Jean in Newcastle Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 We are secret Halloween abstainers. We don't make a big deal out of it. We don't care who celebrates it or does not celebrate it. If someone saves candy for the kids (and they often do) we thank them, the kids take it home, pick out what they like and we give away the rest. No big deal. Our current church has people who give the kids sugar at every holiday - candy canes or chocolate Santas at Christmas, candy hearts for Valentines day, candy at Halloween. As the teacher who always gets these sugar high kids during Jr. Church I don't really care for this tradition:willy_nilly: but have no trouble with this on moral grounds. It is easy for us to be gracious but not totally participate in what we don't want to participate in. Today my kids told me that the pastor's wife is planning on having the kids paint faces on pumpkins. And that she's going to have a special lesson on "The witch of Endor". I realize that she is a person in the Bible but honestly the pastor's wife is only teaching on her because of Halloween. Plus while my ds13 would be ok with the subject matter, I'm not so sure about dd8. All of a sudden I feel conflicted and honestly my kids feel conflicted too, which is why they brought it up to me. Now we are sort of forced to participate. Or at least that's how I feel. I've always avoided talking to other Christians about our convictions because of the reasons that always come up in Halloween threads on this board. I don't want to be seen as making any judgments against other Christians. But I may have to this time. I can't just quietly stay home that Sunday. I teach and have a responsibility to my students. And my dh is preaching that Sunday so we want to be there anyway for that reason. Dh is not pastor there so has no say in what goes on in the church. Sigh. Any advice on how to deal with this? I liked flying under the radar but I think this is going to force me to speak up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 I think the witch of Endor is a pretty strange lesson choice for kids/adolecents, regardless. Half of the adult Christians I have talked to about it don't even get what it's about. I don't necessarily connect painting pumpkins with Halloween, it's more of a general fall activity in my experience? Can you just keep your kids with you? As your helpers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted October 21, 2010 Author Share Posted October 21, 2010 I think the witch of Endor is a pretty strange lesson choice for kids/adolecents, regardless. Half of the adult Christians I have talked to about it don't even get what it's about. I don't necessarily connect painting pumpkins with Halloween, it's more of a general fall activity in my experience? Can you just keep your kids with you? As your helpers? She teaches during the kids Sunday school hour. I teach during Junior church. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mytwomonkeys Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 honestly, i'd just talk to her. i didn't feel like you were seeping with judgment in reading your thoughts, so i imagine in person you will come across even more gracious. no worries. just talk to her:grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 She teaches during the kids Sunday school hour. I teach during Junior church. Does Sunday school happen before church and Junior church during the church service? I'm not sure what your set-up is like. Could you skip Sunday school and just go to church? If you do approach her, I would approach it broadly. I'm sure you aren't the only family that does not do Halloween. Maybe you could persuade her into doing something with a more generic fall theme? Harvest? Something like that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuntieM Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 Does your dh, in his pastoral position, have the opportunity to express his concerns about this? Is he concerned about it? If your kids feel conflicted, it may be a good time to support them in standing for such convictions. In your shoes, and partly perhaps because I am also non-H-celebratory, I would probably hold them out of junior church. Is that concurrent with the time dh preaches? Perhaps no one would think twice if your kids attended to hear dad instead. Personally, I would question the teacher's reasons for teaching the WOE in jr church. Lots of good lessons there, but certainly nothing that would support a Christian's participation in H festivities. JMC(hristian)O. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted October 21, 2010 Author Share Posted October 21, 2010 Does Sunday school happen before church and Junior church during the church service? I'm not sure what your set-up is like. Could you skip Sunday school and just go to church? If you do approach her, I would approach it broadly. I'm sure you aren't the only family that does not do Halloween. Maybe you could persuade her into doing something with a more generic fall theme? Harvest? Something like that? Sunday school is first. Junior church is second during the worship service (when dh preaches). The pumpkins themselves aren't too much of an issue - though honestly I'd rather they get Bible teaching instead of an art lesson. But for one time that wouldn't be a big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted October 21, 2010 Author Share Posted October 21, 2010 Does your dh, in his pastoral position, have the opportunity to express his concerns about this? Is he concerned about it? If your kids feel conflicted, it may be a good time to support them in standing for such convictions. In your shoes, and partly perhaps because I am also non-H-celebratory, I would probably hold them out of junior church. Is that concurrent with the time dh preaches? Perhaps no one would think twice if your kids attended to hear dad instead. Personally, I would question the teacher's reasons for teaching the WOE in jr church. Lots of good lessons there, but certainly nothing that would support a Christian's participation in H festivities. JMC(hristian)O. Unfortunately it is not when dh teaches. I'll talk to dh about it tonight (he's out of town this week). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laurie4b Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 I would ask her how she's going to approach the lesson. Then make your decision based on that. It's a very serious lesson and if she's not going to approach it seriously, I wouldn't have my kids go. If she is going to approach it seriously, I"m not sure it would be appropriate for an 8 year old....but that's why you need to find out how she's going to approach it. To me, that's the issue: what is she going to do with the Scripture. It doesn't matter whether it's Halloween or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AuntieM Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 I would ask her how she's going to approach the lesson. Then make your decision based on that. It's a very serious lesson and if she's not going to approach it seriously, I wouldn't have my kids go. If she is going to approach it seriously, I"m not sure it would be appropriate for an 8 year old....but that's why you need to find out how she's going to approach it. To me, that's the issue: what is she going to do with the Scripture. It doesn't matter whether it's Halloween or not. An excellent summation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 I've never heard of such a thing! But, surely, if she is going to tackle this subject, she's going to talk about it from the point of view of the Bible...... isn't she????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mary in VA Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 I totally understand your family's position on Halloween. We did the same. We'd plan something together as a family on that day and be away from home. We didn't care that others celebrated it, but we preferred to avoid it. Now our dds are 20 and 16 so it's really not an issue anymore. I'd would want to know what she planned to teach about the "Witch of Endor" because it is not a story that has any positive examples for the kids in it. What is the bottom line "take away" she wants the kids to learn? Can you ask her that? It's odd that this question came up today because I just read the "Witch of Endor" account in my Bible study this morning. The study also looked at passages which dealt with God's view of those who consult with mediums. One of those passages was Leviticus 20:6, "I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people." Unless she plans on teaching God's view of the "Witch of Endor" I would want to avoid it. Tough issue, HTH, Mary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mrs Mungo Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 (edited) I've never heard of such a thing! But, surely, if she is going to tackle this subject, she's going to talk about it from the point of view of the Bible...... isn't she????? IME, there is a lot of confusion about what that story is saying. Was the witch surprised because Saul had lied about who he was? Or was the witch surprised that Samuel appeared because mediums are not real and this was a singular act of God? Does The Bible claim spirits are not real and mediums are charlatans? Does The Bible claim they *can be* real, but there are other very good reasons to stay away from that sort of thing? Is it really Samuel or is it a demon? Religion and scholars do not agree on these points. I'm not debating the point (and I don't think we should in this thread); I'm just pointing out that a debate exists. Edited October 21, 2010 by Mrs Mungo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted October 21, 2010 Author Share Posted October 21, 2010 A couple of you have asked about how she is going to tackle teaching the Witch of Endor. I know that she's been going through a series on Women in the Bible. Obviously in one sense, the Witch of Endor is a woman mentioned in the Bible though she's not on the same plane as Ruth or Esther. I know that she will read the Bible account. I don't worry that she will introduce non-Biblical information about her. It's (as some of you have said) more the idea that the lessons in this account are not ones I would normally address with middle and elementary school kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simka2 Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 Hmmmmm....I can't see her teaching this "unbiblically," so I think it would only reinforce your familiy's position to abstain from Halloween ;) I would seperate the pumpkin issue out from Halloween as well. Talk to your kids about non-halloweeny things they could paint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catalinakel Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 To be honest, I doubt I could have a conversation about this gal's choice of activities and lesson without offending her. Because to me it all just seems silly and a caving to the holiday. Which drives me crazy. So, if I were in your shoes, I would figure out a way for my kids to not be in the class on that day, and if she asks about it, let her know, gently and lovingly, how you feel. But otherwise don't bring it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris in VA Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 Well, personally I would keep my kids out of Sunday School this week, and I do a little Halloween. Believe it or not, I have history with something similar--The church we are currently in as clergy (hubby is clergy) is the same place dh did his seminary training over 20 years ago. At that time, the church youth had a service and a Haunted House (not a Hell House, but a real haunted house) as a fund raiser--the service was sort of tacked on in the beginning, and then they'd run the hh. During the service, the reading was on the Witch of Endor. I always found it weird and inappropriate--just taken out and read simply because it's Halloween, and there was no sermon, so no commentary. Sooo not what we do now. If your kids are feeling uncomfortable, then keep them out. Choose another time to talk with the pw. If she asks why your kids weren't there, stand up for what you believe in--it's good for your kids to see you have reasons for things. Be kind. Be gentle in spirit. But be honest. A simple, "At this point, we don't do Halloween at our house, so we chose not to participate in SS this year." If she wants to debate or says she was just doing scripture and doing Halloween, let it go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garga Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 As others have said, the story isn't easy to understand. Maybe she's trying to show the kids that while people are drawn to things like seances at Halloween, it's not something that Christians should be doing. Since the kids might have been exposed to "spooky" stuff (being that it's Halloween), she'll use this as a time to show the children that "spooky" stuff isn't anything new and that God's people have had to deal with it for thousands of years. There's nothing new under the sun--God isn't suddenly blindsided by people doing spooky "ghost" things. Perhaps she's using this time of the year to show the children how this was handled in the bible with the goal of coming to an understanding of how God views these sorts of things. Before getting too upset, I'd ask her what her lesson objective is. It might end up aligning with what you want to teach your kids (not to dabble in the dark side of Halloween, even in fun.) Once you know the objective, you can make a better decision. Simply say, "Witch of Endor, huh? That's a tough story. I'm really curious about what your lesson's about," with a nice curious smile. I'm trying to give her the benefit of the doubt, though I'm not sure she'll be able to pull it off. As others have said, there's a lot of speculation over what was going on in that story. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcconnellboys Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 Well, when you put it that way, I don't think it should even come up as a subject. I'd never even thought of all that. It certainly doesn't seem that it would be an appropriate theme for children to attempt discussing.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 Spill your coffee all over yourself, have to change, show up late... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parrothead Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 To be honest, I doubt I could have a conversation about this gal's choice of activities and lesson without offending her. Because to me it all just seems silly and a caving to the holiday. Which drives me crazy. So, if I were in your shoes, I would figure out a way for my kids to not be in the class on that day, and if she asks about it, let her know, gently and lovingly, how you feel. But otherwise don't bring it up. I agree. Find a way to keep the kids out of the class. If you are not comfortable with your 13-year old babysitting the 8-year old for an hour or two, hire a sitter or find someone to sub for you. Just fall back on personal reasons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted October 21, 2010 Author Share Posted October 21, 2010 Dh is going to talk to the pastor or the pastor's wife to find out what her intentions are with the lesson. Depending on how the conversation goes, we may just have our children up in the adult Sunday school with us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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