Can we talk about hard versus easy and why it matters?

[Jonibee]

Smart kids. Hard courses. Long study days. Equals educated. Educated is good -- makes for happy adults who can think, want to think and do think, right?

 

Opposite scenario: Smart kids. Easy courses. Finish quick. Fill time with well, other stuff, whatever that happens to be. Does it matter?

 

As to which side of the fence I'm on . . . well, to me it matters. A lot. Everyone I know -- everyone IRL -- says I'm the overacheiver -- the pusher. I actually make my kids DO the work.

 

Getting into college is easy for a homeschooler. Really. Why do I push my kids so hard to really get educated from their materials?

 

I'm on kids 4, 5 and 6. Two finished college and 1 in college now. I'm pushing just as hard -- maybe harder, but I see that college was so easy for my older ones. They say they could have started in 10th grade (not necessarily socially).

 

Someone tell me again that what I'm doing is the right thing -- the important thing. Really, it's the education that matters, right? Not just getting my kid into college. Not just checking off the box that it was done. Right? :confused:

[regentrude]

Smart kids. Hard courses. Long study days. Equals educated. Educated is good -- makes for happy adults who can think, want to think and do think, right?

 

Opposite scenario: Smart kids. Easy courses. Finish quick. Fill time with well, other stuff, whatever that happens to be. Does it matter?

 

It does matter. You could end up with a smart kid who was never challenged in high school and is, for the first time in his life, exposed to hard material in college. This may- to somebody who breezed through school with easy A's- translate into a feeling of "being stupid" and "being a failure".

How do I know this? Because I was there. My high school was not necessarily easy, but I never had to work. Languages, calculus, sciences - no problem. Going to class and doing a tiny bit of homework was sufficient. Then, in my first semester at the university, I was feeling completely overwhelmed. It though I was too dumb. I had not developed any study habits, had no idea what you do when material does not make sense - I though not getting it upon first hearing must mean I am not smart enough. It took me several painful months to learn what I wish I had learned in high school: how to study.

THIS is something I absolutely do not want for my kids.

 

(ETA: And I see students like this every single semester. They are smart. They had all A's in high school. They did not have to lift a finger to make that happen. They are stunned and overwhelmed and failing in college because they have not the slightest idea what to do if it is NOT easy.)

 

And then, of course, it is fun to learn stuff. It is fun to know stuff. It provides the student with a better way to judge her interests and decide what she wants to do with her life.

And a rigorous high school eduction may mean more choices in college, maybe the chance to take more electives instead of required intro courses.

 

Of course, it needs balance. Rigorous does not have to mean burn out and all nighters - that would seem wrong to me. But learning to actually work and not just coast seems healthy to me.

[Amy in TX]

It took me several painful months to learn what I wish I had learned in high school: how to study.

 

 

This was my experience. I spent my first semester learning, from other students, how to take effective notes, how to prepare and know that I was ready for a math test, how and when to get help. These things should be learned *before* college.

[Teachin'Mine]

I struggled with this question for a few months this winter. I wasn't sure whether it mattered or not. All I saw was how much more fun others were having when they didn't have to spend time doing school work. I thought that maybe they were right in their approach. But now I'm seeing the bigger picture of opportunities that they will not have. They have awesome abilities, but without the learning and education, they won't have many avenues open to them. Coasting isn't enough. I'm reminded of the saying I grew up with - anything worth doing is worth doing well. It's still true today.

[FaithManor]

We challenge the kids here; we've got ones that learn easily so I admit to being spoiled. Our philosophy is to train for challenging work in college, to prepare for any major - even the really intense ones - and to produce a future worker that gets results. My dad is a small businessman and has had to deal with a plethora of students from the local high that don't know how to work. Seriously lazy kids who were handed grades for no effort and they expect to be handed a paycheck for no effort too! So, we don't slack off here.

 

I have one homeschool friend who does a pretty good job too, though not nearly as much with the sciences or electives as we do. But her kids are going to be just fine because they have a work and study ethic and had the bar set high enough that they will be used to higher expectations. The downside is that she and I are the homeschoolers in our community (there are ten families) that educate with an end goal behind. Most do not, by their own admission, teach more than the 3 R's, do not complete a year's curriculum in a year, and just figure that somehow high school will magically take care of itself. Needless to say, we don't have any kind of homeschool group to which we belong.

 

The other day one of the other families asked ds what he was studying...he replied that we had just finished a chapter on medieval history in which we discussed the medieval religious mind and how this thinking led to the crusades, that we were just finishing Beowulf as a read aloud and would be moving on to Bede and the Song of Roland, algebra, map work, diagramming complex sentences, writing a persuasive argument giving three examples, designing the backboard for his model rocketry team's presentation on the 18th, unit on Newton's Laws, Latin, finishing "The Thinking Toolbox", and learning bit-mapping in Visual Basic Programming...project due March 11th by the end of the day.

 

Well, I was pretty certain we'd have to take them to the hospital to have their jaw bones put back into place. Unfortunately, they were able to do it themselves and then went on to lecture me about being a slave driver, stealing his childhood, etc. It was completely inappropriate and ds got quite defensive of me (which was in and of itself, very cute and quite chivalrous), and let them know that his life was just fine and that most days he didn't begin until 9:00 a.m. and was done by 2:00 p.m. unless he felt like programming longer!

 

So, I hear you. I don't express my opinions to anyone who schedules more lightly for their children. That's there business and they need to do what is best for their younglings. But, sometimes, I sure do get tired of the attitude some people take with me because of the educational standards we have in our home. Keep on keeping on! Your doing great!

 

Faith

[KAR120C]

We're overachievers too.

 

My reasoning is that as much as DS can do some things easily (some things really easily!) there are plenty of things he finds difficult. Languages for instance - those don't magically stick to his brain the way math and science do. In fact anything that takes memorization.... But when he does the work it pays off.

 

If I let him do only what's easy, there's a whole lot he would never do. But when I require effort, he enjoys the rewards of his work. He wants to be an engineer, and I think that's a very reasonable goal for him... I think it's likely that no one in engineering school is going to care that he knows Latin (for instance). But the effort he puts into learning Latin now will hopefully prepare him for whatever part of engineering requires that kind of work. He'll know he can do it, he won't panic, and he'll know that facing something that doesn't come easily is worth the effort.

[wapiti]

One of my favorite quotes on the importance of challenge:

 

When [children] are not given opportunities to work at their own level and pace, they settle for less than their best. They learn to slide by without stretching themselves. Patterns of underachievement are subtle and cumulative; they become harder to overcome with each year. Students who attain A’s on their papers with no effort are not prepared to take more challenging classes in high school and college. When work is too easy, self-confidence to attempt difficult tasks is steadily eroded.

(from here http://www.gifteddevelopment.com/About_GDC/whytest.htm. I believe this applies to all kids, not just gifted ones. Bold is mine.)

[FloridaLisa]

I'm curious why you are second-guessing yourself at this point. Is it because of what some of your friends are saying? Or are your kids pushing back? Have your older kids told you whether they felt it was worth it? Or maybe just because it's February? :tongue_smilie:

 

I sat down with my oldest when he was home last and got some really good insight into what he felt we did right and what he would have done differently.

 

Lisa

[Tarreymere]

Smart kids. Hard courses. Long study days. Equals educated. Educated is good -- makes for happy adults who can think, want to think and do think, right?

 

 

 

I am no big supporter of the current trend to consider college attendance as a norm precisely because I thought college was easy and not worth the expense. During my time in a public high school I felt as though I was being spoon fed nuggets of pre-sanitized and pre-digested carefully selected bits of information to regurgitate for the exams. College was pretty much the same with a little more reading and a little more writing. It was not demanding in the least.

 

I think it is ridiculous to consider the possession of a degree indicative of being educated. I think you are on the right track, creating adults who not only can think but want to think and will continue to do the hard work of thinking and reading and studying through out their lives. If you continue to insist your children think and do the hard work, your children will be educated, really educated, whether they have a degree or not.

[Sunshine State Sue]

Please ignore me if you like. I have a 9th grader and so have no authority.

 

My first thought is "You are preparing your children for better colleges than they are attending".

 

I worked as a teaching assistant in Probability & Statistics when I was a graduate student many moons ago. One semester a PHD student taught the class. He was interviewing at small colleges in the Midwest. He told me one day that he now understood why companies wanted to hire students from our university. The textbook that the sophomores used was the textbook that the graduate students used at these other schools he was interviewing at.

 

I am also the overachiever. My son is not. Education is extremely important to me. It's not so important to my son. As the overachiever, I have to do my best. It sure feels like a waste of time lately.

 

I don't know how I'm coming across. I hope I'm coming across sympathetic. I hear your struggle.

 

:grouphug:

[Sunshine State Sue]

Weighing these two arguments, ...

Yikes. Reported.

[Jeanne in MN]

Smart kids. Hard courses. Long study days. Equals educated. Educated is good -- makes for happy adults who can think, want to think and do think, right?

 

Opposite scenario: Smart kids. Easy courses. Finish quick. Fill time with well, other stuff, whatever that happens to be. Does it matter?

 

As to which side of the fence I'm on . . . well, to me it matters. A lot. Everyone I know -- everyone IRL -- says I'm the overacheiver -- the pusher. I actually make my kids DO the work.

 

Getting into college is easy for a homeschooler. Really. Why do I push my kids so hard to really get educated from their materials?

 

I'm on kids 4, 5 and 6. Two finished college and 1 in college now. I'm pushing just as hard -- maybe harder, but I see that college was so easy for my older ones. They say they could have started in 10th grade (not necessarily socially).

 

Someone tell me again that what I'm doing is the right thing -- the important thing. Really, it's the education that matters, right? Not just getting my kid into college. Not just checking off the box that it was done. Right? :confused:

 

I think there is tremendous value in doing something and doing it well. Seeing your acheivements. Knowing what you are capable of. Knowing you can tackle anything tough that comes your way because you know you've done tough things. Feeling pride in a job well done. Learning discipline. All of it has so much value. I personally see great merit in what you are doing.

[Jonibee]

Thank you all for your answers. Really. I question not because of any feedback from my kids -- seriously, my older ones thank me and my younger ones still trust me. I believe in education.

 

I question because I'm alone here, as I think Faith pointed out in her world, and I get tired of defending my choices to people. I question because it's February.

 

I also question because I see how incredibly easy college has been for my older kids. And yes, Sue, I think it is this: "You are preparing your children for better colleges than they are attending".

 

But as a mom who only completed a technical college program that has provided me with a good income, and a self-employed, self-built husband who has a successful business with a GED education, who could have known? Who would have ever thought that I could facilitate an education for my kids for a better college than the local university? Who would have ever thought?

 

I know I've read these statistics of how it's true, and my family is a part of that statistic that says it can be done with less than a college education. But I find myself amazed by it. ALL my real life friends do so. much. less. They judge and sometimes I listen.

 

With my next 3 kids (mine are all spaced out a few years), I'm planning for an AP class or 3, a couple of CLEPs, maybe a college class (it's an hour drive, so maybe not). Why? Because they can. To provide more opportunities in college. They will apply to better colleges than the older ones did. Why? Because they can. The path seems right to push them to where they can go, because I know the more educated I am, the happier and more confident I feel about it. It IS fun to know things. It is great to have more choices.

 

So thanks for the encouragement today. Really. I've printed out this thread to remind me on those questioning days that yes, it really is worth it to focus on the education THIS much. Easy might be their goal, but it is not my goal, and there is fruit in doing the hard thing and succeeding. Sometimes I forget that.

[Osmosis Mom]

 

My first thought is "You are preparing your children for better colleges than they are attending".

:grouphug:

 

 

I actually totally agree with this statement. Colleges are as varied as its student body (apart from Harvard where the rumour goes that once you get in it is a free sailing).

 

And not trying to be snarky at all. It is just a reality.

[Mom0012]

Nevermind, I misread your post.

[creekland]

To add to all of the above, our family was watching a show on either Discovery or the Science Channel that dealt with the human brain. If I had known exactly how much I would get out of that video, I'd have written down the title and other important info, but I didn't, so sorry...

 

However, one of the main points it brought out is that the teenaged brain has grown more than at any time since the toddler years. All of those new neurons are there, but unused. As teens learn more - must be different things - more neurons are turned on and used. An analogy was made to a skyscraper with several rooms, all dark. As new and different info was learned, lights were turned on and rooms were used. The learning had to be DIFFERENT things, not just highly into one thing (an example of piano was used). One thing highly develops one room, but not the rest. Different things are "stored" in different rooms.

 

Then, when one reaches their early 20's, all those neurons not used DIE and are gone. The chances to learn new things so easily is gone. Older folks can learn - some new neurons appear, but it takes a lot more effort than it does in the teen years. Usually older folks need to learn new things using the same "rooms" turned on before. If the older folks have many "rooms" learning new things is easier than if they have few. It was speculated that this is why some adults have an easier time learning and some do not.

 

Then a projection was made concerning Alzheimers - the idea being that more neurons in the brain would make it easier to retain memory longer if Alzheimers is an issue. More research was being done on that.

 

The teen years have great potential to set up life as an adult in many ways. Brain capability is one. Use it or lose it. I want to give my boys the best advantage possible. After watching that show, they want it too. ;) A variety is good (not just academic, but tools, sports, games - it all opens different rooms just like different topics in academics).

[Rhonda in TX]

It does matter. You could end up with a smart kid who was never challenged in high school and is, for the first time in his life, exposed to hard material in college. This may- to somebody who breezed through school with easy A's- translate into a feeling of "being stupid" and "being a failure".

How do I know this? Because I was there. My high school was not necessarily easy, but I never had to work. Languages, calculus, sciences - no problem. Going to class and doing a tiny bit of homework was sufficient. Then, in my first semester at the university, I was feeling completely overwhelmed. It though I was too dumb. I had not developed any study habits, had no idea what you do when material does not make sense - I though not getting it upon first hearing must mean I am not smart enough. It took me several painful months to learn what I wish I had learned in high school: how to study.

THIS is something I absolutely do not want for my kids.

 

Yep. This was me. High school was so easy, even with advanced classes. Do my homework during lunch or other classes. Study the class before a test. Make A's. Graduate in the top 10. Get a great academic scholarship to my college of choice. Then college hits and I'm completely overwhelmed.

 

Your way is better. :)

[Rhonda in TX]

Wow! I'm going to have to keep a lookout for that show. That sounds fascinating.

[creekland]

Wow! I'm going to have to keep a lookout for that show. That sounds fascinating.

 

It was a fascinating show that our family discussed quite a bit both immediately afterward and many times since. My boys no longer argue with me that they don't want to learn about something. In fact, they are more eager to learn new things themselves (even things they don't like).

[FaithManor]

Creekland, was that a netflix documentary? I'd love to watch it.

 

What Creekland says, confirms what I learned years ago in a neurologicl/brain development and reading seminar I took in which teachers were trained to use specific types of music and movement to fascilitate the the growth of the corpus collosum in the brain. The corpus collosum is the connective tissue between the hemispheres of the brain which coordinates the communication between and cooperation of the two sides. It is or can be jam packed with neurons if the child is exposed to the right kinds of learning as a youngster and will play out later in mega maturity in the brain if that corpus collosum is thick. MRI studies done by Harvard Med and John Hopkins show that corpus collosums are largest in kids who learn to play a music instrument well or even sing but learn to read music fluently, or in kids who pursue such scientific pursuits as engineering, wood working, electronics, serious lab science pursuits, etc. the kinds of activities that lend themselves to both practical physical learning and academic work all at the same time. It forces both sides of the brain to work together and in turn, activates those neurons which in turn, stimulates growth.

 

The interesting thing is that sports was found in the studies to only contribute to physical coordination and physical prowess but not to any kind of significant neuron growth. Team sports especially, but there were some caveats to this which included martial arts - which is individualistic and somewhat almost academic, gymnastics, and figure skating. Hmmmm....it would have been really interesting if the researchers had done more to determine what it is about these activities that produce the same results as music and science. I'll see if I can find my syllabus from that seminar and post some of the studies. I don't know where it is. I took the class about eight years ago and we've moved since then. It's possible that I was crazy enough to ditch the syllabus in my thinning out for the move. I hope not. It was interesting stuff.

 

Anyway, I guess that my point is that if we pursue excellence, no matter what level of achievement our children manage, the pursuit in and of itself is going to shape them so that their horizons aren't limited. If we set the bar lower, if they achieve that bar, they are limited in what they can do in the future without catch up work, and if they don't manage the lower expectations, then I would fear that we've set them up for a life time of wishing they could have learned this or done that, but now can't or don't feel they have the skills to go ahead, be adventurous, and try it. I'd rather be on the dream making end of the equation and not the dream squashing. So much also depends on the approach. There are many reasons to lighten up, health, family problems, etc. but, one has to have a plan for how that child's brain will continue to mature even if the work needs to relax a bit for a time.

 

Sad to say, I've met many parents who are on the dream squashing end of things. Literally, they've already, even at young ages, pigeon holed their kids into whatever they want for them: to take over the family farm, business, work in the local industry, etc. not that any of it is bad, it's not and I don't mean to make it sound like I look down on that, but since they've made that decision for them, it is as if they deliberately set them up for failure so they won't leave mom and dad. That's pretty harsh, but we do have some homeschool families in the area who are actually quite vocal about deliberately sabotaging, educationally, their children's chances of doing anything that mom and dad have not pre-prescribed as their vocational choice. It kind of makes my brain tic a bit.

 

Faith

[Jenny in Florida]

Someone tell me again that what I'm doing is the right thing -- the important thing. Really, it's the education that matters, right? Not just getting my kid into college. Not just checking off the box that it was done. Right? :confused:

 

I'll be really radical and suggest that, for some kids, education and learning how to learn are significantly more important than getting into college.

 

For example, my daughter homeschooled from the beginning. While the materials we chose didn't necessarily scream "rigorous," we were very intentional about taking schoolwork seriously and sticking to high standards. I remember sitting with a friend in a bookstore cafe while I was planning out the following academic year. My friend (who is a college professor, by the way) looked at the stack of books and asked gently whether I wasn't worried that my daughter was doing so much? She wasn't worried about my daughter burning out, but did express concern that "by the time she gets to college she'll be bored." Apparently, the local state university was teaching some of the same titles I had in that stack for my 11 year old.

 

I pshawed and went back to my planning.

 

The following year, when my daughter was 12, she went into a residential, early-entrance college program. And, you know what?

 

She's bored. By the end of her freshman year, she was acknowledging that she learned so much more at home than she was learning in her college classes.

 

The work has never been challenging, and she has now decided she hates school and can't wait to be done. (Fortunately, she's graduating in May.)

 

One of the things that is getting her through this last year is a hobby: She's planning her own, personalized post-graduate year of study. She is doing research and making book lists. I'm acquring the books for her and sending them to her, where she is putting them in order and adding up pages and planning her own curriculum.

 

In her case, college has been just a box to check. But it won't stop her from getting a great education.

[Gwen in VA]

My third child may not go to college -- by his choice. (Parents are not totally on board with this plan, but we're making our peace with it.)

 

But we are still working on providing him with a GREAT education.

 

1) If he doesn't go to college, this will be the last time when his focus is mainly on academics. If he doesn't study this or that now, he may not ever!

 

2) Eduction opens doors. Education trains the mind. Education shapes the person he will become. So he is still doing AP courses, taking SAT2's, and being challenged academically.

 

After graduation, instead of taking that knowledge and those learning skills to a college campus, he may take them to a work environment. But he, and the sphere of the world that he influences, will be better off because of his knowledge and his aptitude in "learning how to learn."

[wapiti]

To add to all of the above, our family was watching a show on either Discovery or the Science Channel that dealt with the human brain. If I had known exactly how much I would get out of that video, I'd have written down the title and other important info, but I didn't, so sorry...

 

However, one of the main points it brought out is that the teenaged brain has grown more than at any time since the toddler years. All of those new neurons are there, but unused. As teens learn more - must be different things - more neurons are turned on and used. An analogy was made to a skyscraper with several rooms, all dark. As new and different info was learned, lights were turned on and rooms were used. The learning had to be DIFFERENT things, not just highly into one thing (an example of piano was used). One thing highly develops one room, but not the rest. Different things are "stored" in different rooms.

 

Then, when one reaches their early 20's, all those neurons not used DIE and are gone. The chances to learn new things so easily is gone. Older folks can learn - some new neurons appear, but it takes a lot more effort than it does in the teen years. Usually older folks need to learn new things using the same "rooms" turned on before. If the older folks have many "rooms" learning new things is easier than if they have few. It was speculated that this is why some adults have an easier time learning and some do not.

 

Then a projection was made concerning Alzheimers - the idea being that more neurons in the brain would make it easier to retain memory longer if Alzheimers is an issue. More research was being done on that.

 

The teen years have great potential to set up life as an adult in many ways. Brain capability is one. Use it or lose it. I want to give my boys the best advantage possible. After watching that show, they want it too. ;) A variety is good (not just academic, but tools, sports, games - it all opens different rooms just like different topics in academics).

 

This is fascinating! Thank you!!

[Julie in MN]

and then went on to lecture me about being a slave driver, stealing his childhood, etc. It was completely inappropriate and ds got quite defensive of me

 

If this is the kind of thing that got the OP to thinking, then I would not give it any weight. I'm on my 3rd teen and I've had way too many teens try to tell me how to parent -- whether my kids were homeschooled or public schooled. It just comes with the territory of having a lot of teens in your house. I tend to have a short, lively discussion about different perspectives, and then put a kibosh on it all by saying that it's my responsibility to parent my children and theirs to parent their own some day.

 

 

If you want to think thru the risks of pushing, I'd say from my point of view there are concerns to be thought through.

 

(1) I've known of some children who crashed and burned, hated education, hated their parents. Doesn't seem like your child(ren) are there at all, but it does happen. Often it's the oldest, and then the second manages to be the opposite.

 

(2) I've seen some kids with a superiority complex :) while I've seen other kids who are quite poorly educated who work better on teams and know how to work very hard based on things other than education (housework, ill mother, etc). Sounds like your child is getting along fine with lots of peers, so again probably not a worry for you, but it does happen.

 

(3) Some kids just aren't created to be academes. It's kinda like the family I knew many years back whose parents were phy ed teachers, kids were all athletes, but an academe just didn't fit in. The parents seemed sure that if they just pushed harder, the athlete in anyone would come out. It can be just the opposite in an academic family, where the non-academic child is looked down upon. It sounds like the OP is very in tune with the child, so again probably not a concern there, but something to keep in the back of the mind.

 

 

Julie

Edited March 1, 2011 by Julie in MN

[posybuddy]

To add to all of the above, our family was watching a show on either Discovery or the Science Channel that dealt with the human brain. If I had known exactly how much I would get out of that video, I'd have written down the title and other important info, but I didn't, so sorry...

 

However, one of the main points it brought out is that the teenaged brain has grown more than at any time since the toddler years. All of those new neurons are there, but unused. As teens learn more - must be different things - more neurons are turned on and used. An analogy was made to a skyscraper with several rooms, all dark. As new and different info was learned, lights were turned on and rooms were used. The learning had to be DIFFERENT things, not just highly into one thing (an example of piano was used). One thing highly develops one room, but not the rest. Different things are "stored" in different rooms.

 

Then, when one reaches their early 20's, all those neurons not used DIE and are gone. The chances to learn new things so easily is gone. Older folks can learn - some new neurons appear, but it takes a lot more effort than it does in the teen years. Usually older folks need to learn new things using the same "rooms" turned on before. If the older folks have many "rooms" learning new things is easier than if they have few. It was speculated that this is why some adults have an easier time learning and some do not.

 

Then a projection was made concerning Alzheimers - the idea being that more neurons in the brain would make it easier to retain memory longer if Alzheimers is an issue. More research was being done on that.

 

The teen years have great potential to set up life as an adult in many ways. Brain capability is one. Use it or lose it. I want to give my boys the best advantage possible. After watching that show, they want it too. ;) A variety is good (not just academic, but tools, sports, games - it all opens different rooms just like different topics in academics).

 

We would also be really interested in the name of that video, if you find it again. It sounds fascinating - and what a terrific reinforcement for your boys that they now want this for themselves!

[Angel]

Smart kids. Hard courses. Long study days. Equals educated. Educated is good -- makes for happy adults who can think, want to think and do think, right?

 

I disagree. Hard courses and long study days do not an educated mind make.

 

Opposite scenario: Smart kids. Easy courses. Finish quick. Fill time with well, other stuff, whatever that happens to be. Does it matter?

 

Other stuff does matter. Dd is smart, has easier courses and sometimes finishes quick. My dd fills her "other stuff" time with music practice, writing, photography, and photo editing. This "stuff" expands her mind and allows her to think and use her brain in ways not required by formal study. It is just as important, IMHO. The world needs not only those who can keep up technologically with the world but those who can make it a more beautiful, engaging place to live.

 

 

 

But of course, I don't know that I can have an educated answer. I was a smart kid with easy courses who finished her work quick (graduated 10th in her class) and did not go on to college (though I was accepted to the college of choice). I did not take hard courses nor did I spend long days studying. Therefore, by your equation, I must be uneducated, unhappy, and can't think :tongue_smilie:

 

Seriously, many beautiful and productive citizens of the world don't have a college degree. If you aspire to that for your children, well and good, but that is not the standard for an educated person. ;)

[Stacy in NJ]

How about doing your best and pushing them to do their best because that is valuable in and of itself - outside of whether or not it provides them with a superior education? Whether my kid is an academic high achiever, average, or below average, in our house work ethic matters, doing our best matters. Period.

 

What working hard means differs greatly among individuals, so total hour count or materials used is less important then how the brain was stretched, imo.

[Jonibee]

How about doing your best and pushing them to do their best because that is valuable in and of itself - outside of whether or not it provides them with a superior education? Whether my kid is an academic high achiever, average, or below average, in our house work ethic matters, doing our best matters. Period.

 

What working hard means differs greatly among individuals, so total hour count or materials used is less important then how the brain was stretched, imo.

 

Yes, I agree with this. But I tend to sputter when well-meaning friends think my materials are too hard -- too much -- as, why read 15 classic books every year when 2 in all of high school is enough. Or why do Advanced Math when Algebra 1 is enough, because hey, look at me, I turned out fine.

 

I do not know anyone in real life whose student has taken an AP test or a CLEP test. College classes, yes, but as I said, my kids found college classes here to be about 8-9th grade level of difficulty. As John Taylor Gatto said, he could help any average 12-year old get through college.

 

I saw my older kids learn bad habits of coasting and no effort required to get straight A's, Dean's list. They were happy, but I was sort of disappointed that it was so easy for them. They all graduated with Honors but had not a single teacher who pushed them to do more -- study hard -- do something outside of just Acing the class. Teachers were very happy to have my students, in the engineering classes and chemistry classes as well as statistics and ethics. My kids were oddities -- a real treat to have in class. And I am not necessarily saying I am unhappy with that. I am still somewhat shocked by it, actually.

 

The difficulty I find in homeschooling to a student's "best" is defining the requirement to be achieved. I say, Advanced Math is the next course, you're still in high school, so you'll start that book. You'll be done when you finish it. People I know say, oh, that's far enough, so we dropped the math requirement. Or they purposely stretch a book for 2 or 3 years just because they can, as opposed to -- finish the book just because you can. Essays? Well, I teach that class to highschoolers, and ummmm, well, it's slightly embarrassing. Many kids go all year without reading a book.

 

In response to questions, no my goal for my kids is not college in itself. That's part of my question. My goal is education. In my opinion, adding to education is the job of homeschool all the way until graduation -- not just stopping somewhere along the line of early high school and caving in to a teen's natural desire to be lazy and self-indulgent with spending inordinate amounts of time doing nothing and just giving up the requirements. I never caved in to my own desire to give up on the education part until the time requirement was over. Time does not equal education. Education equals education. I like to be reminded that this is the real deal and that I'm not making this up.

 

I see there are many old threads on this topic maybe with a different name. At least I am in the right place to find some people who are agreeing with me, that accomplishing something difficult is worthy in itself, and this week I really need that! ;)

[memphispeg]

I think the gift that kids and parents get through the process of homeschooling is a mutual understanding of where the child's passion and talents lie. To see this may mean pushing and working hard, through those days when everything seems to be a fog.... Also to know that sometimes you have to do what you don't enjoy and what doesn't come easy to be able to achieve a certain goal (which should be the actualization of the "dream" (or at least a formulation of what the dream is)). So, I push hard but, I try to get feedback and give encouragement that it is all worth it.

[Jonibee]

But of course, I don't know that I can have an educated answer. I was a smart kid with easy courses who finished her work quick (graduated 10th in her class) and did not go on to college (though I was accepted to the college of choice). I did not take hard courses nor did I spend long days studying. Therefore, by your equation, I must be uneducated, unhappy, and can't think :tongue_smilie:

;)

 

I did not and would not say that college is necessary to be educated. What my personal oft-repeating self debate involves is that I choose difficult coursework for my kids. You have to admit that there are easier choices for English grade 9 versus more difficult choices for the same "homeschool class requirement." As a parent, I make the requirement. My kids often see what other kids do for their credit requirements, and frankly, sometimes I think it is embarrassing how little a parent chooses to have their student do. (She finished 4 chapters in the algebra book, but it was June, so we called it done.) etc, etc. She finished Little Women this year and that's a classic, so I'm giving her credit for American Lit. (I am not making this up!! This is with NO additional "English" work of any kind.)

 

If a student is in public high school (as many of us were), we had no choice, nor did our parents, over the requirements of the courses that we took. The fact that we Aced them with little effort (I was one of these as well -- Algebra 2, cut class Monday-Thursday every week for a whole year -- A+ because I handed in all the homework and Aced the tests.) I would not compare that experience to what I require as a homeschool parent. And if my kid was Acing Algebra, great. I would not add to their course load. But I still make them do a "whole textbook" for their credit.

 

And also, I am not speaking to special needs students. If I begin the journey in grade 1 with high expectations for my kids and they meet those expectations, and then get to high school with the ability to work hard and do hard, well, then I have reaped what I sowed way back then when we regularly had requirements of real achievement.

 

But . . . when we see those kids who don't read a book all year but they've got quite an X-box collection or whatever . . . Well, sometimes it's hard to keep my head on straight and just take a deep breath and walk away, saying, yes, I'm doing the right thing. Yes, I'm doing the right thing. Yes, . . .

[Susan C.]

I've been where you are, why are you doing physics? Why precalculus? Well, because we feel we should. But, now ds is at college, and we know we could have done less. When it took several days to get one math assignment, it was a clue I missed that it wasn't his strong point. BUT he would have never even gotten the chance to do the subjects we did at home because for his creative/liberal arts bent, they just move too fast at school. I've got one more, and I have relaxed a bit. I feel that you should mix easy and hard, moving fast through something, and lingering. It is not good to push, push, push. It does something to them and it isn't good.

[Jonibee]

I feel that you should mix easy and hard, moving fast through something, and lingering. It is not good to push, push, push. It does something to them and it isn't good.

 

Well, burst my bubble big time. It is my fear that I will have regrets.

 

It's not like I don't talk to my kids and just nag at them all day. We talk about why doing difficult things is important -- and they can see the wisdom in that.

 

Would you be willing to explain why you think this is true? --- that it does something to them and it isn't good?

[justamouse]

I pushed so hard they burnt out, spiraled out of control, then crashed and burned.

 

I'm not one for pushing hard. Now I'm relaxed and my kids are thriving above and beyond what I ever expected.

 

The difference is that our kids take it in stride and seem (as far as you've told us) excel.

 

So why fix what ain't broken?

[Jonibee]

I'm thinking my reaction to the thought that pushing kids to excel does something *bad* to them, . . . well, that's a thought that I just cannot agree with.

 

After 16 years or so of homeschooling now, I am aware of the signs of crash and burn. It happens once in awhile, I think, no matter what. Either the student or me. Or serious sickness, or we move, or something else. That's a different issue entirely.

 

I am talking about the general design of homeschool -- is there a difference -- a real, tangible difference -- in having a homeschool atmosphere that uses difficult materials (my kids are happy with this) as opposed to taking the easy route and doing the minimum. I have to believe that there is.

 

Maybe my dd takes 6 months to get through 4 chapters of chemistry -- but she keeps going until the book is done. You would call this wrong? Pushing? Causing something bad to happen in her psyche?

 

And I've graduated 3 already who have gone on to college. College was easy for them, but is that because my homeshool requirements were "too hard" or "too much"? Or did they learn to work hard at home, and then found that the college requirement was just totally doable for them? Is that an impossible thought? To get good grades in college and not find it unbearably difficult -- should I now lower my expectations so that college is harder - a real struggle for my next three kids? That would be nonsense, yes?

 

If my goals were the same as some people I really, truly know in real life, my kids have attained THOSE goals at perhaps grade 7. No, I am not kidding. When they say to me, why do we work so hard -- well, as I said I believe in education. For its own sake. But I would say that obviously, they and I would have a serious disagreement about what education is.

 

Please do not assume that my kids have no hobbies, or that they "do school" for 10 hours a day. I am just comparing, say Sonlight upper core for English/History with a billion books to read and talk about, with reading Little Women for "American Lit" and reading Abeka grade 8 history for U.S. History (with absolutely no added assignments). There's a difference in the parent's expectation, is there not?

 

I would still be interested in hearing how and why high expectations and more difficult materials could/would do bad things to my kids.

[regentrude]

I would still be interested in hearing how and why high expectations and more difficult materials could/would do bad things to my kids.

 

I can imagine a situation where the expectations are so high that it sets the kids up for failure. If, despite hard work and perseverance, they simply can not meet the goal a parent has set to them, then, yes, I can see this causing harm.

I believe, however, that an observant parent would be able to notice this before it happens and set realistic attainable goal for her children. In a homeschool, we are in the lucky situation that we CAN tailor the goals to the child.

 

I want my children to work hard, and I definitely use a curriculum that other people may consider too rigorous - but I see that they can do it easily and are not working at 100% of their ability. So why should we settle for less? I see a big difference between striving for excellence and heading for burn out.

Our motto is: work hard, play hard. DD works hard at her 5 hours of academics - and then she spends all afternoon with her horses, or at choir. I see this as more beneficial than ten hours of mediocre busy work. THAT, in turn, can also cause harm: by killing the love for learning.

[Angel]

I did not and would not say that college is necessary to be educated. What my personal oft-repeating self debate involves is that I choose difficult coursework for my kids. You have to admit that there are easier choices for English grade 9 versus more difficult choices for the same "homeschool class requirement." As a parent, I make the requirement. My kids often see what other kids do for their credit requirements, and frankly, sometimes I think it is embarrassing how little a parent chooses to have their student do. (She finished 4 chapters in the algebra book, but it was June, so we called it done.) etc, etc. She finished Little Women this year and that's a classic, so I'm giving her credit for American Lit. (I am not making this up!! This is with NO additional "English" work of any kind.)

 

If a student is in public high school (as many of us were), we had no choice, nor did our parents, over the requirements of the courses that we took. The fact that we Aced them with little effort (I was one of these as well -- Algebra 2, cut class Monday-Thursday every week for a whole year -- A+ because I handed in all the homework and Aced the tests.) I would not compare that experience to what I require as a homeschool parent. And if my kid was Acing Algebra, great. I would not add to their course load. But I still make them do a "whole textbook" for their credit.

 

And also, I am not speaking to special needs students. If I begin the journey in grade 1 with high expectations for my kids and they meet those expectations, and then get to high school with the ability to work hard and do hard, well, then I have reaped what I sowed way back then when we regularly had requirements of real achievement.

 

But . . . when we see those kids who don't read a book all year but they've got quite an X-box collection or whatever . . . Well, sometimes it's hard to keep my head on straight and just take a deep breath and walk away, saying, yes, I'm doing the right thing. Yes, I'm doing the right thing. Yes, . . .

 

Yes, my answer did mention college, but maybe I should have left that part out. It was your equation

 

Smart kids. Hard courses. Long study days. Equals educated. Educated is good -- makes for happy adults who can think, want to think and do think, right?

 

that I took exception with. ;) Again, I just don't agree.

 

You said that this really matters to you. I think there is your answer to yourself :D If it is important to you then it doesn't matter what the rest of us think.

 

That's said, however, I know I look at a few of my IRL friends and wonder why they feel the need to push so hard. (I know they are looking at me and wondering how in the world can I be so relaxed :lol:) We truly have such differing philosophies. I know one of dd's friends has limited time to get together because she is spending hours and hours on a difficult course load this year. Another has limited time because of cc classes. It is frustrating to me when my dd wants to get together and be a teenager but her friends are too busy being adults. But that is a whole other topic :glare:

 

I will agree that they are many different options for what English 9 or any other subject might consists of. You said it is embarrassing to see how little some parents require of their students. More often than not, you would be embarrassed for me :001_smile: Some of dd's classes would be easy to you and I plan to give her full high school credit for it. Others, like our Jane Austen Lit Study, are quite detailed. I am more concerned about what the output of the material is, not the material itself. If she has learned and retained, I count that as a success regardless of the level. But then we've had that discussion here before too :D

 

I am not so much relaxed that if my children were never to pick up a book and only played X-Box that that would be ok ;) I have made it clear to my dd that one of the reason's for a "lighter" load is for her to have to opportunity to pursue so many of the other things that are important to her, not to spend all day on Skype or a message board. Her music, writing, photography, or photo editing may lead her to her career. In fact, it more than likely will. A heavy school load would not leave this specific child with the brain power to pursue these other goals. To us, those other goals ARE educational goals. She has to search out resources to pursue and practice these. Isn't that education? Just in a different form from Hard courses. Long study days.

 

I will say that I do think those IRL friends like saying that their 14yo is in college classes and excelling or that their son is graduating from college at 19 or that their dd is doing Algebra II, Geometry, and Chem all in one year. Honestly, to me, it just comes across as an elitist. Another way of saying "our choices are better than yours." I know that they don't mean it to come across that way, but it does. Maybe that is why I spend so much time asking them why they are pushing so hard. Is it good for the child or a great indication of success for the parent?

 

I guess that the bottom line is, if hard courses and long study days equals success to you. Great.

 

Around my home easier courses (I won't say easy because they are not all easy for her) and finishing quickly with time to fill with the other stuff equals success to us. Her education is not inferior just because it is different.

:001_smile:

[regentrude]

I will say that I do think those IRL friends like saying that their 14yo is in college classes and excelling or that their son is graduating from college at 19 or that their dd is doing Algebra II, Geometry, and Chem all in one year. Honestly, to me, it just comes across as an elitist. Another way of saying "our choices are better than yours." I know that they don't mean it to come across that way, but it does. Maybe that is why I spend so much time asking them why they are pushing so hard. Is it good for the child or a great indication of success for the parent?

 

 

Why do you automatically assume the parents are pushing? Can you imagine that a CHILD herself loves learning, doing higher math, taking college classes? That for the child, this is fun and she thrives on it? That she begs for more rigorous courses?

My DD happens to be taking a college class at 13 - not because we are elitist, but because she wants to, can easily do it and it is the easiest way for us to provide her the opportunity to learn this material at the level she is capable of.

That does not make our choices better than yours - but you telling me that children who do these things "are too busy being adults" is quite judgmental. They are still kids. They just enjoy different things.

And a good parent listens to her children's needs. So, if hard academics is one of the things my child craves, I am providing it to her to make her happy. Just like you are providing YOUR child time for her creative work - because it makes HER happy.

[justamouse]

I'm thinking my reaction to the thought that pushing kids to excel does something *bad* to them, . . . well, that's a thought that I just cannot agree with.

 

After 16 years or so of homeschooling now, I am aware of the signs of crash and burn.

 

 

If your kids are still in school, then you don't know what crash and burn is.

 

Crash and burn is giving you no choice but to put them back into PS in 10th grade and then signing themselves out of school when they are 18 and never looking back.

 

That is crash and burn.

 

And, as relaxed as I am, my dd 16 (10th) is starting college next year.

Edited March 1, 2011 by justamouse

[Angel]

Why do you automatically assume the parents are pushing? Can you imagine that a CHILD herself loves learning, doing higher math, taking college classes? That for the child, this is fun and she thrives on it? That she begs for more rigorous courses?

My DD happens to be taking a college class at 13 - not because we are elitist, but because she wants to, can easily do it and it is the easiest way for us to provide her the opportunity to learn this material at the level she is capable of.

That does not make our choices better than yours - but you telling me that children who do these things "are too busy being adults" is quite judgmental. They are still kids. They just enjoy different things.

And a good parent listens to her children's needs. So, if hard academics is one of the things my child craves, I am providing it to her to make her happy. Just like you are providing YOUR child time for her creative work - because it makes HER happy.

 

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be judgmental, and I am heading out the door so I can't reply in full. I know there are kids who love to learn and thrive on a rigorous schedule. Mine loves to learn to, she just thrives on learning a different way. I'm just trying to say that hard academics doesn't equal better education. I sound judgmental, yes, but even your way of saying it implies that your way is educational because it is hard academics, my way is just "creative work." All of that creative work is educational just as much as your hard academics. I believe that. That's all I'm saying.

 

Again, I am sorry that I was offensive. Truly. In my case, I'm not sure that each of these children enjoy the rigorous schedule as much as they want to live up to what their mama talks them up to be. And when they are so busy being rigorous that they miss out on being kids, I do think that is a problem. Not that every child's rigorous education does that, but this is what we are running into with those close to us. That's probably why I came across so harsh. It's kind of close to home.

 

I gotta run. I hope that clears it up a little. :001_smile:

[Ester Maria]

hey, look at me, I turned out fine.

This is one of the most absurd arguments I was confronted with in various types of discussions (IRL too). It doesn't state anything: many people "turn out fine" from all kinds of backgrounds, including people who rise from abject poverty, people who were raised in abusive homes or were neglected all kinds of educational opportunities and opportunities for a normal emotional growth... Yet, yes, some of them "turned out fine". For some of them, some truly bad things were even, actually, triggers to change the situation for themselves. Does it mean that those things were not bad?

Do people who "turned out fine" without a meaningful, substantial and academically challenging education "prove" that such an education is "not really needed" because, well, there are recorded cases of people "turning out fine" even without it? No.

 

I do think that teens, particularly older teens, need time and need to grow in many directions, not only academically. There is a line a sensible parent should not cross when it comes to academics, even with very intelligent and capable children.

However, in my experience, that line is much, MUCH further than most people set it. Resulting underchallenged is a lot more real potential danger than resulting overchallenged, especially in societies with grade inflation, overall too easy academic "success" and crazy modern pedagogy.

 

The crisis of education is fundametally an aspect of a moral crisis of the society on the whole.

To "get away" with things and allow others to "get away" is so easy, the path of least resistence. No conflict. No hurt feelings. No painful growing from the experience of failing. No nothing. A piece of paper, thank you, good bye. Schools and universities have largely become diplomifici. So easy, so wonderfully easy.

Now, not giving a grade you cannot honestly support, not holding yourself to the level of "acing" a test after an afternoon of studying, studying for something more than a piece of paper... is the hard option which complicates your life significantly. It's not a smooth process. But in the end, it's a growth - in all aspects.

 

Of course, there is the extreme of hard too. The extreme which sinks into heavy formalismwhich is a purpose for itself, outside of any meaningful framework. It's a death of the soul not any less grave than the "easy A" extreme, and one needs to take care not to get there. Once there, a crisis can be as acute as the one in the "easy A" extreme, though it may manifest itself differently, in extreme burnout that's very hard to get up from.

 

It's hard to pinpoint where exactly the balance lies, which may as well depend on each individual case, but with time, and knowing intuitively your kids, it's very possible to provide a hard, challenging, actual education without killing the spirit of the young person in question - on the countrary, using the rigor of that education to "fortify" the spirit as well, to give it stronger wings.

 

Also note that the rigor isn't synonimous with "pushing". "Pushing" is what you do to a student outside of that mindset because he lacks internal motivation and needs to feel the accomplishment of doing hard things. But kids brought up inside that mindset largely "push" themselves - and learn a fine skill of balancing themselves and knowing how hard to do it, as well as when just to decide that something is good enough - the whole point is to reach autonomy and take a full control and responsibility over one's own life, in this case over the academic aspect.

[Ester Maria]

Angel... What constitutes "an education" is a freakin' difficult question to answer. An education, in a broad sense, is the whole of life, life in its entirety, and I don't think anyone here would suggest that there is no educational dimension to our DC's non-academic interests. There is education in travel, in sports, in arts, in spending time with babies, in cooking, in everything.

 

However, I do believe we can narrow our focus and speak about formal education, the "bookish part", without it automatically meaning that we're somehow "discrediting" other forms of learning, non-academic ways of experiencing the world and so forth. We aren't. But that's not the very focus of discussion, from what I've noticed in the OP and subsequent posts: we're talking the formal part here, we're taking one segment of our DC's lives and discuss the options we have for organizing that segment. Of course that in any family's life that segment will be in relation to other segments of life and may differ because of that and other specific goals the family has and the child needs, but I don't see anything inherently elitist in suggesting that there are objectively harder and lighter ways of dealing with that segment, that sometimes we can compare, in cases of intellectually similar kids, what different approaches can result in. Or that many kids respond extremely well to a very academically challenging schedule. Or that it doesn't prevent them from "being kids".

[Stacy in NJ]

While I agree with a great deal of what you say here, I'm going to play devil's advocate. When kids spend and many hours, days, years studying physics and advanced math there are things they are not doing with their time. Now, if the alternative time use was the Xbox, probably advanced math would be the better choice, IMO. But, what if their interests and abilities take them in a different but meaningful direction? I know some pretty interesting and interested homeschooled kids who did not attempt higher level classes but have nonetheless achieved some really neat stuff.

 

I believe I can understand how frustrating it must be to be doing a really good job with your kiddos and still be questioned about your process and goals, but do you want them to just accept that this is what you do, or do you want them to acknowledge that you're doing a superior job? Are you looking for simple acceptance as a homeschooler doing the best for your kiddos, or are you looking for accolades for their and your achievement? Because if it's the former, I understand, but if it's the latter, you might want to re-think your own judgementalism.

[Brindee]

I have always tried to encourage my children to work their hardest. We've often gone the extra mile to thoroughly research something, when it's not called for, and do extra reports, extra mapwork, and make sure things are understood. We have lively family discussions on topics and help each other learn. I've loved homeschooling the way we have, it's been a positive, rich and rewarding time for our whole family!

 

My dd is 13 and finishing up 9th grade in mid-May. I've had people tell me I'm pushing her by "making" her do high school work at that age. That how could I do that, she'll be so young when she goes away to college, etc. Well, for one thing, she won't go away to college at 16 or 17, she'll take classes here. For another, she'd done enough work that 8th grade would've been redundant. I would've called it that, but she BEGGED me to be in 9th! I went along with it as long as she could do the work well. She's done VERY well! She's read extra for Biology and worked to understand the concepts and loves her MFW AHL work!

 

But there's one hang-up. She's struggling with math. She hit a wall 3 years ago, and I'm trying to figure out how to get her past that. She's only now doing TT Algebra 1. I've been told that TT isn't really Algebra, that is inferior to many of the other programs, and that I'm compromising by not having my dd do a more rigorous math! My dd is working very hard on it, but is still struggling with the TT. She's making definite progress, and is beginning to feel a bit more confident. That's been my goal with maths for her, so this is a good thing for us! I am NOT compromising. I'm trying to find something that will work for her, and since she's visual and wanted something computer-based, she is appreciating the TT Algebra 1.

 

So, am I pushing or am I compromising? :tongue_smilie: Just with my dd I've gotten both viewpoints. Though we're doing what we feel is best for her, it's been criticized. My dd is NOT AoPS material. That doesn't mean we don't have high expectations and goals! My dd is thriving with all the other 9th grade materials. That does not mean I'm pushing her! :001_smile:

 

We have differing children and differing viewpoints, and neither way should be considered better or worse as long as we are doing our best to do what's best! :001_smile:

[Jenny in Florida]

I will say that I do think those IRL friends like saying that their 14yo is in college classes and excelling or that their son is graduating from college at 19 or that their dd is doing Algebra II, Geometry, and Chem all in one year. Honestly, to me, it just comes across as an elitist. Another way of saying "our choices are better than yours." I know that they don't mean it to come across that way, but it does. Maybe that is why I spend so much time asking them why they are pushing so hard. Is it good for the child or a great indication of success for the parent?

 

See, I was with you for a while when you were talking about lightening the academic load so your daughter has time to pursue her passions. In some ways, I'm planning this route for my son. However . . .

 

Why do you automatically assume the parents are pushing? Can you imagine that a CHILD herself loves learning, doing higher math, taking college classes? That for the child, this is fun and she thrives on it? That she begs for more rigorous courses?

 

I have to thank regentrude for getting there first.

 

My daughter began college full time at 12. It was her choice, and we tried for a while to encourage her to put it off at least a year. She was adamant that it was time, and we could see she was wilting at home. So, we agreed.

 

She is now 16 and will be graduating in May. The road hasn't been smooth nor the experience perfect, but it has been valuable.

 

I don't tell you this to sound "elitist," because if that were true I'd never talk about my son. He's almost 13 and hasn't even started a full-time high school schedule yet, which I guess would make me feel like a failure if super-early college were actually something I "pushed" for my own sake.

 

The truth is, though, that I'm extremely proud of both of my kids. My daughter took the path that was right for her, and my son is doing things his own, equally valid way.

 

One way doesn't have to be wrong just so another can be right.

[Teachin'Mine]

While I agree with a great deal of what you say here, I'm going to play devil's advocate. When kids spend and many hours, days, years studying physics and advanced math there are things they are not doing with their time. Now, if the alternative time use was the Xbox, probably advanced math would be the better choice, IMO. But, what if their interests and abilities take them in a different but meaningful direction? I know some pretty interesting and interested homeschooled kids who did not attempt higher level classes but have nonetheless achieved some really neat stuff.

 

I believe I can understand how frustrating it must be to be doing a really good job with your kiddos and still be questioned about your process and goals, but do you want them to just accept that this is what you do, or do you want them to acknowledge that you're doing a superior job? Are you looking for simple acceptance as a homeschooler doing the best for your kiddos, or are you looking for accolades for their and your achievement? Because if it's the former, I understand, but if it's the latter, you might want to re-think your own judgementalism.

 

Stacy what you're not taking into account is that for many of these kids the math takes about the same amount of time as it would kids their own age to do their grade level math. So it's not replacing anything else in life other than math for math and physics for science. :)

 

You have to allow kids to progress as they're able otherwise that's unfair to them. They have a right to learn too. It's probably the exception that these kids are pushed too hard, or pushed at all for that matter. As Regentrude said, they consider the hard stuff fun and the easy stuff boring.

 

Just throwing in my two cents. :tongue_smilie:

[Angel]

 

The truth is, though, that I'm extremely proud of both of my kids. My daughter took the path that was right for her, and my son is doing things his own, equally valid way.

 

One way doesn't have to be wrong just so another can be right.

 

Yes!

 

Ah, but you see that it is an equally valid way! That was my whole point of posting to this thread in the first place.

 

The OP seemed to be saying that there wasn't another equally valid way.

Smart kids. Hard courses. Long study days. Equals educated. Educated is good -- makes for happy adults who can think, want to think and do think, right?

That's where I disagreed and still do.

 

Yes, as Ester Maria said, what constitutes as an education is difficult to answer. I know this. I think all we have to do is look around at all the differing homeschooling philosophies on this board to see that. But I still maintain that the OP's bolded statement is in error.

 

Yes, I know that some kids thrive on more work. I was by no means saying hold them back. I probably should have left the word "push" out of my sentence because that is not the right word for the situations we are seeing.

 

I have already apologized for being judgmental. All the extra college stuff is my own little rant about what we are dealing with close to home (and some pms thrown in for good measure:tongue_smilie:). I should not have made it sound like that included everyone who has kids in college at a young age.

[Jonibee]

Angel,

 

I should add in reply, that when I referred to long study days, in my house this is about 5, sometimes 6 hours. -- To me, that is equivalent, more or less, with public/private schools. Perhaps less. My kids don't do school on weekends -- almost never in the evening.

 

And in my real life, I was comparing (the death of contentment, I know) to kids we know spending 2 hours tops on "school" -- sometimes 2 hours a week on school. And bragging about it.

 

So I still maintain that education -- in whatever form that means to you -- means time. Just hangin' around doesn't make anyone educated. You have to actively participate.

 

Too many homeschoolers I know just want to hang out, listening to their ear plugs, texting whoever isn't there, updating their facebook, finding new apps to download to their phone. They are non-readers, lazy, non-hobby individuals.

 

But that's okay for them. Sometimes I think, though, that it's hard for a teen to realize where that type of kid is going to end up. My kids see mostly this type of kid. They do not see achievers in their homeschool real life -- those kids I suppose are in school. The kids we see are having fun -- hanging out at the mall on school days just because they can. Sometimes I resent having to even say how much I disagree with that type of homeschooling, and sometimes I resent that I have to have these conversations with my kids because these parents are in my face about my choices.

 

I appreciate your input. I do not think my kids do more than what our public school requires. In fact, there are a whole lot of public school students around here who do FAR more than we do. When I posted, I was considering other homeschoolers I know, who disdain the public school and the education it can provide for students who want it. I tend to think that these kids will regret the education they did not get from their parents.

 

And as the OP, let me also say my oldest only finished Saxon Algebra 1/2 by 12th grade. She had art talents -- photography, scrapbooking for magazines, piano. She still went on to get a 4.0 in her college program. So, as the original poster, I think you are misunderstanding me a bit. Same mom, same homeschool, child #4 is ready for Saxon Advanced Math in grade 9. It's not because I pushed or even required. It just is. But I don't need her homeschool friends making fun of that, which they do because they are busy texting today.

 

I was just sayin' I'm a little tired of let's say we're homeschooling because we're not sending our kids to public school. Just living does not make an education and I believe every kid deserves to learn. From books or from someone intelligent who actually teaches. Teens hanging out with other teens in person or by Facebook or side-by-side on X-box does not make me think -- they are getting educated.

[Angel]

Angel,

 

I should add in reply, that when I referred to long study days, in my house this is about 5, sometimes 6 hours. -- To me, that is equivalent, more or less, with public/private schools. Perhaps less. My kids don't do school on weekends -- almost never in the evening.

 

And in my real life, I was comparing (the death of contentment, I know) to kids we know spending 2 hours tops on "school" -- sometimes 2 hours a week on school. And bragging about it.

 

So I still maintain that education -- in whatever form that means to you -- means time. Just hangin' around doesn't make anyone educated. You have to actively participate.

 

Too many homeschoolers I know just want to hang out, listening to their ear plugs, texting whoever isn't there, updating their facebook, finding new apps to download to their phone. They are non-readers, lazy, non-hobby individuals.

 

But that's okay for them. Sometimes I think, though, that it's hard for a teen to realize where that type of kid is going to end up. My kids see mostly this type of kid. They do not see achievers in their homeschool real life -- those kids I suppose are in school. The kids we see are having fun -- hanging out at the mall on school days just because they can. Sometimes I resent having to even say how much I disagree with that type of homeschooling, and sometimes I resent that I have to have these conversations with my kids because these parents are in my face about my choices.

 

I appreciate your input. I do not think my kids do more than what our public school requires. In fact, there are a whole lot of public school students around here who do FAR more than we do. When I posted, I was considering other homeschoolers I know, who disdain the public school and the education it can provide for students who want it. I tend to think that these kids will regret the education they did not get from their parents.

 

And as the OP, let me also say my oldest only finished Saxon Algebra 1/2 by 12th grade. She had art talents -- photography, scrapbooking for magazines, piano. She still went on to get a 4.0 in her college program. So, as the original poster, I think you are misunderstanding me a bit. Same mom, same homeschool, child #4 is ready for Saxon Advanced Math in grade 9. It's not because I pushed or even required. It just is. But I don't need her homeschool friends making fun of that, which they do because they are busy texting today.

 

I was just sayin' I'm a little tired of let's say we're homeschooling because we're not sending our kids to public school. Just living does not make an education and I believe every kid deserves to learn. From books or from someone intelligent who actually teaches. Teens hanging out with other teens in person or by Facebook or side-by-side on X-box does not make me think -- they are getting educated.

 

Well, why didn't you say that in the first place :D Here I was assuming (and we know what that means) that you meant something different.

 

I understand what you are saying now. Thank you for putting up with me enough to clarify. I've been really thinking about all this since last night and even shared with dh. If nothing else, it really has led me to think about how I am approaching my dd's education.

 

I am the most relaxed out of my IRL homeschool buddies, so maybe that puts me on the defensive like you being on the more rigorous end puts you on the defensive with yours. ;) My dd who is in 11th does about 4-5 hours of school. Her most rigorous class is probably our Jane Austen Lit Study. She is in her 3rd year of Algebra I and finally getting it. She works (mostly) hard at what she does, though and is excelling at her extra studies.

 

There are some teens who are skimming through now who will be fine when they graduate. My dh is the perfect example of this type of underachiever. I can see how that would get annoying to have to keep talking to your kids about it. Probably as annoying as it is for me to justify why I don't want my dd at the CC now.

 

Again, thanks for clarifying. I certainly don't want my dd to spend 2 hours a week doing school. Though we certainly have a few days where there are more than a few hours spent doing Wii :lol: And who knows what all this will mean for me when my younger dd hits high school. She is a whole 'nother ballgame!