parenting advice needed tonight

[dorothy]

Background: DD10 is part of a kid's group at church that leads the other kids during praise. Every month, the kid's service has a "virtue" that they work on for the month. This month's virtue is Patience. Today, each kid was given a big, beautiful lollipop to hold onto for the entire month. They were to keep it visible, but not eat it til June in order to concretely practice Patience.

 

When my dh picked up dd after service, she asked dh if she could eat the lollipop. DH did not know about the purpose of the lollipop so he said "yes." Well, dd knew that she was supposed to save it. She knew that DH did not know. After he said yes, she ate it. She ate the lollipop!

 

When I questioned her about it, she said she ate it because DH said she could even though she knew that her group was supposed to hold onto it for a month.

 

DH and I were very upset. We feel that she manipulated and lied through ommission, made excuses rather than admitting her wrongdoing. What's more, she is FURIOUS with us because we said she would have a consequence: She loses the privilege of going to DH's work with him tomorrow (she loves spending the day with him) and she has to fes up to her group leader in a written letter explaining what she did and why she did not follow directions for the group project.

 

DD is insanely mad at us but not repentant.

 

I don't understand how someone does something wrong, they know it is wrong, they refuse to fes up on their own, they are presented with the "evidence" of their wrongdoing and then GET MAD at the people they have behaved badly with. What is that? How do we work on it? This is recurring problem.

 

Please help!

[lynn]

Background: DD10 is part of a kid's group at church that leads the other kids during praise. Every month, the kid's service has a "virtue" that they work on for the month. This month's virtue is Patience. Today, each kid was given a big, beautiful lollipop to hold onto for the entire month. They were to keep it visible, but not eat it til June in order to concretely practice Patience.

 

When my dh picked up dd after service, she asked dh if she could eat the lollipop. DH did not know about the purpose of the lollipop so he said "yes." Well, dd knew that she was supposed to save it. She knew that DH did not know. After he said yes, she ate it. She ate the lollipop!

 

When I questioned her about it, she said she ate it because DH said she could even though she knew that her group was supposed to hold onto it for a month.

 

DH and I were very upset. We feel that she manipulated and lied through ommission, made excuses rather than admitting her wrongdoing. What's more, she is FURIOUS with us because we said she would have a consequence: She loses the privilege of going to DH's work with him tomorrow (she loves spending the day with him) and she has to fes up to her group leader in a written letter explaining what she did and why she did not follow directions for the group project.

 

DD is insanely mad at us but not repentant.

 

I don't understand how someone does something wrong, they know it is wrong, they refuse to fes up on their own, they are presented with the "evidence" of their wrongdoing and then GET MAD at the people they have behaved badly with. What is that? How do we work on it? This is recurring problem.

 

Please help!

I don't know that I would necessarily be upset about it. She's a kid and did a kid thing. It is definately a teaching/learning opportunity. "what is patient?" "Was asking to eat the lollipop when you knew you should have waited being patient?" "Let's try again."

[Barb_]

It seems like the lesson on patience is all mixed up with her punishment for manipulation. The two should probably be separated. I think her needing to tell the group leader what she did was a good idea, but not allowing her to spend the day with her dad is piling on. You are understandably upset because this is a pattern with her, but I'm afraid that you and dh are feeding her outrage because of your own exasperation and possible overreaction. Do you think this is possible?

 

Barb

[Amy in Orlando]

I agree with Barb and Lynn. I tihnk a letter or conversation with her group leader is enough for the "patience" thing. She did a kid thing and is going to have to suffer the consequences 1) in confronting her leader and 2) again at the end of the "patience project" when all the other kids eat their lollipops. (Can I just say I think planting some seeds would have been a better choice for a lesson in patience?)

 

As far as the manipulation, if she is consistently seeing you and dh present a united front and you keep talking to her and calling her out whenever it happens, she'll catch on.

[Melinda in VT]

I don't understand how someone does something wrong, they know it is wrong, they refuse to fes up on their own, they are presented with the "evidence" of their wrongdoing and then GET MAD at the people they have behaved badly with. What is that? How do we work on it? This is recurring problem.

 

In our family, behavior like this (and we have more than one person in our family who struggles with this to one degree or another) comes from a deep need to be (or, since that's not possible, appear) perfect.

 

I can't say we've conquered the problem, but we try to emphasize that all people are flawed and that being flawed does not make you unworthy or unlovable. We try to model owning up to our mistakes and being humble and teachable. We discipline for lying and bad behavior, but we try to keep things in perspective.

 

I have to say, the initial behavior (eating the lollipop) would not have caused much fuss in our household. (Maybe I'm missing something?) I would have told her that she knew she wasn't supposed to eat the lollipop until June, so she shouldn't use the excuse that her dad told her she could to explain her behavior. But other than that, I would let the church leaders handle it as they see fit for the object lesson. (In other words, if there is a reward for the kids who wait until June, she obviously shouldn't get the reward.) Your daughter missed out on a learning opportunity, but I don't see it as something she needs to repent of or apologize to the leader for.

[Melissa in Australia]

I wonder how many kids will have lollipops by the end of the month.???

MelissaL

[Remudamom]

Just my opinion, but I don't think much of that "exercise" in patience. And if one of mine was insanely mad at ME for something SHE did, she'd been sitting on her butt in her room until she could act decently again. Ten is too old for that kind of behavior.

[Danestress]

I guess I am thinking about lent. We often give something up. Voluntary denial. If we fail (which we often do, don't we?) then we learn that we rely on God because we *can not* live up to every demand we place on ourselves or that scripture places on us. That's what's so great about trying. We learn how hard it is, and how greatful we are for God's infinite mercy.

 

It's easy to follow rules if you know there is a draconian punishment. I'm sure next time you daughter might do better, but will it be because she wants to try again to develop a patience that pleases the Lord? Or will it be because she's afraid of the consequence? What if you knew you would break out in hives every time you broke God's law? I bet you would follow it much better, but would you grow in your relationship with him?

 

I say forgive her, tell her God forgives us for our lack of patience, that you are sad she didn't share the challenge with you so that you could have encouraged her as a sister in Christ. But if she is ten. She lacks the wisdom to see the purpose of this exercise. She may not really have a relationship with the Lord (and I say this not because of what she did, but because every child must grow into his or her OWN relationship with the Lord, and this doesn't always happen at 10). So I would not want to make this about rule breaking/lying and consequences.

 

Personally, I wouldn't not take the reward away. I would talk to her about how hard it is to be really honest, how hard it is to be patient, how difficult denial can be, and how incredibly blessed we are to have a Lord who loves us and doesn't hold us to an impossible standard, but was willing to die in order to be reconciled to us, because in our sin, he still loved us.

 

I understand that there was a dishonesty in her actions. But I would tell her that even if she had been totally honest, maybe you should have let her eat the lollipop. Something good would come of that. She would have an experience with free will, guilt, mercy and redemption.

[dorothy]

But the reason DH and I are upset is that DD toys with manipulating the truth on a regular basis and then makes excuses for it.

 

I don't care that she ate a lollipop. We have candy in the house. She can have a lollipop every day. She could have come home and asked for one from the jar. She could have even said to her dad, "they want us to wait a month to eat this but I don't want to participate in it - may I eat it anyway?" But she didn't. Her little sister came home - seperately - and told me about the project. That's when it occured to me to ask DD. And that's when the excuses and placing responsibility on her dad started.

 

Anyway, I hear what you are all saying. We are taking this too seriously and being too harsh. I think I am afraid of this habit and what it can mean later so that is why we are being tough. I will talk to DH about our position on this. Thanks and please post it you have any other advice.

[UnPrairieMuffin]

Your daughter is angry because she's a sinner, and even when sinners are presented with their own mistakes, faults, etc., they often refuse to reason. I think that is absolutely normal behavior for a sinner, it is normal behavior but not acceptable.

 

I would be so much more concerned with the lies and excuses, that is a much more harmful situation than any silly lollipop patience exercise.

 

You need to keep dealing with her until her anger is resolved, I wouldn't let this situation go. You don't need to let the sun go down on your wrath. Just because joy comes in the morning doesn't mean we shouldn't deal with our own issues at night. And guard against your own bitterness.

[Sue G in PA]

Yes, it was very manipulative of her. My dd11 engages in this type of manipulation on occasion. So do my younger children. Dad doesn't know what mom said so we'll ask dad sort of thing. I agree that she should fess up to the group leader. This is a ridiculous lesson in patience. It's more a lesson in self-discipline or will-power if you ask me. I'd let her go w/ dh as planned. Let the punishment fit the crime...one does not have anything to do with the other, KWIM? Trust me...btdt. I get angry (rightfully so) and dole out a great punishment only to realize later that it really didn't "fit" the crime. Dc gets angry (justifiably so) and I have, once again, not gotten to the heart of the matter. :glare: I'm learning. Let her go w/ dh and make her "fess up" to the leader. Talk w/ her about how her little "trick" makes you feel and how dangerous it is to manipulate like that. Then, give her a hug!

[Joanne]

I don't understand how someone does something wrong, they know it is wrong, they refuse to fes up on their own, they are presented with the "evidence" of their wrongdoing and then GET MAD at the people they have behaved badly with. What is that? How do we work on it? This is recurring problem.

 

Wow. I'm surprised at some of the responses in this thread.

 

Patience is a fruit of the Spirit; not of individual 10 year olds set up to fail.

 

Really. In "real life", we aren't given trumped up, manufactured situations in which to "learn patience". Life presents lots of opportunities for us to learn and practice patience.

 

But the part that bothers me is the expectation that a 10 year old can reach within herself and find the ability to delay gratification (a specific kind of patience) but we adults still struggle, daily, with it.

 

Yes, she should fess up and admit she failed the challenge, manipulated and lied. And that should be it.

[Plucky]

I wouldn't have gotten upset at her eating the lollipop to begin with. Keeping the lollipop for a month was an arrangement with her church leader, right? I'd let her face the consequences of her actions naturally. Like another poster said I doubt many kids will have that lollipop in a month much less 2 days.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Background: DD10 is part of a kid's group at church that leads the other kids during praise. Every month, the kid's service has a "virtue" that they work on for the month. This month's virtue is Patience. Today, each kid was given a big, beautiful lollipop to hold onto for the entire month. They were to keep it visible, but not eat it til June in order to concretely practice Patience.

 

When my dh picked up dd after service, she asked dh if she could eat the lollipop. DH did not know about the purpose of the lollipop so he said "yes." Well, dd knew that she was supposed to save it. She knew that DH did not know. After he said yes, she ate it. She ate the lollipop!

 

When I questioned her about it, she said she ate it because DH said she could even though she knew that her group was supposed to hold onto it for a month.

 

DH and I were very upset. We feel that she manipulated and lied through ommission, made excuses rather than admitting her wrongdoing. What's more, she is FURIOUS with us because we said she would have a consequence: She loses the privilege of going to DH's work with him tomorrow (she loves spending the day with him) and she has to fes up to her group leader in a written letter explaining what she did and why she did not follow directions for the group project.

 

DD is insanely mad at us but not repentant.

 

I don't understand how someone does something wrong, they know it is wrong, they refuse to fes up on their own, they are presented with the "evidence" of their wrongdoing and then GET MAD at the people they have behaved badly with. What is that? How do we work on it? This is recurring problem.

 

Please help!

 

Well, it sounds like she got what she wanted but didn't want what she got. To that, if it were my kid, I would say, "Oh well. Too bad. Not my problem." As to blaming dad? I think I'd simply laugh and say, "Riiiight. Dad put that lollipop in your mouth and threatened to ground you for a month if you didn't eat it. Suuuure. I love your imagination, sweetheart. Nice try, though."

 

And I think I might be insanely mad at you, too. And this isn't to say I'm a perfect parent (Bwahahahahahahaha! Let me count the ways I'm not, ok? Let's start with this morning and work our way back eighteen years, shall we? And pull up a chair and go get a snack. This might take awhile.), but I think her reaction to your both being "very upset" with her by being very upset isn't much of a stretch.

 

When I was a kid, I felt continuously backed into corners by my parents. I was terrified of their anger when I did wrong, and so I began to lie to avoid that anger even when what I'd done wasn't "wrong" if I felt it could even possibly be perceived as wrong. Not until I left home and got away from the anger did I stop lying to myself and to other people. No excuse for my lying, don't get me wrong here -- but what provoked the lying was that intense and continual need on the part of my parents for me to be as perfect as possible and their intense anger and lack of mercy when I messed up. Particularly if someone outside the family was going to find out that I messed up, because, they said, it reflected on them and was their shame. If I told a lie, I could do so convincingly and avoid the anger. If I told the truth, I would not only get the anger of the accusation of wrongdoing, but I would feel the wrath of both the immediate punishment and the years of reminders about how I had acted. (My mother still reminds me of childish indiscretions and failings with sighs, tight angry lips, and litanies of "We didn't raise you that way. You broke my heart, you know." I'm talking about things I did when I was ELEVEN. But then, ya'll know I have issues for a reason, right?)

 

Anyway, all this is said not to cast you as a bad parent. I have no stones in my hand. I remember with absolute horror some of the things I've done, and have no illusions that equally bad things can't happen again. This probably doesn't even apply to you at all. I only read a piece of your life here, and I would not presume to cast you in a harsh light because of it. I sure don't want someone to judge me on a slice of life that occurs on a day when I'm furious with some new idiotic thing one of my kids has pulled. But I would ask that you consider a) why you are so angry at her all-too-human lack of perfection and b) what might provoke your child to lie frantically and angrily and not listen to reason.

 

Hang in there.

 

ETA: Don't buy into her blaming by giving it a minute's credence. Let her know that you know what she said is not true, and that you don't care why she did it, and that you hope when she's not a child anymore that she won't behave childishly by blaming other people for her own actions. Let her know that people who grow up and don't lose that particular childish trait turn away friends, alienate family members, and lose jobs simply because they can't say, "I was wrong. I did it. I'm sorry." Tell her that at the very least you had hoped that she was old enough that wouldn't lie to her own self, but that this does not appear to be the case yet. You're disappointed, but you imagine that since she's a pretty good 10 y/o in most regards, that soon she will begin to be grown up enough to be responsible soon.

 

Also, one of the things I've done with my own kids is to model repentance. If I find I need to see more of it from them, I might deliberately "forget" to do something they were expecting but that isn't the end of the world, like pick up ice cream or something when they're expecting it. I will then say, "Oh no. I know you're going to be upset with me, because I really messed up. I forgot to... I am so sorry. It was all my fault. I should have written it down and this wouldn't have happened. Will you forgive me?" And I find there are enough times in my life that I can make sure that my kids hear me say that over and over just in the course of *living* that I rarely have to manufacture a reason to model this. It does make a difference, I've found.

[WTMCassandra]

I have great sympathy for your alarm about the manipulation and blaming others stuff. Great. Sympathy. We are dealing with stuff in our own family from serious dysfunction on DH's side (including DH), and that includes these and other even more distressing behaviors. 'Nuff said.

 

However, I do agree with the posters that there are two separate issues (1) eating the candy and (2) manipulation/blaming. In our household, the emphasis would be on #2.

 

I think that she will encounter built-in natural consequences for eating the candy in the SS class. (I too think this might have been too hard of a test for 10yo, but that water's under the bridge at this point.) I would infer that the teacher will ask each week who still has their candy, and may have a ceremony at the end of the month where the "patient" children get to eat theirs. Anyhoo, I would express sadness that she chose not to participate in this character object lesson and let it go. I would personally not require embarrassing stuff like writing a note to the teacher. The teacher knows that some will succeed and some will fail. That your daughter failed spectacularly and immediately should be an area for you to watch, but it is still within the "parameters" of the teacher's "experiment." I don't think public humiliation will help here.

 

Second, the manipulation/blaming. I would definitely correct for this in the strongest terms, whatever that is in your home. Perhaps I would require her to bless her Dad since he is the one she defamed. I would let Dad decide if she can go to work with him. You deciding not to let her go doesn't seem connected to the offense, but if Dad decides he doesn't really want to put himself out RIGHT AWAY after she just was willing to make him a sacrificial lamb to make herself look innocent, well, that's understandable. If Dad does feel that way, I would tell her honestly but without shaming her. Perhaps you and she could brainstorm ways to earn Dad's trust again.

 

Third, there should be an ongoing consequence for a period of time, particularly since you think this is an ongoing problem. But I believe it should be connected. Perhaps she should lose the privilege of asking one parent ANYTHING in isolation for a period of time--say one month. If she wants to do anything while with parent A, she has to wait until parent B can be asked too to make sure that she is not trying to "put one over" on you. And I wouldn't make that process too easy . . . KWIM? To replay the candy under that scenario, Dad would say, "No, you need to at least wait until we get home until we can get the full story on what happened at church today and I can also speak to your mother and we can come to a unified decision." Then let her wait. I'm just using that example because it's handy--I know it doesn't fit perfectly because there is the complication/distraction of the SS teacher's instruction that was unknown at the time.

 

Also, I would look for the element of blaming in future discipline episodes and deal with it on the spot. I would consider it a high priority in my child training. I would also praise profusely when I saw her take responsibility for her actions.

 

My DD knows that if she comes to me with an issue about her brother, that I will verify with him what happened before rendering a decision, will ask her what she did that might have contributed to the situation, etc. Sometimes if it is unclear who is responsible/at fault I will tell them to solve it themselves in front of me (actually, that is normally what happens by now since we have been working seriously on this for a while). This process will often reveal to me who has stinky heart attitudes (sometimes one person, sometimes both). My DD also knows that if she asks one parent something, the other will ask if the first parent has rendered a decision, and if she reports something that the other parent "said" that sounds suspicious, I will whip out my cell phone and confirm. Or, if my DH is not available, she will have to wait until I reach him and verify it before I will render a decision. There is no doubt in her mind that I will check up what she tells me. I will do it without shaming her, but I will do it.

 

(DS has fewer issues in the area of manipulation/blaming. His main issue is arguing, sigh.)

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

 

Third, there should be an ongoing consequence for a period of time, particularly since you think this is an ongoing problem. But I believe it should be connected. Perhaps she should lose the privilege of asking one parent ANYTHING in isolation for a period of time--say one month. If she wants to do anything while with parent A, she has to wait until parent B can be asked too to make sure that she is not trying to "put one over" on you. And I wouldn't make that process too easy . . . KWIM? To replay the candy under that scenario, Dad would say, "No, you need to at least wait until we get home until we can get the full story on what happened at church today and I can also speak to your mother and we can come to a unified decision." Then let her wait. I'm just using that example because it's handy--I know it doesn't fit perfectly because there is the complication/distraction of the SS teacher's instruction that was unknown at the time.

 

 

 

Wow, that is great. And as an added bonus, it teaches patience. Delayed gratification for a month until the other parent can be consulted every. single. time. Even for something previously simple.

[WTMCassandra]

Wow, that is great. And as an added bonus, it teaches patience. Delayed gratification for a month until the other parent can be consulted every. single. time. Even for something previously simple.

 

*Blush* thanks. Honestly, I hadn't come full circle to realize that it would teach patience. But, hey, what a great bonus!:D

 

I wish that I didn't have as much experience as I do in trying to stamp out the tendency for my DD to manipulate/blame, but if it means it can benefit another struggling parent, that's comforting. And if I succeed with my own DD and break a long family cycle, then it will be the ultimate in "worth it." She's come a long way, but she's still only 11, so I have to stay diligent.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

*Blush* thanks. Honestly, I hadn't come full circle to realize that it would teach patience. But, hey, what a great bonus!:D

 

I wish that I didn't have as much experience as I do in trying to stamp out the tendency for my DD to manipulate/blame, but if it means it can benefit another struggling parent, that's comforting. And if I succeed with my own DD and break a long family cycle, then it will be the ultimate in "worth it." She's come a long way, but she's still only 11, so I have to stay diligent.

 

Do you allow Star Wars (the original old set) in your house? When we were trying to hone this message home -- and yeah, we had to do it, too -- we watched Han Solo say, "It's not my fault!" and I pointed out once that he was immature and reckless, and the reason I could tell was that he might look grown up, but he was not grown up enough to admit he was wrong yet. Not that he didn't have other good qualities, but being a real grownup wasn't one of them.

 

Then we turned that into a running joke -- and I promise I only used it when it was funny, not when it "counted" while a person was in real trouble for not taking responsibility. If I dropped a glass in the kitchen, kids would come running and I would stand there befuddled and howl, "It's not my fault!" And they would laugh. Or if dad them sat on the remote and accidentally turned off the tv in the middle of a video, he would whine, "What?? It's not my fault!" And the big ones 'got" it, eventually, and they stepped up. We've got a long row to hoe with the little one, though. Already I worry about that one.

[WTMCassandra]

No, we don't have the old SW, but I like the spirit in which you incorporated this into your home. I could probably do better at injecting humor--appropriately timed, like yours.

 

I do sometimes respond with an exaggerated "Whoooo, Meeeee?" or "Did *I* do thaaaat?" when I have been caught doing something. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of that old sit-com. I can't remember the name of the show, but it was with that african-american kid with the suspenders, too-short pants, and huge glasses. He used to say that all the time. My children have never seen the show, but that's the mental picture I have when I ham it up. (And having this mama ham it up is rare indeed . . . so those occasions are memorable.)

[summer]

I think you already did the right thing.

 

It sure feels awful when they do not like being parented, doesn't it? But I guess that is why we are here.

 

With my own children, I will add in "if you were the mom and this was your son/daughter doing this, what would you do?" and that works for us..so far. I am sure one day, they will say not the answer I want to hear.