Tough love and consequences... wwyd?

[BMW]

I try not to ask too many times per year...

 

This morning my 13yob kept swatting 11yob with his shirt (like towel snapping) when they were getting ready for school. I was in the kitchen and didn't hear anything at this time. 11yob gets tired of it, and hits 13yob. I hear, "Quit it! I'm tired of you hitting me!" and go to check it out. I find 13yob has pinned down 11yob to a wooden kitchen chair - one hand is holding down one arm and his other hand is around 11yob's neck, pushing down... a choke hold for sure. I pull them apart and tell 13yob to get his backpack, socks and shoes and get out of the house. I make sure he has socks and shoes and walk him to the door and say, "You may not treat anyone this way. Good bye. I will see you after school." 13yob goes out the door and I lock it behind him.

 

13yob decides to hide and wait until I leave with the boys to take them to school, then goes through the side gate (leaving it open and letting the dogs out!) and comes back inside to get his wallet. He then rushes to school and is 10 minutes late.

 

I am frustrated because part of his consequence was that he would have to leave right away and not get to have his wallet or anything. If you assault others, you don't get to say, "Just a minute, officer, I need to go get some snacks and some extra money."

 

So, I am thinking that this week and next (since it is already Wed.) he will have to get up earlier, get ready and leave and not get a ride to school.

 

From the outside, would you handle it differently?

 

I cannot tolerate violence. I cannot tolerate bullying.

[simka2]

WOW! No, I wouldn't handle the specific consequence differently. I would probly be adding to it though. Some sort of anger management study, and a report on the emotional consequences of being bullied.

 

I saw my twins in a similar pose day before yesterday, they are 9 which is a bit different. I sent them to their room to get ready for bed...it was 6pm. Dh came home and I had him deal with it, because I grew up as an only child and don't have a good "sibling fights" barometer.

[LibraryLover]

Is this new or ongoing behavior? What has worked in the past when he has hurt his brother? I wonder if there isn't some *stuff* (emotional, hormonal...does he have ADHD trendencies? Anxiety?) going on there that punishment might not fix. If your child is agreessive and pounding on his little brother, it's possile something is going on with this child that might need addressing. Some aggressive kids respond aggressively to harsh punishments. Rage is a difficult issue.

[mykdsmomy]

I am not an advocate of tough love but I honestly don't think what you're proposing is tough love at all :grouphug:

 

I think the consequence is appropriate however, do you know why ds13 is so aggressive towards ds11? I know most brothers wrestle, have some power struggles, etc....but it *sounds* like your ds13 has some anger issues? When things calm down a bit, maybe pull him aside (or go have some one on one time with him) and see if there's anything going on that is causing him to vent his anger (inappropriately).

 

Also, did he know he was not allowed back in to get his wallet or did he impulsively remember he needed his wallet and ran back in? (that can make a difference ...whether it was defiance or just an impulse).

 

Good luck!!! :grouphug:

[Pamela H in Texas]

Not sure I really can give an opinion to someone with so many boys!

 

Anyway, *I* would lean towards a few things:

 

1) house rule: If you are told "no," "stop," "quit" etc you MUST cease the behavior IMMEDIATELY (including when it is accompanied by the word please).

 

2) if you carry on with a brother, you are choosing to do that brother's chores for the next X days.

 

3) I would have them "blessing" one another a couple times each day. People who are looking for the opportunity to do something extra nice for one another are less likely to carry on inappropriately. (btw, my siblings and I did this as teens so though I generally think of it as something to do with young children, I do think it will be appropriate for older kids)

 

Then, the school is giving some sort of discipline for being late?

 

ETA: btw, when I had a similar situation in a classroom (middle school but the boys were both bigger than me), I separated the boys and "babysat" the one. So an option may be a big kid version of tomato staking.

 

One more idea: Possibly this boy needs more activity? It could be challenging before school, but something like P90 or a morning run or X pushups/situps/min of plank. These things would also address any sensory input needs.

Edited October 27, 2010 by 2J5M9K

[BMW]

13yob does have adhd. He knows that he is to keep his hands to himself, but sometimes he just cannot seem to follow that rule.

 

He was purposefully provoking the entire episode, from the reports of the other brothers.

 

I don't see it as him being "angry" at the younger brother because he was the one instigating the entire thing. I see it as him trying to power play the younger one... it was a demonstration of "I can push you down and hold you" "I can treat you this way".

 

13yob tends to "need" to act out to prove himself. He routinely tries to "one up" the others or boss them around because he is the oldest at home right now and thinks that's the way it should be. He is the least intelligent of the 4 younger boys, which I believe takes it's toll on his esteem.

 

But, that said, he knows the boundaries. He has shown me much more lately (as in the past 4 months) that he is capable of thinking and acting appropriately. So, I feel less tolerant.

 

Yes, he absolutely knew that he was to go straight to school. He knew that he was not allowed to come back inside. He must have hid on one side of the house until after we left. So, I feel like he got out of the consequence of having to leave without his wallet. (BTW, I had called the school and arranged for him to have a healthy lunch... now he has his wallet and will probably buy junk food)

 

I was honestly tempted to drive over to the school, call him out of class and have him hand over his wallet.

[simka2]

13yob does have adhd. He knows that he is to keep his hands to himself, but sometimes he just cannot seem to follow that rule.

 

He was purposefully provoking the entire episode, from the reports of the other brothers.

 

I don't see it as him being "angry" at the younger brother because he was the one instigating the entire thing. I see it as him trying to power play the younger one... it was a demonstration of "I can push you down and hold you" "I can treat you this way".

 

13yob tends to "need" to act out to prove himself. He routinely tries to "one up" the others or boss them around because he is the oldest at home right now and thinks that's the way it should be. He is the least intelligent of the 4 younger boys, which I believe takes it's toll on his esteem.

 

But, that said, he knows the boundaries. He has shown me much more lately (as in the past 4 months) that he is capable of thinking and acting appropriately. So, I feel less tolerant.

 

Yes, he absolutely knew that he was to go straight to school. He knew that he was not allowed to come back inside. He must have hid on one side of the house until after we left. So, I feel like he got out of the consequence of having to leave without his wallet. (BTW, I had called the school and arranged for him to have a healthy lunch... now he has his wallet and will probably buy junk food)

 

I was honestly tempted to drive over to the school, call him out of class and have him hand over his wallet.

 

I think this would be a good form of natural consequence :D Plus, chargeing him a few for gas money and your time!

[Joyofsixreboot]

I believe it would be my wallet for the next week and a half.

[Barry Goldwater]

He openly defied you, so I'm glad you are prepared to deliver a consequence...what I would do, I shouldn't say...but I'm sure you will determine an appropriate deterrent to future defiance...IMHO it should be extreme.

[Pamela H in Texas]

I do think going to get the wallet from him would have been logical. And it would have told him you were serious.

[Julie in CA]

The action you outlined would probably be what would happen here as a consequence for not going to school when told to do so.

 

As for the bullying, that would be the bigger issue here, and I'm afraid here's where we as a family stray from popular advice. Whenever one of the boys gets "big man syndrome", one of the older brothers, or in extreme cases, my dh, exerts some physical intimidation in order to discourage the bully from trying it again. While it's not popular nowadays, it did work for many generations before the current generations decided it was wrong. ;)

 

And to those who might be tempted to try to convince me that this course of action will teach my boys to be aggressive towards others, please don't try...I just don't believe it. There's a difference between physical abuse and the natural consequences of picking on others. Neither my dh, nor any of his six brothers, have become aggressive from being put in their place once in a while when they were young.

[Impish]

I do think going to get the wallet from him would have been logical. And it would have told him you were serious.

Yup. In a ratty bathrobe and slippers, preferably.

 

Honestly, I don't know what I'd do. That kind of blatant defiance would probably have me with my head btwn my knees and taking many deep breaths to ensure my head didn't explode. Defiance is one of those issues for me that can send me right over the edge, foaming at the mouth and doing a full body twitch.

 

Its something I'm working on. Acting, rather than *re*acting. Nothing like the sight of Mom's head spinning about on her neck to tell a kid they've hit a button, and encourage more of it, I've found.

 

I do, however, love the idea of him serving his brother. Since part of it seems to be vying for 'Top Dog' position, serving his brother would give him a dose of humility.

[Remudamom]

While it's not popular nowadays, it did work for many generations before the current generations decided it was wrong. ;)

 

And to those who might be tempted to try to convince me that this course of action will teach my boys to be aggressive towards others, please don't try...I just don't believe it. There's a difference between physical abuse and the natural consequences of picking on others. Neither my dh, nor any of his six brothers, have become aggressive from being put in their place once in a while when they were young.

 

:iagree::iagree::iagree:

[Barry Goldwater]

The action you outlined would probably be what would happen here as a consequence for not going to school when told to do so.

 

As for the bullying, that would be the bigger issue here, and I'm afraid here's where we as a family stray from popular advice. Whenever one of the boys gets "big man syndrome", one of the older brothers, or in extreme cases, my dh, exerts some physical intimidation in order to discourage the bully from trying it again. While it's not popular nowadays, it did work for many generations before the current generations decided it was wrong. ;)

 

And to those who might be tempted to try to convince me that this course of action will teach my boys to be aggressive towards others, please don't try...I just don't believe it. There's a difference between physical abuse and the natural consequences of picking on others. Neither my dh, nor any of his six brothers, have become aggressive from being put in their place once in a while when they were young.

 

:iagree:

 

This is the post of the week, in my book.

[BMW]

Julie, that's what my grandma says and I'd love to implement it, but am unable to do so... pm me if you would want to know why. And I agree with you. It just doesn't work here.

 

So as not to stir up trouble, I will refrain from commenting on that.

 

What I will say is that son did go to school, very slowly and was tardy. I believe he did try to go around the back yard and through the gate and let the dogs out, then left... He also had a hat that he had to have gotten his hands on "somehow". He wont admit to that, though.

 

So, for bullying and being inappropriately physically with his brother, he has lost video games for a week. (That is big for him because this is his LAST week to have xbox live, which he was excited about)

 

For not getting to school right away and being tardy, he is not allowed to walk home, visiting with friends. Instead he has to be picked up at the school with his younger brothers. (This is big because he loves that social time walking home after school)

 

Grandma pointed out to me today (actually mil) that these two boys are continually fighting and telling on each other. She says to not allow either boy to tell their side, but each time they fight, they are both in trouble. Period. And they each lie about it, too. She thinks that if they do not profit and they get in trouble every time, they will stop. Now I am thinking that when they start to fight, one goes to the bedroom while the other does a chore, then the other goes to the bedroom while the other does a chore. If the fighting crosses a line with me (like the choking), there will be a significant increase in consequences for that person.

[Julie in CA]

I didn't mean to imply that I thought you should do what we do. I'm fully cognizant of the fact that sometimes there are extenuating circumstances.

 

I was just answering the question you asked--"wwyd?"

 

Thought I'd add...I don't have any part in the bullying prevention method. It happens naturally via older brothers & dad. I didn't have to implement the method, it happens naturally and I just have done nothing to discourage it. ;)