justamouse Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 Sine the beginning of September, I've been watching a dear friend's daughter who is going into K. She is my 4yos Biffle (best friends for life) I cannot even begin to tell you what a blank slate this kid is. She has no nursery rhymes, no stories, no books read, no songs known. Nothing. I guess what I'm saying is that until I started watching her, I was totally ignorant of the status quo out there. I've been homescooling for so long, my kids all know this stuff because it's a part of our family, you know? I can't even imagine being a Kindy 1st grade teacher and these kids all filing in, some knowing how to add (my daughter) and others not knowing what a # looks like and having to bring some up and hold some back to make everyone even. (:glare:) The sad part is that I don't do much when they are small apart from living a literature filled life, singing nursery rhymes, simple chores around the house that teach math. Nothing on purpose although at this point, my last kid being 4, I've had a lot of practice. So, be encouraged. Pat yourelf on the back, make yourself some tea/coffee/have a glass of wine. You deserve it. Ene when you're struggling, you're still giving more than most. OTOH, I am so greatly saddended for all of the kids who don't have these opportunities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean in Newcastle Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 I'm saddened too. So - are you doing a lot of nursery rhymes, songs, stories, and books? What a great opportunity for your dd to share those with her friend! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heatherwith4 Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 It is so sad. I'd say a lot of parents just don't spend time talking or reading to their dc at all, for various reasons. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OH_Homeschooler Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 I wouldn't go so far as to say this is the status quo, this is one child. You never know what is going on at home or if the kid has some kind of developmental delay. It is not a good idea to draw a general inference based on your observation of just one child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mejane Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 Some people are truly of the mind that school should teach their kids everything. Imo, it's nothing more than lazy parenting. Sorry, I understand she's your friend, but... :glare: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Danestress Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 Many of us received a rich heritage of Mother Goose and fairy tales, songs and poems as young children - all learned from our mothers (grandmothers, aunts, fathers, uncles) before or in addition to school. Why aren't kids learning that now? You don't have to home school to teach your children nursery rhymes. I wonder if mothers are just distracted now by electronics and such and don't really see these things as having a deep value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SweetMissMagnolia Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 oh yeah.....had my little one doing kindergarten things at about 3-4.....it is sad how some families just don't seem to take an interest in their children's learning or who don't MAKE the time to teach their kids even the simplicities that little ones need..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 (edited) When my nephews visit they always beg me to tell them 'ghost stories.' They listen intently while I recount Hansel and Gretal, The Pied Piper, Rumplestiltskin, &tc. For them, it's all new (ages 9 and 7). My youngest nephew (3) will be more familiar with fairy tales at his brothers' ages, but only because Nini (me) reads them to him now. Older ds was also woefully ignorant of all that until we started hsing. It just never occurred to me to read those stories to him. They seem so generally known that I guess I forgot that someone told those stories to everyone and THAT is why they're generally known. Also, I did not educate ds before he started school. Dd had a difficult time starting out, because she was too far ahead of her classmates. Blast me all you want, I see the stupidity of it NOW, but then it made perfect sense. I thought I was doing a service for my children by keeping them ignorant. Of course, up until ds was in 2nd grade I did not consider hsing an option. Edited September 28, 2010 by lionfamily1999 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheres Toto Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 I hate to say this but any kid who watches television, at least the pbskids type television, is going to be familiar with most nursery rhymes, fairy tales, common kids songs, counting, letters/abc's, etc. So, I'm really surprised that there's any kid out there unfamilar with this stuff - no parental reading or singing and no kids television? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rivka Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 Many of us received a rich heritage of Mother Goose and fairy tales, songs and poems as young children - all learned from our mothers (grandmothers, aunts, fathers, uncles) before or in addition to school. Why aren't kids learning that now? You don't have to home school to teach your children nursery rhymes. I wonder if mothers are just distracted now by electronics and such and don't really see these things as having a deep value. There have always been kids who didn't get those things at home, and there are plenty of kids who *are* getting them at home today. I'd hesitate to draw big generational comparisons based on an anecdote about one child. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 I hate to say this but any kid who watches television, at least the pbskids type television, is going to be familiar with most nursery rhymes, fairy tales, common kids songs, counting, letters/abc's, etc. So, I'm really surprised that there's any kid out there unfamilar with this stuff - no parental reading or singing and no kids television? They teach them the same way that Disney teaches them. IOW, it's a version of it, but far enough from the original that the original is lost. My older dcs grew up watching those shows and they learned their colors, numbers, alphabet, &tc. They did not, though, learn the fairy tales or rhymes, or any song that was not on a Wigglesesque album. On those shows they're just fun little segments. It's not like a moment of time actually dedicated to looking at the story. It's bright funny characters zooming and zipping and sort of acting out an old story, but the story is lost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheres Toto Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 (edited) They teach them the same way that Disney teaches them. IOW, it's a version of it, but far enough from the original that the original is lost. My older dcs grew up watching those shows and they learned their colors, numbers, alphabet, &tc. They did not, though, learn the fairy tales or rhymes, or any song that was not on a Wigglesesque album. On those shows they're just fun little segments. It's not like a moment of time actually dedicated to looking at the story. It's bright funny characters zooming and zipping and sort of acting out an old story, but the story is lost. I'm thinking more of things like Reading Rainbow and Between the Lions that actually read the story from a book. Nursery rhymes are being done complete from any I've seen (at least, the same version as in What Your Kindergartener/Preschooler Needs to Know and the versions I am familiar with). I know Disney :tongue_smilie: and SuperWhy type shows are not sticking to the original stories. Although, some of the Hans Christian Anderson/Brothers Grimm are pretty intense and might need some judicious editing if you have a sensitive preschooler. I can't stand the Disney version of most things. I have a book of fairy tales that is a little less gruesome than some of the originals, that I like for my kids. Edited September 28, 2010 by dottieanna29 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OH_Homeschooler Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 I don't get it, what is the problem? Is it that kids "today" just aren't learning what used to be considered the most essential nursery rhymes? Is it the assumption that only homeschooling mothers care enough about their kids to sing to them and read to them before they even enter school? (Not true...again this whole thread was started based on the observations of one child). Is it that even the kids who do know some songs and stories could have only possibly learned them by watching what some people consider trashy television (of course, this complaint only applies to the kids who know these things but go to PS, never applies to homeschooled kids)? Threads like this just bug me, it seems like yet another battle in the mommy wars and it's just based on one child (the child of someone the OP considers a friend. Personally, I like to give my friends the benefit of the doubt). It is just not true that only homeschoolers care enough about their kids' education to nurture a love of learning before school age. Even homeschooling parents have trouble nurturing that in their kids sometimes, and not just before school age. Look around these message boards, it's everywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted September 28, 2010 Author Share Posted September 28, 2010 I wouldn't go so far as to say this is the status quo, this is one child. You never know what is going on at home or if the kid has some kind of developmental delay. It is not a good idea to draw a general inference based on your observation of just one child. They're good friends-have been since we went to HS, I know the kids pretty well. Just this year we moved to a bustling town and I get to talk to parents and kids all over-and I'm seeing a distinct lack of this--legacy of literature? I dunno. I can see why the Core series was put out-I used to think it was superfluous but now I see the need. Realizing this made me start asking and it's so sad that the parents just don't seem to care, either. Many of us received a rich heritage of Mother Goose and fairy tales, songs and poems as young children - all learned from our mothers (grandmothers, aunts, fathers, uncles) before or in addition to school. Why aren't kids learning that now? You don't have to home school to teach your children nursery rhymes. I wonder if mothers are just distracted now by electronics and such and don't really see these things as having a deep value. Exactly-I was taught all this waaay before I was in school. And I know what the problem is with the family-both parents work and when they're not working they're at sports events shuttling one kid here and another there and then it's a sandwich for dinner and bed to start all over again the next day. Reading is just not their priority and, you know, perhaps to someone looking in they see our house as having a high priority on it, but to me, watching my kids read all day (and going in to turn off the secret light at 12 pm) is the norm. Maybe she never knew the tales and songs and in turn never taught them. There's a saying that the smallest degree off on the ship means not getting to your destination-it's seems so small in the beginning-just reading a book to your kids, being engaged (there's that word again), it's such small increments over the years, but the fruitfulness of those small acts is an abundance that can't be measured. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted September 28, 2010 Author Share Posted September 28, 2010 I don't get it, what is the problem? Is it that kids "today" just aren't learning what used to be considered the most essential nursery rhymes? Is it the assumption that only homeschooling mothers care enough about their kids to sing to them and read to them before they even enter school? (Not true...again this whole thread was started based on the observations of one child). Is it that even the kids who do know some songs and stories could have only possibly learned them by watching what some people consider trashy television (of course, this complaint only applies to the kids who know these things but go to PS, never applies to homeschooled kids)? Threads like this just bug me, it seems like yet another battle in the mommy wars and it's just based on one child (the child of someone the OP considers a friend. Personally, I like to give my friends the benefit of the doubt). It is just not true that only homeschoolers care enough about their kids' education to nurture a love of learning before school age. Even homeschooling parents have trouble nurturing that in their kids sometimes, and not just before school age. Look around these message boards, it's everywhere. It's not just nursery rhymes- and the essential ones. Now I know why ALL of her kids have reading problems-I've had to tutor them along with the school- I had to take her oldest and go back to basics because she had zilch reading comprehension-now I know why-because the foundation isn't there. This isn't about Mommy wars unless you feel judged, it's about giving our kids a base in the most essential tool of learning-being able to pick up a book and read it, learn from it and gather the information you need to move forward. Over the years I've firmly come to believe that loving literature and reading well comes from hearing stories when you were a kid-saying those silly rhymes, and singing those songs. Then you move on, but it all starts small. Charlotte Mason calls it laying down the tracks-she's right, she's so right. You can't depend on the schools to do it because so far they're an epic fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OH_Homeschooler Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 No, I do not feel judged (why would I?), but I feel like broad statements like this based on one child (or even one family) are detrimental to our relationships with all kinds of mothers who are, deep down, facing all the same struggles despite making different parenting choices. And I still need more evidence than the fact that more than one kid in this family has had reading difficulties. Perhaps there is a genetic basis for reading problems. Have you asked all these children what kinds of books their mother reads to them? Have you (nicely) asked their mother what books she loves to read to her kids, songs she likes to sing to them? Maybe you did, but you have not shared that information with us so this all seems to me like you're making assumptions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annlaura Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 I hate to say this but any kid who watches television, at least the pbskids type television, is going to be familiar with most nursery rhymes, fairy tales, common kids songs, counting, letters/abc's, etc. So, I'm really surprised that there's any kid out there unfamilar with this stuff - no parental reading or singing and no kids television? DS3.75 had a funny observation today watching the Max & Ruby version of a few fairy tales - "Ruby doesn't know that story is Jack and the Beanstalk, Mom!" Anyway, I too have been reading nursery rhymes and fairy tales to my boys since birth, and was surprised at first to discover that these are the basis of Sonlight, etc. But I'm glad they are, especially for any parent/teacher who didn't grow up with them themselves. I'm glad too that she gets this time with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justamouse Posted September 28, 2010 Author Share Posted September 28, 2010 (edited) No, I do not feel judged (why would I?), but I feel like broad statements like this based on one child (or even one family) are detrimental to our relationships with all kinds of mothers who are, deep down, facing all the same struggles despite making different parenting choices. And I still need more evidence than the fact that more than one kid in this family has had reading difficulties. Perhaps there is a genetic basis for reading problems. Have you asked all these children what kinds of books their mother reads to them? Have you (nicely) asked their mother what books she loves to read to her kids, songs she likes to sing to them? Maybe you did, but you have not shared that information with us so this all seems to me like you're making assumptions. Again, I said that she and I have been dear friends since high school. Meaning, I would go to her house in my PJs, flop on her couch, drink coffee and cut coupons with her. She just raised her kids differently. She did make different choices and now that I see the difference, I'm glad I made the ones I did. The consequence of those different choices though, is that the school has a harder time teaching everyone. Edited September 28, 2010 by justamouse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 I'm thinking more of things like Reading Rainbow and Between the Lions that actually read the story from a book. Nursery rhymes are being done complete from any I've seen (at least, the same version as in What Your Kindergartener/Preschooler Needs to Know and the versions I am familiar with). I know Disney :tongue_smilie: and SuperWhy type shows are not sticking to the original stories. Although, some of the Hans Christian Anderson/Brothers Grimm are pretty intense and might need some judicious editing if you have a sensitive preschooler. I can't stand the Disney version of most things. I have a book of fairy tales that is a little less gruesome than some of the originals, that I like for my kids. I know there are better shows that do better jobs, but I just don't think it's the same as having the story read or told to you during a moment of quiet. My youngest ds found some of the most basic children's stories new and amusing, even though he had 'seen' them on RBtL (we never were big watchers of Reading Rainbow). I just don't believe it leaves as big an imprint when you watch someone on television as when you actually get to listen to a human, iykwIm. Threads like this just bug me, it seems like yet another battle in the mommy wars and it's just based on one child (the child of someone the OP considers a friend. Personally, I like to give my friends the benefit of the doubt). It is just not true that only homeschoolers care enough about their kids' education to nurture a love of learning before school age. Even homeschooling parents have trouble nurturing that in their kids sometimes, and not just before school age. Look around these message boards, it's everywhere. Yes, but it is nice to know that any parent putting in the hands-on time needed to impart those bits of wisdom is doing more than the least little bit. It's like finding out that some people only use paper plates. Well, I'm not the greenest person in the world, but at least I'm not creating that much garbage. I'm not the greatest mother on earth, but at least I know I'm doing that much. DS3.75 had a funny observation today watching the Max & Ruby version of a few fairy tales - "Ruby doesn't know that story is Jack and the Beanstalk, Mom!" Anyway, I too have been reading nursery rhymes and fairy tales to my boys since birth, and was surprised at first to discover that these are the basis of Sonlight, etc. But I'm glad they are, especially for any parent/teacher who didn't grow up with them themselves. I'm glad too that she gets this time with you. That's what I meant earlier about shows not really teaching these things... Fairy tales and nursery rhymes are just not some of those things that all busy adults have on the forefront of their mind. My sister's sons were all read to and they all could count and knew the basics when they started school. She takes their education VERY seriously and works with the older two every night to make sure they're on top of everything. She didn't even think to read them fairy tales or nursery rhymes :shrug: it happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joannqn Posted September 28, 2010 Share Posted September 28, 2010 I have to admit that we kind of missed many of those fairy tales. Ooops! But we read lots of other things. I don't think we've ever read Hansel and Gretel but we have read The Hobbit together. I'm figuring out that I'm a poor judge of grade level. I always recommend things that are several years too advanced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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