Challenge: Try to talk me out of RS math

[lakotajm]

I was blown away at a speaker session at the Memphis convention by the RightStart Math folks. I was in awe at how they made math so clear! I was like "where have you been all my life?!" So I came away thinking I would be willing to sell half my furniture if I needed to in order to get that curric for my young ones. After further reflection, I realized maybe this convention euphoria is not as conducive to rational thought as I would normally exercise before a purchase, though I am still convinced I need this program. So here is a challenge: If you have used RS and hated it, now is your chance to let the world (or at least the hive) know.

I realize, of course, no curric is right for every kid, but if you felt it had glaring faults, spill it. If it was more like it didn't work for your kid, tell me why.

 

Lakota

[Soror]

I do love RS but it does require prep time and one-on-one time, it is not a program that you can just give to the child and let them do it. I think that would be the big downside to it.

[Poke Salad Annie]

Unfortunately, I did not get the chance to hear that lecture. I saw their booth in the exhibit hall, but it was swamped with people looking at their products.

 

FWIW, I have not used the RS program myself. I do have a copy of the Math Games book, and we have used some of them. From what I've seen and read about here and other places, this is a solid math program.

 

In my opinion, math is not something you want cover by handing a workbook over to a child. That is why the RS way seems very solid. You must spend that time working with the child in order to cement the concepts. Quite frankly, I don't see any other way around it.

 

Again, I don't use the RS program (and certainly don't have any vested interest in the company :D), but if you were very interested after hearing the speaker, and it made sense to you, then go ahead and order. You have my permission. ;)

 

We are using MEP, CSMP, and some vintage stuff. I've been thinking lately of painting our abacus to match the RS one. I see that as just adding more fun to the mix. :)

[Tabrett]

I tried it twice; levels A and B. I love the concept of the program, but here is what made me leave RS.

 

There is very little pencil/paper work. My dc could do the activities with the manipulaitves, but could not translate what she had learned when it was asked to be done on paper. There are end of 9 weeks paper/pencil tests in RS. My dc fail the RS test after doing all the lessons for the 9 weeks.

 

If your dc does not like the abacus or using manipulative, doing the lessons will be a daily struggle. I found out my dc really hates using manipulatives of any kind.

 

Lessons took way too long! I don't remember how long a lesson took, but it was longer than my dc attention span. The lessons probably took longer than average because my dc was not happy doing the hands on activities. My dc has a short attention span and I can't use all of her "good" time on one math lesson. I needed the math lesson to be short.

 

My dc could not look at the abacus and recognize how many there were without counting. It was very, very frustrating. Not allowing my dc to count brought tears.

 

Now with this said, I think my dc has some learning issues. If your dc easily catches onto abstract concepts you probably won't have a problem.

 

I think RS pushes abstract thinking before many dc's brains are developmentally ready.

 

If I started RS B next year when my dc is in 2nd grade, it might work. She might be ready for more abstract concepts, but I can't take that chance.

 

I have kept the abacus and the manipulatives/cards from RS. I still make my dc use the abacus occasionally to demonstrate a new concept. My dc does loves the card games, but I don't think she retains the facts like RS claims. We have been playing Go to the Dump all year and she still doesn't have her making 10's facts down pat. I don't even thinks she understand why we play the game. She just likes card games.

[TracyR]

Okay. So I get confused with posts that want people to try and talk them out of a curriculum.

I think if this is the case you already know you don't or won't use it. So, really, talking people out of things they already know they don't want to use isn't really a challenge.

The challenge is talking people into using something.

[ByGrace3]

Okay. So I get confused with posts that want people to try and talk them out of a curriculum.

I think if this is the case you already know you don't or won't use it. So, really, talking people out of things they already know they don't want to use isn't really a challenge.

The challenge is talking people into using something.

 

I don't think this is it at all. I think when you want to be talked out of something, you believe you want to use something but want to be sure there are no reasons you have yet to think of that will make the program unsuccessful for you . . . Just being sure you have thought of all the cons and still want it.

[mommymilkies]

I do love RS but it does require prep time and one-on-one time, it is not a program that you can just give to the child and let them do it. I think that would be the big downside to it.

 

:iagree: and many people give up on level C. That said, my 6 yo loves it.

[blakereese]

I do love RS but it does require prep time and one-on-one time, it is not a program that you can just give to the child and let them do it. I think that would be the big downside to it.

 

I think in the elementary years you really can't have a program that you just give to the child. There needs to be some one-on-one instruction and explanations. You may use manipulatives, or not...whatever works for you and your DC. But I don't think the early years are the time for an independent workbook approach. Math is too important.

 

That said, I can't help talk you out of RightStart. I am trying to talk myself out of it right now! :lol: I think it would be a perfect fit for my DD, but I just don't want to spend the money and regret it.

 

Which level are you thinking about buying, and for what age? I'm glad I wasn't at a presentation, I'm sure I would have bought it on the spot. :lol:

[txhomemom]

I ended up giving up at level C, but I still like RS Math and the way it teaches. The level C year just takes a LONG time to get through and I guess I did not have the patience. I probably won't do a good job of talking you out of buying it, but here are a few reasons you might want to not buy it:

 

-it is teacher intensive so you have to have the time to teach this curriculum and use the manipulatives, play the games, etc

 

-the abacus is used as a manipulative and some kids might not click with that when explaining math (it does teach place value well however)

 

-review problems might not be enough for some as someone mentioned on this thread earlier, it worked out fine for my dd who did not like an excessive amount of problems on the page but occasionally I would add in other worksheets if she needed more practice

 

There were not that many negatives for me with RS Math and I would actually seriously consider using it again with future children, but I also have to consider the learning style of each child as well...Math Mammoth or something else may end up working better.

 

Some of the positive of RS Math:

-good for kinesthetic learners, lots of hands on math with manipulatives

-good for solidifying mental math

-presents math from many different angles not just rote memorization

-includes geometry quite a bit which may appeal to visual spatial learners

-simple to follow teacher manual

-has high resale value so even though it is pricey it sells very quickly on used homeschooling boards

-spiral bound so you can easily lay the book open

-worksheets have minimal problems which is good for kids that are overwhelmed by excessive problems on the page

[boscopup]

Does your child really like manipulatives? My 6 year old doesn't need them, so RS wouldn't be good for him. He does great with a workbook based program. I am using RS for my 4 year old, which is totally appropriate for him due to his age. I plan to only use A or *maybe* B, but probably just A, and then move to MM. We'll see. Depends on when he's done with A.

[blakereese]

I don't think this is it at all. I think when you want to be talked out of something, you believe you want to use something but want to be sure there are no reasons you have yet to think of that will make the program unsuccessful for you . . . Just being sure you have thought of all the cons and still want it.

 

Yeh, that is how I look at it. At least for me. When I am on the fence about a program I really like to hear from someone who didn't like it. I have probably already read a bunch of posts about how wonderful it is, but I may not have heard about a downside. I just want to have all of the information before I make a decision.

 

And sometimes I think I "want" to be talked out of something just because it is more money out the door. :glare: So even though I know I want to use it, and probably should use, I could do without spending the money, and "want" to be talked out of it. But I don't really want to, iykwim. ;)

[Soror]

I wasn't saying that one-on-one is bad for elementary, obviously, it is what we are using. However, not everyone has the time, patience, ability or desire to spend that much one on one time. Like a pp lessons take us a while, for a full lesson 1 hr is not unusual. I have also downloaded some MathMammoth as well for some practice as it is lite on written work and it has seemed to me that a bit more practice is needed to make sure those concepts transfer from practice to written work, plus I think it is good to be able to look at things from more than one vantage point.

[FairProspects]

Does your child really like manipulatives? My 6 year old doesn't need them, so RS wouldn't be good for him. He does great with a workbook based program.

 

This is exactly why we are switching. Ds is very intuitive about math and would just "click" with a concept and then get incredibly frustrated that he had to slow down and show why with a manipulative that he didn't really understand. He loves MM, and I showed him many Singapore samples and he begged to switch to "the fun math on the computer." I think we will do some kind of combo of MM & Singapore.

[lakotajm]

Ok-I loved this post!Very good example of what kind of info I was looking for. It made me laugh about the kid liking the card games but not getting the math. Gee that sounds familiar.

Thanks

Lakota

[lakotajm]

Okay. So I get confused with posts that want people to try and talk them out of a curriculum.

I think if this is the case you already know you don't or won't use it. So, really, talking people out of things they already know they don't want to use isn't really a challenge.

The challenge is talking people into using something.

Actually, I really like the curric. It is just that I am a hs mom with enough experience (6 years) to know that sometimes I get gung ho and don't stop to think that there may be something I'm overlooking. That is where this kind of post comes in handy. It's just caution from btdt syndrome.

 

Lakota

[lakotajm]

I think in the elementary years you really can't have a program that you just give to the child. There needs to be some one-on-one instruction and explanations. You may use manipulatives, or not...whatever works for you and your DC. But I don't think the early years are the time for an independent workbook approach. Math is too important.

 

That said, I can't help talk you out of RightStart. I am trying to talk myself out of it right now! :lol: I think it would be a perfect fit for my DD, but I just don't want to spend the money and regret it.

 

Which level are you thinking about buying, and for what age? I'm glad I wasn't at a presentation, I'm sure I would have bought it on the spot. :lol:

 

Considering this for my dd6 and dd7. They work at 1st/2nd grade level.

Lakota

[lakotajm]

My girls love games. Manips they are back and forth on liking or needing them. But sometimes they absolutely could not get a concept until I used a manipulative. Like I used pencils grouped into tens and loose as ones to teach place value and adding numbers in the teens, borrowying, carrying. etc. Otherwise my littlest seemed clueless.

Lakota

[mymonkeybug]

We are using MEP, CSMP, and some vintage stuff. I've been thinking lately of painting our abacus to match the RS one. I see that as just adding more fun to the mix. :)

 

I too use vintage stuff. Off topic here, but we love Eva March Tappan books for history.

 

Anyhow...back to reading this thread as I am too interested in shelling out a months Verizon/Comcast/Electric bill for it myself.:tongue_smilie:

[Kidlit]

We're finishing our second year of loving RS here. I didn't go to the session in Memphis since we're already sold on it, but I loved the response of the rep (Dr. Cotter's daughter, as it turned out) to my question about being a tad bit uncomfortable with the lack of volumes of worksheets. She said to keep a game log (a list of the games you play) and tell yourself that those ARE your worksheets.

 

My dd really gets math, or at least she seems to, and I credit RS for that.

Edited March 8, 2011 by hopeistheword
typo

[2squared]

For full disclosure, we are in love with RS.

 

From reading many threads about RS, I think that RS is often stopped b/c lessons take too long to complete. If you are a person who needs to complete an entire lesson in one session, you are likely to become frustrated with RS. RS, in my opinion, isn't a program in which your goal should be to complete a lesson every day or a level every year. We truly go at our pace - slowing down when needed and speeding up when ready. We set a timer for our lessons and stop when our math time is up. My 6yo easily completes more than a lesson a day in Level B, but my current 8yo often took more than one day for a lesson.

 

In Level B, our lessons are 20 minutes long (a la C. Mason). We play the games when they are scheduled in the books, we complete the fact worksheets as needed, and we don't do extra fact drills. This approach has worked fabulously for our family.

[Satori]

I totally love RightStart as well. Our lessons took 20 minutes and that seemed to cover an entire lesson for us. So in our particular situation, I don't think the lessons took too overly long. My daughter would often want to go OVER the 20 minutes I allotted for math. I really think the program is totally worth it, and I encourage you to go with your gut feeling and go with it. :) The games and activities totally reinforced what we needed to know, I saw no need for extra worksheets.

 

Now, the negatives. The lessons took a lot out of me. I never really knew what exactly we were going to cover until I sat down to do math each day. I'm super glad we got through A and half of B, but I decided to set RightStart aside for a bit and use something a little easier to teach, but still involves me with teaching math. I'll be coming back to finish RS B at least, but need a little break.

[CourtneyChn]

Sorry, I can't talk you out of it. We're just finishing up level A and my dd and I both love it. We all love playing the games too.

[FairProspects]

I have to add that the non-traditional scope and sequence can be a real con. Not introducing subtraction until 2nd grade can cause problems in a variety of situations. This is just one example (and could probably be remedied with supplementation) but I have seen others complain about various aspects of the non-traditional S & S throughout the program.

[PeterPan]

Lakota, I used RS A-D, had E (sold it), still have G. I guarantee you I could talk you into it or out of it. What would be much more helpful to you is if you told about your math situation, what type of child you have, about your time commitment and dynamic working with him, and then we see how RS fits that. Who was the rep, Kathleen? She's an amazing woman. When I repped for them, she told me straight up the goal was NOT just to sell a person on the curriculum. The goal was to help them find their good fit. So find the good fit.

 

RS assumes you have 50 minutes a day to teach your kid. You do a lesson for 20-30 minutes, breaking it up over days if necessary, and then play the games. If you don't have that time to give, you have a problem. Not an irresolvable problem, but a problem.

 

RS uses a lot of auditory (not ideal for the visual learner obviously), and the visual input tends to be of the type that involves visual PROCESSING, not just visual input for learning. Notice how carefully I put that. When they go to memorize the multiplication facts, they'll do a lot of skip counting (auditory), play games from the Card Games book where you order cards into fact families (again very auditory), and then have you put the skip counting on the board to look for patterns (uses visual processing, thinking through what they are taking in visually). What there are NOT are the visual inputs, just plain old constant input, that help visual learners. My very visual dd does much better with color on the pages. She needs to SEE the facts a lot and in lots of ways. Even the abacus itself requires visual processing to be a helpful visual tool; the facts have to be processed and concluded, not just taken in visually. So IF you have a dc who does not visualize well or who struggles with visual processing (I'm using these terms very carefully here, we went on to do many months of vision therapy), then the inputs may not click. If you have a dc for whom auditory is not a good method of learning, again you're spending time teaching with the wrong modality. NO color on the pages, no persistent visual input (without processing) to build visual memory. I ended up finally giving my dd a multiplication table, and it helped IMMENSELY.

 

For some kids understanding leads to owning the knowledge, and for others it DOESN'T. We've debated this here, and I'm just saying kids will differ. If your dc is of the type for whom details (math facts, spelling, etc.) go through like a seive, you're going to have to take special care with RS. It can be very, very good for these kids, BUT you have to take extra care to make sure you're getting the fact practice in a way that clicks for them. The games couldn't make things stick for my dd. Again, she had problems. What I'm saying is we're not the only ones, and you have to know *your* dc. I'll probably use RS again with my ds, but I'll know what I'm looking for and when to bring in additional tools, when what RS provides isn't enough. RS is 2nd to none conceptually, but concepts aren't the only thing that matter in math.

 

RS has little to offer what Cathy Duffy calls the Sociable Sue. In level A we play a handshake game with stuffed animals. The games are in that vein. But really, that's about it. My dd came to life when I got her the BJU math (which we went to after RS). It had stories, colorful pages, codes and fun things to solve. Oh my what fun! Some kids really, really need that. Again, know the kid. It's not a slam of RS to explain this, just a difference. For some kids these little things are indeed VERY important.

 

Well I won't belabor it and I don't want to bore you. RS gave my dd a fabulous foundation in math, and we have fond memories as well as bad. It really, really depends on the child and what they need, your situation, and what fits both of you best. What are you using for math right now, and how is that going? Remember, doing the RS graded levels are not your only option. If you describe your full situation and what you want to accomplish, we can tell you ways to use RS materials to get there. The RS Activities for the ALAbacus is the original form of the program and a fabulous supplement to your current curriculum. The Games Kit can be a lot of fun and includes an abacus with instructions for basic use. You can upgrade the travel abacus to a standard for a small fee. If you get the abacus, I highly recommend the base 10 picture cards and place value cards along with it. If you are close to studying fractions, you can't go wrong with their fractions puzzle.

 

You have lots of options for using RS but making it fit your kids, rather than the other way around. Just figure out what is working for you now or isn't and what you need. Also do the placement tests on their site to get a sense of what you're looking at for levels.

Edited March 9, 2011 by OhElizabeth

[SnMomof7]

I haven't used it. I looked, then I ran away. Why? I am NOT organized enough to keep track of all those manipulatives....and with so many little people running around who'd put designs on them...I'd need a locked chest!!! And I almost always have a baby in arms, so my hands aren't too free to manage all the 'gear'.

[lakotajm]

My dd7 sounds like the best fit for the program. She can conceptualize facts without alot of visuals. She is not as dependent on games and visuals as my dd6. She naturally loves math and finds it cool when it reveals its logic-the Eureka! factor.

 

DD6 needs a little more repitition with visuals and manipulatives and games and such before she gets a concept. RS may work, but maybe with supplementation and stretching the lessons out.

 

Thank you, everyone. I think I am going to go for it, with these caveats in mind. I will go at their pace, not feel I have to do 1 lesson every day, etc. and perhaps supplement. Right now, we use a lot of stuff I have just happened to collect from friends, yard sales, etc. plus a couple of fun computer games type programs. I'll keep some of these for supplementation. Thanks, hive!

 

Lakota

[joyfulhomeschooler]

I agree with many of the others.

We LOVED RS we did level B.

Here comes the BUT ;-)

It was too teacher intesive for us. I like the idea of sitting down with my child and the one on one... but it just wasn't a fit for us. Math ended up getting put on the back burner many days because there was too much going on to sit and do a half hour to hour lesson uniterrupted with my son. I suppose if you only had one or maybe two children that you were schooling and didn't have any babies/toddlers it may not be this way.. and I am sure there are those moms who did it even then. But it didn't work for us because of this. I even bought level C and am getting ready to get rid of it now because of this. We are going to go with either Singapore or Horizons instead. Because then I know math will get done. But I am glad we got the basics out of B.

[siloam]

My dc could not look at the abacus and recognize how many there were without counting. It was very, very frustrating. Not allowing my dc to count brought tears.

 

Now with this said, I think my dc has some learning issues. If your dc easily catches onto abstract concepts you probably won't have a problem.

 

I think RS pushes abstract thinking before many dc's brains are developmentally ready.

 

If I started RS B next year when my dc is in 2nd grade, it might work. She might be ready for more abstract concepts, but I can't take that chance.

Actually I think RS is very good for kids with LD's, but it does require modification. For example RS really doesn't have enough worksheets for an, even with the games, at least not for a dyscalculic. They need to do something so much that they don't have to think, they just do. That eliminates the processing problems most days. Dyscalculic students often can do math well in their head, but have a problem putting it on paper, but at some point they need lots of practice putting it on paper. That said, this can be done after RS with a program like Lial's BCM.

 

Also I took me more time teaching traditional math programs than it does RS. I was having to sit with my oldest two for weeks and work through every problem with them for them to get the processes. With RS it was like a lightbulb went off and they just got it.

 

I agree with OhElizabeth. It depends on the child, what their needs are and where the teacher is at. I find RS easy to modify, but I have the same issues as my kids so I know what is going on. If I didn't I might just be really frustrated.

 

Heather