advanced skills.

[Alessandra]

I was so worried about bumping such an old thread, that I just wanted to warn everyone it was old. Maybe I overdid it a bit. :lol:

 

Not only do I think it's important to master the TWTM skils, I think it's important to master grammar skills before moving onto logic skills, and to master grammar and logic skills before attempting rhetoric skills.

 

Over the decades, I've learned the hard way not to gloss over the foundation to rush into advanced skills.

 

 

It is a help to know when WWYD threads are old -- I have often answered these without looking at dates, lol. But this thread is sort of timeless -- I missed it first time around, so I'm glad it resurfaced.

 

I see you were the one who did that -- THANKS!

[Deee]

This is a fantastic thread! Thanks for bumping in, and thanks especially to Nan for her gentle wisdom. I'm taking away a lot from your posts.

D

[julikins]

Thanks, Hunter, for bumping this thread. It has helped me make a decision about my kids curricula for next year. Namely that I want to concentrate on the skills that are necessary for progressing to logic stage and that my daugther (5th now) isn't ready yet. So I'm working on figuring out what she needs to master before moving on. I've never done much with narrating, dictating, have not taught much outlining, so I need to step that up to where she can read something, outline the main points and write an essay on it, or where she can hear a lecture, take notes and rewrite them to summarize what's learned. Very good stuff. I also realize that there are life skills areas that I have missed teaching. And I'm going to start that now with my 2nd grader so he's not as behind as sis.

 

So, thanks. I'm going to work on this and I appreciate you bringing this to the forefront so I can make some decisions.

[mo2]

Nan, thank you for writing this, and thanks to whomever resurrected it!

 

I am at the stage of just beginning to come to the conclusions that you both have arrived at. Years ago (I was after schooling), I thought that narration was a way to learn history and so on. How dumb can a parent be, lo!!!!! We also tried WWE level 1 when dc were in third grade -- both had/have some language learning issues and WWE was way too advance for them, even when I broke down reading into much smaller chunks.

 

I have been trying to incorporate some WTM skills in dd's hs -- thanks for the inspiration!

 

Alessandra, I see why I've been talking (posting?) to you a lot lately. We seem to be in the same frame of mind right now. I recently decided that I REALLY need to go back to WWE. I don't want to. I dread it. It's like pulling teeth. But we need to.

I was so worried about bumping such an old thread, that I just wanted to warn everyone it was old. Maybe I overdid it a bit. :lol:

 

Not only do I think it's important to master the TWTM skils, I think it's important to master grammar skills before moving onto logic skills, and to master grammar and logic skills before attempting rhetoric skills.

 

Over the decades, I've learned the hard way not to gloss over the foundation to rush into advanced skills.

 

Hunter, what advice do you have for mastering the grammar skills? My 5th grader is not ready for logic-stage work yet. I posted on this awhile back, and I think you responded, but I would love to hear any other advice you have.

Thanks, Hunter, for bumping this thread. It has helped me make a decision about my kids curricula for next year. Namely that I want to concentrate on the skills that are necessary for progressing to logic stage and that my daugther (5th now) isn't ready yet. So I'm working on figuring out what she needs to master before moving on. I've never done much with narrating, dictating, have not taught much outlining, so I need to step that up to where she can read something, outline the main points and write an essay on it, or where she can hear a lecture, take notes and rewrite them to summarize what's learned. Very good stuff. I also realize that there are life skills areas that I have missed teaching. And I'm going to start that now with my 2nd grader so he's not as behind as sis.

 

So, thanks. I'm going to work on this and I appreciate you bringing this to the forefront so I can make some decisions.

 

Huh. Do we have the same daughter? So tell me, what curriculum have you decided on for next year? :)

[julikins]

Mo2, I just saw what you wrote...I'm going to just lay it all out and see what you think, kay :)

 

 

I'm feeling so torn about curriculum choices that I made a spreadsheet today with all the options I've debated on these last few months. I wrote them all out, then wrote out the pros and cons. I don't want it to come down to how much it costs, even though it is necessary to be considered.

 

So here are my choices:

 

For grammar I'm debating between the following:

• MCT Town (I thought about buying Sentence Island book and then going to MCT Town) for the love of language. I think she needs to learn to love language and not dread it. But it is too expensive! I'd love to find it used, but seems pretty impossible. I like that grammar is front-loaded in this and then she can concentrate on writing and other things. It also seems teacher dependent and time intensive. But am I willing to give up my time for her to love language--absolutely. Can I? I'm not sure yet.
  
• Hake Grammar 5 (very complete, she may benefit from the mastery, but it may bore her to death--I'm just not sure). But it would be independent and complete.
  
• Analytical Grammar--doing the three seasons which would mean that grammar would be "front-loaded" at the beginning of the year and then we could concentrate on writing afterward. It's alss very highly recommended.
  
• And then there is Essentials in Writing that is touted as the MUS of LA. She has done very well with MUS and learns that way, it would be independent. I'm just not sure this has been tested/used enough to know for sure it's a good choice.
  

 

For writing, I have decided to do WWE 3 and Writing Strands 4. I bought Killgallon Sentence Composing for Elementary Students, so I may do that afterwards, too. Then I would plan on doing WWS and The Creative Writer the next year.

 

She's struggling with spelling, so I'm using Megawords 2/3 next year. I'll probably add in some kind of reading/literary analysis program 2nd semester.

 

For History we are doing Rome and Medieval period using Story of the World/Mystery of History and History Encyclopedia. I'm going to have her make a notebook and either do summaries or outlines or something starting out simple and progressively getting more complex over the year.

 

For Science I'm doing Earth Science and Astronomy with different resources I'm putting together.

 

And my brain is fried, so I can't remember what else. Sorry. Let me know what you think about my grammar/writing choices. I'm so uncertain what to do!

[fluffybunny]

Personally, Julie, I would borrow the money to buy MCT grammar. It is the most "undry" - if there is such a word - grammar curriculum around. Sentence Island is so original and fun. In fact, "original" describes the entire MCT curriculum. ... you will actually look forward to it!

 

I also love this thread! It just nails what I really think is important for primary and middle school years: skills, skills, skills. That is why - *controversial statement alert* - I can't understand why some homeschoolers think that "child follows the lead" approach will be any good. How many kids are going to sit there honing their skills, doing math drills and begging for dictation exercises; stuff that requires effort? If anything, they will probably go for content, but not skills. So they will end up knowing hundreds of facts about subject matter from Wikipedia, without much depth, but can't do the 3 Rs to their potential. And as Andrew Pudewa says, they will not be able to use the 'content' in any meaningful way, because they have only a basic ability to put it into any useful form.

[julikins]

I agree, fluffybunny, that the skills need to be concentrated on and mastered in order for content to be used/digested/enjoyed in a meaninful way. That's why my heart breaks for my little girl who is so smart and creative and struggles with writing/spelling. I've read so often that around 12 things just clicked with some kids. I'm praying for that for her and will continuing working with her and encouraging her through this process. I'm going to keep looking for MCT and see what I can do about it. Thanks!

Julie

[mo2]

Mo2, I just saw what you wrote...I'm going to just lay it all out and see what you think, kay :)

 

 

I'm feeling so torn about curriculum choices that I made a spreadsheet today with all the options I've debated on these last few months. I wrote them all out, then wrote out the pros and cons. I don't want it to come down to how much it costs, even though it is necessary to be considered.

 

So here are my choices:

 

For grammar I'm debating between the following:

• MCT Town (I thought about buying Sentence Island book and then going to MCT Town) for the love of language. I think she needs to learn to love language and not dread it. But it is too expensive! I'd love to find it used, but seems pretty impossible. I like that grammar is front-loaded in this and then she can concentrate on writing and other things. It also seems teacher dependent and time intensive. But am I willing to give up my time for her to love language--absolutely. Can I? I'm not sure yet.

• Hake Grammar 5 (very complete, she may benefit from the mastery, but it may bore her to death--I'm just not sure). But it would be independent and complete.

• Analytical Grammar--doing the three seasons which would mean that grammar would be "front-loaded" at the beginning of the year and then we could concentrate on writing afterward. It's alss very highly recommended.

• And then there is Essentials in Writing that is touted as the MUS of LA. She has done very well with MUS and learns that way, it would be independent. I'm just not sure this has been tested/used enough to know for sure it's a good choice.

 

For writing, I have decided to do WWE 3 and Writing Strands 4. I bought Killgallon Sentence Composing for Elementary Students, so I may do that afterwards, too. Then I would plan on doing WWS and The Creative Writer the next year.

 

She's struggling with spelling, so I'm using Megawords 2/3 next year. I'll probably add in some kind of reading/literary analysis program 2nd semester.

 

For History we are doing Rome and Medieval period using Story of the World/Mystery of History and History Encyclopedia. I'm going to have her make a notebook and either do summaries or outlines or something starting out simple and progressively getting more complex over the year.

 

For Science I'm doing Earth Science and Astronomy with different resources I'm putting together.

 

And my brain is fried, so I can't remember what else. Sorry. Let me know what you think about my grammar/writing choices. I'm so uncertain what to do!

 

 

My plans/choices include some of the same as yours but some differences. For science, I will be using Holt Science and Technology Earth Science. I prefer secular texts that include evolution, so science is the one subject that I like using public school textbooks for. For history we are going to read through The Making of America and books from the library. The next year (7th grade), I plan to start K12 Human Odyssey. Now, for the SKILL-BASED subjects, which is going to be our focus, I am really going to try to go back to the basics. For spelling, we will continue with AAS. I just adore it, and dd actually likes it, too. For writing, I will do a combination of WWE 3 and Bravewriter. (I'm really hoping my paycheck this week is big enough that I can order the Bravewriter materials so I can start reading them!) For lit, I will be using CHOLL. Have you seen these? I think they are just great, and the author is kind enough to offer them for free. http://www.classical...oflearning.com/ And that brings me to grammar, which I am having the hardest time figuring out. Like you, I think I would like to use MCT but I have to be realistic. It just isn't going to happen. I can't afford it. :( So, I am going to do Easy Grammar Plus followed in a year or two by Jensen's Grammar and Punctuation. Oh, and I'm going to add in Building Thinking Skills and Red Herring Mysteries just to make her stretch her mind a bit. :) What do you think? Have I got everything covered? For math, we use Teaching Textbooks, so she does that independently. The bulk of my teacher time is going to be spent with spelling, writing, and grammar....mostly writing.

I like your choices. I think you can't go wrong with WWE 3. If it's easy for her, you can speed it up, or if she ends up needing more practice, you can do WWE 4 after it before beginning WWS. I think all of the grammar programs you listed are solid choices. MCT would be great if you can swing the cost. Same with AG----it was on my list too but was eliminated because of price. :) Hake is solid and includes lots of repetition, but as you pointed out, it might be boring. I have come to accept that some things are just boring, though, and have to be done regardless of whether or not we want to. EIW may work well for you if your dd likes watching video lessons. Mine doesn't. I chose Easy Grammar specifically because it is, well, easy. Then I want to follow up with Jensen's because it is of a higher level and includes diagramming. Really, I think all your choices for grammar would be fine. That doesn't help you make a decision, though, does it?

[SoCal Sandra]

Thanks for the important reminders, Hive. May I add my own little confirmation to the mix? I used WWE and now WWS with dss and we did some extra narration, outlining and dictation on the side. Last week, while we were on a field trip to the Norton Simon art museum, the docent asked our group if anyone could tell the story of an event depicted in Rubens' "David slaying Goliath."

 

Ds volunteered and after he spoke the docent said, "That was a perfect and concise account. You included all the important facts." That's when I whispered into my son's his ear, "Thank you, Susan Wise Bauer and Writing with Ease."

 

While I valued narration for the way it helps build writing skills, I had forgotten about the great benefits it lends to speaking and thinking.

[SFossum]

I'm so glad this thread was revived. I've been struggling as to whether or not to continue using WWE. We have about 8 more weeks of lessons in level 2. My 8 almost 9 year old sometimes cannot answer the questions even after I've read the passage to him a few times. Is this normal for a boy his age? About the summary exercise - some days he can do it and other days he can't. And the dictation - I can't even recall the exact words in a 10 to 15 word sentence after hearing it twice. How important is it to write the sentence word for word as long as the meaning is there and the sentence is grammatically correct?

[1pageatatime]

Printing this out to read and highlight.....

[Susie in CA]

I'm so glad this thread was revived. I've been struggling as to whether or not to continue using WWE. We have about 8 more weeks of lessons in level 2. My 8 almost 9 year old sometimes cannot answer the questions even after I've read the passage to him a few times. Is this normal for a boy his age? About the summary exercise - some days he can do it and other days he can't. And the dictation - I can't even recall the exact words in a 10 to 15 word sentence after hearing it twice. How important is it to write the sentence word for word as long as the meaning is there and the sentence is grammatically correct?

 

 

All of this is totally normal. Just continue on. Consistency is the key. Just like Nan says...often it seems all disconnected or not important or unimportant, but in the end you will see it all come together. My boys are now 12 and 14 and it is coming together. And I can see how important many of these things really are. Keep on keeping on.

[Donna A.]

Bumping because I agree that consistency and time are two key factors in this.  As a mom of two high schoolers, I can attest that it will all come together at some point.  Eight or nine is still very young... to a mom with high schoolers.  Perspective. ;)

 

One comment that Nan made in the OP that was a lightbulb moment for me was the idea that whole-to-parts and parts-to-whole are BOTH important, and that they complement one another.  They need both.  I knew this inherently, as we are neither CM purists nor classical purists, nor would I call myself a textbooker, but we've used all of those methods through the years:  both the whole-to-parts and the parts-to-whole.  I had never thought to describe it that way, but I've always believed that the use of multiple types of resources bring balance. 

 

Another point that Nan made was study skills and working hard.  (Actually, I think she was quoting Swimmermom on that last part.)  My daughters don't do everything "perfectly" (that's never been our goal), but they know how to work hard and find answers.  They rise to the challenge and are now both doing things that at one time I didn't think they'd ever do.  I never imagined that dd #2 would want to be a writer, and possibly an English teacher someday... the child who had absolutely NO desire to learn how to read at the age of 6, and who used to always say that her favorite subject was "playing". :lol:   I never imagined that dd #1 would decide that she wants to go ahead and pursue a 4-year degree rather than "just" a 2-year degree, and in fact who at one time had no desire to even GO to college... but now she's getting A's in college, finds the Comp 1 class miserably boring and easy (she considered CLEPing it but wanted the experience), and wants something more.   :001_smile: 

 

And one more point that I want to reiterate...  the skills that our kids are NOT good at need the MOST work.  Don't give up and make it easy for them.  Find another way to work on it, if necessary, but keep working on it.  This may be the very area that he/she ends up pursuing at a higher level when they're older (like my dd who was never "good" in her LA skills and didn't care, either, but now wants to be a writer and teach English), but you won't know that unless you're diligent to make them work hard for it.  If they whine and complain and make excuses to get out of it.... then address it as a character issue, address their posture or work surroundings, or whatever you gotta' do.  But PLEASE, please train them to overcome the obstacles!  Even if they never become excellent in that particular skill, they WILL improve and will be proud of having persevered.  That's where my oldest is in math, who absolutely HATED it, never did well, I wasn't good at it so I couldn't help her much, and at one point we decided she just wouldn't "do" Algebra 2 at all.  She did (after we switched to a math curriculum that she could actually understand), and yesterday she took the math placement test at college and is actually looking forward to College Algebra.  She'll never be an engineer, but you know what?  She is very proud of the fact that she didn't give up when she felt like it (and I was going to let her), and I'm proud of her for persevering through the fire. 

 

[Pen]

Thank you! I appreciate this post.

[sagira]

Thanks for that post, Donna. I felt like you were addressing me directly. Great thread resurrection, Hunter.