s/o on merit aid, cost of private tuition, diminishing returns, etc. treading lightly

[Hoggirl]

So, let's say hypothetically your dc was accepted into a dandy, private school and you had the ability to pay 100% of tuition, fees, etc. Would it be "foolish" to do so??

 

I keep reading these threads, and I get the sense that just "getting in" isn't "good enough." I sense this from friends who have their children in public school as well. If one doesn't get some huge merit aid package, it's like it doesn't count. Is there something "wrong" with being accepted to a good school and paying 100% if you can afford it? This has really been bothering me for some reason.

 

We have some friends whose son (public school) recently earned a 32 on his ACT. I asked her if he was "done" - meaning not going to take it again. Her response was, "Oh, no. He has to get a 33 or 34 to get a full ride, so he has to take it again." Now these people do have four children (although there is a large gap between #1 and #2). But, from all outward appearances they do quite well financially. Wine, dine, travel, etc. Now, they may be in debt up to their eyeballs for all I know, but there is part of me that feels like it is wrong for them to say that a 32 on the ACT isn't good enough.

 

I know this is kind of rambly and addresses more than one issue, but I just wanted to throw it out for discussion. No tomatoes, please.

[creekland]

So, let's say hypothetically your dc was accepted into a dandy, private school and you had the ability to pay 100% of tuition, fees, etc. Would it be "foolish" to do so??

 

... Is there something "wrong" with being accepted to a good school and paying 100% if you can afford it?

 

 

 

There's absolutely nothing at all wrong with it. I'm rather envious of those that can do so, but such is life.

 

That said, if we could afford it and any of my kiddos still got merit aid the money they save could go toward something else in the future. I wouldn't make them bust their behinds trying to do it though.

[KnitWit]

I see absolutely NOTHING wrong with having the ability to pay and doing so. My bf is in that situation with her third student!

 

I, otoh, am EXTREMELY grateful for my dd's aid package because we DON'T have it.

 

I don't think the financial aspect should be reflection on the student *at all*.

[KnitWit]

Agree with Creekland, if you have it, but they can *earn it*, then let them and you *save it for a rainy day*. :)

[Rebecca VA]

We pay 100% for our son's tuition. We're able to do that, and the college needs the money. We also donate financially as much as possible -- even to the point of sacrifice -- and I must admit I can't understand the well-off families who think it's wonderful to have someone else paying for their children's tuition.

[Miss Marple]

and I must admit I can't understand the well-off families who think it's wonderful to have someone else paying for their children's tuition.

 

Really?!? This reminds me of the time a lady told me that I shouldn't buy used books on the swap board because I could afford to pay full price!

 

It's always amazing to me to see how others interpret "well off". Usually it means that someone is doing better than they are. But it's all relative! You wouldn't believe how many people have made guesses about our income and been so wildly off that it's hysterically funny! Don't assume that "well off" folks aren't putting out $$$ in places you don't see (elderly parents, missionary support, etc.). Don't assume they aren't up to their eyeballs in debt, either! We live frugally but well - in part because of the wise financial decisions we have made.

 

IMO, it is a wise financial decision to take advantage of all the merit aid that is offered. Note: this is merit aid, not need-based aid. If my son scores are higher than your son's, why should I not accept the money offered? Does that make me selfish? As part of that percentage of citizens who pay the bulk of the income tax in this nation, I'm happy to get something in return - esp. since I can't reap benefits from my property taxes and education.

 

To the OP: I would never push my student to score above that which he is able. But if he is so borderline as to be able to reap a bit more merit aid with another shot at the test, why not do it? We did this with my oldest. He was borderline - 1 point would allow him to get an additional $2000 in aid. I told him he only needed to take the test once more to see if he could do it. He was fine with that. I didn't demand that he spend every waking minute studying to get the score. He couldn't do it. That was fine. His performance while in college has been so stellar that he has continued to receive merit based scholarships that have completely paid his tuition as well as room and board.

 

We have always told our sons that the money they save us on tuition is money that can be spent elsewhere on things they enjoy or support of other ministries.

[Rebecca VA]

If you're talking about public universities or large, established, well-endowed schools, I might agree with you. In this instance, I'm talking about a very small college that refuses to take federal aid. They need every dime they can get. We're glad to help them out, but we would hope that the parents of the students wouldn't think the money just fell out of the sky.

[Julie in MN]

I know this is kind of rambly and addresses more than one issue, but I just wanted to throw it out for discussion. No tomatoes, please.

 

Interesting thoughts. I haven't been in that situation, but after reading through the replies, I can see myself going either way.

 

On the side of accepting the aid and even working hard to get the aid, I would say that it is up to those administering the aid to decide what the qualifications are. I would assume that if the school doesn't put income restrictions on the aid, then they have thought through the issues and decided it was to their benefit to encourage high scoring students to attend their school, even if they have to "pay them" to attend.

 

On the side of not accepting the aid if you don't really need it, I thought the used books comparison was interesting. I tried to think through a comparison of the intentions and expectations of an author vs. a college. Both are at least in part interested in making a profit, or breaking even anyways. When would giving it away "free" benefit either one? For the college, the benefit of "free" might be to raise its reputation in the academic world and to attract high-level professors. So I thought possibly an author could benefit from a used book sale if the buyer of the used book benefited the author somehow, such as writing good reviews or deciding later to purchase new materials from the author or maybe recommending the book to other WTM users :)

 

But in both cases, a user who was really sure he really loved the product (whether college or book) might choose to give more support rather than less? That's where the voluntarily paying the whole way must come in?

 

Julie

[Hoggirl]

IMO, it is a wise financial decision to take advantage of all the merit aid that is offered. Note: this is merit aid, not need-based aid. If my son scores are higher than your son's, why should I not accept the money offered? Does that make me selfish? As part of that percentage of citizens who pay the bulk of the income tax in this nation, I'm happy to get something in return - esp. since I can't reap benefits from my property taxes and education.

 

I would take any and all merit aid that came our way. The thing that has been bothering me is that there seems to be no pride in just getting into these prestigious schools. Does that make sense?

Edited July 16, 2010 by Hoggirl
typo

[Miss Marple]

If you're talking about public universities or large, established, well-endowed schools, I might agree with you. In this instance, I'm talking about a very small college that refuses to take federal aid. They need every dime they can get. We're glad to help them out, but we would hope that the parents of the students wouldn't think the money just fell out of the sky.

 

I think I know the school you are referring to. And we're also considering that school for ds#2. I know that they offer both merit based and needs based aid. We will apply for the merit based aid because it is available. I have to trust that the school, itself, has evaluated its financial situation and is able to offer that merit aid without harming itself. I, personally, have never known anyone who received a merit scholarship who was not completely grateful for the help. In many cases, the merit scholarship is the deciding factor on whether a student can attend the college of his/her choice or not.

 

We would not be looking at this school for ds#2 if it weren't for the fact that ds#1 has been able to go to school so inexpensively (for us). Saving on one means we can spend more on another. And ds#1 is OK with that. He's where he wanted to be.

 

And while the school and alumni may be providing a portion of the costs for my son, I can assume that he, in turn, will contribute to the next group of students applying for merit aid. So by helping a student, the school/alumni in turn will receive continuous support (ideally).

[Luckymama]

Perhaps the people who can afford full-pay yet are hoping for merit aid are looking ahead to graduate or professional school. Paid assistantships in fields other than the sciences are incredibly competitive. Med school and law school costs are prohibitive. Parents might be wanting to "save" their money to help their kids after college graduation.

[Miss Marple]

I would take any and all merit aid that came our way. The thing that his been bothering me is that there seems to be no pride in just getting into these prestigious schools. Does that make sense?

 

Is it lack of pride or could it be that the student might not be able to attend (even if the family appears to be able to afford it) unless he gets a better scholarship? I know many upper income families who still look at the bottom dollar.

 

So even if a student were accepted to Harvard and the money was apparently available, many parents will opt for a "lesser" school with merit aid. In my circle of friends, I don't know of anyone who doesn't look at the bottom line cost when making the decision. The cost/benefit ratio is all important to those I know who are looking at colleges.

 

I enjoy reading the threads on the college board of where students have been accepted. I'm always amazed by those who apply to 8-10 prestigious schools and are accepted to them all! I think they do have pride with the acceptance, but usually we read that the scholarship package makes a big difference on where the student actually attends.

[MomsintheGarden]

I would take any and all merit aid that came our way. The thing that has been bothering me is that there seems to be no pride in just getting into these prestigious schools. Does that make sense?

 

We'd take any merit aid we could get, too. Our dd thinks she wants to go to medical school, for which the total cost of attendance is $60K/year. I can't imagine her going into that with undergraduate debt.

 

Does it seem to you that these folks would only be happy with the whole enchilada - prestigious school acceptance + full ride or generous merit aid? Do you think they only want bragging rights, or are they not able to pay?

 

This is a very interesting thread - thanks so much! I enjoy reading about all the viewpoints.

 

GardenMom

[TravelingChris]

According to all the financial aid calculators, we are supposed to be able to pay around 44K. Well, we know we can't afford that. We are probably a family that you think wines, dines, and travels. We do go out sometimes. We do travel sometimes. (I don't drink wine but that is beside the point). But I am not sure why you would think that a max. 3K vacation could make up the 30K we can't afford. Notice I didn't say we can't afford close to 15K. But there is a huge difference between 15K and 44K. WHy is the EFC so off? Because it doesn't count that my dh has only made this kind of money the last 1.5 years and with this higher salary came a move to a very expensive part of the country. Because we move frequently, we are getting ever closer to 50 and don't own our own house. We also have the very distinct possibility of a sudden forced retirement with no job in place. Then there is the fact that I have saved taxpayers thousands and thousands of dollars by becoming disabled before I had earned enough social security credits. That means we self finance my disability both now, when it doesn't cost that much, and in the future, when it is likely to cost much more as I need accomodations in housing, cars, etc. We have self-payed much more than half of my son's college education, will pay minimal for number two but may need to help with professional school, and are looking for some merit aid to lessen the burden of number 3. I don't see anything wrong with this. I do not feel guilty at all for getting any aid we get. We have devoted our lives to public service and we have nothing to be ashamed about.

[Hoggirl]

Does it seem to you that these folks would only be happy with the whole enchilada - prestigious school acceptance + full ride or generous merit aid? Do you think they only want bragging rights, or are they not able to pay?

 

This is a very interesting thread - thanks so much! I enjoy reading about all the viewpoints.

 

GardenMom

 

I have no idea as to what this particular family can afford. But, I think it is the idea that they want the bragging rights as you put it.

 

I hope I am not being misunderstood - I do not think it is wrong to pursue and accept as much merit aid as one can get! I know NOTHING about FAFSA and the EFC calculation. I guess part of it is just a gamble b/c one cannot know ahead of time if or how much merit aid a student can get.

 

With that in mind, if you knew your child could get accepted to a school, but you were also pretty sure that he/she would NOT earn enough merit aid to be able to get a full ride and you were either not willing or not able to pay the difference, would you let the child apply in the first place???

 

My dh went to a public university. His parents told him that he could attend there and they would pay for all of it, and he would come out debt-free. They also told him if he wanted to pursue fancier schools he could, but that he would have to figure out how he was going to cover the difference between the cost of the public uni and the cost of a private school. He chose the public uni.

 

Oh, dear. I am rambling again. :o

[MomsintheGarden]

With that in mind, if you knew your child could get accepted to a school, but you were also pretty sure that he/she would NOT earn enough merit aid to be able to get a full ride and you were either not willing or not able to pay the difference, would you let the child apply in the first place???

 

Oh, dear. I am rambling again. :o

 

No, you're not rambling at all! This is a huge issue for a lot of people, and it is valuable to discuss it.

 

In answer to your question - no, we would not have our dc apply to an expensive school where we figured they would not get enough aid to make it within our designated price range. You can kind of figure out what it would be by filling out the FAFSA early (we didn't, but that's something we learned), and by poking around the school's websites.

 

Applying to schools costs money, and it takes time. Unbelievable amounts of time, because to get merit packages there are often extra hoops to jump through: honors applications (our dd was required to write a 5-page essay and get three recommendations, along with the NM app. with it's own essay + rec.), emails, phone calls, visits, and waiting angst. I was exhausted helping her do all of this, and she did most of it! I wouldn't want to go through all of that with 10 schools; we wanted to get school done in her senior year, too.

 

OTOH, sometimes you don't know what the school will contribute. You can get a ballpark figure from researching, but if it seems possible, perhaps it's best to apply and see. Ds goes to a good VA state school, but dh remarked once that if he had applied and gotten into MIT for a cost (to us) of $20K total a year, maybe we would have sent him there. His school costs us about $12K total a year (he has a couple of modest scholarships). That doesn't sound like much compared to others, we save for it and scrape the bottom of the barrel when it's time to pay!

 

And one more thing. This sounds rotten, but it's true. Some schools (not all) use ability to pay as an admissions factor, especially from the wait list. Does someone have a link to the article about this that was posted here a few months ago? They will give student X more aid than student Y because they want student X more. If the school leaves a $ gap, it can mean that they don't want you as much as others.

 

Now I'm really rambling. I must go finish my pickles. We have sooo many cucumbers!

GardenMom

[FaithManor]

DD's top choice school, which she got into, was $32,000.00 per year. She received a half scholarship on tuition (this is very common that there is no scholarship money for room and board) so with room and board, our totals were still $21,000.00 because her scholarship was only based on the $26,000.00 for tuition. Though we lead a comfortable lifestyle at least for our neighborhood, we did not have this in any immediate savings.

 

DH had it in his Roth and there is a maximum that he can withdraw from his 401k but we can not get it out of his Roth without a huge tax penalty for educational expenses. As for the 401k, if he lost his job, according to the company rules, he'd only have 60 days to get it paid back or pay a 40% tax penalty. So the only other option was to pay $1750.00 per month to the college or to get a second mortgage. We had to weigh this out....if we do this for dd, can we do this also for the other four children? How high is the payment when tuition just keeps going up year after year?

 

Though maybe with an awful lot of budget tweaking and sacrifices, we could have possibly made the payment, absolutely the second mortgage was out of question because the economy has tanked in Michigan and the real estate market is less than zero...so NO ONE gets an equity loan for any reason around here...the banks won't touch it with a ten foot pole. Additionally, we want to be out of debt in five years because DH's job is slowly killing him and he would like to be able to take a pay-cut in order to work for a smaller organization. Paying for her college at the private school would have required dh to continue in this horrible job for many years longer, delayed any hope of his retiring, kept us in debt, and there was a strong chance that we wouldn't be able to do the same for her younger siblings. Plus, if dh ever became unemployed, and there is no such thing as job security in Michigan, then she would have had to drop out of school. The policy, if we went on the payment plan, was that any late payment caused the student to have three days to get off campus and out of class!

 

I guess that I wouldn't just assume that the couple in your post could choose to pay for it. Most Middle Class people do not have in immediate, easy to access savings, $100,000.00 or more for four years of private school and especially when one would have to consider doing that more than once over. For four children, with rising tuition costs, this could easily amount to a half million dollars or more by the time the youngest graduated. Student loan amounts have not kept pace with tuition increases so the maximum that most kids can borrow, is not enough to cover a private school.

 

Faith

[Jane in NC]

 

DH had it in his Roth and there is a maximum that he can withdraw from his 401k but we can not get it out of his Roth without a huge tax penalty for educational expenses.

 

Maybe someone with more accounting savvy than I will chime in but it is my understanding that one can withdraw Roth contributions (not distributions) without penalty since one has already paid tax on the contributions. (Obviously this is not the case for a traditional IRA.) Further, it is also my understanding that "qualified higher education expenses" may be paid from distributions without penalty.

 

I have thought that Roths were a good way to save for higher education expenses in that FAFSA does not consider these assets, although the Profile does. Further, if a student decides to drop out of college, his parents maintain these funds in their retirement account.

 

Perhaps someone with more knowledge will chime in.

[Miss Marple]

With that in mind, if you knew your child could get accepted to a school, but you were also pretty sure that he/she would NOT earn enough merit aid to be able to get a full ride and you were either not willing or not able to pay the difference, would you let the child apply in the first place???

 

No, if we couldn't afford it, I wouldn't have him apply. If he were to be accepted to a prestigious school that we could not afford, I would feel pressured to spend more than I might reasonably spend otherwise. That could impact the educational future of my other kids.

 

The sheer workload of making application to a college causes us to limit selection to those we can see our sons attending. Others may find it fulfilling to know that their student *could* attend a prestigious college but they choose not to attend due to finances. That's isn't a big issue with me. Maybe validation is a bit of the motivation?

[creekland]

 

With that in mind, if you knew your child could get accepted to a school, but you were also pretty sure that he/she would NOT earn enough merit aid to be able to get a full ride and you were either not willing or not able to pay the difference, would you let the child apply in the first place???

 

 

No. We cut one school from oldest's list and will easily cut several from middle's list due to affordability mainly because of what was stated before. Each application costs time and money. Besides the application fee and various postages for anything additional even if one applies online, there are test scores to be sent, interviews to go to (usually), and scholarship competitions (sometimes). With time, there are essays (usually) and recommendation letters needed as well as the application itself. If trying for scholarships or honors college level, there's all that too.

 

My oldest considered several, we visited a few, he applied to three. I've no regrets.

 

My middle son is considering many, we will try to visit several (current economics might not help with this), I'm not sure how many he will apply to, but I expect the number to be between 3 and 6. It definitely won't be more than 6. I guess my ideal would be 3 or 4, but for him, money is likely to be a big factor, so a couple more might give us more options. Unless our economy vastly improves over the coming year, money is going to be a significant factor. I'm really hoping he gets NMF as that will increase his options a bit. I'm praying for a good testing day for him this coming October.

 

If money were no object, I'd still tell him to apply to no more than 6. He ought to have favorites with up to 6 options, one being a safety that he absolutely knew he would get accepted to and would be happy attending even if he got rejected from whatever dream schools he goes after. And, I'd still prefer just 3 or 4 for the ease of it all.

[Rebecca VA]

CynthiaOK, I should never have written my snarky post, and I wish I could get rid of it. We're glad to help out the college in any way we can. My post was meant to point out the fact that someone has to pay the costs of those scholarships, and colleges lean heavily on donors to do that. Often the donors are simply middle-class people who may not be any richer than the recipients' families. But I agree that providing scholarships allows colleges to woo the very best students, and that's what we want to happen. My apologies for offending you or anyone else.

[Miss Marple]

CynthiaOK, I should never have written my snarky post, and I wish I could get rid of it. We're glad to help out the college in any way we can. My post was meant to point out the fact that someone has to pay the costs of those scholarships, and colleges lean heavily on donors to do that. Often the donors are simply middle-class people who may not be any richer than the recipients' families. But I agree that providing scholarships allows colleges to woo the very best students, and that's what we want to happen. My apologies for offending you or anyone else.

 

 

Aw, thanks. :grouphug: I'm not offended, but I realize I'm obviously looking at the situation from a different perspective. We've felt so blessed with our dss performance and the realization that they will receive some merit aid - maybe a lot! And that allows us to, in turn, bless other ministries because we have extra $$ on hand.

 

I love free enterprise. I'm a firm believer that if the government takes less from its people, they will in turn spend more and grow the economy. On a smaller scale, that's how our family works...what we save in one area can be used in another. And you're supporting a ministry, too, by contributing to the school. I have been so impressed with Hillsdale's ability to maintain its position of no federal funding. That makes me want to support it all the more :001_smile:

[Quiver0f10]

 

With that in mind, if you knew your child could get accepted to a school, but you were also pretty sure that he/she would NOT earn enough merit aid to be able to get a full ride and you were either not willing or not able to pay the difference, would you let the child apply in the first place???

 

My son is going to need merit aid and/or scholarship to attend his # 1 choice. If he doesn't get the aid he won’t be able to go. We just don't have the money. However, he needs to apply to see if he will receive aid and how much aid that would be. He won’t know until after applying.

[mcconnellboys]

There's nothing wrong with it, but if you can get a scholarship, why not bank your personal money to help get you started in life after graduation?

 

My mother, for some reason that is still unfathomable to me, acted as if getting a scholarship was "taking charity" and "we didn't need it". I could still kick her because with my grades and ACT scores at that time, I could have gotten a free ride at numerous GOOD schools (way better than the state U she insisted on as my only choice of schools).

 

When I went to college, a 32 could get you a full ride. Today, with all the prep classes and way too many perfect scores each year, many kids feel that they have to try to get a perfect score in order to be in the running for a full ride (and they still need GPA's greater than a 4, leadership, etc. in many cases). So the game has changed.

 

Also, a "good" liberal arts college now can easily run you $250,000 - $300,000 for just 4 years (and many don't graduate in 4 years any more). That's a house. A nice house, in many markets. Why saddle your child with that kind of debt? Unless they're going to be a doctor, it will be difficult for you/them to pay that off.... And if you have, say, 4 children to educate, you're looking at a small fortune. Unless the education bubble does bust pretty soon, that is.....

[TravelingChris]

With my son, as he was our first, we made no stipulations on where he could apply based on what we thought we would get. We hadn't done the FAFSA or Profile yet and we had no idea what our EFC would be. All the schools he was admitted to offered financial aid or merit aid and we strongly recommended he accept the school that offered the best aid. (He was down to one school that was offering 1/2 tuition and another offering the current equivalent of 1/2 tuition). We explained that when tuition rose, and it could rise a lot, the second school would progressively become more expensive and we couldn't pay more.

 

With our older daughter, she should only apply to schools that accept the GI Bill and either that pays for the school outright or the Yellow Ribbon program or merit awards pay the rest. We are only paying very minimal amounts for her college education- things like some money to pay the difference of a single room or if her room and board aren't completely covered by the housing allowance she gets (the same as a married Staff Sgt living in the area of the school) or if her books are particularly expensive (she gets a 1000 allowance for books). We also intend to pay any extra we need for things like study abroad.

[Catherine]

that middle class parents have saved for their kids education. We have been very lucky to be able to do that, but in fact many middle class families with good incomes save $0. One of my good friends sent her son to state U, over his strong objections, because they could not begin to afford the family contribution that his top choice, Carnegie-Mellon, expected. Those must be painful decisions. To be honest, I find it hard sometimes to tell my kids that we cannot do X or Y because we can't afford it. What I mean of course is that we've chosen to spend our money on other things (their educations!!) so buying Wiis and trips to Disney may not make it into the budget as often as they'd like, if at all.

[Mary in GA]

I posted in imeverywoman's thread below, and I think I sounded judgmental. I am definitely not against folks spending their money on a private school tuition if that is what they believe is best. I do understand that many students do not pay the full price tag to attend these schools and have often proven themselves to obtain large merit scholarships.

 

But for those who are paying these really high tuition costs, even if it is within family budget, my personal view is that for many of these jobs there will be equally qualified candidates from "cheaper" schools. To me it's the same as spending $125k on a kitchen renovation when houses in your neighborhood go for $150k.

 

I would not forbid my dc to apply to a school with a price tag beyond our reach, but it would be clear that dc would have to come up with how to pay for it if accepted and excessive debt is no option. Dc would have to cough up the app fee too! My $.02.

 

Mary