S/O State/Gov't Regulation Thread

[Sahamamama]

I've been thinking about the many and varied responses to my original post on this thread:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210340&page=8

 

Thank you to ALL who responded. I love this forum!

 

What's interesting to me is that in reading this thread, I have actually changed my viewpoint on accountability. Now, I do believe it is a good thing to have to report to someone/something outside ourselves. Now, I do believe that we and our children can benefit when we submit ourselves, our plans, and our home schools to some form of "outside" assessment.

 

I never thought I would say that in a million years. :001_huh:

 

But what I'm also thinking, even more strongly than before, is that the government/state school system should NOT be the overseer. Ester Maria's excellent responses clinched it for me: She was advocating that EXPERTISE should be the judge of my child's grasp of a subject. If I, personally, possess that expertise, then I am qualified to judge the child's mastery. If I, personally, do NOT possess that expertise, then I need to seek out someone who DOES possess it.

 

Somehow, through Ester Maria's remarkable power of persuasion I suppose, ;) I have come to agree with that position:

 

 

The teacher's expertise measures the student's mastery.

 

 

 

It only makes sense that the one holding the "measuring stick" is best qualified to measure. Perhaps we've thought for so long in the homeschool community that love of our children is enough to make good things happen... but that's another thread, probably. :D

 

OTOH, I'm not sure where we would draw the line on what LEVEL of expertise is truly needed for each level of learning -- for example, does my (supposedly) above-average education and lifelong self-study qualify me to teach and evaluate my Kindergartner? My first grader? My second grader? My ninth grader? At what Level of Learning does my Level of Expertise "expire" or fade out?

 

And herein lies the truth -- All my experience with the state education system, with Teacher's Colleges, with my friends who are public school teachers, and so on, leaves me with the deeply held conviction that THEREIN is no EXPERTISE. I don't mean any disrespect to individuals who labor in that system -- but the system AS A WHOLE seems devoid of any mastery... of anything, really... except bureaucratic chaos.

 

Ester Maria, I'm not sure you understand the FEAR that many US home educators seem to have regarding the public education system -- we feel like it's a sinking ship (the Titanic), and we fear being forced to board it with our children.

 

The system of testing, interviewing, and assessing that your children experience in Italy is a completely different process than what "testing" often means in the US. For one thing, your daughter's tests are REAL. ;)

 

What I've come away with from this fruitful discussion is that there ARE true benefits from being held accountable AND that there are serious concerns about being accountable to the DOE, at least in most cases.

 

But this has me thinking about other possibilities. What do you think about homeschoolers forming a way to become accountable to other homeschoolers? Does this already exist, and if so, how can I find it?

 

I would be thrilled if, as my children grow beyond my level of expertise, bona fide experts would be available to assess them. How to set this up is the question? I vote that Ester Maria tests my children in Latin. :D

[Sahamamama]

:lurk5:

[Guest Dulcimeramy]

I've been thinking about the many and varied responses to my original post on this thread:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210340&page=8

 

Thank you to ALL who responded. I love this forum!

 

What's interesting to me is that in reading this thread, I have actually changed my viewpoint on accountability. Now, I do believe it is a good thing to have to report to someone/something outside ourselves. Now, I do believe that we and our children can benefit when we submit ourselves, our plans, and our home schools to some form of "outside" assessment.

 

I never thought I would say that in a million years. :001_huh:

 

But what I'm also thinking, even more strongly than before, is that the government/state school system should NOT be the overseer. Ester Maria's excellent responses clinched it for me: She was advocating that EXPERTISE should be the judge of my child's grasp of a subject. If I, personally, possess that expertise, then I am qualified to judge the child's mastery. If I, personally, do NOT possess that expertise, then I need to seek out someone who DOES possess it.

 

Somehow, through Ester Maria's remarkable power of persuasion I suppose, ;) I have come to agree with that position:

 

 

The teacher's expertise measures the student's mastery.

 

 

 

It only makes sense that the one holding the "measuring stick" is best qualified to measure. Perhaps we've thought for so long in the homeschool community that love of our children is enough to make good things happen... but that's another thread, probably. :D

 

OTOH, I'm not sure where we would draw the line on what LEVEL of expertise is truly needed for each level of learning -- for example, does my (supposedly) above-average education and lifelong self-study qualify me to teach and evaluate my Kindergartner? My first grader? My second grader? My ninth grader? At what Level of Learning does my Level of Expertise "expire" or fade out?

I've been thinking on this, too. It is a new and fascinating line of thought. As a side note, I am sooo glad Ester Maria is on this board! We put her through the wringer on a regular basis, and I wish we wouldn't because she is a unique and important (and increasingly treasured) voice here.

 

And herein lies the truth -- All my experience with the state education system, with Teacher's Colleges, with my friends who are public school teachers, and so on, leaves me with the deeply held conviction that THEREIN is no EXPERTISE. I don't mean any disrespect to individuals who labor in that system -- but the system AS A WHOLE seems devoid of any mastery... of anything, really... except bureaucratic chaos.

 

Ester Maria, I'm not sure you understand the FEAR that many US home educators seem to have regarding the public education system -- we feel like it's a sinking ship (the Titanic), and we fear being forced to board it with our children.

 

This is very well said. That analogy is perfect.

 

The system of testing, interviewing, and assessing that your children experience in Italy is a completely different process than what "testing" often means in the US. For one thing, your daughter's tests are REAL. ;)

 

What I've come away with from this fruitful discussion is that there ARE true benefits from being held accountable AND that there are serious concerns about being accountable to the DOE, at least in most cases.

 

But this has me thinking about other possibilities. What do you think about homeschoolers forming a way to become accountable to other homeschoolers? Does this already exist, and if so, how can I find it?

 

I would be thrilled if, as my children grow beyond my level of expertise, bona fide experts would be available to assess them. How to set this up is the question? I vote that Ester Maria tests my children in Latin. :D

I'm interested in your idea. As my children get older, I find myself seeking out authoritative materials for them. Science texts written by actual scientists, for example. LOL I am quite aware that I don't know.

 

Some days it is enough to beat the school by a mile and a half. Other days I wonder if my children will really be prepared to be competitive globally. I don't even know how to find out.

 

Some "expert networking" would be helpful for those of us homeschooling through high school.

[Nestof3]

I am sure that for the people who feel outside assessment is necessary, there will be people to judge that for them. I am still perfectly at peace judging the academic success of my children. I find outside assessment is necessary for those who don't have the drive or commitment to do it themselves or care enough to seek it out from others when outsourcing is necessary.

 

I wanted to add that I don't appreciate the homeschooling families who don't even attempt to teach their children how to read (even when they are eleven years old) because they cannot find the time. They haven't figured out how to get beyond just caring for the basic needs of their large family. This is not a general statement toward large families, but it is a trend I have personally seen with large families. I like to just think, "Well, it's their family -- they should do what they see fit." But, in the end, it will probably just result in stricter regulation for homeschoolers like me.

 

I would actually love to be "audited" by the city, but I do NOT want to have to waste any time on paperwork, lesson plans, proving I am following the SOLs, etc. I thrive on the freedom I have. I homeschool well, and I get great results.

Edited September 10, 2010 by nestof3

[Ellie]

I would be thrilled if, as my children grow beyond my level of expertise, bona fide experts would be available to assess them. How to set this up is the question? I vote that Ester Maria tests my children in Latin. :D

You say that now. :D Just wait until someone with more experience than you tries to advise you and you pay no attention whatsoever.:D

[Rosie_0801]

I am sure that for the people who feel outside assessment is necessary, there will be people to judge that for them. I am still perfectly at peace judging the academic success of my children. I find outside assessment is necessary for those who don't have the drive or commitment to do it themselves or care enough to seek it out from others when outsourcing is necessary.

 

But it would still be cool to have access to those sorts of people who are able to say "Oh, you enjoy X? Here let me write down the title and author of this, you'll love that too." My aunt has no interest in homeschooling, only afterschooling and refuses to even call it that :p but she's happy to hear about resources that I'm aware of because she would never find them herself, probably even if she looked, because she doesn't know they there to be looked for.

 

Rosie

Edited September 10, 2010 by Rosie_0801

[Tabrett]

The only way I could see true accountability is for homeschoolers to provide a portfolio that shows yearly learning and improvement/progress from the beginning of the year to the end. Because there are no national standards and state standards are subjective and we have the freedom to choose what we teach our children, the portfolio would only be to demonstrate that we did indeed do school that year and not just sit around eating pork rinds and watch tv. I would not have a problem submitting a portfolio because I keep my dc's work. I think the point would be to make sure the hs'ers are actually homschooling and not using homeschooling as an excuse for truancy. However that being said, I do not want what has to be taught dictated to me by the state or federal government. Accountability is fine, dictatorship is not!

[TravelingChris]

Well I would have a problem with a portfolio in many subjects because we don't do written work in all subjects. So math would have problems someone could see but literature might have hardly anything since we read and discuss.

[Nestof3]

I thought that's what we were getting on this forum. ;)

 

You know, the librarians are supposed to do this, but I have never had any success with our librarians being able to do more than search on the computer to recommend something.

 

Just the other day, a man came in asking for DVDs on Michelangelo. The librarian pulled up the computer, read off what was there, and sounded less familiar about what they had on him than I would have been. She even mentioned a Teaching Company DVD that dealt with multiple artists, but she had no idea that these were even lectures. I wanted to tell the guy what The Teaching Company was so that he would better understand. I also wanted to let him know how much I enjoy them.

 

I have a friend who teaches advanced mathematics, and I am always recommending elementary math resources for his daughter. He is obviously gifted in math (he's quite brilliant), but he always appreciates my take on the younger audience. We have spent hours discussing education and resources. When my son was taking Alg II/Trig, I called him because I had a question about completing the square. There was one step I wasn't understanding. He made it so clear to me. He also said, "Wow -- you wouldn't believe how many community college students I see who don't even know how to SQUARE a number!" He now teaches advanced calculus at a private boys' school in CA, but at the time, he was teaching at a community college. I know that in him, I will always have a private math tutor!

 

One of my husband's customers taught Latin for 41 years. We have emailed recently. She found out I homeschool and asked me about it. I told her we hadn't started Latin, but that I would most likely outsource it if we did. I still want to pursue Koine Greek one day with them, though. I told her about our Latin/Greek root study. She kindly recommended two resources, and I couldn't believe that I already have them. We laughed about it. She said she enjoyed my blog and that it made her want to start teaching again.

 

I am still friends with my college English professor (I focused on Renaissance literature, and she taught most of my classes.) I know that I could go to her for literary help.

 

I just spoke to my sister-in-law who paints very well. She loves art and has taken many classes. I was telling her about our art studies. Then I mentioned our upcoming study of Caravaggio. She lit up. She asked if we had discussed foreshortening. I told her I hadn't heard of that word. She explained it to me, and the next day, I was reading about Baroque art to the boys, and there was the concept.

 

I feel like the information and support are there for those of us who really want it.

 

But it would still be cool to have access to those sorts of people who are able to say "Oh, you enjoy X? Here let me write down the title and author of this, you'll love that too." My aunt has no interest in homeschooling, only afterschooling and refuses to even call it that :p but she's happy to hear about resources that I'm aware of because she would never find them herself, probably even if she looked, because she doesn't know it's there to be looked for.

 

Rosie

[Sahamamama]

I wonder if my children will really be prepared to be competitive globally. I don't even know how to find out.

 

http://www.2mminutes.com/about.asp

 

This was eye-opening for me, comparing the motivation, determination, drive and academic-mindedness of students from around the globe.

 

This quest for experts -- when we have come to the end of our own expertise -- reminds me of another thread (can't find it at the moment) that came up a few months back. It was along the lines of Homeschool Conferences being mostly "rah rah" meetings and lacking in TEACHING the teachers. There was an outcry on the boards for Teaching Conferences -- real "meat and potatoes" types of seminars/webinars in which a particular subject would be grappled with by an expert in the field. It was hoped that in this way, a homeschool teacher might ADD to his/her expertise.

 

After all, we could learn Algebra, right? :D

 

As far as I know, though, nothing came of it. Just wondering if there is still any spark left in that fire? :confused:

[Sahamamama]

You say that now. :D Just wait until someone with more experience than you tries to advise you and you pay no attention whatsoever.:D

 

:lol::lol::lol: You know me, don't you?

[Sahamamama]

You know, the librarians are supposed to do this, but I have never had any success with our librarians being able to do more than search on the computer to recommend something.

 

:iagree:This happens all the time. I'll ask for a recommendation, and they bury their noses in the computer screen. I think, Do you read?

[Sahamamama]

Okay, this is weird. I'm having a conversation with myself. So lonely. :leaving:

[Rosie_0801]

I thought that's what we were getting on this forum. ;)

 

Ha, yeah :) Where do you think I learn the stuff I pass onto my aunt :D

I hope our resident physics experts are still lurking here when I need them ;)

 

You know, the librarians are supposed to do this, but I have never had any success with our librarians being able to do more than search on the computer to recommend something.

 

You need to go to a university library for that, I think.

 

Just the other day, a man came in asking for DVDs o

n Michelangelo. The librarian pulled up the computer, read off what was there, and sounded less familiar about what they had on him than I would have been. She even mentioned a Teaching Company DVD that dealt with multiple artists, but she had no idea that these were even lectures. I wanted to tell the guy what The Teaching Company was so that he would better understand. I also wanted to let him know how much I enjoy them.

 

I do that. :D Heck, I've even sold a handful of books while out shopping myself and I've never even worked in a book shop!

 

It's nice you have such useful friends. My friends know weird stuff like how to pronounce Old Norse, fungi reproduction, how to make a farthingale and the best place to order silver thread. Hehe.

 

I feel like the information and support are there for those of us who really want it.

 

I don't know if that is true, but I do think people feel too socially uncomfortable to email an expert and ask for advice.

 

When I was at uni, the lecturers (apart from the inevitable few jerks that pop up anywhere) were desperate to teach. Those that weren't were depressed that there wasn't anyone worth teaching, and lit up immediately when they found someone who wanted to learn from them. I had one crusty old chap allow my brother to sit in his lecture when he knew he wasn't paying any fees because he was actually enrolled elsewhere, and he did a whole lot of paperwork to be able to run a class he hadn't run for donkey's years because I asked him to. Another lecturer sent me some left over class notes for free after I finished my degree because I emailed asking to buy them since I regretted not being able to take that other class of hers. I've had an SCA person send me an inch thick slab of papers via international post, because I showed interest. I don't have any suitable skills to repay the favour, and he said that didn't matter, and my only obligation was to pass the info on to any other interested person who came my way. Some random lady I had never met before and I were chatting over her groceries about local history one day and came back the week after to give me an out of print local history book, then I never saw her again. I emailed a chap in Poland about a project I was researching, and he got his colleague to translate it so he could answer, and I emailed him about three times.

 

Enthusiasts really are willing to share with people who show interest, we just have to be willing to show it and brave enough to ask. If we email a lecturer at a university, the worst they are going to do is ignore it. Most likely, though, the minimum they'll provide (because they are busy people and have students they are responsible for) is a few recommended readings. And even those have bibliographies to follow for more.

 

:)

Rosie

[Nestof3]

You reminded me. When I was researching chemistry for our eldest, I joined a chemistry forum. I ended up in several email conversations with a chemist who had amazing information. He was just so helpful in recommending texts, where to buy chemicals, etc. He said he was available to answer any questions I had. I was so thrilled with meeting him.

 

I highly recommend being bold. :D

 

I don't know if that is true, but I do think people feel too socially uncomfortable to email an expert and ask for advice.

 

:)

Rosie

[Jean in Newcastle]

 

Enthusiasts really are willing to share with people who show interest, we just have to be willing to show it and brave enough to ask. If we email a lecturer at a university, the worst they are going to do is ignore it. Most likely, though, the minimum they'll provide (because they are busy people and have students they are responsible for) is a few recommended readings. And even those have bibliographies to follow for more.

 

 

 

That is so true. We do have good librarians though who are also enthusiasts. They are so excited to work with ds13 who has read all the "normal" recommendations. We often enter the library to have a librarian call out "there he is! I wrote down some new recommendations for you that I just came across!" And he's even had one e-mail him with a new book that had come out.

 

We were at a party last weekend and met a retired physics teacher. He had a rip-roaring good time talking science with ds. He gave him his e-mail address and that of a nuclear physicist friend of his so that they could continue their conversation.

 

I will often call up a specialty store or business and will ask for help. I've had scientists invite me to come and bring my microscope in for a tune-up, I've had master gardeners ask me to come by and look at their gardens. . . The trick is to be brazen! The worst that can happen is for there to be complete silence. . . while they figure out how to get rid of you!

[elegantlion]

I just finished the book Critical Lessons. It addresses some of what the author believes should be taught in schools, mostly addressing public. The last chapter talks about some of those experts we're looking for to provide our educational standards.

 

I do think it's important that we understand our strengths and weaknesses in educating our children. Budget and your circle of friends can play into those opportunities. Even if we don't have the friends whom we consider experts, can we find and outsource those mentorship opportunities? I'm thinking about this more as ds develops interests outside my scope of comfort.

 

However, I still want to be the final word. It's a huge responsibility that I don't take lightly. We stepped outside the scope of the bureaucratic system for a reason. We're trying to buy a house (not our first) and the process has gotten so complicated that it's insane. There's so much red tape involved, lines of communication, protocol. The bottom line there is about two pages of the offer agreement that matter, the ones with the dollar amount on it, everything else is a song and dance. Education has reached that point. Too much red tape when the only thing that matters is if my child is educated to his fullest potential. I don't want/need more government interference to tell me if I've done my job. I chose to step outside the system.

 

What about those that aren't educating their children? The ones that are playing the system? I feel for those kids, I truly do, but I don't want to have added accountability because of their lack of responsibility.

 

I live in a state where public education is not the greatest. Lack of quality education has affected many areas of these peoples' lives as adults. I see the lack of critical thinking skills, long term thinking, general knowledge, lack of how to process information, and frankly a lot of ignorance and intolerance. I guess I'll be more than happy to have some regulation once the public schools start getting better grades themselves.

 

ETA: I guess for our "experts" I'm looking at where those experts lie in my curriculum choices. Science books written by experts in their fields, history books written by historians, math books by mathematicians... you get the picture.

Edited September 10, 2010 by elegantlion

[Barry Goldwater]

Okay, this is weird. I'm having a conversation with myself. So lonely. :leaving:

 

that's funny!

 

Sahamamama, regarding your s/o OP, you have an amazing knack for cutting through the smoke and finding the fire! The other thread was a fascinating and challenging read! Thanks to all who offered input.

 

Isn't it interesting that in the US, we don't usually get training by experts till university or trade school level? In my own experience, my university organic chemistry professor was a CHEMIST...my university municipal wastewater professor was one of the pillars of the sewage treatment plant industry and wrote 'the book' on wastewater treatment design found in all design engineering firms in the world (I'll bet I'm the ONLY one here excited about THAT :001_smile:)...apparently in Italy government primary/secondary schools offer more access to these type of experts than in the US?

 

US Public School K-12 is populated primarily by 'education majors' as teachers, with no real subject expertise at all...

 

Anyway, I still like my liberty and am not looking for the Statists to approve what we're doing...

 

but thanks for the brain exercise...

 

I'll be sore tomorrow!

[Rosie_0801]

.my university municipal wastewater professor was one of the pillars of the sewage treatment plant industry and wrote 'the book' on wastewater treatment design found in all design engineering firms in the world (I'll bet I'm the ONLY one here excited about THAT :001_smile:)!

 

 

Possibly. ;) I probably couldn't understand 'the book' but I'd read the version with big pictures. People who live in drought prone countries pick up interests like that. I did say interests, not EXCITEMENTS though. So maybe you are the only one EXCITED about it. My brother might be, actually. He was given a book on wind and water power when he was 8 or nine and refused to read anything else for the next four years. He still reads up on those things now he's in his 20s.

 

:)

Rosie

[Sahamamama]

Sahamamama, regarding your s/o OP, you have an amazing knack for cutting through the smoke and finding the fire! The other thread was a fascinating and challenging read! Thanks to all who offered input.... Thanks for the brain exercise... I'll be sore tomorrow!

 

Thank you, BGW, so happy to oblige. :D

 

Now, back to the fire.

 

Ester Maria was right about at least one thing: Probably none of us are experts in everything, in every academic discipline. Is this necessary? Does expertise always measure mastery, or is there some other way?

 

If we admit to the benefits of expertise measuring a student's mastery (and I think I am somewhat convinced now, thanks for hanging in there, EM), how do we "collect"' enough expertise in order to properly evaluate our students?

 

If we are by-and-large wary of the state's "experts" measuring our students, then how do we measure ourselves within our own community? Would that even be credible? How can we, as home educators, maximize our own expertise? Alternatively, how can we find and "utilize" expert resources in our communities, in ways that do not drag us into the system we are trying to avoid?

 

Dawn posted some excellent ideas about how she has rounded up expertise for her own purposes. I'd like to hear more on this....

 

:bigear:

[Sebastian (a lady)]

Who am I accountable to?

 

First and foremost, I'm accountable to my children. As you say, it is going to take more than love or wishful thinking to get the job done. But that is the case with many parts of parenting, from feeding and clothing my kids to teaching them to be polite and responsible. Just because something is *Important* doesn't mean that it gets farmed out to an outside source for accomplishment or oversight.

 

I'm accountable to my husband, the father of my children. I mean that sincerely. I've told him that I will make sure our kids are equipped. That doesn't mean that I don't need his support (I do, both emotionally and practically). It does mean that at the end of the day (or month or year) that I need to know what we've done, what more needs done and where I need to seek help.

 

I'm accountable to wider circles, like extended family (because they love my kids and are concerned about their welfare), or homeschooling friends (because they also love my kids and want to see us suceed).

 

I'm accountable to God, because he's entrusted these humans, fellow children of God and beings with an eternal soul, into my care for a season.

 

Is turning in reading lists or test scores going to make things more serious somehow? As was mentioned in the other thread, it isn't as if public school based accountability systems are fool proof. We left Hawaii a couple years ago. The MAJORITY of public schools cannot get even half of their students to meet state standards. That means that MOST HAWAII PUBLIC SCHOOL STUDENTS ARE NOT BEING EDUCATED. But I should put myself and my children under some kind of accountability system with them? With a system that decided to take off an additional Friday every month last year to cut costs (but not increase the length of one of the scheduled vacation periods because that would have negatively impacted teacher retirement benefits).

 

I don't think that I have to have a greater *Expertise* in everything that my children will take on. I was a competitive fencer in school and in college. My parents never handled a foil unless it was to put my bag into the car. They had no expertise at all. They did make sure that I was under the instruction of good coaches. Likewise with German and advanced math.