Have you seen this on Obama?

[Jenny in Atl]

I'm not surprised at all. Just very disappointed. In general, and with this election, specifically. I think that it is sad, and, in some ways, dangerous.

 

I agree. The less we participate in the process, the worse it becomes. But then I have been disappointed for many years now. :confused:

[Jennifer in NH]

The three candidates, are these our best and brightest? Are any of them really able to lead our country effectively? Can't we do better than these?

 

Seems like we should be doing better than this.

 

Not to knock them as people, but I don't really think that any of them can do the job. And that is frightening to me.

:iagree: Kinda sad, and scary isn't it?

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

He was raised by Muslim men in a mosque. No matter what his religious affiliations are now, this is the environment he grew up in. It has to have had an impact.

 

He was? How do you figure? I've never heard that he was raised by Muslim men in a mosque. That's just... huh? I would have figured I would have heard that. And I think more than a couple of our board members are married to Muslim men. Their kids won't pass the religious litmus test for the office of President in this country, I guess, but I'm not sure that's such a great thing. Even the appearance of maybe being raised by a Muslim or going to public school in a Muslim country taints someone.

 

I know he had his hand over his heart in other pictures. He was also singing the national anthem in the pic where he wasn't putting his hand over his heart.

 

Does it bother you to know that I sing the national anthem without my hand over my heart? :001_huh: I've done so even in military theaters before the movie. Most military members are standing at attention, no hand over their hearts, too. But again, you can't question what is *in* their heart just because of where their hand is. They put their life on the line every day for their country, yet would we say they are less than patriotic for how they stand? You're questioning the loyalty of a man because of how he plays the game. I know some would sneer at him as a hypocrite if he DID put his hand over his heart. He really can't win this one.

 

 

I'm worried about our country. I'm worried Obama will get elected. I'm shocked that so many people on this board support Obama. Not that I think that makes anyone a bad person, it's just not were I thought the politics of this board were!

 

And I'm worried he won't be.

 

There's no one position on this board. We're REALLY diverse. And that's actually a good, good thing. I'm really enjoying hearing everyone's thoughts on this one. There was a "who would you vote for" poll awhile back that was interesting that quite a lot of us participated in.

 

Did you have a candidate you liked earlier in the race? I know several people here were saddened when Huckabee dropped out, and some are still making a statement by voting for Ron Paul.

[Mrs Mungo]

He was? How do you figure? I've never heard that he was raised by Muslim men in a mosque. That's just... huh? I would have figured I would have heard that.

 

He wasn't. His father is Muslim, true. His parents divorced when he was two. His mother re-married when he was 6, his step-father was Muslim. They lived in Indonesia which is heavily Muslim but not necessarily the same "brand" of Islam you get in Afghanistan. Implying that they are is sort of like saying all Christians are like the FLDS group. He spent almost 5 years living in Indonesia from when he was 6 until he was 11. He attended a Muslim school part of that time and a Catholic school part of that time. Both CNN and the AP reported on the Muslim school he attended as is noted on the snopes page I linked. The most I can find anyone saying even on *anti-Obama* sites is that the locals say he sometimes followed his step-dad to the Mosque. I've been in a Mosque too, does that make me a Muslim?

 

And I think more than a couple of our board members are married to Muslim men. Their kids won't pass the religious litmus test for the office of President in this country, I guess, but I'm not sure that's such a great thing. Even the appearance of maybe being raised by a Muslim or going to public school in a Muslim country taints someone.

 

I agree with you and think it's pretty sad in this day and age to have such a discriminatory view.

 

And I'm worried he won't be.

 

I agree. I will vote for Clinton if I have to but I'd rather vote Obama. I've read his webpage quite extensively and he talks a lot about his plans. I don't know where anyone would get the idea he hasn't talked about his plan.

 

There's no one position on this board. We're REALLY diverse. And that's actually a good, good thing. I'm really enjoying hearing everyone's thoughts on this one. There was a "who would you vote for" poll awhile back that was interesting that quite a lot of us participated in.

 

I agree. I enjoy seeing different opinions. The world would be a pretty boring place if we all thought exactly the same way.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

Both CNN and the AP reported on the Muslim school he attended as is noted on the snopes page I linked.

 

And for clarity, the Muslim school he attended was the local *public* school in Indonesia, correct? Just like when my son attended German school, Christianity was taught as the supported religion of the nation in religion class. Though honestly, it wouldn't be called a "Christian school" in the US.

[Mrs Mungo]

And for clarity, the Muslim school he attended was the local *public* school in Indonesia, correct? Just like when my son attended German school, Christianity was taught as the supported religion of the nation in religion class. Though honestly, it wouldn't be called a "Christian school" in the US.

 

Basically, that's what CNN and the AP said when they went and investigated it. It's all there on Snopes.

[kokotg]

Well, I'll throw out a couple of my reasons for supporting Obama out there, not because I think I'll change anyone's mind, but because they're things I don't hear people talking a whole lot about. One thing I'm impressed by is his record on ethics reforms in the senate--stuff like the Obama-Coburn Transparency Act:

 

http://obama.senate.gov/press/060908-senate_passes_c/

 

U.S. Senators Barack Obama (D-IL) and Tom Coburn (R-OK) today hailed the Senate's passage of the "Federal Funding Accountability and Transparency Act," a bill that will create a Google-like search engine and database to track approximately $1 trillion in federal grants, contracts, earmarks and loans.

 

The idea is that transparency in congressional spending is the first step to reform. When you get the Senate and one of the primary things you spend your time on is passing groundbreaking, bipartisan ethics reform bills--I think that says something about you.

 

And, secondly, I'm an unabashedly partisan Democrat, and I'm very impressed with the way Obama's run his campaign. He campaigns in every state, he talks to people the Democrats have ignored for the last 40 years, and I think he's the one who can do the most to help other Democrats running local races, especially in red states. I think the way the Democrats have run on a 50%+1 strategy, writing off hundreds of electoral votes before the election even begins, is both a moral and a strategic failing.

[Slartibartfast]

Well, with all honesty I started out an Edwards supporter but he is MORE liberal than Obama.

 

I liked having him in the running, it seemed like he was keeping things left, because if someone tried to lean right he would jump their behinds, Edwards can attack someone and come out looking like the nicest guy. He is *such* a Southener. :lol: I can't help but admire his smarmyness.

[Cheryl in NM]

Being a Muslim doesn't disqualify one from the Presidency, nor does being taught by Muslim individuals.

 

Also, the religion of someone's father has no bearing on whether they can hold the office of President.

 

There is still discrepancies about Islam being a violent or peacefull religion. Being raised with Muslim beliefs means that Obama might tend toward those beliefs himself. But, this is America, how can we discriminate? Radical Muslims want to kill Americans. How can we let a Muslim be our president? I'm very nervous about this.

 

Does it bother you to know that I sing the national anthem without my hand over my heart? :001_huh:

Yes, it does bother me, unless you have a disability to prevent it. I believe it is a show of respect. I'm not saying you are a bad person, but I would expect every able person to place their hands over their hearts during the national anthem.

 

I've done so even in military theaters before the movie. Most military members are standing at attention, no hand over their hearts, too.

The military members are standing at attention as they should be. We put our hands on our hearts to honor them. They stand at attention to honor the country.

 

Did you have a candidate you liked earlier in the race? I know several people here were saddened when Huckabee dropped out, and some are still making a statement by voting for Ron Paul.

I liked Huckabee and Mitt Romney.

 

 

 

Obviously I need to do some more research. I sound very descriminitory, but it doesn't change how I feel about the facts I have. So throw out Islam for Obama, add in Jeremiah Wright. That's almost as bad. Obama just barely denounced Wright yesterday after defending him all this time and sitting in Wright's congregation being indoctrinated for 20 years. Basically, I believe that Obama's religious extremes might cause problems in the White House.

 

Of course, like I said earlier, there aren't any great choices for President.

[Mrs Mungo]

There is still discrepancies about Islam being a violent or peacefull religion. Being raised with Muslim beliefs means that Obama might tend toward those beliefs himself. But, this is America, how can we discriminate? Radical Muslims want to kill Americans. How can we let a Muslim be our president? I'm very nervous about this.

 

KKK members claim to be Christian. So do many cults. Do you want everyone painting Christians with that brush? If you don't then you shouldn't do it to Muslims. There are fundamentalists/extremists in every group.

 

Basically, I believe that Obama's religious extremes might cause problems in the White House.

 

What religious extremes?

 

And if you were in favor of Romney then what you're really saying is you are only in favor of extremes when you agree with them. I don't see Obama as having extreme religious views.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

That doesn't mean I don't think their opinion on homeschooling matters, though. I think the reaction or stance one way or t'other is revealing, personally. And if they think it's wrong, or wrongheaded, fine - but will they support my right to make the decision for my kids?

 

You make great points, Andie. Food for thought. Thanks.

[Slartibartfast]

There is still discrepancies about Islam being a violent or peacefull religion. Being raised with Muslim beliefs means that Obama might tend toward those beliefs himself. But, this is America, how can we discriminate? Radical Muslims want to kill Americans. How can we let a Muslim be our president? I'm very nervous about this.

 

You are right this is America and seeing how this is America, we aren't SUPPOSED to discriminate.

 

 

Both Bush and Clinton have claimed to be Christian...do you feel they have presented a good example of what a Christian should be? Because I am a Christian and I find their behavior appalling.

[Cheryl in NM]

KKK members claim to be Christian. So do many cults. Do you want everyone painting Christians with that brush? If you don't then you shouldn't do it to Muslims. There are fundamentalists/extremists in every group.

Did KKK members claim to kill black people because the Bible told them to do it? Muslims claim that the quran tells them to kill Americans. In fact, they believe that when they conquer a place the people will be a. killed b. taxed, c. taken as a slave. BTW, the conquerer gets to choose. That's what these extremists believe. While the KKK is a terrible organization, I don't think they are as bad as the Muslim extremists because they Muslims claim Allah is telling them to kill us.

 

What religious extremes?

Islam and "Rev." Wright's indoctrination program

 

And if you were in favor of Romney then what you're really saying is you are only in favor of extremes when you agree with them. I don't see Obama as having extreme religious views.

I can see how you'd think that, but the LDS do not want to kill me. They don't say G*d **** America. In fact, they believe America is the chosen land.

 

 

 

Again, these are just my opinions and I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, just stating my opinion.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

The military members are standing at attention as they should be. We put our hands on our hearts to honor them. They stand at attention to honor the country.

 

 

I'll just have to let my 24 years as an Army wife be honor enough. :) (And I know you're not dissin' me for lack of honor, I'm just saying that if you didn't know me and saw me standing there without my hand on my heart and you thought, "Wow, she does not honor her country or the military that gives up daily comfort so that she can sleep easy at night" you would be mistaken. And just that perhaps you are mistaken about others who make the same choice that I do.)

 

Peace,

Pam

[Cheryl in NM]

You are right this is America and seeing how this is America, we aren't SUPPOSED to discriminate.

 

 

Both Bush and Clinton have claimed to be Christian...do you feel they have presented a good example of what a Christian should be? Because I am a Christian and I find their behavior appalling.

 

I don't believe Clinton was a good example of Christianity. His infidelity and abuse of power was inexcusable.

 

I don't see that Bush did anything un-Christain-like. What behavior of his do you find apalling?

[5kidsforME]

You are right this is America and seeing how this is America, we aren't SUPPOSED to discriminate.

 

 

Both Bush and Clinton have claimed to be Christian...do you feel they have presented a good example of what a Christian should be? Because I am a Christian and I find their behavior appalling.

 

 

What is appalling about Bush's behavior?

[beansprouts]

Originally Posted by Mrs Mungo

KKK members claim to be Christian. So do many cults. Do you want everyone painting Christians with that brush? If you don't then you shouldn't do it to Muslims. There are fundamentalists/extremists in every group.

Did KKK members claim to kill black people because the Bible told them to do it?

Sadly, yes. The KKK does claim the Bible supports racism.

[Slartibartfast]

I don't believe Clinton was a good example of Christianity. His infidelity and abuse of power was inexcusable.

 

I don't see that Bush did anything un-Christain-like. What behavior of his do you find apalling?

 

What is appalling about Bush's behavior?

 

 

Well, for starters how about lying?

 

All sins are equal right?

[Mrs Mungo]

Originally Posted by Mrs Mungo

KKK members claim to be Christian. So do many cults. Do you want everyone painting Christians with that brush? If you don't then you shouldn't do it to Muslims. There are fundamentalists/extremists in every group.

Did KKK members claim to kill black people because the Bible told them to do it? Muslims claim that the quran tells them to kill Americans. In fact, they believe that when they conquer a place the people will be a. killed b. taxed, c. taken as a slave. BTW, the conquerer gets to choose. That's what these extremists believe. While the KKK is a terrible organization, I don't think they are as bad as the Muslim extremists because they Muslims claim Allah is telling them to kill us.

 

Most KKK members would say they were doing their Christian duty, particularly where Jews are concerned. There's plenty out there on the internet about it but I can't stomach linking any of it.

 

I'm well aware of what Muslim extremists think, my husband has served 2 combat tours in Afghanistan.

 

What religious extremes?

Islam and "Rev." Wright's indoctrination program

 

He's not Muslim and he's not Reverend Wright. I'd hate to think I would ever be held responsible for everything my preacher ever said. I once walked out on a Thanksgiving service because he was preaching Manifest Destiny and I'm Native American. I was *extremely* offended.

 

And if you were in favor of Romney then what you're really saying is you are only in favor of extremes when you agree with them. I don't see Obama as having extreme religious views.

I can see how you'd think that, but the LDS do not want to kill me. They don't say G*d **** America. In fact, they believe America is the chosen land.

 

No, they don't want to kill you but what they do want is just as bad from my perspective.

 

[Cheryl in NM]

I'll just have to let my 24 years as an Army wife be honor enough. :) (And I know you're not dissin' me for lack of honor, I'm just saying that if you didn't know me and saw me standing there without my hand on my heart and you thought, "Wow, she does not honor her country or the military that gives up daily comfort so that she can sleep easy at night" you would be mistaken. And just that perhaps you are mistaken about others who make the same choice that I do.)

 

Peace,

Pam

 

Kudos, very well said. I applaud all of our military even if I don't agree with them. From now on I will not assume (you know what they say about that!) so much. However, it would be easier for a casual observer to see your patriotism if you displayed it outwardly. It would be a good example to others. For example, if there a group of people not placing their hands on their hearts it would be easier for others not to and those others have given no sacrifice nor honor. I believe that even if we don't agree with our military actions we need to honor our military. I'm sure there are soldiers in the East right now that don't agree with this war, but they are still there because they believe in America.

 

Another important factor to be President of America in my mind is that the candidate should have been in the military service. How can they command the troops if they know nothing of the military?

[beansprouts]

I've done so even in military theaters before the movie. Most military members are standing at attention, no hand over their hearts, too.

The military members are standing at attention as they should be. We put our hands on our hearts to honor them. They stand at attention to honor the country

 

 

Cheryl, this isn't fair. I can understand not supporting Obama, I am not sure I like him either. But if you are going to debate you need more legitimate reasons than these. This stuff is just nitpicky and meaningless. I am sorry.

[Fourmother]

There is still discrepancies about Islam being a violent or peacefull religion. Being raised with Muslim beliefs means that Obama might tend toward those beliefs himself. But, this is America, how can we discriminate? Radical Muslims want to kill Americans. How can we let a Muslim be our president? I'm very nervous about this. ...Obviously I need to do some more research. I sound very descriminitory, but it doesn't change how I feel about the facts I have.

 

Yes, Islam has been used by radical adherents to justify violence, and so has Christianity and Judaism. This doesn't make every Muslim, Christian or Jew a blood thirsty warmonger or terrorist. So yes, you do sound discriminatory. At least you're honest about it.

[5kidsforME]

Well, for starters how about lying?

 

All sins are equal right?

 

 

I am assuming you are talking about weapons of mass destruction?

 

At the time they had intelligence that lead them to believe that there were weapons of mass destruction.

[Cheryl in NM]

Well, for starters how about lying?

 

All sins are equal right?

 

Okay, are we back to that? That is still up for debate also.

[Mrs Mungo]

Another important factor to be President of America in my mind is that the candidate should have been in the military service. How can they command the troops if they know nothing of the military?

 

Well, I don't think you can compare a stint in the national guard with a career military officer (Bush v. McCain). And I thought you said you favored Romney and Huckabee? Romney received a ministerial deferment from service during Vietnam. Huckabee has never served in the military.

 

I agree that I would prefer more people in government who have served in the military but career military people who choose to put themselves through the pain of public service are few and far between. :lol:

[Peek a Boo]

well, he's also worn a flag pin when it was given to him by a veteran...that was mentioned in the "debate" on ABC the other night. I don't see anything inconsistent in wearing a symbol that has meaning because of the individual it comes from as opposed to buying a cheap made in China flag pin and sticking it on so you'll look good for the cameras. I do think it's comically inconsistent that Obama and only Obama is constantly asked about it when neither of the other candidates regularly wears a flag pin, though.

 

yeah, he wore the flag pin given by a veteran. briefly. He's still wearing the wristband.

 

 

and I agree with everyone else that the wearing of a pin or other object really isn't the issue. Nobody really cares that the candidates wear or don't wear one. It's the reasons given by the candidates that's up for assessment.

On one hand he [literally] touts the wristband. On the other he dismisses the flag pin given by a veteran.

 

Obama is the only one making an issue out of the need to NOT wear any objects, yet continuing to wear an object. This whole campaign from all sides has been pretty comical tho.

[Cheryl in NM]

Well, I don't think you can compare a stint in the national guard with a career military officer (Bush v. McCain). And I thought you said you favored Romney and Huckabee? Romney received a ministerial deferment from service during Vietnam. Huckabee has never served in the military.

 

I agree that I would prefer more people in government who have served in the military but career military people who choose to put themselves through the pain of public service are few and far between. :lol:

 

I was asked who I would have prefered from the candidates that were running. I believe McCain is the only veteran that served any time. While, I'll probably vote for him, I'm still dissapointed in my choices.

[Aubrey]

Much of what's in this video is actually refuted on Snopes:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp

 

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/anthem.asp

 

and here he is refuting the claim he won't say the Pledge:

 

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/28/AR2007112802757.html?hpid=topnews

 

What has Kennedy getting his name wrong got to do with Obama or the random black guy wearing a swastika shirt?

 

On not wearing the flag pin:

 

 

That's only halfway through but I gotta get dressed to go out to dinner.

 

eta: more here- http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/obama.asp

 

Hey, Mungo! :seeya:

 

I have to tell you. (Actually, I should whisper, because I'm going to make myself look really dumb.)

 

I believed almost every. single. word. in that video. Most of it, I'd seen before. My fil loves to send me stuff like that. Well, not me in particular. He sends it to everyone.

 

So while *normally* when someone posts a link to Snopes, I just go, "Ah. M-hm," this time, I actually read...hm...the first two Snopes articles you posted for sure, maybe more. Can't remember. It all starts to run together.

 

But my point is, while the first article--about the Muslim stuff--breaks the false email down point by point, it doesn't *seem* (to me) to actually refute those points. For ex: the fake email says that O's bio father divorced his mom when O was 2 & went back to Kenya. Snopes says he went to Connecticut, then Kenya. Well...ok. So?

 

A lot of the Snopes article was like that, imo. It didn't seem to actually refute anything. As an English teacher, I was quite disappointed w/ how poorly the arguments were supported, in fact.

 

Ok, so the 2nd one. Instead of addressing O's failure to put his hand over his heart in the pic, it goes into a lot of detail about how that tradition is being gradually dropped. Well...ok...maybe in some parts of the country. Not where I live, but...you'd think a pres candidate would be *pretty* concientious about that kind of thing, kwim?

 

So it goes on to say that sometimes he does & sometimes he doesn't. Again...why? Without a *reason*...I don't know...he just didn't feel like it? Forgot? That doesn't seem to bode well for the leader of a place like this, kwim? Otoh, if there is a reason, that's suspect, too.

 

Personally, I don't like putting my hand on my heart for the anthem, etc., because I'm very self-concious about that sort of thing. I don't wave my finger around to represent the hs I'm at at football games, etc. I just don't do those sorts of things. I do, however, put my hand on my heart. Because I'm supposed to. Because *not* doing it would send a very different mssg. Kwim?

 

Ok, so my question for this post is regarding the Snopes articles. Did I miss something? Are you reading something into them? Or are we on two trains headed opposite directions going at a speed of.... (lol?)

[Cheryl in NM]

Cheryl, this isn't fair. I can understand not supporting Obama, I am not sure I like him either. But if you are going to debate you need more legitimate reasons than these. This stuff is just nitpicky and meaningless. I am sorry.

 

Ouch. I am seeing the same thing though. Now that I've been able to reveiw my opinions (thanks everyone!:tongue_smilie:) I guess my problem with Obama is gut instinct. I felt the same way when Clinton was elected. So I'll try to look on the bright side; Clinton did accomplish some good things in office. I'm thinking Obama has this election in the bag and I don't like it. I guess I don't have any solid reasons. My gut is right quite a bit though. I know, it sounds ridiculous!

[Cheryl in NM]

Yes, Islam has been used by radical adherents to justify violence, and so has Christianity and Judaism. This doesn't make every Muslim, Christian or Jew a blood thirsty warmonger or terrorist. So yes, you do sound discriminatory. At least you're honest about it.

 

You're right. I guess it's a double edged sword.

[Sahamamama]

We feel that the video concerning Barack Hussein Obama was informative, while we acknowledge the propagandistic elements -- it was meant to be shocking, and it succeeded in that regard.

 

I really hope this man does not become our next President.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

 

Another important factor to be President of America in my mind is that the candidate should have been in the military service. How can they command the troops if they know nothing of the military?

 

Well, FDR wasn't a veteran, but he managed. And my husband, who likes practically nothing about President Clinton (despise would not be too strong a word for it), considered him a fine commander-in-chief while serving on active duty the eight years of his presidency.

 

ETA: Lincoln had three months state militia experience, but that didn't include combat.

[Aubrey]

I'm interested to know if anyone knew President Bush's stance on homeschooling before he was elected. (Or, in fact, now. ??) What was his policy? And did it, pro or con or no comment, have any impact on homeschooling in the US in the past 8 years?

 

His policies on hs made it the equivalent of private school in Tx when he was gov. He also declared... homeschool week? You know, nice warm fuzzy stuff. ;)

 

I was going to link it, but...it's midnight. Oh, goodness!

 

Not to imply that hs'ing is a major focus of my search for the perfect candidate, just to answer your question.

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I guess I don't have any solid reasons. My gut is right quite a bit though. I know, it sounds ridiculous!

 

This is exactly how I feel about Senator Clinton. It's ridiculous, and I hate it, but there you have it. I cannot vote for her and it annoys me not to be able to clearly articulate to myself exactly why not. It's nothing specific, and I suspect it's a personality thing. So I totally understand.

[beansprouts]

Ouch. I am seeing the same thing though. Now that I've been able to reveiw my opinions (thanks everyone!:tongue_smilie:) I guess my problem with Obama is gut instinct. I felt the same way when Clinton was elected. So I'll try to look on the bright side; Clinton did accomplish some good things in office. I'm thinking Obama has this election in the bag and I don't like it. I guess I don't have any solid reasons. My gut is right quite a bit though. I know, it sounds ridiculous!

 

I tried to type that gently, but sometimes it is difficult to convey my heart in print.

[Cheryl in NM]

This is exactly how I feel about Senator Clinton. It's ridiculous, and I hate it, but there you have it. I cannot vote for her and it annoys me not to be able to clearly articulate to myself exactly why not. It's nothing specific, and I suspect it's a personality thing. So I totally understand.

 

Exactly!:001_smile: I feel pretty stupid. All my agruments have been torn to shreds on this thread. So it boils down to just "no reason, don't want the guy to be President!". Thanks for understanding and thanks for the debate. I'm off to watch a little tube before bed.

[Mrs Mungo]

Aubrey-I'm signing off for the evening now that my hubby's home and everyone has been fed dinner. I'll have to get back to you. I didn't want you to feel ignored or anything.

 

 

Cheryl-I really don't want to make anyone feel stupid, that's the last thing I'd want. I enjoy people who make me think about my opinions and why I hold them.

[Aubrey]

I see a lot of talk about (well & have now participated in, lol) the hand over the heart issue, the pin issue, the Muslim issue, etc.

 

As far as talking to "terrorists," I imagine there's something I'm missing there, but talking seems good to me, too. :001_smile:

 

What I'd like to hear more opinions on is his ref to his grandmother as a "typical white person" & his ref to Wright as his "spiritual mentor." Given the emphasis the latter put upon Black Liberation Theology, & given the tutorial provided by the propaganda video (heh-heh, I realize the irony of that), what do y'all think?

 

Somebody said that she hoped not to be judged by everything *her* pastor said--Mungo? Was that you? I agree w/ you...sort-of. But you said you walked out of church *one* Sun because of pastor's views. I got the impression--from one of fil's videos, not the one originally linked--that Wright has a long history of these viewpoints regarding whites, America, etc. (What about the AIDS comment?!) Plus, you haven't been *at* your church for 20 years. You don't claim that your pastor is your spiritual mentor. Kwim? Obama has, in various ways, *given* importance to his pastor & pastor's views.

 

And maybe it's not fair to judge someone by some of the details of their background, in the way that Obama is being judged. For a friend, you might not be so cautious. How about for an employee, though? Would we consider a white guy for employment if, in the interview, he said of a black person that the guy was simply, "a typical black person?"

 

What about for a babysitter? Given what we know (& don't know) of Obama, would we let him sit in our homes w/ our children while we were away? Honestly, he *looks* like a really friendly guy. I bet I'd like him. (Well, if me being white isn't a problem--and honestly? I bet it wouldn't be.)

 

I guess I feel like he's being cut too much slack. For what he's asking--to be the executive leader of this country--I think he needs to answer a few more questions than he's been willing to answer so far. Maybe the video is propaganda, like Pam says. But I'd sure like more reassurance if that's the case.

 

Ftr, I've heard that McCain has a terrible temper. I don't like what I've read of his policies & plans, & if the statements regarding his hot-headedness are true, I'd be pretty uncomfortable giving him the Big Red Button.

 

Hillary's plans disturb me, too, though. I feel like she's reaching pretty far into my personal life to try to control it. Things like mandatory preschool don't sit well w/ me.

 

I don't know who (for whom?) to vote in good conscience. Is it a worse evil to vote for someone awful because you believe they're the least-disappointing/dangerous/bad option? Or is it worse to not vote? Because either way, you have to take some level of responsibility for what you've put in office.

 

Just because I've rambled, please don't forget the first part of my post, asking about the Black Liberation Theology, because I hate it when I drowned out my own voice.

[Aubrey]

Aubrey-I'm signing off for the evening now that my hubby's home and everyone has been fed dinner. I'll have to get back to you. I didn't want you to feel ignored or anything.

 

No problem. I told dh over 30 min ago that I'd be off of here in 1. So I'm gone for the night, too. See y'all tomorrow!

[Kate in Arabia]

There is still discrepancies about Islam being a violent or peacefull religion.

There is such an enormous range of Muslim believers I don't understand how one can make this kind of judgment. The religion is the religion, it is the individual myriad followers who take away what they do from it.. just as with any other religious or even political philosophy

 

How can we let a Muslim be our president?

:(

 

 

I know these opinions are really prevalent in our country right now, and I had typed out a whole response, but honestly I'm just tired, and sad...

[Pam "SFSOM" in TN]

I see a lot of talk about (well & have now participated in, lol) the hand over the heart issue, the pin issue, the Muslim issue, etc.

 

As far as talking to "terrorists," I imagine there's something I'm missing there, but talking seems good to me, too. :001_smile:

 

What I'd like to hear more opinions on is his ref to his grandmother as a "typical white person" & his ref to Wright as his "spiritual mentor." Given the emphasis the latter put upon Black Liberation Theology, & given the tutorial provided by the propaganda video (heh-heh, I realize the irony of that), what do y'all think?

 

 

 

Context. Gramma walking down the street and reacting like a typical white person -- well, ok, imagine it's me in DC taking ds's friend home from Quiz Bowl late at night into SE. There's a drug bust on one corner -- you see the bag of white powder on the trunk, and the guy in handcuffs, and three cop cars with lights ablazing. I drop friend off at his house, all the windows have bars, all the cars parked on the street have a Club on the steering wheel. Friend gives me directions about how to get back to 95, I listen closely. Drive away. Realize about a block down the street that... dang. Was it right or left at the third light? Should have written it down. Dang.

 

Wrong turn. And typical white woman here, sorry... my blood pressure went up and I thought, how wrong a turn can I take and be safe? Knowing full well that behind all those doors and in those cars are families like mine, kids like mine, parents who want the best for their kids, loving people who would go out of their way to help me if I needed help. Would I be offended about being called a typical white woman in this context? No way. I WAS being a typical white woman. It probably wasn't necessary for me to be one. Not particularly proud of my reaction. But as a white woman, I can call it like it is.

 

I think in the times of segregation in the deep South, the typical black man would be uncomfortable being pulled over by police at night alone on a rural road. Is that insulting? I sure hope not. It would take a pretty atypical black man to not feel at least a tiny bit of apprehension. And unlike my likely silly reaction in DC (which actually happened Feb 07), his typical reaction would not be misplaced.

 

I had no idea how weird it was that I swallowed the hateful notions that I did about Catholicism and the Papacy and Jews all those years in my church. I simply did not see it. (And I'm not talking about differences in theology.) Probably my church would pass. My church didn't consider the taking of land from Native Americans and bringing slaves over here as terrorism like Rev. Wright does. But there was a good deal of talk about the d*mning of America for our sins (or rather, the sins of the gays and the gamblers) in VERY strong language from very mainstream pulpits in my hometown. If we, God's people, would humble ourselves, pray, seek God's face, turn from our wicked ways, then God would hear and heal our land. In that case, we could escape inevitable d*mnation. Weather, earthquakes (particularly in San Francisco), and disease was sent from God to punish sin. It is up to the individual to say how much more of a stretch that is than that AIDS was cooked up to take out a race of people.

 

I don't know much about the theology in question, though. McCain gave the commencement speech at a college whose late founder said that gays, feminists, and others who didn't please his god caused 9-11. So... I dunno. I don't think I'm annoyed at Sen. McCain for that, but he went in with his eyes as wide open as supposedly Sen. Obama did.

 

It is said that the foolishness of preaching brings people to the wisdom of God. If Wright's preaching is "foolish" to some and yet it brought Obama and others to Christ, did it not accomplish its purpose, even though the human who delivered the message might not have gotten every single extra detail right?

 

Anyway, thinking aloud.

 

Here's my ds's Daily Kos diary. The entry at the top might be of interest. (Disclaimer: He's a pretty strong Obama supporter, while I remain officially undecided for the general election.)

[battlemaiden]

What I'd like to hear more opinions on is his ref to his grandmother as a "typical white person" & his ref to Wright as his "spiritual mentor." Given the emphasis the latter put upon Black Liberation Theology, & given the tutorial provided by the propaganda video (heh-heh, I realize the irony of that), what do y'all think?

 

Somebody said that she hoped not to be judged by everything *her* pastor said--Mungo? Was that you? I agree w/ you...sort-of. But you said you walked out of church *one* Sun because of pastor's views. I got the impression--from one of fil's videos, not the one originally linked--that Wright has a long history of these viewpoints regarding whites, America, etc. (What about the AIDS comment?!) Plus, you haven't been *at* your church for 20 years. You don't claim that your pastor is your spiritual mentor. Kwim? Obama has, in various ways, *given* importance to his pastor & pastor's views.

 

And maybe it's not fair to judge someone by some of the details of their background, in the way that Obama is being judged. For a friend, you might not be so cautious. How about for an employee, though? Would we consider a white guy for employment if, in the interview, he said of a black person that the guy was simply, "a typical black person?"

 

I guess I feel like he's being cut too much slack. For what he's asking--to be the executive leader of this country--I think he needs to answer a few more questions than he's been willing to answer so far. Maybe the video is propaganda, like Pam says. But I'd sure like more reassurance if that's the case.

 

Ftr, I've heard that McCain has a terrible temper. I don't like what I've read of his policies & plans, & if the statements regarding his hot-headedness are true, I'd be pretty uncomfortable giving him the Big Red Button.

 

I have tried to mince the Rev. Wright thing for days now. I honestly want to give him the benefit of the doubt. I have resisted "guilt by association" feelings. But here are my issues:

 

If Obama doesn't agree, why did he stay in the pew when Rev. Wright said these things in the past? We have video evidence, this isn't in question that these hateful things have been said for a long time.

 

If he stayed because it was a socially active church and he needed to be part of a church for political reason- than his faith is shallow and I don't like it.

 

If he agreed with the teaching- I don't like it.

 

Why would he, after knowing fully the beliefs of Rev. Wright, would he appoint Rev. Wright to his African American Religious Leadership Council?

 

I recognize that he gave a sincere repudiation speech yesterday or the day before, but it felt a lot like the apologies I hear when my kids get punished- a little reactionary and delayed. I have no doubt there is sincere hurt for Obama- his friend and mentor has been incredibly insensitive to Obama and what he is trying to accomplish. I hurt for him. It is a severing of a long relationship.

 

As for McCain, his rumored temper may or may not be a fact, but his understanding of, and hatred for, war impresses me. He is a man who gets the reality of war- he's felt it. My gut tells me he won't rashly subject others to what he has experienced. This whole power of the button argument has been made against many presidents- Jimmy Carter was a submariner, remember? I could of used a little more temper out of him. And one other thing I like about McCain- he doesn't pander to the Christian Right. I hate pandering. I would much rather know where a person stands and disagree than see the politically plastered smile of a kiss butt. The fact that he has rankled the base comforts me.

 

Every candidate has flaws, just like every human being.

 

But if just these two issues were on the table- Barak Obama sitting passively in the pew of Rev. Wright's church for so long, or a man who has a bit of a mouth on him (and I'm pretty sure we only have verbal instances of a temper, right?)...There is one I trust to handle Kim Jon Il and Ahmadinejad more than the other.

 

As for domestic issues- I could never inflict universal health care on our country. My children may need a good doctor one day.

 

Jo

[Slartibartfast]

Well,

 

What I am confused about is why is the stuff that Rush Limbaugh says ok and the stuff that Wright says isn't?

 

I know Limbaugh isn't a religious leader, but a lot of people love Limbaugh or just listen to his program and are horrified at what Wright has said so I was wondering.

 

 

Here is a recent interview with Wright

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080428/ts_nm/usa_politics_obama_pastor_dc

[battlemaiden]

"I don't know much about the theology in question, though. McCain gave the commencement speech at a college whose late founder said that gays, feminists, and others who didn't please his god caused 9-11. So... I dunno. I don't think I'm annoyed at Sen. McCain for that, but he went in with his eyes as wide open as supposedly Sen. Obama did. "

 

And pissed people off by what he said during that commencement speech. The difference is he gave a single speech. 20yrs vs. single speech? I think that's a stretch. Completely different situation.

 

Black Liberation Theology- the more I learn the more I fear. Anyone who supports Farrakhan has loose bolts in my opinion. I saw Farrakahn speak in college. My roomate- a Jew- stood up silently in his seat and turned his back to the stage. He was the only one in the audience doing it. Farrakahn's body guards rushed down the aisle and dragged his butt outside, flinging him to the ground. He walked home elated to have stood against such hate. That same organization of body guards escorted Rev. Wright to the press club speech this week. I just can't give this a pass.

 

Jo

[PrairieAir]

As for McCain, his rumored temper may or may not be a fact, but his understanding of, and hatred for, war impresses me. He is a man who gets the reality of war- he's felt it. My gut tells me he won't rashly subject others to what he has experienced. This whole power of the button argument has been made against many presidents- Jimmy Carter was a submariner, remember? I could of used a little more temper out of him. And one other thing I like about McCain- he doesn't pander to the Christian Right. I hate pandering. I would much rather know where a person stands and disagree than see the politically plastered smile of a kiss butt. The fact that he has rankled the base comforts me.

 

 

These are exactly the things that have me leaning toward McCain. This board is the first place I've heard the issue of his temper brought up. I don't watch TV news or read the newspaper, though, and I've been a little preoccupied with events closer to home. I'm interested to find out more about McCain as well as the other two candidates.

[PrairieAir]

Well,

 

What I am confused about is why is the stuff that Rush Limbaugh says ok and the stuff that Wright says isn't?

 

I know Limbaugh isn't a religious leader, but a lot of people love Limbaugh or just listen to his program and are horrified at what Wright has said so I was wondering.

 

 

Here is a recent interview with Wright

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080428/ts_nm/usa_politics_obama_pastor_dc

 

I think there are just as many people who are bothered by Rush Limbaugh's statements as Wright's. The difference here is that Limbaugh doesn't have such a close personal tie to any of the candidates as Wright does. Has McCain sat approvingly in Limbaugh's audience for 20 years? Has he ever appeared to subscribe to Limbaugh's beliefs or approved his comments? I don't know how McCain has felt about what Limbaugh has said over the years. If he publicly agreed or looked to him as any kind of mentor, I would be turned off by that.

 

I am very concerned about this whole Black Theology thing and the association with Farracon. Before hearing all of this and a few comments from Obama, I was considering him very strongly for my vote. This one issue--which I see as racial division, distrust, and even hate--is the one thing which gives me the most cause for concern regarding Obama.

[kokotg]

And one other thing I like about McCain- he doesn't pander to the Christian Right. I hate pandering. I would much rather know where a person stands and disagree than see the politically plastered smile of a kiss butt. The fact that he has rankled the base comforts me.

 

 

 

McCain most certainly does pander to the religious right. He actively sought and refuses to reject the endorsement of John Hagee, who calls the Catholic church "the Great whore," insists that war with Iran is mandated by the Bible, and says Hurricane Katrina was God's punishment for New Orleans holding a gay pride parade (a particularly mysterious pronouncement, since pretty much every major city in the country holds gay pride parades....). The difference is that the media doesn't show these clips on a 24 hour loop because they're too busy eating the barbecue McCain cooks for them.

[beansprouts]

McCain most certainly does pander to the religious right. He actively sought and refuses to reject the endorsement of John Hagee, who calls the Catholic church "the Great whore," insists that war with Iran is mandated by the Bible, and says Hurricane Katrina was God's punishment for New Orleans holding a gay pride parade (a particularly mysterious pronouncement, since pretty much every major city in the country holds gay pride parades....). The difference is that the media doesn't show these clips on a 24 hour loop because they're too busy eating the barbecue McCain cooks for them.

 

 

If this is true, I would find it extremely disturbing!

 

What are your sources for this information?

[kokotg]

Well, you can do a search for Hagee and McCain and tons of stuff will come up. Some of the Hagee stuff is from his book. He said the thing about New Orleans on an interview on Fresh Air on NPR. McCain has said as recently as a couple of weeks ago, in an interview with George Stephanopoulus that, while he disagrees with these statements of Hagee's, he's still glad to have his endorsement.

 

Here's one opinion piece about it, from Salon:

 

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/02/29/hagee/

[kokotg]

Here's another one, giving a chronological run down of the whole thing:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/02/29/john-hagees-mccain-endor_n_89189.html