Teaching "outside the box" - or "Now what?"

[PeterPan]

I have wanted to see more discussions like this on these boards because the trend seems to be that everyone is now using curriculum or programs for everything. It wasn't always that way. Homeschool moms would choose their own reading lists and devise their own courses and there were delightful threads about the books we were reading and sharing with our kids.

 

I think the thing I struggle with then is how to know WHAT to do with the books, or even what NOT to do with the books. Karen has often written me and challenged me on this point, that sometimes even when I try to think out of the box, I go back to a very formulaic way of handling the materials and don't approach them from a different direction. So I think that's part of what drives moms who want to be out of the box back to curriculum, their own security of what to do with the materials, how to know when they're doing enough, how to know what to assign the student to write, etc. etc. The WTM tries to give practical structure for an outside the box approach, and yet unfortunately it is too driven to one side (outline, summarize, write, outline, summarize, write) and doesn't have any OTHER way of approaching things for kids who die with that, kids who indeed do better if you watch a movie, read the book, then enact/craft/build the book, and finally write about it.

 

Also, our trip to Alaska this fall, if you can bear with me (or avoid jealousy) was really mind-opening, because it made me reconsider what is IMPORTANT in my dd's education vs. what is box-checking. And I guess this time by box-checking I mean WTM's boxes. Those boxes and topics in WTM might fit some kids and not all. I really felt there a permission to redefine education, which I think is at the heart of some of these posts. I don't think you have to go all the way to unschooling to redefine education, since by redefining I'm referring to goals and content, not methodology. I do think unschooling and other non-standard approaches CAN work for some people. I've always had just enough self-doubt of my intellectual prowess (=I don't know a stitch of history) that I've doubted my *own* ability to do it. And yet even then, where this idea of different content plus different methodology = ??? I'm happy to walk there. I just haven't sorted out my own confidence on the issue and how practically to go about it. Textbooks are a fallback, the instant way to get structure.

[Corraleno]

Where would you encourage someone that is struggling to start from?

I'd say start from the end and work backwards — just as you did with teaching negative numbers. Start with figuring out what your goal is, and then figure out the best way to get to that place with this kid. I think Karen posted, somewhere back in this thread, that the destination is what matters, regardless of whether you take the Interstate and stop at all the suggested motels and restaurants in the guidebook, or take a meandering scenic route and look for unique little cafes and B&Bs. Or you can do what a few of us do and just throw a map and a tent in the back of the SUV and head off-road. Off-roading may be the scariest, but it may also be the most rewarding, and in some cases even the most direct route — e.g., the way you taught negative numbers was a much more direct route than taking the paved road. A map, a compass, and a little courage can take you far!

 

I would look at "skills" goals first, then think which methods and content would work best to develop them. That's a big part of Nan's approach, for instance. Critical thinking doesn't have to be learned with a "critical thinking curriculum"; for some kids lots of discussions and Socratic questioning may be much more effective. Discussions are not a lesser form of learning or output — the three best courses I ever had were independent studies in philosophy that involved nothing but (lots of) reading and (lots of) really intensive discussion. I can honestly say that Prof. Gill taught me more than every other teacher combined, because he engaged with me — arguing and pushing me to think and figure things out and be able to defend my position on everything, instead of just saying "Read what Kierkegaard said about this, and write a paper."

 

To me, that's the key to my role as a teacher. Content can be learned by anyone with a library card, but passionate, analytical engagement with the content — that requires discussion with other people who are as passionate and interested as you are. I have no idea if either of my kids will be lucky enough to have a college professor like I did. But I can try to model what he did for me, in teaching my kids.

 

Jackie

[PeterPan]

You know I've seen many people say look to the end, look to where you want to end up and work backwards, but UNTIL NOW it never occurred to me that I was to be looking at SKILLS, not just courses. Does that make sense? So I thought ok, want to his such and such rhetoric class, work backwards. Want 4 years of math at this level, work backwards. It hadn't occurred to me that I could say "be able to write coherently from a thesis" and work backwards from that.

 

Where do you get the list? I know, that bugs people and sounds dumb, but I'll ask anyway.

[rafiki]

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[swimmermom3]

I think my misunderstanding comes from your posts about writing. I did not interpret the word engaging to mean fun, fluffy, or easy. But I did interpret it to mean interesting vs. processing.

 

I think many boys do not enjoy writing and that writing can suck the pleasure out of a topic for them. I think it is the nature of most boys. :lol: (at least all 3 of mine!)

 

While I may have misinterpreted Jackie and Karen Anne's posts about how they are accommodating their children's education, in no way was I attempting to make anyone feel guilty. Quite the contrary. I was trying to encourage anyone with kids with disabilities to not feel guilty if they couldn't create a Star Trek curriculum or paleontology research project in an attempt to teach their children skills that they couldn't get them to "engage" in otherwise.

 

I know that anyone that has read Colleen's posts would recognize her posts as trying to understand and certainly not condemning.

 

I am a huge proponent of people educating their kids in ways that meet their kids needs.

 

I'll go climb back in my box now. :tongue_smilie:

 

You may not climb back in your box. Yours, Colleen's, and Elizabeth's observations and experiences are an equally necessary and important part of this conversation. And that was the point of my thread - conversation, dialogue, like JennW mentioned. The part of your comment in bold is similar to something you said in the grammar thread and it is another reason why I posted. It's not just parents with kids with disabilities that can feel guilty if they can't create a Star Trek curriculum. No one is saying that anyone has to. But sometimes we want to or we may know that we need to but our perception of what it takes (because we are looking at the whole picture, not piece by piece) is too overwhelming to proceed one step further.

 

When I first started on the board, Eight, I had read enough of your posts to know that you had high standards. But then I read a post about how you approached science in the elementary and middle school years. Honey, I had to sit in a corner for two days trying to fit high standards (the way I interpreted it) with interest-led science. Oh how I wanted to be there but felt terribly intimidated. I was fairly sure I needed your teaching experience. That was one of the first times I realized things could be done differently, very differently. At that point we were still doing school at home. That post opened a door.

 

We need doors opened, not to make us feel guilty, but to inspire us, to keep us fresh.

 

Now,I have a confession. There are times when ideas and questions about home schooling are nearly falling out of my head and making my family squirm. I come here and impulsively post. Then I go and do something silly like get a haircut, come back here and am blown away by the responses. Sometimes I can put together an articulate response and sometimes the responses just stay stuck in the goo of my marshmallow brain. (Thanks, Lisabees, it's the perfect description when stress hits the mind.:tongue_smilie:) In either case, I am grateful as always for everyone sharing their insights. Home schooling can be an isolating experience especially if the very act of home schooling rocks the boat of those around you. I appreciate the opportunity to come here and discuss more than just the latest curriculum.

[PeterPan]

But sometimes we want to or we may know that we need to but our perception of what it takes (because we are looking at the whole picture, not piece by piece) is too overwhelming to proceed one step further.

 

Lisa, I don't know if this fits you, but at least with me I think part of the struggle is that I am *so* theoretical, global, and out there already (in the way I generally approach problems of any sort), that I'm afraid that if I launch out on my own I won't be *able* to pin it down into anything practical. So then we'll drift, not getting things done. My dh (and I think some people on this board) are very sequential. They can figure out things, go in order, and just decide. And some people just live in LaLa Land, pondering philosophy, and really having a hard time saying yes, do this writing assignment with this book, it's definitely what I want. Kwim?

 

Here, I'll illustrate, because I'm probably being vague. My husband needed the dimensions on the cabinets to finalize the drawings. I said I couldn't because I didn't know where certain pots were going. Then he wanted colors. Well I didn't even START to work on those, lol. He kept pestering on colors, brought samples, and still no progress with colors. I sweated my layout, taped it all out, decided all the pots, then finalized the dimensions (3 am). Looked at the paper for the colors, within 10 minutes had chosen colors we had never even talked about, and was done. I live so long in theory land, wanting to do so many things, liking so many things, having so many ideas, that it's extremely hard to finally say YES to whatever and be definite. Definitely it carries over to how I approach curriculum. And so I worry whether I could land myself in a terrible pickle by diverging or whether I'd be able to pin down and be as definite as necessary to be productive.

 

Or maybe Karen would now come along and say I need to question my own assumption there that it's necessary to pin down things to be productive? Hehehe, there you go.

[Colleen in NS]

I want to ask about how much frustration is necessary (or not) in the process of learning.

So I guess I want to ask, if we are talking about learning differences or learning styles, how much do we "allow" (for lack of a better word) our children to stay in their comfort zones in the process of their education?

 

I hope this doesn't sound too simplistic, but what do you think about your experience that stretched you? Did you hate it? Do you regret it? Are you glad you got stretched? Do you think you should stretch your ds at different times over his schooling years? No one can really say how much frustration is necessary (or not) - it's something that you will figure out as you go along (and fail many times in, because you are human, but you will pick back up again and restart).

 

Also, I think it's pretty common for kids around 6-7 to start being reluctant - depending on what you are doing. When my kids were littler, I had a loose family routine instead of a school routine, up until around grade 1 - we didn't do formal preschool (I couldn't understand why preschool was so important to so many of my peers with children) or formal Kindergarten. We read and played and did laundry and cooked and baked and played some more. So when I started doing things like a spelling notebook and copywork in grade 1, the foot-dragging started. It took longer than the other boring things they had had to do, like toothbrushing or little chores, lol. And so they didn't want to have to sit with me for 30 minutes to do this paper-thing. But I persevered, same as I did with toothbrushing, because I believed it was necessary to do a bit of that stuff a few days a week.

 

:iagree: I have been extremely frustrated over the direction of this thread.

 

I read these kinds of threads to find ways to help my kids, not to have criticism and guilt heaped upon me.

 

This thread has taken a very bizarre turn. Good grief! How is it that a thread about how to go outside the box is now making those of us who are happy and successful outside the box feel defensive?

 

About that word "engaged".

 

I don't mean to make anyone feel defensive or criticised or guilty. I read Lisa's OP, thought, "Oh that looks interesting and like it would apply to my family, I think I'll join in." She didn't just ask to hear from people who parent kids with learning disabilities (or whatever word I am supposed to use). As people kept posting, I kept getting more and more confused about what they were talking about - I thought, "Maybe I've joined in something I'm not supposed to be in, because they keep talking about their LD kids, and maybe I'm misunderstanding the box we are talking about - they are talking about LD kids getting out of a box." So I asked questions and made comments, so I could try and figure out some things. And now in further posts, it's apparent to me that I did not understand some things they were talking about with regards to skills/content/engagement. Now I understand.

 

Only to go back to the OP and read that Lisa included others, too. To me it seemed after awhile that the thread was going in one certain direction, so I tried to say things that would allow more people to jump in and talk about their various "boxes" and how they get out of them. :lol:

 

I have wanted to see more discussions like this on these boards because the trend seems to be that everyone is now using curriculum or programs for everything. It wasn't always that way. Homeschool moms would choose their own reading lists and devise their own courses and there were delightful threads about the books we were reading and sharing with our kids.

 

I like these discussions, too.

 

It was clear after a month or two that the recommendations for chemistry were just not working for us. (Another story altogether.) So I jumped ship into uncharted territory using what was accessible for us. At the time, Jason was launching a wetlands program--and there is a salt marsh at the end of our street. Further, I had been contacted by another homeschooling mother who was assembling an Envirothon team. Would my son like to participate? The choice was clear. We abandoned chemistry and took advantage of what was readily available literally out the back door.

 

Uh, oh. See, now here is an example where I, in my current situation, might have to consider what Jane is talking about. I'm in my WTM-box-which-is-actually-out-of-the-box in my world, yet I might have to look outside THAT box, now. Because chemistry isn't going very well this year.

 

I think that some seem to be arguing that "out of the box" implies anti-textbook. I am unwilling to make that leap.

 

I'm glad I wasn't the only one who was understanding things that way.

 

Further, I think it is intimidating for some of us to feel that we can guide our children in academic areas where we lack comfort. For me, this was French. But that did not prevent me from learning the language with my son. Or should I say bumbling through....

 

It's scary! It's totally out-of-the-box for me! I don't know how to do these things I've never done before. I'm very much out of my comfort zone now with math/grammar/Latin/writing/logic. And yet, I do them because that is *my* way of accommodating *my* kids and getting out of the boxes that I see around *us.* If I didn't, I would feel that I wasn't giving them what they need for their lives.

 

You know I've seen many people say look to the end, look to where you want to end up and work backwards, but UNTIL NOW it never occurred to me that I was to be looking at SKILLS, not just courses. Does that make sense?

Where do you get the list?

 

Yes, totally makes sense to me. I've switched my thinking over from "Oh, wow, you mean we can study history from beginning until now, and read cool literature alongside it?? How fun!" to "Oh, OK, so there are skills involved here that we really should learn, in order that this cool history study might become more interesting when they are older." I've become all about skills, a little bit each day, and letting them delve into the content parts within somewhat of an organized system/routine, but their own choice of topics.

 

List: I've slowly derived mine from WTM/its resources/SWB's lectures/these boards. And actually, since WTM is so history/lit via reading/discussion/writing heavy, I've gleaned an idea about skills in other areas (like science and math) from these boards. Jane pointed me towards the Dolciani math books, and I love them. I've read long and involved threads (and saved some, I think) about science skills - had no clue there were skills to be learned in science. WTM briefly mentions art skills books for the various "learning stages," and I've acquired many of them, and WOW. A whole host of skills in these books, that WTM doesn't go into because of space.

 

Yours, Colleen's, and Elizabeth's observations and experiences are an equally necessary and important part of this conversation.

 

Thank you, Lisa.

 

I had to sit in a corner for two days trying to fit high standards (the way I interpreted it) with interest-led science. Oh how I wanted to be there but felt terribly intimidated.

 

:grouphug: When I was first interested in homeschooling, my teacher-mother would take me to various thrift stores and help me find good books to read to my then-toddler. I had no clue how to even pick out a children's picture book. She just kept showing me this and that, and telling me why she liked this one but not that one, and I eventually caught on that the story had to be *interesting*. So, if it interested me who was the adult, it was a well-written book and I would be able to read it to my toddler in an animated way. That's how we got started with the love of books. Anyway, when that toddler grew to 5 or 6, and when my mother would visit, I'd follow her around in the thrift stores asking, "So what's a curriculum?" "It's a plan, Colleen. You can come up with your own." "Uh, no I can't, I don't know how. I need a curriculum to start homeschooling next year." "No, Colleen, you don't." I'd show her a schooly looking book in the thrift store, and she'd say, "No, that's too stupid and dumbed down, don't use it." I'd show her a workbook, she'd say "No." :lol: She then started giving me ideas upon ideas of things to do at home with my kids, which was great. And fun. But then when ds got to grade 1 and I had no more clues about what to do (he'd already been reading for almost two years), and I couldn't "wing it" like my experienced teacher-mother could, and she wouldn't move to Canada to help me:lol:, I got WTM out of the library for the second time, and decided to use that plan. Because I was intimidated and just did. not. know. how. to. do. this. But, I've learned along the way (hey, I can teach kids how to read! I've actually done it with several kids other than my own! For pay! People actually wanted to pay *me* to do this!), and I'm sure you are learning, too.

 

What happens when learning disabilities, extreme giftedness, or quirky personalities push us to move beyond the norms in teaching?

 

And getting back to this, to qualify my previous posts that attempted to respond to this post, I jumped in on the basis of one of the other two options (not learning disabilities, though each of my kids has had problems with learning certain things), which I won't name because I think one of my kids is going to ask someday to sign on here and read my past posts!!!:lol: They already know my posting name, so I can't hide. :D

[Colleen in NS]

When I think of working "outside the box," I think of teaching in a way that is atypical from the norm.

 

This was a way more effective and completely backwards way of teaching the material. The goal was to master working with negative numbers, not to master working with negative numbers the one and only right way. I accommodated the student. Actually, in this case I accommodated myself. I teach note-taking the same way-backwards. This wasn't fun and it wasn't particularly engaging.

 

Thanks for defining. This is how I think of it, too.

[prairiegirl]

I deleted this as it came across as whiney.

Edited January 23, 2011 by prairiegirl

[peacefully]

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[JulieD]

Yes, a little frustration is OK. But not desperation. My theory is to play to their strengths while gradually working on their weaknesses. If writing is a struggle, don't make every subject every day writing intensive. But have them write a little something every day, maybe a larger something once a week or so.

 

My son struggled so much with handwriting in the younger years, I felt so behind when we got to middle school. But he is making progress, and I can see we will get to where we need to be by high school. (For me, that would involve being able to write a coherent report on something. I'm not going to worry about persuasive writing until high school.)

 

Your experience in graduate school is interesting. Think how much easier it would have been to gradually learn how to think that way instead of being thrown into it. Also, you already had confidence in yourself because you had succeeded in your strengths. What if you'd never felt successful before? Would you still have had the courage to persevere?

 

Julie D.

[Guest]

I gave my grad school example because it was exactly what Jackie was hypothetically describing, only my experience wasn't hypothetical. I am linear, parts-to-whole, verbal, rather analytical. Design classes are not about those strengths. It was pretty brutal to learn to take on a different set of thinking skills, but I did learn to stretch myself there. I did learn about design process and spatial thinking, even though these will never be my strengths. But it was frustrating!! It was not boring — so it's not like the textbook examples that Jackie has been giving — but it was awful to be so out of my element. But I still did it.

 

So how does this apply to writing and what our expectations are? Obviously, we still want our kids to learn how to write, but do we let our reluctant writers work on discussion and reasoning skills with little writing practice? Is a little frustration okay here? I know the answers are going to depend on the child, but for the sake of discussion, I'm just posing the question. Do we try to get our kids beyond their reluctance by taking them through the skills that are difficult or "boring," or do we play to their strengths? I can see how using their interests or strengths would be a good way to "hook" them, give relevance to an assignment, or scaffold a skill so that it is more accessible. What happens when a child is asked to stretch beyond what is immediately interesting? Or when the skills become challenging to to the point of frustration?

 

 

I think a crucial aspect of your design class experience was that you chose it; you wanted to do it; and you were willing to endure the frustrations because you had chosen it and you wanted the end result.

 

I'll put a bit of a different slant on this: I finished The Battle Hymn of the Chinese Tiger Mother two days ago -- that book everyone is up in arms about, where the mother pushes her kids to an extreme degree. The book is largely about the girls' music experiences, which take place outside of school, so it has a lot of relevance for homeschoolers.

 

At any rate, one daughter did well under this plan. The other did not. At one point she had a full-out meltdown (in Red Square, of all places) and frightened her mother into the realization she was on the edge of losing her child. This was over the mother's belief that her dd loved violin and would appreciate -- now and/or later -- being stretched to her limits to pursue it. After the meltdown, the daughter told her mother she wanted to play, but not to focus her entire life around the violin. She quit one of her orchestra positions. A few months later, she let go of even more and turned to tennis.

 

At one point she saw her mother researching tennis coaches and strategy books on the internet and she was furious. This was HER passion, HER activity, and she wanted her mother to stay out of it, not control it or try to shape it.

 

So, regarding frustration... it has been my experience with dd that when her activities, intellectual or otherwise, are self-chosen and I do not try to step all over them and plan them for her, she will tolerate enormous amounts of frustration in the pursuit of what she wants. And indeed, as your grad school experience shows, don't we all?

 

The problem is when we ask kids to endure frustration in areas we think they need but they would never in a million years choose to do, or choose to do in this particular way. Perhaps this is why I allow dd to select so many aspects of what she reads and studies.

 

In areas she isn't particularly engaged with, although she knows she'll need them someday, like math (for physics) or biology, I don't push her or ask her to deal with as much frustration. I let her do the minimum as long as she can prove to me she understands what she's doing, either by discussion or by explaining how she approached a problem or by know why the answers are correct and/or wrong.

 

As I said in an earlier post, my dd, like Jackie's, lives in a world that is mostly outside her comfort zone. She deals with frustrations regarding her fine motor skills and some of the social aspects of Asperger's, every day, in every situation. So my attitude toward how much frustration is a positive thing is intimately related to those things, plus the pattern I observed noted above.

[Corraleno]

I think a crucial aspect of your design class experience was that you chose it; you wanted to do it; and you were willing to endure the frustrations because you had chosen it and you wanted the end result.

<snip>

The problem is when we ask kids to endure frustration in areas we think they need but they would never in a million years choose to do, or choose to do in this particular way. Perhaps this is why I allow dd to select so many aspects of what she reads and studies.

:iagree:

I think it's definitely important that kids — and adults, for that matter — stretch themselves and get out of their comfort zone sometimes. But unless it's something the person chooses to do, or at least the goal is something the person desires and considers worthwhile, it's not going to have much effect. Forcing a kid who hates to write to use a program he dislikes, to write about things he has no interest in, is really not going to accomplish much more than cementing his hatred of writing. Now, if the child who hates WWE happens to loves graphic novels, then teaching writing skills (plot, structure, grammar, descriptive language) by helping him write his own graphic novel would probably be waaaaay more effective. That child is still being stretched, they're still learning the writing skills they need to know, but they're motivated to do it because it's meaningful for them.

 

To me, teaching skills in a meaningful context (meaningful to the child) in a way that makes sense to the child, isn't coddling or refusing to push them, it's just creative teaching. And if the parent is afraid to let go of WWE (or whatever) and try something new, even though what they're using isn't working, then maybe the parent needs to think about getting out of their comfort zone, too, kwim?

 

Jackie

[jvenice]

“Man’s mind, once stretched by a new idea, never regains its original dimensions.†~ Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

 

I appreciate the great conversation this thread has offered. It is always interesting to hear the ideas of others in regard to education. They will always be varied and heated. That is the nature of education...we are all so passionate about it or we wouldn't be homeschooling.

[elegantlion]

:iagree:

 

To me, teaching skills in a meaningful context (meaningful to the child) in a way that makes sense to the child, isn't coddling or refusing to push them, it's just creative teaching. And if the parent is afraid to let go of WWE (or whatever) and try something new, even though what they're using isn't working, then maybe the parent needs to think about getting out of their comfort zone, too, kwim?

 

Jackie

 

Oh, the comfort zone is so familiar though. :D Teaching writing stresses because it's one of the subjects where my son struggles, yet writing always came easy to me. Not that my ramblings here make sense, my teachers loved my writing. It was easy and never anything I considered work.

 

So as I've read more about the teaching of writing I felt like we needed a program, or *I* needed a program so I didn't mess it up. It seems much easier to let go in other subjects. I wonder why? Off to ponder (think Gumby, be flexible, think Gumby, be flexible). :D

[Corraleno]

Do we try to get our kids beyond their reluctance by taking them through the skills that are difficult or "boring," or do we play to their strengths?

I think if something is really difficult for a child (and by that I mean they're really struggling, not just that the skill doesn't come instantly and naturally to them), then it may be that the explanations aren't clear enough, or it's being presented in a mode the child doesn't respond to, or it may be that the child just isn't developmentally ready for that skill and waiting a little while will eliminate a whole lot of frustration for everyone.

 

I'm always surprised when I hear parents (and this isn't directed at you, yllek) insist that some subjects are just inherently boring, and life is full of boring things, and kids need to get used to that. Why? If my kids find something truly boring, I change the way I teach it. For example, here's a game I made up to teach parts of speech — a topic most kids seem to find quite boring. I write a series of parts of speech spaced out across the top of a page, with a series of numbered lines under it, e.g.:

ART/# ADJ ADJ ADJ N V ADV CONJ V ADV PREP ART ADJ ADJ N

1.______________________________________________________________

2. ______________________________________________________________

etc., up to 10.

 

I print it out in landscape format. I have DD write an article or number on the beginning of each line, then I fold the left side of the paper under, so DS can't see what she wrote, and I have him write adjectives on each line. Then I fold that part back and have DD write the next part of speech, etc., until the page is full. Then we unfold the paper, read the sentences, and they fall over laughing. If DD wrote a number in the first column, then we need to go through that sentence and pluralize the noun (do we add s or es? do we need to change the y to i before we add es? etc), then make sure the verbs agree. None of this feels like "school work" and it's certainly not boring. DD likes the game so much she's taken to writing her own patterns on the big chalkboard in the kitchen, and DH, DS, and I compete to write the funniest sentences. When the pattern she writes doesn't work (modifying a noun with an adverb, forgetting the verb), then I can ask her to figure out why the sentences don't sound right and what we need to do to fix them. It's every bit as effective as slogging through a grammar workbook, and nobody (in this house anyway) thinks it's boring.

 

Jackie

[Colleen in NS]

do we let our reluctant writers work on discussion and reasoning skills with little writing practice? Is a little frustration okay here? I know the answers are going to depend on the child, but for the sake of discussion, I'm just posing the question. Do we try to get our kids beyond their reluctance by taking them through the skills that are difficult or "boring," or do we play to their strengths? I can see how using their interests or strengths would be a good way to "hook" them, give relevance to an assignment, or scaffold a skill so that it is more accessible. What happens when a child is asked to stretch beyond what is immediately interesting? Or when the skills become challenging to to the point of frustration?

 

My ds got frustrated plenty of times during his first years of learning writing skills. He had a hard time with handwriting, and I unknowingly asked for too much at times. But then I started learning about how to slowly build him up to being able to write a few sentences about something he read (instead of worrying because he couldn't write 3 or 4 paragraphs in grade 3), so that improved things significantly. It lessened his frustration. But I still was convinced that he needed to learn these skills over time - it's just that the timeline grew longer and that was a relief. So we kept going in a simple weekly routine. I certainly joked with him at times, "Oh, boy, aren't you glad you don't have to write out 5-6 sentences anymore?" And he laughs, but I don't think those times of frustration have done any lasting damage to him. Sure, it's big in his mind, but today? Today he has improved SO MUCH in those skills that I deemed important. And HE is proud of himself that he knows how to order ideas in a paragraph and write those ideas into a paragraph of his own words.

 

If the actual skills become so challenging that it's a frustration causing a child to want to quit, well then you back off and figure out where to begin again. Is the skill too advanced? Is it content he isn't interested in? I read here all the time about kids in whatever equivalent grade my son is in at any one time; kids who can read a few books about a topic, and whip out a one or two page report on that topic. It ain't happening here. And I won't push it, because without the outline/rewrite practice, ds doesn't know how to write those compositions.

 

So I figure that while dictation was frustrating to him at times, and we fumbled along with narrations, the frustration hasn't stopped him from grasping these skills, because I did keep plugging along with teaching them to him, a bit at a time.

 

As I said in an earlier post, my dd, like Jackie's, lives in a world that is mostly outside her comfort zone. She deals with frustrations regarding her fine motor skills and some of the social aspects of Asperger's, every day, in every situation. So my attitude toward how much frustration is a positive thing is intimately related to those things, plus the pattern I observed noted above.

 

I can see now how I misunderstood some of your earlier comments. :D

 

Now, if the child who hates WWE happens to loves graphic novels, then teaching writing skills (plot, structure, grammar, descriptive language) by helping him write his own graphic novel would probably be waaaaay more effective. That child is still being stretched, they're still learning the writing skills they need to know, but they're motivated to do it because it's meaningful for them.

 

I hear you on the comments about finding material that the child likes, to write about. I agree. We do that; it totally makes sense to me to use content that interests, in order to teach the skills.

 

But if my dd hated WWE (and there are plenty of days when she doesn't want to do dictation, even though I pick material she likes - she has her own particular struggles with remembering words and phrases, and with spelling), I wouldn't be able to use writing a novel as a different means to teach. To me, the skills you listed above are not really what WWE (the skills I think are necessary for my kids) teaches. So, I'd have to find a WWE alternative that taught what narration and dictation teach. And being me (not a curriculum-hopper), and being in my particular situation (need to be frugal), I would rather figure out how to adapt WWE to dd's needs. As long as I understand what WWE is trying to accomplish and I know that's what I want to accomplish, I can adapt it to dd on her days of being frustrated by not remembering phrases and by spelling. As for the novel, I am figuring that these skills that she sometimes doesn't like to practice are going to be the foundation in case she ever does want to write a novel. She already does creative writing on her own, whereas ds hardly ever did. She loves to write little stories, poems, lists, etc., and they are interesting! If I tried to use those as part of her "writing curriculum," her imagination would dry up.

 

I guess my philosophy is to "read" my children, read educational books and figure out what my children really need, and then set about accomplishing that, even if it's boring and frustrating sometimes. I think that parents can't provide the perfect learning environment all the time - we mess up, and we fix things.

[Colleen in NS]

I'm always surprised...Why? If my kids find something truly boring, I change the way I teach it.

 

I admire people like you (and my teacher-mother) who can dream up ways to change potentially boring things so they aren't boring. I can see why you're surprised - it seems to come naturally to you. But it doesn't to other people (like me). Although, if I come across ideas on how to change something that isn't working super well, I will try them. For example, the other day, someone posted an idea for me, on how to change somethingorother I was asking about, and it was a lightbulb moment for me. It didn't mean I tossed out the skill book I was using, and it didn't mean that I spend a lot of time trying to figure out new ways of teaching something; it just meant that it was a new way to use a part of the book, when that "too much frustration" came up. I still accomplished what I set out to do, which was to deliberately teach the skill.

Edited January 24, 2011 by Colleen in NS

[HappyGrace]

If my kids find something truly boring, I change the way I teach it. For example, here's a game I made up to teach parts of speech

 

See, but that's a GIFT-to be able to come up with that cool teaching concept that you did in order to get outside the box.

 

Some people are not able to do that (raising hand). I can do that in some of the subjects, some of the time, but not enough to make a cohesive curriculum from it.

 

BUT I can do it a lot better for my younger ds now that I have taught the subject matter to my older. Now I *know* it and can teach it in my own way. I could not have done that with the older dc.

 

I wish I could approach all subject matter that way. I could if I had unlimited time or a better imagination, but alas, I have neither. Curriculum is my fall-back.

 

(I have only been able to peek in and read bits of this thread and the other, so my apologies if this was mentioned!)

 

ETA: I guess I was cross-posting with Colleen! :)

[Guest]

So far, if something is truly boring, DD is the one who finds a different way to learn it.

 

Yes, there have been times when I've taken off with one of her interests -- writing Star Trek math problems, for instance, or finding the book with chapters on Klingon, or buying a game like Lie-brary; this happened much more often when she was smaller. Now, by and large, perhaps because she was intimately involved in thinking up things she wanted to do with books, maps, numbers, and such from the very beginning at age four and a half, she has plenty of ideas about what tack she'd like to take. Or sometimes she'll tell me what she is interested in studying, and together we'll compile a list of possible resources that she then chooses from.

 

I love to find out-of-the-way books for her, or build on her interests; but she's the one generally in charge. Again, she's a bit older than many of the kids we're describing, but she knows how to research to find games, ideas, books, activities. I find when I try to do too much of this or control the direction she takes too often, however creative and wonderful the results seem to me, it goes over like a deflated balloon.

 

There are exceptions. Math, as I've said, is one of the areas where we just compromised on a textbook and she tolerates it. She is so nervous of handling chemicals and flame that of her own accord she would never do a single experiment, so dh is working with her in this area, largely on getting her comfortable with procedures and finding ways for her to feel safer around the materials (sometimes she stands across the yard while he does things involving explosions or lots of flames). However, she does find equations interesting, so dh spends lots of time with her on working with them. It's a joint process, a dialogue, a conversation, about the means and methods of her education. This takes a LOT of the pressure off me in some ways, which is good because dealing with an Aspie who's also a teenager is plenty stress-filled in general.

[justamouse]

I think if something is really difficult for a child (and by that I mean they're really struggling, not just that the skill doesn't come instantly and naturally to them), then it may be that the explanations aren't clear enough, or it's being presented in a mode the child doesn't respond to, or it may be that the child just isn't developmentally ready for that skill and waiting a little while will eliminate a whole lot of frustration for everyone.

 

I'm always surprised when I hear parents (and this isn't directed at you, yllek) insist that some subjects are just inherently boring, and life is full of boring things, and kids need to get used to that. Why? If my kids find something truly boring, I change the way I teach it.

Jackie

 

I admire people like you (and my teacher-mother) who can dream up ways to change potentially boring things so they aren't boring. I can see why you're surprised - it seems to come naturally to you. But it doesn't to other people (like me).

 

 

This is the crux.

 

Jackie, while we love your examples and they stretch out our own boundaries-MANY people can't teach like that because they don't know the materials well enough themselves and so they NEED those books.

 

This is why I said earlier in this thread (maybe? Somewhere recently) that a curriculum is an amazing thing--it has to teach the child where the child is at and how the child is bent, AND it has to perhaps be the scaffolding for the parent so the parent can teach.

 

Not everyone can look at something, take it apart and put it back together in a different way so that it can be seen from a different viewpoint. The most some homeschooling parents can do is keep switching curriculum until they both find what works for them and for some children, whose parent's aren't in that financial position, they have to learn by the way the parent can teach.

 

And, sometimes a parent can teach ONE subject with that level of gifting, but not another.

 

The more curricula that are out there-the better it is for both students and parents.

[PeterPan]

You know Karen, until your post it hadn't occurred to me that there could be a middle ground with this, that I could direct the things that need to be directed (math, unpleasantries), and let her create the structure for certain subjects. I had thought my options were *I* create it or it gets unschooled and tossed at her. It hadn't occurred to me to make her an active participant in the planning of it. Lightbulbs on! Doesn't TOG encourage something like this too? You're right, I think it's just that she was too young or not quite ready for it before. But now, certainly she would be (going into 7th), and that would take some of the strain off me (I hate history, HATE it, hate planning it, hate...) and still give her what she wants. It's the only thing I need to keep out of the box. Everything else is fine the way we're modifying.

 

Well cool, I appreciate it! Why is it I need to hear things 30K times before they sink in? :)

[Guest]

This is the crux.

 

MANY people can't teach like that because they don't know the materials well enough themselves and so they NEED those books.

 

I agree with you, to a large degree. But one reason this becomes a such a source of anxiety is the standard conception of what learning should look like: the teacher in charge, with a plan, explicitly lecturing, giving instructions, demonstrating, explaining, and requiring practice of the skill or demonstration of mastery of the content in some recognizable "schoolish" form.

 

To a great extent this whole prospect of out-of-the-box learning is an issue of parental comfort levels, and taking the leap of faith to let go of control in some areas and challenging our idea of what learning looks like. For instance, there are lots of games, many of which have been mentioned on a number of threads: games for math, science, and writing, board games and boxed games and games described in books. Many people feel quite comfortable using them as "enrichment." But using these games, not as enrichment but as a perfectly valid and legitimate -- and effective -- way of learning the same skills a child might find boring or drudgery in a workbook format: this requires that you change your educational worldview, your understanding of the ways in which learning happens.

 

I can completely understand being distrustful of the anecdotes of a few of us with quirky kids, thinking our experiences might not transfer over. But you can research studies on playing as a form of learning, read about Peggy Kaye and why she found a game format so appealing and effective for the kids she worked with, take time to research games and studies of learning through play with the same urgency and focus that many of us spend researching formal curricula.

 

There are different ways people have described approaching logic -- for instance, Jackie decided to move from logic workbooks and a formal written logic program to chess for the moment because she thought that might suit her child's manner of processing and learning better than a written program. Say that sounds appealing to you, because you think your kid is also a visual-spatial learner. But you yourself don't know how to play chess (as I do not). Why not ask of yourself the same tolerance for working against your leanings, the same ability to move past frustration in order to learn something, that you routinely ask of your child: learn to play chess right alongside him or her. Or have your child teach you; sit on the other side of the teacher-student equation for a while and see how your child does, and how you respond.

 

It's not necessary to let go of all curricula, invent lovely hands-on courses of study in herpetology or robotics or science fiction, or use games for every subject, to see what learning outside of the box is like for you and your kids. But it may require rethinking some assumptions or conventions about how learning works, or learning to think of your role as something other than the one who makes assignments, must always explicitly instruct, and stands over a restless kid making sure he keeps focus and shows all his work.

 

This is terribly hard, and terribly anxiety-making. I know this full well, because that's what it's like at the beginning making that leap into the unknown. And your kids might have trouble adjusting to this new model too. That's why it needn't be an all-or-nothing proposition, and it needn't require you to be endlessly inventive, like the Mary Poppins of education, always with a wonderful surprise in store. If it did, I for one would certainly never have tried it.

 

Doing things otherwise, or against the norm, is going to look different for everybody, and most people aren't going to go anywhere near where I've gone out of dire need, with my particular child. I'm talking about an extreme that I'm sure frightens or horrifies most people silly. But I didn't get there all at once, and as I've said, I didn't get there alone, by doing it all. And most importantly, I don't sit here feeling wonderfully smug about how well it all works, all the time. Jenn and Jackie have talked me down from the heights of panic a number of times and I hope I've also been frank about the areas in which we don't manage it the way I imagine it could be done.

 

In other words, stepping away from the security of curricula may be the most tremendous intellectual adventure a great deal of the time, but it's also continually scary and difficult. But then, so is following a list and checking off boxes. I don't see many of us feeling absolutely, 100% assured that we've come up with the best possible education in every single subject, every day, every year, for every child! All homeschooling is perennially scary and difficult. That's why we have such a fondness for chocolate, coffee, and stronger medicine; it's also why we need each other.

[prairiegirl]

Karen Anne, you have answered many of my questions with that one post. Thank you.

[Guest]

I don't know if this link will work, but there was an interesting article in the NYT today about a filmmaker who ripped up most of his one-acre lot to plant grapevines. He says he considers working in the vineyard as integral to his work as a filmmaker.

 

This is the kind of revision of how we think about learning, writing, and education that I'm reaching towards.

 

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/23/business/23proto.html?hp

[justamouse]

I agree with you, to a large degree. But one reason this becomes a such a source of anxiety is the standard conception of what learning should look like: the teacher in charge, with a plan, explicitly lecturing, giving instructions, demonstrating, explaining, and requiring practice of the skill or demonstration of mastery of the content in some recognizable "schoolish" form.

 

To a great extent this whole prospect of out-of-the-box learning is an issue of parental comfort levels, and taking the leap of faith to let go of control in some areas and challenging our idea of what learning looks like.

 

[snip]

 

But it may require rethinking some assumptions or conventions about how learning works, or learning to think of your role as something other than the one who makes assignments, must always explicitly instruct, and stands over a restless kid making sure he keeps focus and shows all his work.

 

 

 

I wholly agree with you here. I've learned this from my own experience.

 

I have one problem though.

 

I'll take math for an example because I am *wretched* at math.

 

I can find a curriculum that suits my child-and I have many in the curric graveyard that don't. But there is no way I could teach a child more than rudimentary math because I need the answers otherwise I am afloat in the middle of the ocean. Do I need to teach my children the math once I have the curric-no because they have problem books that spell out each step and vids that teach each portion. I cannot artfully add or subtract from that curriculum-I am completely unable.

 

Many people feel the same way whether it's just a poor subject of their own education or they may have nothing more than a HS education themselves and a poor one at that.

 

Chess? I could jump into the middle of that ocean. Math? no way in hell. There is just a level reached where my brain short circuits (I am obviously leaving out tutors and such as that may not be possible for a parent). The rest of the subjects I would feel comfortable with, I might splash about a lot, but we'll get there.

 

I constantly have to remind myself that my math is someone else's History-Grammar-Writing--what have you. It seems so simple to me, but to them we are wondering why don't they consider climbing Mt. Everest.

 

If I were to break out and try and teach my child math through a game-not only would I have no idea if the answers were right, but I would question the whole mode -not so much is this the way they SHOULD learn, I know learning zig-zags, but is what we are doing forming a good foundation or will it be a habit/teaching that they must later unlearn?

Edited January 24, 2011 by justamouse

[5LittleMonkeys]

To me, teaching skills in a meaningful context (meaningful to the child) in a way that makes sense to the child, isn't coddling or refusing to push them, it's just creative teaching. And if the parent is afraid to let go of WWE (or whatever) and try something new, even though what they're using isn't working, then maybe the parent needs to think about getting out of their comfort zone, too, kwim?

Jackie

 

This is where I am right now. I pulled all of her curricula out late last night to see what I could salvage and darn it if I didn't start pulling back in the same things that were giving us problems before! I gathered it all back up and stuck it back on the shelf. I was still trying to do what was comfortable to me. Then I had an epiphany as I was standing there looking at all of her canvases and paints. Here is what I wrote in another thread...

 

I have the workbooks and the whiteboards but because those things take grammar out of context it doesn't make sense to her and she can't make connections. What I'm talking about doing is taking her own writings; those that she knows intimately because she has already poured over them making them come as close as possible to her own thoughts and feelings, and showing her how to make them flow better, how to make them sound better, how to polish them so that others could read them and truly understand her exact meaning and feeling. (Which is always the goal of her artistic pursuits ... to share with others what is in her heart and mind.) When she writes its not much different than when she paints. She is trying to put herself onto the paper to share with others. When she paints she asks for help in getting the painting to look the way she has it pictured in her mind. We work on perspective, line, color, application...never on content (I never say..."paint this") and never out of context of the painting she is working on. In other words we don't put the painting aside and work on perspective on a separate canvas. I think I can do the same thing with writing. (And hopefully with math to a certain degree...but I'm still figuring that one out.)

 

I started wondering why I felt comfortable teaching her this way in art but not in any other subjects and I think the reason is because I don't feel the need for her to remember definitions, formulas...there is no sequence I feel I have to follow. She just paints and when she asks me about things that need to be improved or she wants to learn a certain technique to make her painting look the way she has envisioned, it then I work on it with her. It can be the same way with writing right? I'm really only interested in the end goal; a well written paper that is grammatically correct.

 

As far as stretching her...that is something we have to work on because of her frustration level. She stretches herself when it is something she is interested in (just as others here have said regarding their own dc) but in those areas that she does not like but still needs certain skills, that may not lend themselves as well to creative teaching, she has a much lower tolerance for difficulty. I think it will be more tolerable if only one or two things are a stretch vs. everything being that way, but I'm still going to try to find ways to to make even those as easy as possible. I only care that she does stretch her mind with something because I do believe there is a huge benefit to making your brain work hard, but I want it to be about something that means something to her, that is important to her because only then will it feel less like frustration and more like expanding her mind and truly learning. When she tries to do grade level math she gets stretched ... a lot, but at the end of the lesson she doesn't say, "Wow, that was a stretch but I sure learned a lot." No, she says, "Wow, that was incredibly frustrating, I'm glad it's over." The frustration got in the way of the learning. But when she spends 30 minutes trying to find the best price on art supplies because she only has so much $ to spend and she has to account for tax and shipping, she says, "Good grief that was hard but I finally found a way to get everything I wanted." I hope I explained that well. I have a 2yo chattering at me.:tongue_smilie:

[Cindy in NY]

I agree with you, to a large degree. But one reason this becomes a such a source of anxiety is the standard conception of what learning should look like: the teacher in charge, with a plan, explicitly lecturing, giving instructions, demonstrating, explaining, and requiring practice of the skill or demonstration of mastery of the content in some recognizable "schoolish" form.

 

To a great extent this whole prospect of out-of-the-box learning is an issue of parental comfort levels, and taking the leap of faith to let go of control in some areas and challenging our idea of what learning looks like.

 

 

I think this is the heart of the matter. If you believe that learning is best done in a teacher centered model, the way it is done in most classrooms, then this whole outside-the-box thing is probably just going to seem confusing and impossible to you.

 

You either have to have a need to climb out of the box, like dealing with a different kind of learner or a rejection of the idea that learning needs to look like what happens in a standard classroom. I think for some people who feel that they can't pull it off, that they need the curriculum to tell them what and how to teach, maybe it is just not their thing. Nothing wrong with that.

 

I have been homeschooling for 13 years. I have dabbled in every kind of educational theory I could find. I spent years like that dog in UP, distracted by every squirrel that came by. It took a good while for me to figure out that learning didn't have to look a certain way and it IS a huge leap of faith. But it really wasn't a leap, it was a little here and a little there, until one day I realized I was waaay out there.

 

Not everyone wants to hang that far out!

[Guest]

I wholly agree with you here. I've learned this from my own experience.

 

I have one problem though.

 

I'll take math for an example because I am *wretched* at math.

 

I can find a curriculum that suits my child-and I have many in the curric graveyard that don't. But there is no way I could teach a child more than rudimentary math because I need the answers otherwise I am afloat in the middle of the ocean. Do I need to teach my children the math once I have the curric-no because they have problem books that spell out each step and vids that teach each portion. I cannot artfully add or subtract from that curriculum-I am completely unable.

 

Many people feel the same way whether it's just a poor subject of their own education or they may have nothing more than a HS education themselves and a poor one at that.

 

Chess? I could jump into the middle of that ocean. Math? no way in hell. There is just a level reached where my brain short circuits (I am obviously leaving out tutors and such as that may not be possible for a parent). The rest of the subjects I would feel comfortable with, I might splash about a lot, but we'll get there.

 

I constantly have to remind myself that my math is someone else's History-Grammar-Writing--what have you. It seems so simple to me, but to them we are wondering why don't they consider climbing Mt. Everest.

 

If I were to break out and try and teach my child math through a game-not only would I have no idea if the answers were right, but I would question the whole mode -not so much is this the way they SHOULD learn, I know learning zig-zags, but is what we are doing forming a good foundation or will it be a habit/teaching that they must later unlearn?

 

That's why I said it's not an all-or-nothing proposition. Don't do it with subjects you feel this way about! Math was the last subject I felt able to let go of in terms of textbooks and curricula; I did it not from some pedagogical philosophy that outside the curricular box was better, but because my dd's dysgraphia at that point prevented her from doing written math. Once I started, I felt freer, I researched more, it became easier - until we hit algebra, that is. We're back at textbooks. But I wouldn't tell anyone that math "should" or "should not" be approached in any particular manner, or that one way is more superior to another for any individual family. I'd just say that it's a subject that CAN BE available for thinking about differently, if you are interested in pursuing it for any reason, whether it's your child's predilections or your own wishes. There are books for those who wish to learn more about doing math otherwise. There's material out there; it's just not going to come into your line of vision if what you research is exclusively curricula.

 

And also, that's why I encourage putting some of the "teaching" onto the kids. You have a group; they can figure out how to play mathematical games like Gobblet or Pentominoes, or the young kids can play Dino Math, or you can use suggestions for activities -- which are not things with "right answers" -- from books like Family Math. Older kids can watch PBS programs on fractals or cracking spy codes. Not all math "outside the box" has to come in game form, and not all games have to be about computation or equations.

[Guest]

I have dabbled in every kind of educational theory I could find. I spent years like that dog in UP, distracted by every squirrel that came by.

 

I love all of what you say, but this image -- it's priceless!

[Colleen in NS]

Question for those who keep using the word "quirky" to describe their children: What exactly does quirky mean in your mind? It seems to me that it's being used somewhat exclusively. But I'd say that quirky applies to every human, because we are all unique, and we all have quirks because of that uniqueness. So, to clear up any misunderstanding I might have, will you tell me what quirky means to you in your posts?

 

for some children, whose parent's aren't in that financial position, they have to learn by the way the parent can teach.

 

That would be us. And actually, needing to be frugal has actually forced me to be more creative, more determined to learn to adapt what I have/think is necessary/is affordable, to my kids.

 

Originally Posted by justamouse View Post

This is the crux.

 

MANY people can't teach like that because they don't know the materials well enough themselves and so they NEED those books.

 

But one reason this becomes a such a source of anxiety is the standard conception of what learning should look like: the teacher in charge, with a plan, explicitly lecturing, giving instructions, demonstrating, explaining, and requiring practice of the skill or demonstration of mastery of the content in some recognizable "schoolish" form.

 

Because of how I'm interpreting justamouse's comment, I'm not sure that this answers what justamouse was saying. I know you largely agreed with that comment, but what you go on to say as "one reason" is not true about why I sometimes get anxious. Sure, that is one reason, but it is not the case for everyone. I'm just hoping people will accept that.

 

I don't make my "school" into some kind of recognizable school form - my memory of school form was sitting there passively listening to a lecture and then doing homework. We don't do that stuff here at home. I go through the book (be it grammar, math, Latin, or logic) with my kids, learn the skills with them, mentally answer the questions to myself while they answer me orally, and breathe another sigh of relief when it's done, that I was able to understand yet another new skill and help them understand. What makes me anxious is that 1. it's all new skill for me, and 2. The book is the only solid way I know how to get these skills learned. I have to have something I can trust to help me teach - I can't trust pulling together lots of different ideas for the core skill work, because I don't KNOW what all is involved in a certain skill set.

 

I love looking for other materials at the library and thrift stores - books, games, toys (though not so much anymore now that they are older), other "creative" materials that strike my eye (my teacher-mother is VERY helpful in this)....but for the necessities I depend on my "how to teach" books. And as an aside, these "how to teach" books are not all about standing up in front of my kids, lecturing at them while they sit passively.

 

Why not ask of yourself the same tolerance for working against your leanings, the same ability to move past frustration in order to learn something, that you routinely ask of your child: learn to play chess right alongside him or her. Or have your child teach you; sit on the other side of the teacher-student equation for a while and see how your child does, and how you respond.

 

Yep, we do these things, too.

 

If I were to break out and try and teach my child math through a game-not only would I have no idea if the answers were right, but I would question the whole mode -not so much is this the way they SHOULD learn, I know learning zig-zags, but is what we are doing forming a good foundation or will it be a habit/teaching that they must later unlearn?

 

Me too.

 

I encourage putting some of the "teaching" onto the kids. You have a group; they can figure out how to play mathematical games like Gobblet or Pentominoes, or the young kids can play Dino Math, or you can use suggestions for activities -- which are not things with "right answers" -- from books like Family Math. Older kids can watch PBS programs on fractals or cracking spy codes. Not all math "outside the box" has to come in game form, and not all games have to be about computation or equations.

 

We do a lot of this stuff. But I still need my books to make sure the things I deem absolutely necessary are getting done properly - and by properly, I mean *in a way that my kids will understand and learn from.*

Edited January 24, 2011 by Colleen in NS

[Embassy]

Do we try to get our kids beyond their reluctance by taking them through the skills that are difficult or "boring," or do we play to their strengths? I can see how using their interests or strengths would be a good way to "hook" them, give relevance to an assignment, or scaffold a skill so that it is more accessible. What happens when a child is asked to stretch beyond what is immediately interesting? Or when the skills become challenging to to the point of frustration?

 

 

If my kids are bored I am doing something wrong. Learning is fun. For us it doesn't mean abandoning all curricula. I do use it in some subjects like math and foreign languages, but I try to adapt that curricula to help keep learning fun. We did take a sideways leap into living math this year and I've been very pleased with that choice. If a child is frustrated with challenging skills then I would need to step back and give him more practice with a previous skill before moving on.

 

I challenge my kids and some might say I challenge them too much. I don't make everything easy, but I try to keep it fun. I constantly evaluate how they respond to different things. I want them to have a sense of wonder about the world and embrace all learning as an enjoyable activity. It is a work in progress. I treasure baby steps in that direction. This year I've seen my oldest grow to really like math when he disliked it previously. I've seen my younger son grow to have a strong interest in science and history when he didn't care much about them earlier.

[Cindy in NY]

I think for most of us that approach learning differently, we are more off the beaten path with some subjects and more mainstream with others. I don't think textbooks are the ideal way to learn most things but that doesn't mean I don't EVER use one.

 

For us, algebra is a combination of a couple of texts and LOF and Math Counts club.

 

My 13 year old loves Latin. LOVES it! Does it for fun in his spare time. He uses Latin Prep. Then he spends a LOT of time explaining it all to me (in great detail). I don't teach it, or study it on my own, but I am able to keep up and help him when he is stumped because he has taught me everything he has learned.

 

I have a whole room full of texts and curriculum. I use it when it works for me.

[Embassy]

I'm always surprised when I hear parents (and this isn't directed at you, yllek) insist that some subjects are just inherently boring, and life is full of boring things, and kids need to get used to that.

 

My kids find anything to do with housework boring. I don't blame them. I find it incredibly boring too. I've found that if I find something boring my kids do as well. If I find a subject exciting they are more likely to catch onto that excitement. So, I approach subjects in a way I find exciting and interesting. People often ask me why I do x, y, or z when only a and b are necessary. If I only did a and b I would be incredibly bored. As a teacher I need to be excited about the subject I am teaching. So I have to find ways to approach subjects that will spark my interest and enthusiasm. And in do doing I am better prepared to instill in my children a passion for learning about the subject.

 

Education is not the filling of a pail, but the lighting of a fire.

William Butler Yeats

Edited January 24, 2011 by Wehomeschool

[Corraleno]

n/m

Edited January 24, 2011 by Corraleno
typos

[Guest]

We do a lot of this stuff. But I still need my books to make sure the things I deem absolutely necessary are getting done properly - and by properly, I mean *in a way that my kids will understand and learn from.*

 

And this is why some of us choose "otherwise" as a primary means of working with our kids -- because THAT is the way our kid will understand and learn from. That is my working definition of having a kid that is quirky.

 

If you're happy with the way you're doing things, I guess I'm not clear why you're looking to change them? Or thinking about doing things outside the particular box -- not using this in a negative sense, but as in the course of things you've found that work -- you have put together for your family? The original slant of the thread was about kids who seem, for whatever reason, to require something other than that curriculum or way of going about "school" the parent has set up. Is that the case for you, or is there something else at work? Or maybe it's just looking around to see if an alternate approach is something you want to play with in your mind (I do this a lot)?

[Guest]

If I find a subject exciting they are more likely to catch onto that excitement. So, I approach subjects in a way I find exciting and interesting. People often ask me why I do x, y, or z when only a and b are necessary. If I only did a and b I would be incredibly bored. As a teacher I need to be excited about the subject I am teaching. So I have to find ways to approach subjects that will spark my interest and enthusiasm. And in do doing I am better prepared to instill in my children a passion for learning about the subject.

 

How lovely! I am so nostalgic for the days when this worked! A teenager is a whole different kettle of fish...

[Corraleno]

Question for those who keep using the word "quirky" to describe their children: What exactly does quirky mean in your mind? It seems to me that it's being used somewhat exclusively. But I'd say that quirky applies to every human, because we are all unique, and we all have quirks because of that uniqueness. So, to clear up any misunderstanding I might have, will you tell me what quirky means to you in your posts?

I think "quirky" is just shorthand for a kid with any kind of learning difference, including giftedness. A lot of what probably look like "LD accommodations" for my son, and for Karen's DD as well, are actually more in response to our kids' low tolerance for repetition and boredom and insistence that their work be meaningful and not just busy work, which is much more of a gifted issue than an LD issue.

 

And, while the shift in our perceptions of our roles may have been accelerated by having quirky kids, the philosophy behind it is not something that's only applicable to them. I have an 8 yo daughter who is entirely "normal" (other than being unbelievably cute :D), and I'm educating her the same way.

 

Jackie

[justamouse]

OTOH, some of us see our roles not as substitute teachers but as "learning facilitators," and we see education as the learning that happens every minute a child is awake. And that shift in mindset is huge. Once you make that shift, you just naturally start finding ways to incorporate learning into daily life, whether that's calculating the area & circumference of every round thing in the kitchen on Pi Day, or grabbing a globe and a flashlight to answer a question about time zones, or pausing a nature documentary or political ad to ask questions and discuss things. When that is your perspective, then you don't feel like a poorly trained, barely qualified substitute teacher; you know you're the most qualified learning facilitator your child could possibly have.

 

Jackie

 

That is not true.

 

I have subjects I teach like you stated above, and my house is the same way-learning is not done during a certain portion of the day-it is an all day affair. But you will never see me make up a game to help my kid with something they can't learn in algebra 2. There is no dichotomy and knowing that I needs that help doesn't make me feel poorly trained and barley qualified. It's just me, knowing that I am not Atlas and knowing my own limitations.

[justamouse]

My 'quirky' is quirky. :D A repetitive tapping when he is thinking. The way he pulls at his nails when he can't get something. The way he looks at me when he is gauging my reasoning. When he was little and would listen to music hours on end, he would flutter his fingers. You know, quirky. :D

[Colleen in NS]

OTOH, some of us see our roles not as substitute teachers but as "learning facilitators," and we see education as the learning that happens every minute a child is awake. And that shift in mindset is huge. Once you make that shift, you just naturally start finding ways to incorporate learning into daily life, whether that's measuring and calculating the area & circumference of every round thing in the kitchen on Pi Day, or grabbing a globe and a flashlight to answer a question about time zones, or pausing a nature documentary or political ad to ask questions and discuss things. When that is your perspective, then you don't feel like a poorly trained, barely qualified substitute teacher; you know you're the most qualified learning facilitator your child could possibly have.

 

Jackie

 

I do these things, too, and know that I am my children's facilitator of learning. But I also see myself as their teacher-of-certain-things-that-I-am-unsure-of-how-to-teach. And I am poorly trained, that is a fact. But I don't subscribe to the 9-2 and then we're off mentality.

 

And this is why some of us choose "otherwise" as a primary means of working with our kids -- because THAT is the way our kid will understand and learn from. That is my working definition of having a kid that is quirky.

 

In your definition of quirky kid, are quirky kids in the minority? They aren't in mine. I'm trying to figure out if our concepts of "quirky kid" are the same or different. Then I'll understand your posts better.

 

If you're happy with the way you're doing things, I guess I'm not clear why you're looking to change them? Or thinking about doing things outside the particular box

 

I'm not looking to change anything I'm doing...did something I say make you think that? Though I'm unconfident about teaching certain skills without my books, I'm confident that our overall place outside of our box is working well for us *for now.* When I run into snags of "extreme frustration," I look for a new idea or two, or ask for help here on the boards. But overall I'm not constantly looking for new ideas or new ways to change things. For all the reasons I've already mentioned in previous posts.

 

The original slant of the thread was about kids who seem...to require something other than that curriculum or way of going about "school" the parent has set up. Is that the case for you, or is there something else at work?

 

Something else is at work - my interpretation of the original slant of the thread seems to be different than yours. My interpretation was that Lisa had questions (see quote below) about how people did things - her questions are in past tense. So I tried to answer those from my own experience. I consider us to be out of the box that *I* saw as being a box, so I talked about how we did (past tense to answer her questions) and do that.

 

I kept posting and asking questions, because at one point I started thinking that there was just one box that people were talking about (relying on a plan or textbooks; whereas a plan and textbooks were outside *my* box), and I didn't think Lisa meant it that way. I thought her "box" was wide open for definition.

 

How did you get to that point? How did you make the change? What tools did you have on hand that help you? What tools do you feel you need? Where would you encourage someone that is struggling to start from?

Edited January 24, 2011 by Colleen in NS

[Colleen in NS]

I think "quirky" is just shorthand for a kid with any kind of learning difference, including giftedness.

 

So, I'm assuming you're talking about kids who have behaviour or development differences that are outside the majority of kids in general? Alright, that makes things a little clearer to me, now, too!!

 

That is not true.

 

My 'quirky' is quirky. :D A repetitive tapping when he is thinking. The way he pulls at his nails when he can't get something. The way he looks at me when he is gauging my reasoning. When he was little and would listen to music hours on end, he would flutter his fingers. You know, quirky. :D

 

So now I find it interesting that you have a quirky-like-Corraleno's definition, and yet stand right inside your math-textbook box. :D

 

I really need to get some sleep. :D Has anyone had that Pete Seeger song go through their head yet, about "Little Boxes......and they all had ticky-tacky and they all looked just the same?" or something like that. Well, none of our boxes look the same here!!! :lol:

[Corraleno]

n/m

Edited January 24, 2011 by Corraleno

[justamouse]

 

So now I find it interesting that you have a quirky-like-Corraleno's definition, and yet stand right inside your math-textbook box. :D

 

 

 

I can comfortably teach what math skills I have mastered. Say for instance long division-I can see why they're going to get something wrong, I can see why they answered something wrong and show them how to change their thinking on how to get it right. I can play with it. I know it enough to a certain level to have elasticity. But there reaches a certain point where I can't play with it anymore and I rely on those who know more than me.

 

I had such a horrid experience with learning math in school that I am still scarred. I don't want that for my kids. It took me a long time to find what works for them (Singapore)-and had I to do it by myself it would have never worked. Only in finding what worked for them was I able to understand why it never worked for me.

 

So yes, this is me, standing firm inside my math textbooks. :001_smile:

 

And I am constantly reminding myself that other people have their 'math' boxes.

[8filltheheart]

Funny — I was just coming here to post the exact same thing. It occurred to me that what Karen and Jenn and Cindy and I are doing differently has less to do with curricula or learning differences than it does with how we envision our roles.

 

If a homeschool parent sees "education" as "the stuff that happens in schools" then they will tend to see the learning that happens while sitting at a table with a book or pencil, between the hours of 9 and 2 (or whatever), as "education" and the learning that happens outside of those parameters as "enrichment," and they will see their own role as akin to a substitute teacher. And it seems like many people here (I don't mean in this thread, but just from reading the various boards) feel like untrained, barely qualified teachers, terrified of screwing up their kids lives.

 

OTOH, some of us see our roles not as substitute teachers but as "learning facilitators," and we see education as the learning that happens every minute a child is awake. And that shift in mindset is huge. Once you make that shift, you just naturally start finding ways to incorporate learning into daily life, whether that's calculating the area & circumference of every round thing in the kitchen on Pi Day, or grabbing a globe and a flashlight to answer a question about time zones, or pausing a nature documentary or political ad to ask questions and discuss things. When that is your perspective, then you don't feel like a poorly trained, barely qualified substitute teacher; you know you're the most qualified learning facilitator your child could possibly have.

 

Jackie

 

 

 

I posted earlier in this thread that I don't think I am an "out of the box" homeschooler mainly b/c I think the idea that any homeschooler is actually "in a box" is counterintuitive. Anyone that has made the decision to homeschool is in reality automatically not "in a box." In the box.....those are the parents that wave bye to their kids as they climb on a bus and are completely clueless about what is going on educationally with their kids. Making the decision to pull kids home and deal with all that comes with it, that takes someone that is willing to buck the system, find an alternative path, and enrich their children's lives in every way and not just time on a clock.

 

Homeschoolers are the biggest innovators of unit studies, cross curriculum learning, hands on projects, eclectic approaches to education that I have witnessed. How many brick and mortar schools have kids building catapults or dissecting eye balls or mummifying chickens or apples?? Or hand pick curriculum to meet the individual child's needs?

 

I absolutely do not buy into the idea that the majority of parents that have taken on all of **this** view themselves as substitute teachers and that "education" has a time slot.

 

As a "learning facilitator" for almost 18 yrs, knowing when I am no longer able to "facilitate learning" does not mean I "feel like a poorly trained, barely qualified substitute teacher." It means that I can recognize when my children's skills require knowledge and expertise that surpass what I am capable of providing. Knowing my limitations allows a better outcome for my children.

 

The longer I homeschool, the more aware I am of just how much I don't know. Confronted with the world of knowledge, determining what to focus on and what to allow to pass and then determining what is the best way to help the child encounter it......well, it makes wearing stripes with plaids seem like a fashion statement.;)

Edited January 24, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[Corraleno]

I have clearly not communicated what I meant. I did say that I wasn't refering to anyone in this thread, but merely noting the many threads I've read on this board where people DID say that they felt unprepared, inadequately trained, terrified of screwing their kids up, etc. What I was trying to communicate was that if one does feel that way, then changing one's concept of one's role in one's child's education can help eliminate that fear. Clearly that did not come across.

 

Originally this thread was about Lisa asking how those who are "out of the box" get there, because she's thinking she might want to go more in that direction. It's turned into something else and I'm not even sure what.

 

We're all out of the box.

We're all great teachers.

Everybody's doing the best for their kids.

 

And I think I need to spend more time with my kids and less time on homeschooling boards.

 

Jackie

Edited January 24, 2011 by Corraleno

[swellmomma]

I am working on getting outside the box, but boy is it hard/scary. All 3 of my older kids have learning (and other) issues. I have always had a vision of what their education would look like, but they do not share that vision. I am not an unschooler, but our track record has not been great. I have the curriculums I pain stakingly researched, I have the plans I created, but the kids have always fought against much of it. I have always felt we were not accomplishing anything, but have been finding out differently. Due to the kids issues, they have been through tons of testing, ds12 is only 1 year behind in pretty much every subject- this is our 5th year homeschooling, so even though I have not been able to get him to complete a single curriculum he is learning- when he was in ps he was 2 years behind, so I am not worried about the 1 yr lag, I just thought it would be more kwim. DD has not been academically tested since she was 6, but seems to always impress people with her knowledge. Ds7 scared me the most, because he was struggling so much to read, to write, heck he couldn't even color. He even more than the other 2 has really taught me to relax and let him do it in his own time.

 

A funny thing happened though this year when I stopped worrying about teaching them and just focused on learning new things together. A) Turns out my kids LOVE unit studies, I mean LOVE them. For fun yesterday they were watching dvds on erosion and soils that matched up with our geology unit we just finished. I have started using board games, dvds and lapbooks much more in our schooling. I asked their opinion on various curricula, such as grammar rather than just sticking with what I thought was best. Turns out they want to do the work when they have chosen the program and like it.

 

DS12 who has fought against all forms of learning, enjoyed reading but would only read graphic novels etc suddenly decided he is going to be a paleonologist. He started checking every book he could find out of the library on dinosaurs. He has been reading various dinosaur encyclopedias etc. Then he decided to remember things he had to write a report on them. This boy would count out the number of words in a sentence and then the number of sentences in a paragraph if I assigned writing and would not write a single word/semtence more than I assigned. Suddenly he is writing 1/2-1 page reports on individual dinosaurs all on his own, they may still not be at the level I would like to see, but compared to past performance I will take it. He is watching videos about them, doing dig kits etc. Together we found out to be a paleontologist you have to major in geology or biology in university first, so he is focusing extra hard on our earth science study this year, reading books and watching videos in his spare time. All in preparation of this dream job of his. Science and writing are no longer a battle around here. I ditched the 4 yr history cycle, and jumped into a unit study on explorers, both he and dd are so enamored with it they want to make me use the various explorers as my topics for my theme planning at the daycare. They have even started writing 1/2-1 page reports on each explorer we study with virtually no prompting. Math is getting done, but they are retaining more (and learning new concepts faster) when we simply play board games together- they love games.

 

DD11 is extremely bright, I swear she learns by osmosis like a few of you have mentioned. She seems to already know half the stuff I had planned to teach her on any given day, and the other 1/2 she knows inside and out before I am halfway through my carefully planned lesson. A result of this is she has fought against "school" for years- both when she was in ps and since we began hsing. SHe does the unit studies etc with her brothers, but otherwise like them I have backed off in most areas. Since November she has gone from being barely able to draw to a blossoming artist. Her creativity is skyrocketing, Not just through drawing, but painting, ceramics, and any other crafty type stuff she can get her hands on. I see improvement on a near daily basis in her drawing in particular. Prior to this she did not like to draw, in fact she was extremely down on herself for her quality of work, now I seldom see her without a pencil and sketch book. This has translated over to her otehr actual subjects. Because she is seeing success in this creative area I have encouraged her creativity within our other subjects, which has made her look at things a different way and make the connections that were not clicking in place before.

 

I was clearing curric off of our school shelves that we had not touched at all since starting homeschooling, in those books was a few from the draw write now series. First she and then the boys snatched those up and have been following the directions to draw the various pictures, and ds7 has started to do the copywork from them on his own. I know if I had introduced those books as required for school, they would have fought it, instead they are begging me to order more from the series.

 

DS7 that has had me so worried about his reading, suddenly started making connections this week. The boy who could not read, or write. Never tried to spell much etc. The one who tested to have a phonologic delay of about 2 years, suddenly started writing books yesterday. Nothing fancy, a counting book of frogs on a log, and a simple dictionary. Most of his words are inventive spelling (buk = book etc), but I love the books. HE also started being able to read level 1 bob books, the day before. THis is the boy I was so worried about because of his reading. THe one that I kept introducing new phonics programs to because I thought the one before wasn't working or wasn't enough(I think for a few months there we were doing 4 different programs at once). I decided to drop everything other than the unit studies/lapbooks I was doing with him. I did OPGTR but only every 3rd day or so, and otherwise I just kept reading to him. I forced myself to relax (trust me that is a very very difficult thing to do for my anxiety riddled self), and without the extra pressure heaped on him the light bulb clicked on right when he was ready for it. Yesterday I caught him watching the leap frog coplex words dvd. He would pause the movie when the first word was introduced and write it down, then pause it again when the new word with the silent E was introduced and write it down. When the movie was over, he started coming up with any other words he could think of that had a silent E, sometimes he was right, sometimes he was not, but it was all on him. I had not even dreamed of teaching silent e yet, he could barely remember the sounds the letters made on their own kwim.

 

These kids have made me really start thinking about how to homeschool them to reach the vision I have without using the set curriculums etc that I envisioned using to get there. I am fearful of not challenging them enough, or having gaps etc, but they are teaching me to back off and let them discover this world around them for themselves.

 

This time of year I am normally researching curricula, planning out next year, ordering materials etc. This year is different, my shopping lists, include art materials, board games and various kits/ supplies, no curricula at all to be found on it at this point. The kids have been tossing ideas at me at every chance of what they want to learn about next, how they want to learn it, field trips they want to do, etc.

 

This has been a huge transition for me, and a great improvement for the kids. Working with them outside the box is not just about not using a boxed curriculum, for somethings we still do, it is about making that curriculum (or lack there of) work for your child(ren). I only wish I had more time in the day to give them even more freedom to learn like this. Unfortunately, with me working out of the house almost 7 hours a day they are limited to the time we have between shifts and on weekends. Surprisingly, since I have learned to follow their leads and such we have more time to follow bunny trails etc. I am not spending my weekends lessons planning, or battling for 3 hours over a 20 minute math assignment etc. We are getting so much more done this year than any of the years before. We are starting to actually enjoy each others company again, the boys are actually wanting to keep homeschooling, whereas all 3 were clamoring to be sent to ps(as my oldest put it so they wouldn't have to do any work) previously. You may find that once you give yourself permission to free yourself of the "box" that you actually have much more time to actually learn and explore the world together. If your child is like any of mine and school is like torture than you may find that approaching learning outside the box makes things much calmer, enjoyable and they retain so much more.

 

Now that I finally finished reading all the pages of this thread I wanted to add, that I still use a curric for most things, I just allow them to have more input on which one we chose, as well as finding better ways to reach our end goal. For example, The focus in science this year is earth science, I chose the topic, I chose the spines for each part of that, but I also made a point of including dvd's, lapbooks rather than traditional reports(though I give my ds the choice if he wants to write me a report since he is not thrilled with lapbooks), etc. In the end the kids still reach the goals etc I had in mind for them, just not through the typical textbook way kwim. They do not have free rein over their school day, I just find ways to work with them as a team rather than me vs them which is what our previous approach was becoming.

Edited January 24, 2011 by swellmomma
adding a few more thoughts despite my long windedness

[Colleen in NS]

DS7 that has had me so worried about his reading, suddenly started making connections this week. ...I did OPGTR but only every 3rd day or so, and otherwise I just kept reading to him.

 

:hurray::hurray: That is wonderful! And I enjoyed reading your whole post, after reading about some struggles you have gone through in recent years.

[PeterPan]

Ditto what Corraleno said on quirky and add that in our house quirky means game over, progress stops, if you don't work with it. And yes, I think it's just basically a polite way of putting differences that could be labeled bad or good that we want to put forth in a nice way. It gives us a chance to talk about our kids in a positive way in a world where everything gets clinical and negative. That's why I use the term, because I DON'T think my dd is defective, just because she's different, and I don't think the differences in how we do things are negative just because they might flow from particular "problems". So I use quirky to spin it more positively.

 

Yllek-The question you posed is a theoretical one, and the answer is practical: you'll know when you get there. It's just like the therapy you've done now: you have a goal or skill you're working on that plays out in a task. As they do the task you see how they respond. Is it a character issues or that something is too hard? Or maybe it truly needs to be modified because they're not ready? The same things you've learned to this point will carry you as you move forward. The principles still apply. And I think your mother gut will tell you when they need more stretching. You'll just know. Sometimes you'll think you know and be incorrect. That happens. But in general, you'll just know.

 

Really, kids are surprising. I've enjoyed my dd stretch recently to use her new skills and abilities. It's a marvelous process to watch them grow.

[8filltheheart]

I was just going through mail and came across ds's Imagine magazine.

 

Imagine is a magazine written to gifted middle and high school students about exploring and creating unique educational/research/project experiences. It is interesting and inspiring reading (though sometimes daunting as well. :001_smile:) These kids take the onus upon themselves to dream and achieve amazing things.

 

Just thought I would share in case others aren't aware of it. http://cty.jhu.edu/imagine/