keptwoman Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 I have a few questions in relation to two puppies we are looking at. Both boxer pups. I'd like to ask them of someone who is well educated on good breeding. Both pups are from dogs with full papers, they will be regularly vet checked, vaccinated, wormed and will come with money back guarantee if they turn out to have health issues. These are the two pups: One is 4 weeks old. We can put a deposit now to secure it, but can't get it until 8 weeks (I know that is correct practice) or see it before it's first vaccination at 6weeks (Again I get why) But the breeders are breeding from very young dogs, under one year old for some of their *****es. The mother of this pup is already pregnant again, and her current litter is only 4-5 weeks old. I don't know, but this doesn't seem like good breeding practice to me to have litters so close together. They have 4-5 *****es of one breed, and have fairly regular pups to the sires which they also own. Having said that they are members of the requisite organisations, and we can get limited (pet only) papers for the dog. Does being so young, and having regular litters affect the health of the puppies? Does this sound puppy farmish or would we not get papers if that were the case? The other is 10 weeks old, we would get her on "breeders terms" this means that we would give her back to the breeders to have one litter of puppies. They will not do that before 18 months, but could be up to 3 years because they want the dog in optimum health. She would only have one litter, and they don't have multiple dogs pregnant or with litters at once. The dog is full papers as she is breeding/show stock. We'd get a discounted price because of breeders terms plus they would pay all costs related to pregnancy etc, pay us an amount for the "use" of her, and pay to have her desexed after the litter. They will also have the dog microchipped before coming to us, unlike the other crowd. To me Dog #2 sounds better in every way. Obviously we need a good relationship with the breeders in order for breeders terms to work, and we will be meeting with them soon. There are a few other things that I need to check as far as costs and liability are concerned, but they seem very through and caring of their *****es and pups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormy weather Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 The second option sounds best to me. The first sounds like they are just trying to get as much money as they can out of the *****es as they can.:glare: I don't see any reason why they should be pregnant before they have even weaned the first litter. IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vettechmomof2 Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 There are known health issues that cannot be tested in a dog under 1 year of age so they are not be responsible breeders with breeding their dogs that early. Also it is not healthy to breed a dog to young as their body is still growing and needs to receive the proper nutrients for itself before feeding young pups. So personally I would recommend staying far, far away from the first person claiming to be a breeder! Unless you plan to show or breed a dog, papers really do not amount to much. Some things that you should look for are possible genetic testing done on the parents or others in the lineage particular to that breed. Boxers can develop Hip/elbow dysplasia, thyroid problems, heart problems being the most common. Skin conditions, allergies as well are all common problems as well. So I would be more likely to find out what their guarentee covers and to what age does it cover to and what testing they do on their own breeding line of dogs to ensure that they are only producing from healthy stock. Have fun finding the right puppy for you!:001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WistfulRidge Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 #2 definitely sounds like the better option. It is not good to be breeding before one year of age, especially for a larger breed dog. The female hasn't had enough time to develop and I most certainly wouldn't have such a young ***ch having back to back litters. Odds are they're back yard breeders more interested in a quick buck and/or they're not too careful with their females when they're in heat. If I were you, I'd cross #1 off the list, period. I'd also come a meeting with breeder #2 prepared to answer a ton of questions, ask a ton of questions, and observe, observe, observe! I got on a soapbox and made a ridiculously long response to similar question here about what to look for in a good breeder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awtl Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 A good breeder cares about their animals. The first option definitely doesn't sound like a place you'd want to buy from. You are supposed to skip a heat to allow the dog's body to have time to recuperate as having puppies is hard on her. The second sounds a lot better. Have you been able to actually go there, or is it too far from where you live? If it were me, I would definitely want to be able to visit the place, see the dogs, and see how they are raised. There is a world of difference between a puppy that was raised in a kennel and one that was raised in a home environment. Even if the dog is 10 weeks old, you are better of if she was raised in a home environment because they get the interaction they need. In fact, an older puppy might even be better because they will be closer towards housebreaking, etc. They learn manners and social skills that a dog raised in a kennel will know absolutely nothing about. They also tend to have a better personality. A good breeder will most likely have a puppy contract for you to sign. Some of the terms concern where the dog will be kept, etc. but most importantly, it will require that you return the dog to them if you can no longer keep it. This ensures that the dog will not end up in a puppy mill or similar condition by a naive owner. That doesn't mean that everyone is naive or anything like that, but as breeders, we always felt a big responsibility for bringing our puppies into the world, and we felt better always knowing where each one was and not having to worry if one of them ended up in a bad situation. A good breeder will be very concerned that you are a good pet owner and that the type of dog they are breeding is a good match for you. The concern about the second home would be dealing with a large dog being in heat as they would definitely be skipping a heat or two according to the time frame you gave. That can be an awful pain, especially if you have other male dogs, even neutered dogs. Just my two cents. My post got a little too long, I'm sorry about that. We raised poodles for a short period of time. We have owned dogs from reputable breeders and have owned and re-homed puppy mill dogs as well. I think it is definitely worth it to get a home-raised dog from a reputable breeder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 FWIW, unless the 'papers' are AKC papers, they aren't worth the paper they are written on. There are many, many bogus breed organizations out there that help puppy mills sell their ill-bred puppies. Also, FWIW, many, many pit bull crosses or pit bulls are called 'boxers' to avoid breed bans. In fact, some breed bans ban boxers as well. I only skimmed these posts b/c I usually get myself in trouble on pet questions. . . so I am sure others gave good advice, but I just didn't want to read it. . . anyway, I HTH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keptwoman Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 FWIW, unless the 'papers' are AKC papers, they aren't worth the paper they are written on. There are many, many bogus breed organizations out there that help puppy mills sell their ill-bred puppies. Also, FWIW, many, many pit bull crosses or pit bulls are called 'boxers' to avoid breed bans. In fact, some breed bans ban boxers as well. I only skimmed these posts b/c I usually get myself in trouble on pet questions. . . so I am sure others gave good advice, but I just didn't want to read it. . . anyway, I HTH. We are in Australia, but they would be the proper papers. And they are definitely boxers rather than pit bull crosses, which I would keep a mile from! Both are close to where I live, #2 definitely have them in the home, pups are born in the study and live in the house and then venture into the yard as they get bigger. I plan to go visit pup#2 and the breeder on Tuesday, then all going well, and all parties getting along, we may be able to collect the pup next weekend. Both include contracts and would take the puppy back if it needed rehoming. #1 offered to have the pup for Easter as we are going away and the pup would need to be kennelled. awtl: Fortunately we don't have male dogs, but yes, having read up last night, having a dog on heat a few times is going to be *interesting* vettech, I know the papers aren't overly important for us, but I do see them as a useful tool in making sure that the dog has been bred appropriately, and is purebred rather than a cross/mutt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keptwoman Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 I've just reread the info and realised the mother of pup #1 is not pregnant again, they are planning that she will have her next litter 6 months after these ones were born. Does that change peoples thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amber in AUS Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Responsible breaders do not back to back litters and don't bread from young dogs. I'd still go with option #2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keptwoman Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 Yeah, I know it's the right thing to do. And I have fingers crossed that when we meet #2 and her breeder, all goes well. I guess I'd just started to love the little pup I had a photo of :( I'll keep telling myself to be patient and wait for the right dog. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
celticmom Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 One piece of advice if you will have a female dog that will go "in season" is to crate train her now while she is young. That way when she is "in" she can spend more time in her crate which she will probably prefer up to a point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tap Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 If something happens within the 3 years, can you void the 'breeders terms'? To me, that is a clause I wouldn't care for. What if you move or aren't in a position to deal with a dog in heat, or pregnant at a set time? How much, if any, control do you have about this part of the contract? When you say "give her back" does that mean the dog will live with you during that time, or the breeder. What happens if something ill fated happens to the dog during this time? ie If she is with you, but gets hit by a car, and looses the pups? Can you be held liable for the financial loss to the breeder? If the pup lives with the breeder during this time, what protection do you have that you will get her back in good health...what if something happens while she is there? Are you willing to have a dog that lives with you for a few years, leave to for several months? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hillfarm Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 (edited) FWIW, unless the 'papers' are AKC papers, they aren't worth the paper they are written on. There are many, many bogus breed organizations out there that help puppy mills sell their ill-bred puppies. IMO, AKC papers may not be worth the paper they are written on either. I have seen plenty of poorly bred AKC dogs, full of health and behavior problems. Unfortunately, many people believe that the letters, AKC, mean that doesn't happen but they are wrong. Just last year some family friends of ours spent $1,500 on a papillon puppy that had AKC papers. A few months later, he bagan to have some strange and severe behavior problems. The vet they took him to said it appears that he was from a very poor breeding and probably a puppy mill victim. They are currently using a companion dog and massive amounts of medication to see if they can help him develop to where he can lead a normal life. If not, he will have to be put down. He had the "magic papers" but unfortunately, those papers obscured multiple problems. Also, there are several very interesting breeds that have not been recognized by the AKC. They are papered by various breed specific registries which in no way resemble puppy mills. I have been considering an African mastiff for some time now and when our 8yo black lab rescue eventually passes, that is probably the breed I will purchase. AKC papers are not currently available for that breed and I don't give a fig whether they will be at the time I buy one or not. I care much more about their specific breed registry. The bottom line is that there are great dogs that are AKC and also some miserable ones. There are great dogs with other papers and miserable ones. There are great dogs without any pedigree papers and miserable ones. To make a blanket statement that AKC is the only way to go and a guarantee of quality is inaccurate. Regarding the op, I strongly suggest you visit the breeders (without impressionable kids in tow) to get a feel for whether they care more for their animals or more for their profits. Ask for references from other families who have purchased dogs from them. Discuss what can and has gone wrong with their agreements in the past. To be honest, unless I wanted a show dog, I would be very reluctant to sign away any rights if I was paying top dollar for a dog. And if you want a show candidate, then spend a little time on the show circuit and talk to several who show your breed. Take what you hear with a grain of salt, it is after all a very competitive industry. But you will definitely leave with an ear full about all the perceived wrong doings in the area.;) Edited February 6, 2011 by hillfarm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keptwoman Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) One piece of advice if you will have a female dog that will go "in season" is to crate train her now while she is young. That way when she is "in" she can spend more time in her crate which she will probably prefer up to a point. Yes, we plan to crate train from the day our puppy comes home. If something happens within the 3 years, can you void the 'breeders terms'? To me, that is a clause I wouldn't care for. What if you move or aren't in a position to deal with a dog in heat, or pregnant at a set time? How much, if any, control do you have about this part of the contract? When you say "give her back" does that mean the dog will live with you during that time, or the breeder. What happens if something ill fated happens to the dog during this time? ie If she is with you, but gets hit by a car, and looses the pups? Can you be held liable for the financial loss to the breeder? If the pup lives with the breeder during this time, what protection do you have that you will get her back in good health...what if something happens while she is there? Are you willing to have a dog that lives with you for a few years, leave to for several months? These are all questions I have to ask. I'm not actually worried about the dog going to the breeders for the time she has her litter. The breeder will kennel the dog when we are on holiday (as long as they are home) and will visit us and VV in the time from when we get her to when she is bred. So it will not be a strange home she is going to. Plus we will be able to visit her regularly while there. But liability is high on my list of questions to ask, as is circumstances changing (for instance something happening and us going back to NZ, unlikely but never say never) Regarding the op, I strongly suggest you visit the breeders (without impressionable kids in tow) to get a feel for whether they care more for their animals or more for their profits. Ask for references from other families who have purchased dogs from them. Discuss what can and has gone wrong with their agreements in the past. To be honest, unless I wanted a show dog, I would be very reluctant to sign away any rights if I was paying top dollar for a dog. And if you want a show candidate, then spend a little time on the show circuit and talk to several who show your breed. Take what you hear with a grain of salt, it is after all a very competitive industry. But you will definitely leave with an ear full about all the perceived wrong doings in the area.;) I am visiting breeder #2 this weekend. I'm also going to get some numbers of current and past "breeders terms" puppy owners to chat with them. I have no plans to show the dog, it's an appealing thought but I really don't have time for anything that intensive. I have told the others that I am unwilling to buy a puppy without visiting, so should they be in a position to allow us to visit with a puppy before putting a deposit on it, I'd like to hear from them. I can't beleive what a big thing buying a dog is. Naievely I thought we'd decide and I'd find a breeder with pups and we'd have a new pet within weeks. Perhaps I should be less fussy (said very tounge in cheek) I've also been reading up about raising a pup and training a dog. Oh my, what a big job it is to do it right. Thank you all, you have been very helpful. Edited February 7, 2011 by keptwoman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shelly in IL Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 Is that a mandatory thing? I surely wouldn't want to have that kind of strings on my purchase. I swear having puppies changed the health and personality of our Boston Terrier when i lived at home. Of course, that probably doesn't happen to everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 (edited) We have our dog on 'breeder's terms' but slightly differently: we only paid a deposit for her - she still belongs to the breeder until she has had three litters, then she is signed over to us. Things to consider about the terms: the puppy won't be spayed, so whenever she comes into heat you have to deal with the mess and also with keeping her away from male dogs. Our particular dog becomes incontinent while in heat too, but that won't necessarily happen. We get on really well with the breeder, so there's not been a problem with the relationship. I just hadn't thought through what having a fertile ***** around the place would mean. I agree that the first option sounds too like a puppy farm. Our breeder breeds *****es no more often than once a year, with a limit of three litters per *****. Laura Edited February 7, 2011 by Laura Corin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mommaduck Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 The second option sounds best to me. The first sounds like they are just trying to get as much money as they can out of the *****es as they can.:glare: I don't see any reason why they should be pregnant before they have even weaned the first litter. IMHO. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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