question about unschooling

[mrs.m]

I'm not meaning to be judgemental. I think this is coming from ignorance on this form of schooling. So I'm asking you to help me understand!

 

I attend a Bible study every week. They have childcare for homeschoolers which is usually a couple homeschooled teenagers. In previous years, I have always sent work with my oldest children and they would complete it all before I picked them up. The teenagers bring work and the older kids help the younger kids. When they are finished, they can play board games or play in the gym. It's been a pleasant experience.

 

We have a new family this year which isn't uncommon we seem to add to the group each year! And I mentioned to the mom that we always bring work. (by we I'm including all the other families as well.) She said, "We unschool so I don't have any formal work for them." I asked her to please bring something for the children to do because my DD said they were interupting her begging her to play while she was trying to finish up. She said the teenagers couldn't get any of their work done either because they had to keep directing these children. I suggested she talk to the director to see if maybe they could be in with the preschoolers and have opportunity to play and join the older kids in the gym later. (and now that I write this, I feel bad about doing that. :glare: )

 

I would let it go. But my kids need to be working at this time--it's a weekday morning! I NEED this Bible study time so quiting isn't a great choice either. I think a room full of older kids without much to do for a couple hours can be disasterous! We've never expected programming out of the sitter. And since this is how it was always done, I never thought there would be a problem.

 

Was she for real though? She has nothing she can bring for them to do for 1-2 hours? What about a book to read or some math practice? Surely they are working on something? If this would be typical, maybe you can help me understand. Is she really unschooling?

[Pamela H in Texas]

Sure, she's probably really unschooling. And she doesn't want to assign work for her kids to do during that time. However, the children don't have the RIGHT to disrupt the entire group. They should be required (unless she believes in un-parenting and rudeness also?) to find something to do during that time. This doesn't have to be mom-chosen. And perhaps the group can have activities for people to do if they don't have any work to do. But they do need to choose SOMETHING.

 

Maybe the group could help brainstorm a list of things people can do so as not be disruptive when they've finished their work or didn't bring any work for the week? The kids certainly could choose from a list of things or choose to bring SOMETHING.

 

It is FINE, imo, for the family to run their lives any way they please. However, their rights only go as far as not stepping on the rights of others.

 

When *we* were in these situations, my kids could always find something appropriate to do. However, we parented in a way that didn't say that the world revolved around them. My *kids* wouldn't dream of bothering other people; but had they, I would have redirected them appropriately. So not all unschoolers are undisciplined and can't find something to do for 1-2 hours.

 

BTW, not saying they are either. Not all children are as mindful as mine have mostly been. That is pretty normal. So if mom was unaware she should encourage the children to find something appropriate to do, of course they acted up if there was nothing to do. It is very likely that with a little direction, they'll do just fine.

 

I winced at your words though. We really have to be careful, imo, how we approach other people about their parenting choices and children's behavior.

 

Anyway, things will get better, I'm sure.

[Jean in Newcastle]

I would just ask them to bring something that they would like to do quietly. That could be a craft, art supplies, books, an IPod or other device with headphones, a gaming device set to mute . . . The issue here is being quiet and being responsible for keeping themselves occupied, not schooling method.

[naturegirl7]

How old are the kids in question?? Maybe they are just excited about making new friends - it was their first day there after all. I know my son LOVES meeting new people and is a total chatter box when he makes a new friend (which is almost daily LOL).

Maybe they need some time to adjust -the imposed quiet schoolwork time is something totally new to them. Unschooled kids learn by doing and exploring and are used to having their energy harnessed and directed thru meaningful activities. They are used to being fairly independent. Sitting around waiting for other kids to finish schoolwork and being told "no. no. no" isn't going to work well for anyone - it will be a challenge if they do not have something stimulating to engage them. Heck, it would be a challenge for me! I'd be bored to tears in 5 minutes if I didn't have good book or something.

 

Also putting them in with preschool kids - it is totally inappropriate and I would be incredibly offended and downright livid if someone suggested that about my child. Especially at church. Especially after only 1 encounter. Totally unfair.

 

Honestly just sit down with the mom in question and explain to her what is happening. I doubt she has any clue - most kiddos don't leave and tell their parents "I was a total PITA to the other kids today" LOL

Tell her that for the other children, it is a schoolwork first time and then playtime. And that their playing and talking to the other kids during this time is very distracting for them, causing it to take long to accomplish their assigned tasks and leaving less time for socialization as a group.

 

Ask her if her kids can pick *something* out to bring with them so they can play independently without creating a distraction until everyone is ready to socialize. It could be a book, a game, a craft project - anything quiet. I mean they have to be interested in SOMETHING that they can bring with them. Or perhaps the people in charge can get them to pick out one of the games there to play, and get them all set up with it - rather than expected them to choose something and sit quietly.

 

We solely unschooled up until recently and have quite a few friends that unschool too - non of us are radical unschoolers though and we believe in gentle discipline which entails lots of talking and redirecting and modeling - not punishments or withholding. It can be super challenging for people who are not used to this technique (like my parents LOL). We don't do time outs, so if another adult tries to put DS into a time out, he says no way and won't do it. We "take a break" and talk about things quite frequently though ;)

 

That said, I don't like or want my child to be bored or be disruptive. When we go places - he picks out a bunch of books and quiet toys to occupy him and we take those with us. Occasionally I will pick up a new book for him and surprise him with it if I know it is going to be a rough time of it for him (long wait times, lots of other distractions for him, etc).

[GoVanGogh]

The issue here is being quiet and being responsible for keeping themselves occupied, not schooling method.

:iagree:

We are very relaxed with our schooling and school schedule. I take DS to a number of places where he needs to be quiet and behaved and keep himself occupied. (Like when I get my hair cut, water aerobics, board meetings for club I am in, etc.) I always tell him, "Go pack your backpack with quiet items to keep you busy for x-amount of time."

I don't care if he packs books, small toys, video game w/headphones, etc.

[Ruby]

I would talk to whoever is in charge of the Bible study. We had one similarly in the past and work was expected first before they got a chance to go play. If you talk to whoever is in charge maybe the work/quiet time that just sort of worked out for everyone can become a formal policy. Then to be part of the study it will be required that all children bring work, a book, art supplies for drawing or something equally quiet. Then you are not the bad guy, anyone joining has in writing what is expected and then you can have more of a basis for a gentle complaint instead of just your preference. Hope that helps.

[naturegirl7]

Was she for real though? She has nothing she can bring for them to do for 1-2 hours? What about a book to read or some math practice? Surely they are working on something? If this would be typical, maybe you can help me understand. Is she really unschooling?

 

What exactly do you mean by "really unschooling"??

 

Most unschoolers don't "work on something" in the sense that you think of - for instance math practice likely entails baking and cooking, shopping, paying for things with money, board games, legos, etc. There is no formalized sit downto learn 1 + 1 = 2 time or worksheets to practice with. Counting, adding, subtracting - that is stuff that is done on a daily basis and is learned on a daily basis thru those life activities. Unless of course you have a kid who WANTS to sit down and do worksheets, then you provide them.

Depending on the age (and interest)- the child may not be reading independently and would struggle with a book being sent.

 

It is not the manner in which these children learn that is the issue here though - they are excited to make needs friends and obviously did not have materials with them (OR provided to them while there) that adequately kept them engaged so that the other children could do their school work. THAT is the issue that needs to be addressed, and if presented in a kind manner to the mother involved, I am sure she would be more than happy to let her kiddos pick some quiet activities to bring with them and talk to them about the expectation to be quiet while the other kids work. Perhaps she didn't know in advance that the other kids brought schoolwork? Perhaps she thought it was more of a socialization time for the kiddos?

[angela in ohio]

:iagree:

We are very relaxed with our schooling and school schedule. I take DS to a number of places where he needs to be quiet and behaved and keep himself occupied. (Like when I get my hair cut, water aerobics, board meetings for club I am in, etc.) I always tell him, "Go pack your backpack with quiet items to keep you busy for x-amount of time."

I don't care if he packs books, small toys, video game w/headphones, etc.

 

Exactly. According to my unschooler friends, their dc should me MORE capable, not less, of occupying themselves. ;)

 

Does she have youngish dc? It sounds like she is eager to fly the unschool banner, but doesn't really understand what it means. It certainly doesn't mean having dc that can't quietly occupy themselves.

[Cedarmom]

I agree you should explain the expectations to the mom. In future, someone should explain before hand to any mom's that it is a work/quiet time for the kids so the mom can come prepared. I am not an unschooler , but my son at that age would have been bothering the other kids to play. I probably would have opted out when my son was elementary age, sitting quietly while there were other kids to play with would have been a real struggle for all. So, I think it would be nice for moms to know what the expectations are up front so they can decide if they want to join and so they can prepare their kids.

[HS Mom in NC]

Here's the Unschooling section from the workshop I'm developing about different homeschooling methods.

 

 

=== Unschooling Approaches A and B===

This is a broad term that applies to two distinct groups.

 

 

Group A

 

 

Generally believes children are wired for learning, and their job as teachers is to avoid interfering with the learning process. Their job is also to provide access to learning (books, lab equipment, etc.) guided by the child’s interests. They do not necessarily think children need to be “taught†outside of answering questions and teaching reading, writing, and arithmetic. Think Thomas Edison and John Holt.

 

 

 

Group B

 

 

Designs every learning experience to answer the question, “When am I going to use this in real life?†by actually using almost exclusively real life, hands on, applied situations and projects. Only the real world here. They tend to be systematic and adult directed but are very careful to take additional time to follow a child’s interests some too.

 

 

You cannot assume that what they child is currently working on as an unschooling project could be brought to your gathering. I know an unschooled kid (finished High School including Calculus by age 12) designing computer animation by designing his own software. He is using trigonometry to calculate the shadows on his images which required his computer. He is also working on a robotics project which requires a lab and power tools.

 

 

 

Typically when homeschoolers get together every time I've done it on a weekday morning they were expected to interact with each other the whole time. They either have games (board games or physical games like sports) or they are expected to just socialize. I can't think of a gathering where homeschoolers have been together that they were doing seat work or writing assignments. Those kids of situations are labeled co-ops or some such thing so it's clear academics is the focus. Based on my personal experiences in the largest homeschool community (Maricopa County, AZ with 10,000+ homeschooled kids) for 10 years, it seems that their expectations of interaction the whole time seems to be within our cultural norm. We would not have expected kids to spend an hour or two doing school work at an event like you describe.

 

 

 

It's clear to me that the parents are expected to be paying attention in the Bible Study. I am not clear on what new people are told about what their children will be doing. Are they told about the Bible Study and that their school aged children should bring school work? Is someone deciding what all children (including other people's children) should be doing? Is each parent supposed to decide what their own children are doing? Are there reasonably appropriate settings if different parents decide differently what their children should be doing, such as a quiet room for school work and a room or outdoor area where kids can chat, play, and socialize the whole time?

[mrs.m]

What exactly do you mean by "really unschooling"??

 

Perhaps she didn't know in advance that the other kids brought schoolwork? Perhaps she thought it was more of a socialization time for the kiddos?

 

Oh! I suppose that did sound judgemental. Not my intention at all. As I said, I didn't mean to be ignorant. I was asking for understanding. In another thread some people referred to "non-schooling". I'm not trying to judge how she does school, I'm trying to figure out if I'm going to get anywhere if I talk to her again.

 

I think some of you are missing that I did talk to her. I just find it odd that she was argumentative at the request that her children bring something to do and she kept using the unschooling like that was a reason for her kids to not have something to do. :confused: I'm not saying that she has to lug in the textbooks. She could bring a laptop and have them watch movies with headphones or anything for that matter.

 

I was gracious since it was her first time. I didn't expect her to know and was asking that something could be prepared for the next week. But now I also get that this might not have anything to do with her schooling choices.

[mrs.m]

Typically when homeschoolers get together every time I've done it on a weekday morning they were expected to interact with each other the whole time. They either have games (board games or physical games like sports) or they are expected to just socialize. I can't think of a gathering where homeschoolers have been together that they were doing seat work or writing assignments. Those kids of situations are labeled co-ops or some such thing so it's clear academics is the focus. Based on my personal experiences in the largest homeschool community (Maricopa County, AZ with 10,000+ homeschooled kids) for 10 years, it seems that their expectations of interaction the whole time seems to be within our cultural norm. We would not have expected kids to spend an hour or two doing school work at an event like you describe.

?

 

I'm not willing to debate this. It has been done this way for years. It just is.

 

I understand that for first timers it's hard to know what to do.

[Cedarmom]

 

I think some of you are missing that I did talk to her. I just find it odd that she was argumentative at the request that her children bring something to do and she kept using the unschooling like that was a reason for her kids to not have something to do. :confused: I'm not saying that she has to lug in the textbooks. She could bring a laptop and have them watch movies with headphones or anything for that matter.

 

I was gracious since it was her first time. I didn't expect her to know and was asking that something could be prepared for the next week. But now I also get that this might not have anything to do with her schooling choices.

 

Is there someone who is officially your group leader? If you have have already talked to the lady, and it is your group policy to have quiet time, then the lady needs to be told (by your leader? ) firmly that it is the policy that all childhren come prepared to sit and do something quietly on their own, if she does not think that her children can do this, then she needs to find another Bible study. As you said, it really has not as much to do with her schooling choices as the fact that it is the expectation that kids sit quietly that she needs to understand.

[angela in ohio]

Typically when homeschoolers get together every time I've done it on a weekday morning they were expected to interact with each other the whole time. They either have games (board games or physical games like sports) or they are expected to just socialize. I can't think of a gathering where homeschoolers have been together that they were doing seat work or writing assignments. Those kids of situations are labeled co-ops or some such thing so it's clear academics is the focus. Based on my personal experiences in the largest homeschool community (Maricopa County, AZ with 10,000+ homeschooled kids) for 10 years, it seems that their expectations of interaction the whole time seems to be within our cultural norm. We would not have expected kids to spend an hour or two doing school work at an event like you describe.

 

I think the difference is that this is not a homeschool activity. This is a Bible study. This is exactly how the Wednesday morning Bible study I was in was set up. Each dc brought their own work and we had older dc as monitors who were also doing their own work.

[Laura Corin]

Perhaps if you hadn't said 'work' but instead said 'a book' or 'something to do' then the message might have got across.

 

Laura

[m0mmaBuck]

I think the difference is that this is not a homeschool activity. This is a Bible study. This is exactly how the Wednesday morning Bible study I was in was set up. Each dc brought their own work and we had older dc as monitors who were also doing their own work.

 

I see what the OP is saying here. The activity is actually a Bible study for the adults, not necessarily a homeschool activity for the kids. The kids are merely there because that's where the adults need to be. The older children who monitor the kids expect to be able to work. The younger kids are expected to bring their own quiet form of entertainment, be it schoolwork or a video game.

 

I think the best way to handle the situation would be to make it known (ideally before the adult's first visit to the study) that this is an adult activity. Children are welcome to tag along but will need to be able to entertain themselves in some fashion for the hour that the adults are doing their Bible study.

[HS Mom in NC]

Then it appears this is either a communication problem or a compatibility problem.

 

I would suggest when offering this Bible Study to parents (I am assuming the only parents with school aged children there are homechoolers) that this is an adult Bible Study with a quiet study hall or individual seated quiet activity for school aged kids. I suggest it go out in writing (you would be surprised at situations where people think they communicated something clearly and the listener got something very different out of it) with start time, location, dates, contact info for someone willing to answer any questions and a list of approved activities such as:

 

1. Silently reading a book

2. Quiet personal electronics or activities with headsets (Ipod, laptop w/movie and headsets, Nintendo DS with the volume off, etc.)

3. Seat work for school

4. Handcrafting (quilting, embroidery, etc.)

5. other activities that fit within this category

 

No one new is going to know how something has been done for years unless you specifically tell them.

 

If, after this has been explained while a written copy has been given, the parent chooses to allow the child(ren) to continue in interactive play at this event, then the person in charge of the Bible Study needs to explain to the parent privately that this event is not a good fit for their family. If they want to be particularly gracious they can suggest the names of homeschoolers to be contacted some time other than the Bible Study for social/interactive events in their area.

[Farrar]

Depending on the age and personalities of the kids, maybe they would actually enjoy (and not be insulted by) being the special helpers for the toddler group?

 

I agree that this seems like a culture clash. She may have been defensive because she was surprised by the guidelines and you very inadvertently made her feel like there was something wrong with her kids or her schooling method because you didn't really understand it. If you speak to her again, I would start by apologizing for not "getting it" at first and getting off on the wrong foot. Then suggest quiet things that aren't schoolwork up front, like you did here. Then saying something like that you totally respect that her kids learn through a different method but you hope she can help them respect that the other kids have more traditional work to do. Just a guess, but she may also be looking for other social opportunities for the kids - if you know of other times that the kids get together to play, maybe you could point her to those?

[HS Mom in NC]

I think I've figured out the source of confusion here.

 

I understand that this is an event for a mixed group (not only homeschoolers) and the focus is not homeschooling related (Bible Study.) I have been to nursing moms groups, moms groups, Ladies' Ministry Planning sessions, and parental rights oriented groups meeting during institutional school hours which were mixed. The children not homeschooled were preschoolers, and the school aged kids were all homeschooled (due ot the time and day of the event.) In all of them, it was expected that the homeschooled kids interact with each other nearby in a room or outdoor play area (but not at a volume level that interrupted the adult meeting.) So, when I explain that it's a cultural norm, I'm not talking about a cultural norm at homeschooling oriented event.

 

When you tell a parent the children must entertain or occupy themselves without expressly stating it should be individual and quiet, you leave the door open for interpretation that the children should entertain or occupy themselves by engaging each other in free play or conversation.

 

There's nothing at all wrong with running it the way you do, you just can't assume anyone else would automatically think of it being run that way.

[mrs.m]

When you tell a parent the children must entertain or occupy themselves without expressly stating it should be individual and quiet, you leave the door open for interpretation that the children should entertain or occupy themselves by engaging each other in free play or conversation.

 

There's nothing at all wrong with running it the way you do, you just can't assume anyone else would automatically think of it being run that way.

 

I don't run the program.

 

But it's possible that your area has a different cultural norm than our area. I don't know. I haven't been to other churches to find out. I really don't understand what that has to do with the topic at hand? I wasn't assuming that she would know to bring activities. I know it was her first time and that's an unrealistic expectation for a first timer. As I said before I was asking her to have something for next time. I may not have done that correctly but how could I know that using the word "work" would cause such an issue? I didn't know she was an unschooler. It's not written on foreheads. :lol: But the issue here has nothing to do with me expecting her to know something the first time.

 

I called her and set up a play date (she's a friend of a friend). I think all has been smoothed over on that end of things.

Edited September 3, 2010 by jannylynn

[angela in ohio]

I may not have done that correctly but how could I know that using the word "work" would cause such an issue? I didn't know she was an unschooler. It's not written on foreheads. :lol: But the issue here has nothing to do with me expecting her to know something the first time.

 

You did nothing wrong. Schooling method has nothing to do with whether a child can occupy themself quietly for an hour or two. I know (gasp!) public school students who can do that. That was likely her defense because she felt bad that her dc wouldn't listen when told to stop bothering others.

 

Incidentally, some of the worst offenders for not being able to keep to themselves during quiet time at our Bible study were the overly-schooled/scheduled children who literally couldn't occupy themselves without mom dinging a bell and giving them the next assignment. :glare: