I am beginning to detest dictation

[kwickimom]

Seriously... my DD8 is doing WWE 2 and I have to read these sentences to her like 9 million times and she never ever gets them right. EVER. this takes forever and we both hate it and I dont see the point. Its like torture.

She makes up words in her head and thats what she remembers. Not what I tell her. I even break it down into 2 words at a time and she will get it wrong.

 

Remind me why I should continue? And dont say it gets better...she has only gotten worse and now she hates it.

[Jen+4dc]

:grouphug: We just hit week 28 of WWE 2 and are all of a sudden having the same problems.

 

:bigear:

[Halcyon]

I have been working with my son since January on WWE2 and in the beginning, it was very hard. I had to break the sentences down into very small bite-size pieces--as in one to two words. Then he would repeat those back to me. Slowly, slowly, slowly we made progress. I would act out the sentences ("The cat JUMPED on the BED" as I jump on the bed meowing....) and then he would act them out too. It helped and it lightened the mood.

 

You may even consider simply doing copy work for a while if it's gotten really bad. Also, try using sentences like:

 

"The dog ran."

"The raindrops fell."

"John is funny."

 

Don't feel compelled to do the dictations in WWE2--it's still a wonderful text for reading comp and literature exposure.

[MrsMe]

Honestly, I don't see how dictation works without some basic knowledge of phonics before and during the emerging reader phase. I find it useful for a little older kids (9+) for spelling in context and using grammar and punctuation in context, but not really before learning what all that is about. Just a personal opinion, but not much help. :tongue_smilie:

[abrightmom]

:D I'm usually no help but what about using studied dictation (this is a Charlotte Mason method I believe)? I don't have a link and I can't explain it in detail. However, I DO remember that it is basically allowing the child to "study" the sentence/passage/whatever BEFORE writing it from dictation. This allows them to grapple with difficult to spell words, visualize the punctuation, etc.

 

Might be worth a little google search on "studied dictation a la Charlotte Mason" . . . or something like that.

 

I'm getting nervous because WWE2 is right around the corner.

[mmasmommy]

We had the same problem with WWE4. This is our 1st year hsing so there was no build up. The length and complexity of the sentences is insane! We ended up dropping it because DD was in tears daily and for me it wasn't worth it.

[MrsMe]

:D I'm usually no help but what about using studied dictation (this is a Charlotte Mason method I believe)? I don't have a link and I can't explain it in detail. However, I DO remember that it is basically allowing the child to "study" the sentence/passage/whatever BEFORE writing it from dictation. This allows them to grapple with difficult to spell words, visualize the punctuation, etc.

 

Might be worth a little google search on "studied dictation a la Charlotte Mason" . . . or something like that.

 

I'm getting nervous because WWE2 is right around the corner.

 

Charlotte Mason does do this. So you may want them to study it first. I think it's much more helpful. WWE does not do this. Try it. You may find it much less destestful. :001_smile:

[kwickimom]

Honestly, I don't see how dictation works without some basic knowledge of phonics before and during the emerging reader phase. I find it useful for a little older kids (9+) for spelling in context and using grammar and punctuation in context, but not really before learning what all that is about. Just a personal opinion, but not much help. :tongue_smilie:

 

Actually thats major help because all I want is people to tell me to drop it so I can stop whining!:lol::lol::lol:

 

Seriously though I cannot see how it gets better. I am wondering, since my DD is a total Visual learner, if she will ever get it. Are some people just not ever going to do well with dictation and is it just torturing them to learn it? I feel as if it is not working, it needs to go. This is one of the reasons I wanted to HS. To not torture my kids with learning that they cannot get because they dont learn a certain way. On the flip side, I LOVE TWTM and I really wanted to follow it.

 

So I dont know if I am just being a baby and not wanting to push too hard, or if I am legit to drop it with a visual learner.

 

I think I may do studied dictation and see what happens. I like the idea of dictation, but I do not want to hate a subject, I feel it will be a waste if we dont like it. I am not saying we have to LOVE everything, some stuff is just hard work...I am struggling with the fact that this child loves reading and writing and I am currently killing that love

[Robin in DFW]

There is detailed information on how to do dictation. There is also a video in which Sonya Schaffer explains it in great detail.

 

hth

[Cindyz]

I have slowed down with WW1 because of threads like this. I want him to be a little bit older before starting WW2. It sounds like WW2 is a bit of a jump from WW1?

[MrsMe]

Actually thats major help because all I want is people to tell me to drop it so I can stop whining!:lol::lol::lol:

 

Seriously though I cannot see how it gets better. I am wondering, since my DD is a total Visual learner, if she will ever get it. Are some people just not ever going to do well with dictation and is it just torturing them to learn it? I feel as if it is not working, it needs to go. This is one of the reasons I wanted to HS. To not torture my kids with learning that they cannot get because they dont learn a certain way. On the flip side, I LOVE TWTM and I really wanted to follow it.

 

So I dont know if I am just being a baby and not wanting to push too hard, or if I am legit to drop it with a visual learner.

 

I think I may do studied dictation and see what happens. I like the idea of dictation, but I do not want to hate a subject, I feel it will be a waste if we dont like it. I am not saying we have to LOVE everything, some stuff is just hard work...I am struggling with the fact that this child loves reading and writing and I am currently killing that love

 

Studied dictation as we do in HOD, is all about visual. It’s all about what looks right and having a child know it’s right or wrong by looking at it. It’s not done however until they’ve done spelling words broken out phonetically. I’m not exactly sure how WWE breaks it all out. But studied dictation would seem to work well for your visual child. She has nothing to go on by just giving her a sentence to write. Have her study them first. Point out the capitalization, any words she doesn’t know and any punctuation. When she is ready, take it away and dictate it to her. If she gets anything wrong, have her correct it and circle the incorrectness on the original text (could be that you wrote it on an index card). It also helps them spell and use grammar and punctuation in context…after studying. They see how it comes together.

If that doesn’t work, then ditch it.

[cheryl h]

I suggest listening to her Writing Without Fear lecture, as well as the Writing: The Elementary Years. They are both very encouraging. These are really helpful in gauging what reasonable expectations are at each developmental stage, and awesome advise on what exactly to do if you hit the same problem you are having. After listening to those lectures, I would recommend going back to 3-4 word sentences and see how that goes. We just started WWE4, without any WWE background and it was really rough the first day, lots of tears. Tears all week, but I can see that there is a hint of progress so we will keep on keepin' on. I know you are discouraged, but don't give up. It's like teaching your children to fall asleep on their own, or to self sooth. It is really hard in the beginning to listen to the frustration and tears, but it must be done, we must teach them how to get the words on the paper. I hope you are encouraged.

[Homemama2]

what about using studied dictation (this is a Charlotte Mason method I believe

 

We dropped WWE for this reason. My ds had been doing narrations w/ AmblesideOnline and so the WWE narration selections were too easy....the dictations were insanely hard...and I still wanted him doing copywork but that stopped. lol!

I think in this area I lean more towards CM than classical hsing....so take this with a grain of salt! :D

 

We started studied dictation this year using Spelling Wisdom (found on simplycharlottemason.com) and this has worked really well for us. However it's a very different approach. With WWE the point is to get them to remember the sentence in their head so that they can write it down (at least that's what I understand it to be). Spelling is not the issue, so you spell the words they don't know etc. With CM, the focus is spelling and grammar. The child studies it ahead of time, learning the words and punctuation. Then you read the sentence once and they copy it all down perfectly.

 

I see benefits in using both kinds of dictation. But I think for "us", if I do WWE dictations I will be using the text as a guide and not the workbook because my ds could not handle those long sentences.

[NanceXToo]

Actually thats major help because all I want is people to tell me to drop it so I can stop whining!:lol::lol::lol:

 

By all means, drop it! We don't do "dictation" and I don't personally see any need to!

 

Did I help? LOL.

[mmasmommy]

By all means, drop it! We don't do "dictation" and I don't personally see any need to!

 

Did I help? LOL.

 

I <3 you Nance!! :D

[In2why]

I have slowed down with WW1 because of threads like this. I want him to be a little bit older before starting WW2. It sounds like WW2 is a bit of a jump from WW1?

 

 

Me too. I think the idea is valid, but it doesn't need to be this hard. If my son hated it, I would shelve it for awhile or find simpler sentences.

[Karen in CO]

I'd have her do studied dictation until that is easy before moving into "real" dication. I think they get all of the benefits of dication from the studied, but with fewer tears.

 

fwiw - my youngest is doing PP for reading, and this time, I know better than to skip the dictation.

[Jenny in GA]

I have slowed down with WW1 because of threads like this. I want him to be a little bit older before starting WW2. It sounds like WW2 is a bit of a jump from WW1?

 

I don't know, but my oldest is nine and in "fourth grade" and about halfway through WWE2.

 

She does it regularly, but it is NOT "too easy" for her. In fact, sometimes it is a struggle.

 

No way could she have it at the beginning of second grade.

 

Jenny

[msjones]

I say there is no point in continuing with something if it's that much of a battle. There are many ways to teach language arts without SWB's version of dictation.

 

One of the main benefits of homeschooling, in my opinion, is a parent's ability to quickly switch to something new if necessary.

 

Personally, I have my boys study any dictation passages prior to their writing them. In our house, that's the whole point; the passages are discussed and taught, then dictated.

 

The children in my house need lots of teaching, lots of support and examples before they are tested. And I do see SWB's version of dictation as something of a test. I know the concepts are introduced in the little 'lessons,' but those teeny 'lessons' aren't even close to being enough for my boys to master anything.

 

I know lots of people love WWE as written, but in our house, it has taken some tweaking.

[kwickimom]

I <3 you Nance!! :D

 

:D:D:D:D

 

Thanks to all replies. I will mull it over.

 

I am wondering if keeping with it will make her a better auditory learner or will be futile seeing as she is a visual learner. I did listen to SWB lectures, but I dont think I have ever heard if she thinks this is good for visual and auditory learners alike.

 

My first step I think will be to try the dictations as "studied" and to throw in some shorter sentences for SWB style dictation. We'll see how it goes!

[kwickimom]

I have slowed down with WW1 because of threads like this. I want him to be a little bit older before starting WW2. It sounds like WW2 is a bit of a jump from WW1?

 

 

I would like to know this also. We didnt do WWE1. I also wonder if this can be "learned" throuhg practice for a visual learner.

 

Anyone have a visual learner who got better through keeping at WWE??

[LindaOz]

Actually thats major help because all I want is people to tell me to drop it so I can stop whining!:lol::lol::lol:

 

Seriously though I cannot see how it gets better. I am wondering, since my DD is a total Visual learner, if she will ever get it. Are some people just not ever going to do well with dictation and is it just torturing them to learn it? I feel as if it is not working, it needs to go. This is one of the reasons I wanted to HS. To not torture my kids with learning that they cannot get because they dont learn a certain way. On the flip side, I LOVE TWTM and I really wanted to follow it.

 

So I dont know if I am just being a baby and not wanting to push too hard, or if I am legit to drop it with a visual learner.

 

I think I may do studied dictation and see what happens. I like the idea of dictation, but I do not want to hate a subject, I feel it will be a waste if we dont like it. I am not saying we have to LOVE everything, some stuff is just hard work...I am struggling with the fact that this child loves reading and writing and I am currently killing that love

 

I haven't read all the responses so please ignore me if I am saying what has already been said ;)

 

My suggestions would be:

 

1. Do the studied dictation. If your dd is a visual learner then looking at the sentences first, and talking through the punctuation, spelling, structure etc could really help her. Have her read the passage aloud and discuss it before you give it from dictation. As she masters this, you can gradually move to more 'listening' and less 'seeing'. In other words, meet her where she's at now.

 

2. Don't treat 'writing' as the subject but do your dictation from a subject/topic that your dd is interested in. It might be a favorite story, or a sentence from a book about an animal she loves, or something interesting from her history reading. You could even have her choose her own dictation to start with, then gradually add your choice as well. This focusses on the skill (dictation) rather than the resource (in this case WWE).

 

Hope this makes sense.

All the best :)

[forty-two]

I am wondering if keeping with it will make her a better auditory learner or will be futile seeing as she is a visual learner. I did listen to SWB lectures, but I dont think I have ever heard if she thinks this is good for visual and auditory learners alike.

 

I also wonder if this can be "learned" throuhg practice for a visual learner.

 

Anyone have a visual learner who got better through keeping at WWE??

:bigear:

 

This is *exactly* what I am wondering. I am an intensely visual learner, partly b/c of what I suspect is undiagnosed CAPD. Studied dictation would be a breeze for me - I could just close my eyes and see the words on the page - but "cold" dictation would be hard, though doable in a quiet environment with no distractions. I'd have to start small, though, and work hard. It's the same thing wrt mental math - easy-peasy on a worksheet, but *hard* if I get the problem orally.

 

My inclination is that a) with work, I would be able to get better, and b) that it is worth the work. (It's on my self-ed list.)

 

I mean, right now my aural comprehension sucks, quite frankly, though it is (barely) adequate enough for everyday life. And it is light-years behind my visual comprehension. It never used to bug me, b/c, hey, I'm just not an auditory learner. Nothing I can do about it, just how I'm made, right? :glare:

 

But somehow, learning about CAPD and realizing that *that* was probably the reason for my auditory comprehension issues - not some amorphous "learning style" - has changed how I look at things. While I was apparently content to let my learning style dictate my destiny :glare:, I am *not* content to let some brain mis-wiring continue to impede my life.

 

And this is coming from someone who was so good at compensating that it never really impeded my academic life at all. Even now, I don't *have* to "fix it" in order to continue on with my self-ed. I've done well enough for 29 years, after all. It's just that I'm sick and tired of not even having the *option* of being an auditory learner :glare:. So, whether or not WWE is a good idea, I think working to ensure your dd is at least *capable* and somewhat comfortable with auditory learning is a v. v. good idea.

[JadeOrchidSong]

We had the same problem with WWE4. This is our 1st year hsing so there was no build up. The length and complexity of the sentences is insane! We ended up dropping it because DD was in tears daily and for me it wasn't worth it.

Amy,

If you do WWE 2 I guess it will be a better fit. My son is turning 8 and we are doing WWE 1. For someone who hasn't done copywork prior to dictation or hasn't done shorter sentence dictation as in the earlier levels, WWE 4 will be very hard. So I think a 9 yr old can do WWE 2 and has an easier time. We started WWE 1 when ds was closer to 8 than 7, not by choice, just because I didn't know about WWE before. He likes it a lot. Dictation is a skill to be learned with baby steps rather than big jumps. Hope this is a kind of encouragement to you.

[AppleGreen]

I don't know, but my oldest is nine and in "fourth grade" and about halfway through WWE2.

 

She does it regularly, but it is NOT "too easy" for her. In fact, sometimes it is a struggle.

 

No way could she have it at the beginning of second grade.

 

Yup! We started WWE3 halfway through last year w/ my then 3rd grader and it was way, way too frustrating. He definitely has a tough time with spelling in context and while linguistically he is very gifted, he's definitely got some learning "quirks" in the reading/spelling areas. We are now halfway through WWE2 and it has been a much better fit. He has improved greatly in his ability to write the dictations. For particularly troublesome sentences I have him study the sentence until he feels ready to do the dictation. I have also started including the punctuation marks in my dictation. (I think Esther Marie suggested that in a thread a couple of weeks ago?) Anyway, I am very pleased with how his spelling has improved and his thoughtfulness to getting the sentences down correctly, but it has literally been in the last couple of weeks that I have seen the shift (and we took a long summer break). I am really starting to see and appreciate the value in dictation.

 

If you really don't like or don't want to do dictation-ditch it! If you want to keep it, I'd say back up. Did you do WWE1? If not, I dial back to that.

[WeeBeaks]

Did you do WWE1 already? If not, maybe backstep. The complexity of the sentences is a lot for WWE2, IMHO.

 

WWE2 does use studied dictation though, at least to the point we have gotten in WWE, about week 20 I think? On the day prior to the dictation, you have the very same phrase as copywork and are supposed to discuss elements in it (detailed in the teacher portion) so the student keys into the dictation passage and really studies it. I figured my DS would realize that he was just writing what he copied the prior day, but that fact seemed to escape him totally. :001_huh: Once I began reminding him on the copywork day that he would be writing the passage on the following day, it did help because he paid more attention.

[Laura in STL]

My oldest is a visual learner, too. We have done WWE 2 - 4 and are now doing dictation from literature in 5th grade. The dictation was never easy for him, but it has helped him to order his thoughts for writing. I think this is sometimes hard for visual learners.

 

I would take the suggestion to make the sentences as easy as necessary or even go back to copywork for awhile. I agree the studied dictation would be a good in between step. We did that for awhile, too. Hope this helps.

[siloam]

Seriously... my DD8 is doing WWE 2 and I have to read these sentences to her like 9 million times and she never ever gets them right. EVER. this takes forever and we both hate it and I dont see the point. Its like torture.

She makes up words in her head and thats what she remembers. Not what I tell her. I even break it down into 2 words at a time and she will get it wrong.

 

Remind me why I should continue? And dont say it gets better...she has only gotten worse and now she hates it.

 

There are different ways to do dictation. I personally do WWE about a year behind ideal to make sure their reading/spelling level is above WWE, so it won't be frustrating. I also give it to them a word at a time and not by whole sentences. We are all dyslexic here, to varying degrees, and the sentence would never come out right. That said my kids have generally done dictation since K, roughly a sentence a day. My oldest two I just hand a mini-recorder with a whole week on it at a time. My 3rd dd isn't a good speller so I sit with her, give it to her word by word, and sound out or spell any words she struggles with.

 

Despite not doing the hold in the mind work both my older two girls are doing fine with their writing instruction. They have no problem remembering and holding ideas in their minds. Though being dyslexic and picture oriented that is probably because they are "seeing" it in their minds like movies. It is easy then to just play it back, as needed. ;)

 

Heather

[Annie Laurie]

Anyone have a visual learner who got better through keeping at WWE??

 

I do. My son had/has auditory processing issues and is highly visual. He has a "photographic memory" and remembers practically anything he sees. But hearing things and remembering them are another thing entirely. He was so frustrated, he would cry sometimes over the dictation, and over the narration, because he could never answer any of the questions, and I seriously considered dropping it.

 

What I did was I let him read the passage to himself on narration day. Seeing it helped him a lot with his narrations, and then later with dictation, because he had seen it earlier in the narration passage.

 

I didn't have him look at the dictation, because I figured he had seen it for both narration and copywork, and I wanted him to practice listening and strengthen his auditory skills. But if it was a longer dictation, I would trim it down for him. I would read in smaller chunks and have him repeat the chunk back, then add another small chunk, and he'd repeat both of them. We'd do that as much as we had to until he could repeat it back. I watched him closely, and the minute he started writing something down wrong, I'd have him stop and I'd repeat the passage and he would repeat it back to me all over again.

 

I really feel that sticking with dictation strengthened his auditory skills a lot and has helped him in other areas. Dictation is much better now, he still has bad days, but I don't usually have to repeat it so many times and he can handle a longer passage.

 

Like Heather, I keep my ds in a level below his grade level, since this is a frustrating area for him. He's just starting level 3 and beginning 4th grade.

 

RE studied dictation: Isn't that what happens in WWE 2, with them using the passage as copywork the day before they have it as dictation? You point out special punctuation and such in the copywork, and point it out again when they use it as dictation. There are instructions in the workbook on how to pause so they hear the punctuation, and on special vocab and other things that may be tricky for the child, to point out before beginning.

[delaney]

Amy,

If you do WWE 2 I guess it will be a better fit. My son is turning 8 and we are doing WWE 1. For someone who hasn't done copywork prior to dictation or hasn't done shorter sentence dictation as in the earlier levels, WWE 4 will be very hard. So I think a 9 yr old can do WWE 2 and has an easier time. We started WWE 1 when ds was closer to 8 than 7, not by choice, just because I didn't know about WWE before. He likes it a lot. Dictation is a skill to be learned with baby steps rather than big jumps. Hope this is a kind of encouragement to you.

My 5th grade DD has never done any of it and this is the first year of HS so we are doing WWE2. I plan on going quickly through some of it and starting WWE3 before the year ends. She gave me a dirty look the first time I read the sentence to her:glare:

[MelissaMinNC]

Simply Charlotte Mason has a great video tutorial that shows how to do a studied dictation. I think you can also find it on youtube. Also, you could read about studied or prepared dictation (I've seen it called both) on charlottemasonhelp.com or in the Original Homeschool Series (either the original or modern translations) on Ambleside Online.

 

We do studied dictation here and have had success with this method. Dd still grumbles occasionally, but it seems more for form - she always does well with the exercises.

 

HTH,

Melissa

[kwickimom]

I do. My son had/has auditory processing issues and is highly visual. He has a "photographic memory" and remembers practically anything he sees. But hearing things and remembering them are another thing entirely. He was so frustrated, he would cry sometimes over the dictation, and over the narration, because he could never answer any of the questions, and I seriously considered dropping it.

 

What I did was I let him read the passage to himself on narration day. Seeing it helped him a lot with his narrations, and then later with dictation, because he had seen it earlier in the narration passage.

 

I didn't have him look at the dictation, because I figured he had seen it for both narration and copywork, and I wanted him to practice listening and strengthen his auditory skills. But if it was a longer dictation, I would trim it down for him. I would read in smaller chunks and have him repeat the chunk back, then add another small chunk, and he'd repeat both of them. We'd do that as much as we had to until he could repeat it back. I watched him closely, and the minute he started writing something down wrong, I'd have him stop and I'd repeat the passage and he would repeat it back to me all over again.

 

I really feel that sticking with dictation strengthened his auditory skills a lot and has helped him in other areas. Dictation is much better now, he still has bad days, but I don't usually have to repeat it so many times and he can handle a longer passage.

 

Like Heather, I keep my ds in a level below his grade level, since this is a frustrating area for him. He's just starting level 3 and beginning 4th grade.

 

RE studied dictation: Isn't that what happens in WWE 2, with them using the passage as copywork the day before they have it as dictation? You point out special punctuation and such in the copywork, and point it out again when they use it as dictation. There are instructions in the workbook on how to pause so they hear the punctuation, and on special vocab and other things that may be tricky for the child, to point out before beginning.

 

THANK YOU for responding with your experience. That is kind of what I needed to hear! This is DD's first year at it and she is in 3rd but doing WWE2. She likes the narration part (although she gives mne 50 lines and we have to condense a bunch LOL)

[HopeFox]

I am not sure if this would work for your child, but if she is a visual learner, studying the sentence as others have suggested might really help. I consider myself to have some traits of a visual learner. I would often remember information in school by drawing on a memory of the appearance of the page that the information was on - I don't have a photographic memory, but it would help me to access the knowledge. Similarly, if I need to memorize something it helps *enormously* if I can read it rather than hear it. Now that my son and I are learning Mandarin chinese characters, this is a useful trait!