Math question and embarrassing problem

[dancer67]

My 12 yo daughter "knows" math. To a point. It seems as if she can do it by rote learning though.

 

For example. If I gave her a problem such as 78+8, and told her to do it in her head, she would not be able to. If I explain to her she can do it 80+6 giving you the answer of 86, she gives me the glazed over look.

 

She has NO conceptual understanding of math at all.

 

She is struggling with multi-digit multiplication and Division, therefore fractions have been really hard.

 

She still forgets her multiplication facts at times.

 

Since she is going to be 13 and could be in either 7th or 8th grade come September, I need to remediate this.

 

And to add, I never had ANY conceptual understanding of math either. I was taught by rote arithmetic. So thinking "out of the box" for math, has me struggling as well.

 

I would love to be able to get her to understand the "why's" of math without making her completely frustrated. And for me, the mom, to be able to teach it.

 

And I don't think just doing a workbook is going to cut it. I think she needs to "visually" see it.

 

I know there is MUS, but I am not so sure that is going to remedy the problem. When I see programs like MM/Singapore, I know there is NO way she could do that program. She would be lost.

 

So what to do?

 

(ETA: We are coming from BJU Math)

[EKS]

Have you read Liping Ma's book Knowing and Teaching Elementary Mathematics? It would be a good place to start.

 

Also, I would be sure she really understands place value. MUS does this very well. In fact, when my older son was halfway through Saxon 7/6 he was having some similar problems. I gave him the placement test for MUS and he tested into Beta. So that's where we started. He went through Beta-Zeta in 6 months. We went quickly through the easy parts and slowed down for the parts he had difficulty with. It was expensive but it worked well.

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

I wonder how some of the RightStart math games would help? I have not used RightStart but am going to with my ds's (I just need to get on it) but maybe somebody with more experience could chime in. That was just a quick thought I had.

[LolaT]

I don't have a ton of experience but I would recommend RightStart Math. I picked it because it's heavy on manipulatives and light on worksheets. The use of the abacus helps give them a visual and concrete understanding of numbers. RSM aims to give an understanding of numbers not just at memorizing facts.

[dancer67]

I have been staring...no glaring at rightstart...:glare:

 

But

 

I am not understanding their levels. And I am not exactly sure where to place her.

 

She is very, very good with place value.

 

It looks like their last level, E is a 5th grade program? Then you go into Geometry???? I am not understanding that?? Why would you make a jump from level E, to a (almost) high school level Geometry program? Shouldn't it continue to Pre-Algebra, then Algebra....etc....???

 

If you are not quick on your feet with Multiplication, or doing any kind of conceptual math, have no clue where to put her.

 

And, would NOT want it to look like a "baby" program.

 

Manipulitives are good. (FTR, we tried MUS and we hated it).

 

So, in a nutshell. If I started in RS, where would I start her?

Would I be able to start her in Algebra 1 in two years?(High school, grade 9) If we used RS?

Is RS ONLY an elementary program but you can go into Algebra after completing the series???

 

many thanks.

 

ETA: I have also seem Math on the Level mentioned here. But looks very expensive just for books.

Edited March 13, 2011 by dancer67

[nmoira]

I have not used it, but some in your position have raved about Math on the Level, since it is structured in a way that makes it good for remediation. It might be worth a search.

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

On this page there is a placement questionnaire. I did it really quick (based on what you said) and it looks like she would place in level C

 

 

ETA: After looking at level C and D maybe D would be a better fit. I would look at both of them and see what you think

[MeganW]

For example. If I gave her a problem such as 78+8, and told her to do it in her head, she would not be able to. If I explain to her she can do it 80+6 giving you the answer of 86, she gives me the glazed over look.

 

 

I am a terrible memorizer, so figuring out math tricks was the way I got through school. It is MUCH easier to round the LOWER number. Instead of 78 + 8, I would say 78 + 10 - 2. I know that doesn't help in general, but for this kind of problem, try explaining to her how to change the LOWER number instead of the upper.

[MeganW]

If I were you, I would try to grab a local kid who has just finished public school kindergarten and has an agreeable mom, and ask your daughter to "tutor" him for the summer by teaching him RightStart A. It could be a great summer job! :) Then maybe in the fall she could whip through B and C in preparation for next summer, alongside her own "real" math.

[dancer67]

Thank you for doing that placement. I have heard some not so good things about Level D in Rightstart, why is that?

 

And do people go right through RS up until the Geometry level?

 

And MOTL, that is the other one. I am interested in that. But seems expensive in comparison to RS. MOTL does not include manipulatives like RS does in the price, but MOTL seems to be more flexible.

 

I am a person who needs direction on HOW to teach math so *I* get it to.

 

Sooooooo, decisions .....decisions..............

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

If I were you, I would try to grab a local kid who has just finished public school kindergarten and has an agreeable mom, and ask your daughter to "tutor" him for the summer by teaching him RightStart A. It could be a great summer job! :) Then maybe in the fall she could whip through B and C in preparation for next summer, alongside her own "real" math.

 

 

Thats a good idea! If she could do that through the levels that would really solidify the concepts for her to (I had my now 7th dd do that with my now 3rd grader with a program when my older dd needed help 2 years ago ;)) When they teach it they have to look it over and understand it to a deeper level to explain it to somebody else!

[EKS]

How about Lial's Basic College Mathematics? It is made for people who didn't get arithmetic the first time.

 

I still recommend that you read Liping Ma's book. Also, being very good with place value not only means a student is able to name the places but also that she is able to use the concept of place value to do arithmetic problems. A very good way to practice this is with mental math, and her inability to do mental math likely points to either a glitch in her understanding of place value or a problem with working memory.

 

What I mean about mental arithmetic relying on a good understanding of place value is this. In the example you gave, 78+8, she needs to understand that it is the same as 70+(8+8)=70+16=76. This is extended to problems like 56+31. 50+30=80 and 6+1=7 and 80+7=87. Then try something like 48+39. 40+30=70 and 8+9=17 and 70+17=87.

 

You can do similar things with subtraction, taking numbers apart. For example, 54-27. 54-20=34 and 34-7=27.

 

And with multiplication: 54x7. 50x7=350 and 4x7=28 and 350+28=378.

 

You can see how each of these techniques relies on understanding place value and applying that understanding.

[gardening momma]

Thank you for doing that placement. I have heard some not so good things about Level D in Rightstart, why is that?

Here's a thread about Right Start D. If you start her in any Right Start level higher than B, she'll need to do the Transition Lessons book first.

Edited March 13, 2011 by gardening momma

[dancer67]

Unfortnately, we do not know anyone with a young child she can teach. But that was an excellant idea.

 

Is liping ma book available at the library?

 

Yes, the example that was given about different ways to look at nubers is somthing she cannot grasp. And I have a hard time explaining it to her. We both end up frustrated.

 

I have seen Lials BCM and it is/was one of my choices.

 

Basically what it comes down to is this. I want to be able to teach her the Singapore way without using Singapore(since I d not understand Singapore either) using something scripted, colorful,manipulitives and be able to get her into Algebra in two years.

 

I know, I am probably crazy....lol

 

You have all been so helpful thank you

[ChrisB]

I would pick up RS Level B, which includes an abacus and the card games. You can view the S&S at alabacus.com for each level. Place value and addition up to the thousands is primarily covered in B. It's covered again in C, but at a faster pace for review. I think using the abacus gives great physical reinforcement of the concept and it isn't 'babyish'. GL!

Edited March 13, 2011 by ChrisB

[5LittleMonkeys]

Have you looked at the individual topic levels of MM? My dd didn't understand how to add the way you were talking about either (76+8= 80+4). MM is very good at explaining and drilling this. We used an abacus and manipulatives with the lessons, because she is very visual, and it helped her tremendously. I have her doing the individual topic levels multiplication and division right now and I am amazed at her improvement. I saw no point in placing her into a specific grade level when she only really needed remediation in certain areas. Anyway just a thought.:D

[boscopup]

Is liping ma book available at the library?

 

If your library has access to NetLibrary, you can get the ebook (I just read it online). I have a dinky small town library, but they use NetLibrary for the ebooks and audio mp3s. I was excited to find that book on there! :D

[MeganW]

Unfortnately, we do not know anyone with a young child she can teach. But that was an excellant idea.

 

You aren't, by any wild chance, in Charlotte, NC are you? If so, I have not one but FOUR kiddos she can teach! :)

[kristinannie]

Have you thought about Miquon? It is very good at teaching the why's of math and my 4 year old has made some amazing leaps in a short amount of time. It makes him actually figure out how math works. Plus it is inexpensive and lots of fun. We are using it as a supplement so it might fit the bill for you.

[dancer67]

You aren't, by any wild chance, in Charlotte, NC are you? If so, I have not one but FOUR kiddos she can teach! :)

 

No, but I wish!!!:D

[dancer67]

So, I have some choices now.

 

RS Math

Math on the Level

Lial's

Math Mammoth

Miquon.

 

Based on what I have told everyone so far, what does everyone think?

 

I want to make sure I make the right choice, because I want to follow through with this until we hit Algebra.

 

:glare:

[waa510]

I am obviously nowhere near that level with my dd, but I know that RS Geometry is meant to be for middle school..it is not intended to be a high school course. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but I believe I've seen that info. distributed on the Rightstart yahoo group.

 

I would also agree with maybe doing the individual books of MM, as that may be easier to skip around with than the RS levels.

[ChandlerMom]

Have you looked at the individual topic levels of MM? My dd didn't understand how to add the way you were talking about either (76+8= 80+4). MM is very good at explaining and drilling this. We used an abacus and manipulatives with the lessons, because she is very visual, and it helped her tremendously. I have her doing the individual topic levels multiplication and division right now and I am amazed at her improvement. I saw no point in placing her into a specific grade level when she only really needed remediation in certain areas. Anyway just a thought.:D

 

:iagree:

 

It seems like you have a certain idea of where you want to get TO (algebra 1) and don't like where you ARE, so you are looking for some curriculum that will somehow do the trick.

 

The problem I see is that you need to step back and focus on the NOW. You need to really, really understand what your DD knows and what she doesn't know. You cannot remediate without really truly understanding what is hanging her up. That's step 1. That can be very difficult (bordering on impossible) if you yourself are not particularly "mathy" or good at math concepts. So if what I'm saying rings true, the first thing I'd do is find someone to help you really figure out what DD needs. That could be a mathy hs mom, a ps math teacher you know, a math tutor...know any engineers??? If you want to do it -- well, that's probably why some are recommending you read Liping's book (in other words, develop a better sense of math yourself so you can teach it) -- start by bringing out leggos or toys and talk about "making ten" or acting out math problems so she understands base-10.

 

Once you identify areas, I'd look at something like MM to work thru grades 1-6 on a subject in order and really sit with her and ask her occasionally to explain HOW she is solving the problems. I like MM because it is pretty self-explanatory (small bites at a time). It's good to have goals (like Alg 1), but forget that until you deal with where you are NOW. Take the time now, find what works, then think about a new curriculum. Once she gets traction, you can think about your 4 year plan. :D

 

The good news is that often once kids get that little piece they are missing in concept, everything floods forward quickly and she could be caught up quickly. But you won't know until you really know exactly what she needs to learn and things start clicking for her. So focus on the NOW. Doing a little every day will help (6 or 7 days a week, and for goodness sake do NOT take the whole summer off math! I'd be doing AT LEAST 15min 3x a week on math all summer, reviewing whatever ails her).

 

Best wishes to you and DD!

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

I am feeling a bit dumb at the moment. I have a question on the Logic stage forum about this and here I am not even thinking about this as an option. Please forgive me.

 

Check out Khan academy! Its free and its WONDERFUL! The link I linked for you is for Arithmetic- it goes all the way up from there. Determine exactly what she needs to learn the look for the video. I bet you those will really help and they are free! You can use then in conjunction to any program as far as I can tell!

 

 

I just found this website myself and I believe I just hired them as my kids math teacher :D (atleast my older two- not the boys yet they are to young. We still get to have fun doing math!)

Edited March 13, 2011 by wy_kid_wrangler04

[dancer67]

I have looked closely at Math Mammoth. I really, really like it. I think this is the direction we are going to go in.

 

1st. It is cheaper then the other programs

2nd. It is like Singapore, but explained much better.

3rd. Colorful

4th. I have the option of printing them out right away

5th. Lots to choose from

 

I would like Manipulatives. But not really sure how to integrate them into MM. Any ideas?

 

I also wonder. Would using the topical books be better, OR back up and go through the whole grade level(Like 5A-5B etc)

 

Thanks so much for all of your help!!

[dancer67]

I am feeling a bit dumb at the moment. I have a question on the Logic stage forum about this and here I am not even thinking about this as an option. Please forgive me.

 

Check out Khan academy! Its free and its WONDERFUL! The link I linked for you is for Arithmetic- it goes all the way up from there. Determine exactly what she needs to learn the look for the video. I bet you those will really help and they are free! You can use then in conjunction to any program as far as I can tell!

 

 

I just found this website myself and I believe I just hired them as my kids math teacher :D (atleast my older two- not the boys yet they are to young. We still get to have fun doing math!)

 

 

Thanks!! Off to check this out :lol:

[MeganW]

I have looked closely at Math Mammoth. I really, really like it. I think this is the direction we are going to go in.

 

1st. It is cheaper then the other programs

2nd. It is like Singapore, but explained much better.

3rd. Colorful

4th. I have the option of printing them out right away

5th. Lots to choose from

 

I would like Manipulatives. But not really sure how to integrate them into MM. Any ideas?

 

I also wonder. Would using the topical books be better, OR back up and go through the whole grade level(Like 5A-5B etc)

 

Thanks so much for all of your help!!

 

 

If you go with MM, get it through Homeschool Buyer's Coop before March 31st - major sale!

[wy_kid_wrangler04]

Thanks!! Off to check this out :lol:

 

 

Disclaimer:

 

In my defense I posted that before you posted you made your decision- if this causes you any more decision making- its not my fault :D :lol:

[dancer67]

:iagree:

 

It seems like you have a certain idea of where you want to get TO (algebra 1) and don't like where you ARE, so you are looking for some curriculum that will somehow do the trick.

 

The problem I see is that you need to step back and focus on the NOW. You need to really, really understand what your DD knows and what she doesn't know. You cannot remediate without really truly understanding what is hanging her up. That's step 1. That can be very difficult (bordering on impossible) if you yourself are not particularly "mathy" or good at math concepts. So if what I'm saying rings true, the first thing I'd do is find someone to help you really figure out what DD needs. That could be a mathy hs mom, a ps math teacher you know, a math tutor...know any engineers??? If you want to do it -- well, that's probably why some are recommending you read Liping's book (in other words, develop a better sense of math yourself so you can teach it) -- start by bringing out leggos or toys and talk about "making ten" or acting out math problems so she understands base-10.

 

Once you identify areas, I'd look at something like MM to work thru grades 1-6 on a subject in order and really sit with her and ask her occasionally to explain HOW she is solving the problems. I like MM because it is pretty self-explanatory (small bites at a time). It's good to have goals (like Alg 1), but forget that until you deal with where you are NOW. Take the time now, find what works, then think about a new curriculum. Once she gets traction, you can think about your 4 year plan. :D

 

The good news is that often once kids get that little piece they are missing in concept, everything floods forward quickly and she could be caught up quickly. But you won't know until you really know exactly what she needs to learn and things start clicking for her. So focus on the NOW. Doing a little every day will help (6 or 7 days a week, and for goodness sake do NOT take the whole summer off math! I'd be doing AT LEAST 15min 3x a week on math all summer, reviewing whatever ails her).

 

Best wishes to you and DD!

 

I was just asking about manipulatives, and I was probably posting the same time you were.

 

And you are absolutely right. I have to focus on the problem NOW, rather then think about getting to Algebra.

 

I found Lipping Ma book, so I am going to read through that. And speaking of engineers. My brother has a Ph.D in Electrical Engineering. He LOVED math as a kid. To bad we have not spoken in a very, very long time.(long story)

 

I need to comfortable myself with math. I was scared off by it in school so much that I ended up hating it all together.

 

I am a person who loves, loves to read about Anatomy and Physiology, all about how our body works and why. Guess this is why I always wanted to be a nurse. Got scared off by the Math though. Did horribly on my SAT's.

 

I am hoping I can change that. But I know that everyone has their strengths and weaknesses. For some reason, if I read anything in relation to health, medical terminology etc...it comes so easy to me.

 

Math. Nope.

 

But, there is always hope for me yet!:lol:

[ChandlerMom]

I have looked closely at Math Mammoth. I really, really like it. I think this is the direction we are going to go in.

 

1st. It is cheaper then the other programs

2nd. It is like Singapore, but explained much better.

3rd. Colorful

4th. I have the option of printing them out right away

5th. Lots to choose from

 

I would like Manipulatives. But not really sure how to integrate them into MM. Any ideas?

 

I also wonder. Would using the topical books be better, OR back up and go through the whole grade level(Like 5A-5B etc)

 

Thanks so much for all of your help!!

 

If you don't know where she went off the rails, I'd go with the topical books (blue series) instead of whole grade level. But that may depend on where you think she is.

 

My DDs are younger and "mathy" but one thing that I think really helps is creating touchstones for them -- basic framework for arithmetic problems they can convert any problem into. For example, I had all the "math manipulatives" but what they always want to use is toys. DD came up with "bunny math" -- you can cast any multiplication or division problem in terms of feeding carrots to bunnies ("I have X bunnies and Y carrots...."). Even fractions (chopping up carrots made of set # of leggos) and remainders. Whenever she struggles with a concept in a word problem, I'll hear her reword it in terms of carrots and bunnies. Bunny Math became her touchstone, so if she gets confused she goes to it and usually immediately sees what she needs to do. That's one of the major conceptional tenets of arithmetic -- it's really all the same problem! :lol: [seriously, the whole point of the modern math language (equations) is the ability to write a probelm as a general case and apply know operations (make it look just like every other problem and turn the crank). Up until a few hundred years ago math was written out in full sentences. Modern matrix notion is less than 100 years old!]

 

ETA: anything can work as a manipulative -- make 5 groups of 8 pennies and "make 10s" and see you get 4 piles of 10, for example. This can be a great way to show the "rule of 9s" for multiplying since adding 9 is like adding 10 and subtracting one. I think every kid should see, do, feel that.

Edited March 13, 2011 by ChandlerMom

[Sahamamama]

FWIW, I would try MUS. Years ago, I was like your daughter. Math for me just did not "click." I think that having a very visual element, clear explanations, and hands-on manipulatives is important for people who get that glazed over look when it comes to playing around with numbers.

 

If she doesn't understand WHY you can turn 78 + 8 into 80 + 6, then MUS is the program for her. Please consider it, and no, I don't have any affiliation with the program. But I do think it would work for your daughter. HTH.

[Momling]

I have looked closely at Math Mammoth. I really, really like it. I think this is the direction we are going to go in.

 

1st. It is cheaper then the other programs

2nd. It is like Singapore, but explained much better.

3rd. Colorful

4th. I have the option of printing them out right away

5th. Lots to choose from

 

I would like Manipulatives. But not really sure how to integrate them into MM. Any ideas?

 

I also wonder. Would using the topical books be better, OR back up and go through the whole grade level(Like 5A-5B etc)

 

Thanks so much for all of your help!!

 

I would use the blue (not light blue) topical books if I were you. I'd probably start with Addition and Subtraction 2A and Place Value 1. She'll probably be able to skip some lessons, but I'd back up pretty far because it sounds like her gaps in knowledge start with a basic number sense. I doubt she will find the pages babyish at all.

[Barb_]

I have looked closely at Math Mammoth. I really, really like it. I think this is the direction we are going to go in.

 

1st. It is cheaper then the other programs

2nd. It is like Singapore, but explained much better.

3rd. Colorful

4th. I have the option of printing them out right away

5th. Lots to choose from

 

I would like Manipulatives. But not really sure how to integrate them into MM. Any ideas?

 

I also wonder. Would using the topical books be better, OR back up and go through the whole grade level(Like 5A-5B etc)

 

Thanks so much for all of your help!!

 

I would back up a couple of grade levels and speed through it if you think she'd be game. I did this with an adult student I was tutoring for her GED. We used Singapore, but it really helped her to grasp the easier stuff in a conceptual way before moving on to her current level of Math aptitude (a weak 5th grade level at the time). We were able to get through 3rd grade and 4th grade in just a few months working only 1-2 days a week. This was 18 months ago and now she's nailing Intermediate Algebra :D

 

Barb

[dancer67]

Disclaimer:

 

In my defense I posted that before you posted you made your decision- if this causes you any more decision making- its not my fault :D :lol:

 

 

Ummm, yes it is...........:D:lol:

 

JK...LOL:lol:

 

FWIW........I have not purchased anything so I am still open to confusion:D

[Barb_]

 

FWIW........I have not purchased anything so I am still open to confusion:D

 

:lol: That is just...that's an excellent quote!

[dancer67]

I love that HSB co-op has MM on sale. What timing:D

 

I am pretty sure this is the direction I am going to take. I am going to back her up to the addition and just go forward. Move as quickly as she grasps it, and take our time with the things that make her confused.

 

I am kicking myself in the rear for not starting with this kind of prgram from the beginning. Instead I let my own math fears get in the way.:glare:

[Barb_]

I love that HSB co-op has MM on sale. What timing:D

 

I am pretty sure this is the direction I am going to take. I am going to back her up to the addition and just go forward. Move as quickly as she grasps it, and take our time with the things that make her confused.

 

I am kicking myself in the rear for not starting with this kind of prgram from the beginning. Instead I let my own math fears get in the way.:glare:

 

You aren't behind, just jump in where you are (with a nod to FlyLady). You will feel so great as you reinforce your own Math knowledge and confidence.

[Cleopatra]

I think Mammoth Math is a good choice!

 

My dd is/was somewhat similar to yours. She does remember her times tables and can divide well, in fact she can do most things that are procedural. On the other hand, if you ask her to think outside the "box", it's a train wreck! :confused: I tried a variety of programs, I even tried manipulatives, but the light wasn't going on.

 

It's only when we recently started going through Mammoth Math 5, that she began to see connections. Before MM, she had been able to do her math relatively independently, but when we began using MM, I had to teach almost every question; I believe MM is teaching math in a conceptual way that she was simply not used to. After about 2 weeks of going over addition/subtraction in MM, I had her go back to her original math program, and any exercises that had addition and/or subtraction, she just flew through. I was amazed!

 

So don't give up hope! And please let us all know how it works out!

[In2why]

FWIW, I would try MUS. Years ago, I was like your daughter. Math for me just did not "click." I think that having a very visual element, clear explanations, and hands-on manipulatives is important for people who get that glazed over look when it comes to playing around with numbers.

 

If she doesn't understand WHY you can turn 78 + 8 into 80 + 6, then MUS is the program for her. Please consider it, and no, I don't have any affiliation with the program. But I do think it would work for your daughter. HTH.

 

 

Is this the upper levels of MUS? We are using Beta and we are not seeing mental math in it. Which is one of the reasons I am not thrilled with it. This is our first year using it so perhaps it teaches mental math in the earliest of later levels?

[dancer67]

I will let everyone know how it turns out. Going to place my order for MM this week.

 

 

If you hear any screaming or banging of heads against the wall:banghead:

You will know it's me.:D

 

Thank you SO very much all!!!:grouphug:

[boscopup]

I find it pretty easy to add manipulatives to MM when needed. Usually, there will be pictures of something, like base 10 blocks. Then I know "Hey, I could use base 10 blocks here!" if I need them. :D You could also use an abacus. There are explicit abacus use instructions in 1B of light blue. I don't know where they would be in the blue series (which I agree you'd want to go with for an older child).

 

The RS abacus is very good and is available at Rainbow Resource for $10, if you don't have one already.

[ELaurie]

Professor B Math does an excellent job of teaching the theory of mathematics :001_smile: It's scripted, thorough, and systematic. You can find sample lessons on his website. Edited March 14, 2011 by ELaurie