s/o easy readers- what's wrong with memorizing a list of sight words?

[Beth in SW WA]

 

That said both are excellent programs.

 

Heather

 

We have so many great choices, that is for sure! Thanks for your description of AAS.

 

Lovedtodeath, It sounds like you have a wonderful fit as well. :001_smile:

[Cindyz]

Well, you will be able to tell us quite a bit! You really may feel that AAS is enough after level 2 or 3. Level 1 really isn't giving you a full view of the program.

 

True, but I don't think we will need it along with PR and bits of SWR? ...and I'm starting to prefer PR/SWR over AAS at this very early stage in the game. Maybe it's just because they make my brain tick more than AAS, I don't know. I really like the markings and will still use the tiles and other methods along with writing. Although truthbetold, the tiles drive me batty and take much longer than writing because he tends to goof around with them. However, whenever he has a problem with a word, we go to the board, pull down each sound and magically he can spell the word. Also, it's as if he went through a spurt recently and is suddenly able to write a lot more without struggle/complaint, so an increase in writing isn't a problem right now. AAS was a good starter program for him and has made the transition to PR much easier.

[creekmom]

will be stopping on my way home tomorrow to get play sand and a rubbermaid box now :lol: That is a great idea and DS would LOVE it!

 

 

One more suggestion (my dc liked the sand, but it ended up getting all over the place). I put different colored paint in heavy duty, large ziplock bags for them to "write" on. I sealed it with extra tape to prevent spills. My dc loved writing letters/words on them, and there was no mess!

[Lovedtodeath]

True, but I don't think we will need it along with PR and bits of SWR? ...and I'm starting to prefer PR/SWR over AAS at this very early stage in the game. Maybe it's just because they make my brain tick more than AAS, I don't know. I really like the markings and will still use the tiles and other methods along with writing. Although truthbetold, the tiles drive me batty and take much longer than writing because he tends to goof around with them. However, whenever he has a problem with a word, we go to the board, pull down each sound and magically he can spell the word. Also, it's as if he went through a spurt recently and is suddenly able to write a lot more without struggle/complaint, so an increase in writing isn't a problem right now. AAS was a good starter program for him and has made the transition to PR much easier.

:iagree:Totally, completely, could have typed every word.

[Beth in SW WA]

True, but I don't think we will need it along with PR and bits of SWR? ...and I'm starting to prefer PR/SWR over AAS at this very early stage in the game.

 

Zenz, for you or anyone wanting to learn more about the Spalding method (even if you don't use SWR), here's an idea.

 

For $25, I suggest Wanda's new 4-hour dvd, Hidden Secrets To Language Success, to supplement/teach/explain SWR. Disc 1, she teaches students. Disc 2 is her advanced class. I have watched it about 6 times and learn something new each time. I'll watch it twice/year to keep current in the method. And I plan to take Wanda's advanced class every other summer as my dds advance in the program.

 

For kids who are gifted or just love LA's, SWR is a great fit. Mental gymnastics for the kid (and mommy) brain. :)

 

AND -- if you have hours & hours to spare (who does?), I suggest The History Of The English Language course by The Teaching Company. I watched it this summer and learned WHY we have such a unique language system here in modern America. Dr. Lerer is a fabulous teacher.

[Lovedtodeath]

Thanks Beth. I am drooling. LOL

[ElizabethB]

For $25, I suggest Wanda's new 4-hour dvd, Hidden Secrets To Language Success, to supplement/teach/explain SWR. Disc 1, she teaches students. Disc 2 is her advanced class. I have watched it about 6 times and learn something new each time.

 

AND -- if you have hours & hours to spare (who does?), I suggest The History Of The English Language course by The Teaching Company. I watched it this summer and learned WHY we have such a unique language system here in modern America. Dr. Lerer is a fabulous teacher.

 

Thanks, I will check those out! The first as a possible resource for the moms of my remedial students, the 2nd for me! I have studied several things along those lines, but am always looking to learn more.

[scrappyhappymama]

I've read this entire thread with great interest and hope you don't mind me asking a few questions as well.

 

I used A Beka's K4 and K5 phonics program with my first son and he took to it well and is now a strong reader. My second son is nearly finished with K4 and it's been a bit slower going with him. Now after reading this thread, I am wondering what system of phonics the A Beka program is based on? Are the "rules" I am teaching my boys sound? Is it based on Orton-Gillingham? I am not adverse to switching phonics programs if necessary. We started with A Beka in our first year homeschooling, but have ditched all of it except for the phonics/writing, mostly because we love the cursive first approach.

 

Also, what about Bob books? My new reader loves them, and I think he's sounding out most of the words phonetically, but recently I saw someone refer to Bob books as whole language and it made me wonder if I am missing something? :confused:

 

The other thing I hope to avoid is not giving my son a strong enough phonics foundation. My first son took off reading so quickly that we did not continue focusing on phonics after finishing A Beka's 1st grade level phonics and covering all the phonogram cards. Now I am noticing that even though his reading level is high, his pronunciation is not always correct and he sometimes struggles with spelling. We recently switched to Sequential Spelling and he's already making great strides in spelling. And I am planning to start MegaWords soon to bring the phonics rules back into focus. I'm not sure if these issues are related to deficiencies in the A Beka phonics or because we did not continue phonics after 1st or just normal.

 

Finally, another question specific to sight words. I am convinced that a list of sight words is a poor idea. However, what about words like 'the'? Is there any harm in teaching 'the' or other frequently encountered, but more challenging phonetically words as a sight word with an early reader? If I know the rule, I generally will say it, but what about if I don't know the phonetic rules for a particular word? Is it ok to tell him the word and move on if it is obvious that it is not a word he'll be able to sound out with his current phonics knowledge? I don't think I am wording my question well. I am asking specifically about young readers who have not yet learned a lot of the rules, but who are wanting to read aloud. As a practical matter, how should I handle words that are beyond their current phonics understanding or ones that look like sight words to me?

 

Thanks!

[Dinsfamily]

Zenz, for you or anyone wanting to learn more about the Spalding method (even if you don't use SWR), here's an idea.

 

For $25, I suggest Wanda's new 4-hour dvd, Hidden Secrets To Language Success, to supplement/teach/explain SWR. Disc 1, she teaches students. Disc 2 is her advanced class. I have watched it about 6 times and learn something new each time. I'll watch it twice/year to keep current in the method. And I plan to take Wanda's advanced class every other summer as my dds advance in the program.

 

For kids who are gifted or just love LA's, SWR is a great fit. Mental gymnastics for the kid (and mommy) brain. :)

 

AND -- if you have hours & hours to spare (who does?), I suggest The History Of The English Language course by The Teaching Company. I watched it this summer and learned WHY we have such a unique language system here in modern America. Dr. Lerer is a fabulous teacher.

 

I didn't realize that it included her advanced class!! I'm buying it ASAP! Thanks for the info Beth.

[angela in ohio]

AND -- if you have hours & hours to spare (who does?), I suggest The History Of The English Language course by The Teaching Company. I watched it this summer and learned WHY we have such a unique language system here in modern America. Dr. Lerer is a fabulous teacher.

 

I have watched this twice now. It is so incredibly helpful. I love being able to throw out little language facts to help clarify things for dc. :001_smile:

[Lovedtodeath]

 

I've read this entire thread with great interest and hope you don't mind me asking a few questions as well.

It sounds to me like you have nothing to worry about.:grouphug: Abeka and Megawords are both really good phonics-based programs. :)

[Aoife]

OK I have another question for you all :tongue_smilie:

 

So if we go the route of AAS 1-3 now and then decide to go from there into PR level 2 would we have any holes or anything? Also can you do PR without the grammar and composition or would that make it not worth it? We are MCT people here so we are covered as far as other LA goes. :D I sat yesterday during the littles nap time and went through the PR website, watched the sample video (with my mom who is a 2nd grade teacher) and we really like what we saw and how things were put forth.

 

Now I know why I avoided looking at it for so long cause I had a feeling I would like it and it has a pretty hefty price tag :lol: But it would even out if I used it for 4 kids right :tongue_smilie:

[Dinsfamily]

 

Also, what about Bob books? My new reader loves them, and I think he's sounding out most of the words phonetically, but recently I saw someone refer to Bob books as whole language and it made me wonder if I am missing something? :confused:

 

Finally, another question specific to sight words. I am convinced that a list of sight words is a poor idea. However, what about words like 'the'? Is there any harm in teaching 'the' or other frequently encountered, but more challenging phonetically words as a sight word with an early reader? If I know the rule, I generally will say it, but what about if I don't know the phonetic rules for a particular word? Is it ok to tell him the word and move on if it is obvious that it is not a word he'll be able to sound out with his current phonics knowledge? I don't think I am wording my question well. I am asking specifically about young readers who have not yet learned a lot of the rules, but who are wanting to read aloud. As a practical matter, how should I handle words that are beyond their current phonics understanding or ones that look like sight words to me?

 

Thanks!

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with Bob books. My middle ds loves them. The only thing I do different is explain the 'sight words' like 'the' and 'was' phonetically. There aren't that many words like that in Bob books anyway. We don't teach 'the' as a sight word because it's phonetically regular. We stay away from harder books until they're ready for them. Ds6 didn't read any books until he was almost reading fluently...but he didn't want anything to do with phonetic readers. Now, he loves to read real books. Ds4 went through all of the Bob books and Fun Tales several times when he was at that level.

 

I'd spend some time learning the rules yourself. ElizabethB's site would be good for that or you could pick up a copy of WRTR from the library or ABC's and All Their Tricks. I can't believe how much I've learned since starting SWR!

[Lovedtodeath]

OK I have another question for you all :tongue_smilie:

 

So if we go the route of AAS 1-3 now and then decide to go from there into PR level 2 would we have any holes or anything? Also can you do PR without the grammar and composition or would that make it not worth it? We are MCT people here so we are covered as far as other LA goes. :D I sat yesterday during the littles nap time and went through the PR website, watched the sample video (with my mom who is a 2nd grade teacher) and we really like what we saw and how things were put forth.

 

Now I know why I avoided looking at it for so long cause I had a feeling I would like it and it has a pretty hefty price tag :lol: But it would even out if I used it for 4 kids right :tongue_smilie:

Well, since you get etymology with PR the price may be worth it without the grammar and composition... but you also may find that MCT isn't enough, or that you decide to use PR instead. (I didn't really say it, don't attack me!) Phonics Road also teaches you. I didn't appreciate the DVD's at first, but I love the way this stuff is getting into my brain and coming naturally when it comes time for teaching.

 

Phonics Road 1 hits the rules for adding suffixes really hard at the end of the course. I don't know if AAS 3 covers that, but I am pretty sure the rest is covered... someone who has used AAS 3 will need to answer.

 

Honestly, my first thought was for you to use Megawords, then I also think you could use the rules from WRTR or SWR in conjunction with How to Teach Spelling, but you might find PR worth it due to the above factors.

 

I think you can also order something like an accelerated version where you get only the Teacher's Manual and save money on the literature study and student books.

Edited August 30, 2010 by Lovedtodeath

[MerryAtHope]

 

Phonics Road 1 hits the rules for adding suffixes really hard at the end of the course. I don't know if AAS 3 covers that, but I am pretty sure the rest is covered... someone who has used AAS 3 will need to answer.

 

 

 

Yes, you'll get lots of work on how to add suffixes in AAS 3 :001_smile:.

[johnandtinagilbert]

OK I have another question for you all :tongue_smilie:

 

So if we go the route of AAS 1-3 now and then decide to go from there into PR level 2 would we have any holes or anything? Also can you do PR without the grammar and composition or would that make it not worth it? We are MCT people here so we are covered as far as other LA goes. :D I sat yesterday during the littles nap time and went through the PR website, watched the sample video (with my mom who is a 2nd grade teacher) and we really like what we saw and how things were put forth.

 

Now I know why I avoided looking at it for so long cause I had a feeling I would like it and it has a pretty hefty price tag :lol: But it would even out if I used it for 4 kids right :tongue_smilie:

The grammar and lit is SO GOOD...why would you NOT want to use them...Really. The grammar is so effective and the lit studies just keep getting better and better...I'm expecting PR4 in the mail this week!

 

The one thing you'd be without if you didn't order PR1 are Rule Tunes, but I'd bet somebody might be willing to help you out with that. If I remember correctly, Carmen may have said PR1 is pretty equivalent to AAS 1-3...is that right, Carmen?

[Lovedtodeath]

The grammar and lit is SO GOOD...why would you NOT want to use them...Really. The grammar is so effective and the lit studies just keep getting better and better...I'm expecting PR4 in the mail this week!

 

The one thing you'd be without if you didn't order PR1 are Rule Tunes, but I'd bet somebody might be willing to help you out with that. If I remember correctly, Carmen may have said PR1 is pretty equivalent to AAS 1-3...is that right, Carmen?

Actually, PR 2 has a list of all of the rule tunes and one DVD lesson with a sing along for all of them. Yes, IMO AAS 1-3 is roughly equivalent to PR 1, it is just taught in a different order and in a different way (I despise flash cards. ;)) I have not used AAS 3 though, just AAS 1 and parts of AAS 2. AAS covers more on segmenting and syllabication. HTH!

[siloam]

 

BTW I do have Barton level 1. I haven't used it I am getting ready to and I haven't watched the videos yet, so I might have missed something. There are two things that I don't care for in it. First they use visualizing of things to represent sounds like apples for short a (no pictures in print, just have the child see it in their mind). I am with Wanda on that one, I don't care for it. Second is they don't seem to follow all the work up with writing. I am going to have my ds visualize the letter not an apple and I will have him also writing everything he builds with tiles.

 

Heather

 

I went in and watched the videos for Barton and there is actually a lot less picture work than I first thought.

 

With consonants they use it as references only. So if a child can't remember that l says /l/ you have them take a sheet of paper, write l on it and then a picture of something that starts with /l/. That way instead of the child having to say, "I can't remember" and go through the embarrassment that comes along with that (huge deal with the sort of students who do Barton because it is almost always a remedial situation where the child already feels stupid, embarrassed is sensitive). Instead the child simply glances over at their own reference sheet and finds the right sound by looking at the picture and pulling off the first sound. That is a lot different than the use of pictures to drill with that I see in some programs.

 

With vowels they do tell a story and have the child visualize it at first, but after the initial time they simply tap the syllables of the "key" word and emphasize the vowel sound by saying it repeatedly after saying the key word once. It is more of a touch and sound exercise than a visual exercise. The vowel work is done almost anytime they change vowels, especially if the child struggles with the vowel sounds. Thus there can be quite a bit of it.

 

On the writing thing I am still on the fence. Barton does separate reading instruction from spelling. For all the reading work their is no physical writing and for all the spelling work their is physical writing. That makes sense. Though Spalding and the off shoots will have more writing all around. Given I plan to add Seeing Stars work to help see words in the mind I will probably call that good enough.

 

Heather

[Guest aquiverfull]

Given LD students are sensitive to begin with, they are often put into situations where they would rather be wrong than be caught singing the song under their breath.

 

Heather

 

Oh Heather, I think you know my daughter.

 

:iagree:I was going to say the exact same thing about my dd. I have suspected dyslexia, after reading more of Heather's responses, I am almost sure my dd is dyslexic.

[bbrandonsmom]

Actually, PR 2 has a list of all of the rule tunes and one DVD lesson with a sing along for all of them. Yes, IMO AAS 1-3 is roughly equivalent to PR 1, it is just taught in a different order and in a different way (I despise flash cards. ;)) I have not used AAS 3 though, just AAS 1 and parts of AAS 2. AAS covers more on segmenting and syllabication. HTH!

 

 

Wait, so PR2 has All the rule tunes for both level 1 and level 2?

You can switch from a spelling/phonics program like AAS or Phonics Pathways and pick up PR2, but have all the tunes?

I have a chance to purchase used PR1 & PR2 (both missing some stuff), but if PR2 has all the rule tunes, then.....We are almost half way through PP and ds can read and spell all the words. I really like PP, but really like PR.

[calandalsmom]

I don't think AAS really has any flash cards, per se. At least we do not use them that way at all.

[Lovedtodeath]

I don't think AAS really has any flash cards, per se. At least we do not use them that way at all.

The phonograms are learned and reviewed as flash cards, and the words are on flashcards to shuffle around for review. I just didn't like having to figure out review myself, or use flashcards for it. I only used level one in entirety though, so review is likely more built in as you go up in levels (through dictation, etc.)

 

In PR everything is reviewed as you spell a variety of words and I don't have to do flashcards hardly at all, though technically they tell you to review the flashcards. We just don't feel a need to, but we did with AAS. Not using them is my preference. :D

[Leonana]

I taught my dd to read using a combination of phonics and sight words. If I had used phonics only, I don't think she would have learned to read, or at the very least enjoyed it.

 

I believe she is one of those 30-40% that pick up the patterns naturally. What I haven't seen addressed is that there are kids who do not do well with phonics only, and my dd was one of them. I think she is a whole to parts learner, and Reading Reflex, combined with the Pathway Readers, worked well with her.

 

She is 9, but reads at a middle school level, perhaps even high school. She can read new words, even difficult ones. I asked her how she learned them, and she said closed captioning. I have a hearing problem, and she watches all of her shows with cc. I had to admit, it made me laugh.

[Cindyz]

The phonograms are learned and reviewed as flash cards, and the words are on flashcards to shuffle around for review. I just didn't like having to figure out review myself, or use flashcards for it. I only used level one in entirety though, so review is likely more built in as you go up in levels (through dictation, etc.)

 

In PR everything is reviewed as you spell a variety of words and I don't have to do flashcards hardly at all, though technically they tell you to review the flashcards. We just don't feel a need to, but we did with AAS. Not using them is my preference. :D

 

Yes, I love the fact that everything is taught quick and early with PR and then reinforced through constant use. I think the markings really help to cement the phonograms and rules in contrast to flash cards which may be forgotten because they aren't in a real context (words - spelling/reading). The markings really make them think over and over about the sounds and the phonograms. I think PR/SWR methods are good for kids who like logic and puzzles. My son loves spelling, but he also loved AAS too.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Cindyz

[johnandtinagilbert]

I taught my dd to read using a combination of phonics and sight words. If I had used phonics only, I don't think she would have learned to read, or at the very least enjoyed it.

 

I believe she is one of those 30-40% that pick up the patterns naturally. What I haven't seen addressed is that there are kids who do not do well with phonics only, and my dd was one of them. I think she is a whole to parts learner, and Reading Reflex, combined with the Pathway Readers, worked well with her.

 

She is 9, but reads at a middle school level, perhaps even high school. She can read new words, even difficult ones. I asked her how she learned them, and she said closed captioning. I have a hearing problem, and she watches all of her shows with cc. I had to admit, it made me laugh.

My husband needs CC also and I have found myself reading more than listening. My dc always point out when a gobbly-gook work comes up, so I guess they are reading too!

 

Yes, I love the fact that everything is taught quick and early with PR and then reinforced through constant use. I think the markings really help to cement the phonograms and rules in contrast to flash cards which may be forgotten because they aren't in a real context (words - spelling/reading). The markings really make them think over and over about the sounds and the phonograms. I think PR/SWR methods are good for kids who like logic and puzzles. My son loves spelling, but he also loved AAS too.

I wondered when I started PR how dc would remember so much, so fast, but by about 3 weeks, they were flying through the markings and actually sounding out to spell and read. The techniques transfer between the 2 areas so nicely.

 

The hardest dc was my bonus student. He just wants so badly to guess words. He's getting better, but man oh man! What a difference.

[calandalsmom]

The phonograms are learned and reviewed as flash cards, and the words are on flashcards to shuffle around for review. I just didn't like having to figure out review myself, or use flashcards for it. I only used level one in entirety though, so review is likely more built in as you go up in levels (through dictation, etc.)

 

In PR everything is reviewed as you spell a variety of words and I don't have to do flashcards hardly at all, though technically they tell you to review the flashcards. We just don't feel a need to, but we did with AAS. Not using them is my preference. :D

 

 

Not really accurate IMO.

 

The children do not use the flash cards. They are cues for the teacher. We use them to aid in dictation, not to drill the kids with the see and say method which flashcards typically use.

[Lovedtodeath]

Not really accurate IMO.

 

The children do not use the flash cards. They are cues for the teacher. We use them to aid in dictation, not to drill the kids with the see and say method which flashcards typically use.

It is good that you clarified. Let me add some more... The phonogram cards are drilled as a typical flash card. Phonics Road has these as well, but because we drill every sound of a phonogram in the words we spell/analyze I do not use them as often.

 

AAS also has a traditional drill type flash card for spelling rules, called "key cards". Phonics Road uses "rule tunes" and again, we sing them with each word that they apply to, so we don't typically review those in any other way. We felt a need to drill those each day with AAS.

 

AAS also has word cards and sound cards that the teacher uses for dictation and keeping track of progress/review. PR does not have this. The review is scheduled and spelled out for the teacher.

 

There we go, I hope it is all clear now.

[calandalsmom]

Im working with a 13 yr old boy. I am sure he'd prefer dictation and chanting the cards (which we do, no flashing at all) to singing a tune. Now, I suspect my 5 yr old would enjoy the tunes very much. But since she is the last in the line she'll have to suffer thru AAS since I own it. LOL

[Guest janainaz]

I believe in phonics for teaching reading. Every child I *personally* know (at least 4 of them) that had learned sight reading, struggled terribly with spelling. My nieces were horrible spellers and so was my adopted SIL. To each his own, but I would never teach my child sight reading.

 

We used The Ordinary Parents Guide to Teaching Reading and they introduce sight words as they go. They introduce those words as the exception, not the rule, and it's done one word at a time. It's much easier to teach phonics, since MOST words follow the rules. It's easier to address the ones that don't a little bit at a time.