s/o horse riding - check out this video

[hornblower]

OMG - this is so amazing. Made me choke up to see it:

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/StacyLWestfall#p/a/u/0/TKK7AXLOUNo

[Nakia]

I have seen that so many times, and it NEVER gets old. So beautiful!

[Liz CA]

Some amazing riding and the song...Wow!

[katemary63]

I have seen that so many times, and it NEVER gets old. So beautiful!

 

:iagree:She lives my fantasy life! I love Stacy Westfall

[Nakia]

:iagree:She lives my fantasy life! I love Stacy Westfall

 

My oldest wants to be like Stacy Westfall when she grows up. Her dream is to train and ride horses. :001_smile:

[hornblower]

the only problem for my dd with these videos is that it means she will no longer go to a traditional riding school. She wants to find someone who uses positive rewards training, low compulsion, natural etc etc. There is one guy locally who trains & jumps without a bridle & bit (but wears a saddle) but he's very expensive & I'm not sure he's entirely what she's looking for anyway.

 

All the regular riding places it seems hit & miss whether you get someone 'good' or someone who will whip the heck out of a horse for refusing a jump.

[skywards]

the only problem for my dd with these videos is that it means she will no longer go to a traditional riding school. She wants to find someone who uses positive rewards training, low compulsion, natural etc etc. There is one guy locally who trains & jumps without a bridle & bit (but wears a saddle) but he's very expensive & I'm not sure he's entirely what she's looking for anyway.

 

All the regular riding places it seems hit & miss whether you get someone 'good' or someone who will whip the heck out of a horse for refusing a jump.

 

Your daughter can learn to ride at a regular school just as well as she can from someone like that. I grew up showing HJ and now I deal with 'dangerous' race horses. Its not in the method you subscribe to, its how you use your weight, posture, and how well you can read their body language. Just please don't let her buy into any of the 'natural' programs where for only $$$$$$, you too can ride/train like a pro! I've seen a lot of people get hurt that way. Good luck finding someone!

[Remudamom]

the only problem for my dd with these videos is that it means she will no longer go to a traditional riding school. She wants to find someone who uses positive rewards training, low compulsion, natural etc etc. There is one guy locally who trains & jumps without a bridle & bit (but wears a saddle) but he's very expensive & I'm not sure he's entirely what she's looking for anyway.

 

All the regular riding places it seems hit & miss whether you get someone 'good' or someone who will whip the heck out of a horse for refusing a jump.

 

 

Just please, please, keep your dd away from the Parellis. They are natural gone reeeaal bad.

[Nakia]

Just please, please, keep your dd away from the Parellis. They are natural gone reeeaal bad.

 

Can you elaborate on that? Do you mean the Parellis themselves or the Parelli method or "natural horsemanship"? I'm curious because my dd's instructor uses natural horsemanship, and my dd has watched some Parelli videos.

 

You can pm me if you want.

[Caitilin]

I got chills watching that, and I am not even a horse-y girl. It was beautiful :)

[skywards]

Just please, please, keep your dd away from the Parellis. They are natural gone reeeaal bad.

 

Is there an "I agree x5000000000000000000" smiley? :tongue_smilie:

[skywards]

Can you elaborate on that? Do you mean the Parellis themselves or the Parelli method or "natural horsemanship"? I'm curious because my dd's instructor uses natural horsemanship, and my dd has watched some Parelli videos. You can pm me if you want.

 

They market themselves to young people and new horse owners under the guise of "natural" horsemanship, encourage beginners to do some swirly rope tricks to tame the wild beasts they have no business handling yet in the first place, and charge you an arm and a leg in the process. If you need further clarification, I'd be more than happy to pm you and so as not to hijack :001_smile:.

[Nakia]

They market themselves to young people and new horse owners under the guise of "natural" horsemanship, encourage beginners to do some swirly rope tricks to tame the wild beasts they have no business handling yet in the first place, and charge you an arm and a leg in the process. If you need further clarification, I'd be more than happy to pm you and so as not to hijack :001_smile:.

 

Oh ok, I see. So you are talking about the Parellis themselves? We all love love love our dd's instructor. She is very into natural horse training, and she is so amazing. I do know she uses some Parelli-type methods, but nothing at all like what you described.

[skywards]

Oh ok, I see. So you are talking about the Parellis themselves? We all love love love our dd's instructor. She is very into natural horse training, and she is so amazing. I do know she uses some Parelli-type methods, but nothing at all like what you described.

 

Yes, that and a lot of the people read into it too much and become nuts about it and ruin their horses. I'm sure there are plenty who are wonderful, I just haven't yet met one. It is very, VERY difficult to 'reprogram' a parelli 'trained' horse. They are essentially taught things in a very bass ackwards way that really doesn't make sense to most horse people and are allowed to behave dangerously. That and the recent videos that keep emerging of the parellis abusing horses at clinics :glare:.

[hornblower]

For my dd, she will not tolerate a stable where horses are hurt or forced. We use clicker training on our dogs & we're heavily in the +R camp of behaviour modification.

Really, it's not so much about saddle or bit as the orse & how they're broke & how they're treated after.

[Cindyg]

Just please, please, keep your dd away from the Parellis. They are natural gone reeeaal bad.

 

Hey now! I thought we agreed to disagree on this!

 

LOL.

 

Cindy

PNH L2 graduate, from back when that meant something.

[Denisemomof4]

SO beautiful!!!!!

[Cindyg]

For my dd, she will not tolerate a stable where horses are hurt or forced. We use clicker training on our dogs & we're heavily in the +R camp of behaviour modification.

Really, it's not so much about saddle or bit as the orse & how they're broke & how they're treated after.

 

I am seriously into clicker training my horse. It's so much fun! We've been at it for more than ten years, and it has been a godsend.

[katemary63]

Your daughter can learn to ride at a regular school just as well as she can from someone like that. I grew up showing HJ and now I deal with 'dangerous' race horses. Its not in the method you subscribe to, its how you use your weight, posture, and how well you can read their body language. Just please don't let her buy into any of the 'natural' programs where for only $$$$$$, you too can ride/train like a pro! I've seen a lot of people get hurt that way. Good luck finding someone!

 

:iagree: I agree with this.

[hornblower]

PNH L2 graduate, from back when that meant something.

 

Does it no longer mean something? I'm just curious. All I know about horses will fit on a postage stamp but I have heard of Parelli. And I thought it was good.

 

Cool that you clicker with your horse! How do you reward? That's another thing I've always been curious about - what do you do when you're riding?

 

 

I'm wondering if some of the criticism about natural horse handling is similar to what happens in dogs (& heck in parenting too with free range o parenting or maybe even unschooling) where *some* people give it a bad name by being too permissive & not really training, kwim? There's a big difference in my mind in not forcing a dog to do something & letting it be a jerk.

[Cindyg]

Does it no longer mean something? I'm just curious. All I know about horses will fit on a postage stamp but I have heard of Parelli. And I thought it was good.

 

The Parelli program has changed a lot over the last couple of years. It is much easier now to pass the levels. Those of us who achieved a level status back in the old days are a little disappointed with what constitutes a level pass now.

 

And, as others have mentioned, there have been some mighty strange videos of Pat and Linda (his wife) floating around on the internet lately.

 

I'll tell you this: I have a complicated, difficult horse who was going to eat me for lunch. When I desperately needed help, somebody loaned me the old Parelli video program. I started on page one, step one, and proceeded from there. It was life changing for me and my horse.

 

So I have a big loyal spot in my heart for Parelli even though I'm not quite sure what to make of him right now.

 

Cool that you clicker with your horse! How do you reward? That's another thing I've always been curious about - what do you do when you're riding?

 

Clicker training is not part of Parelli at all. It's something *else* that I do.

 

I use a tongue click (hands free), and I use a large pellet (horse feed) as a treat. This is bigger than a pellet that comes in sweet feed. It's something I buy special and use only for clicker training. I just hand it to him. A properly trained CT horse takes treats politely. :) I feed him dozens of treats by hand every day. Maybe hundreds. We go through two big pocketfuls every time we work together.

 

Under saddle, again, I just hand it to him. Say we're riding along and he does something extra nice -- like tuck his head pretty or stop immediately at a weight shift. I click (tongue click). When he hears the click, he stops immediately regardless of what we were doing when I clicked. That's part of it. (Actually, he is aware when I lift my tongue to the roof of my mouth. He is that tuned in to me.) I dig a treat out and reach it down to him. He turns his head to take it, then we continue with what we were doing.

 

I ride without a bit, but he can take a treat with a bit just fine. Many people treat with a bit in place.

 

If you want to read about clicker training your horse, read anything by Alexandra Kurland. Or ask me. :) I love to talk clicker training!

 

I'm wondering if some of the criticism about natural horse handling is similar to what happens in dogs (& heck in parenting too with free range o parenting or maybe even unschooling) where *some* people give it a bad name by being too permissive & not really training, kwim? There's a big difference in my mind in not forcing a dog to do something & letting it be a jerk.

 

Yeah. It's also like the blind men and the elephant. One day people will complain that NH people are too soft, all a bunch of wimps, never ride, are afraid of horses, spoil their horses, etc. Another day people complain that the NH people are too rough, cruel, beat, torture, and "round pen" (chase/run) their horses.

 

Different people interpret NH differently, and different people have different skill sets. All I know is both Parelli and clicker training have helped me TREMENDOUSLY with a difficult, complicated, scary, and not-cuddly horse. There's a happy medium if you approach it with a genuine concern for the horse's welfare.

 

Also, people who have never spent one dime on natural horsemanship get very bent out of shape at all the money that Parelli makes off us "chumps." Shrug. I've been very happy with the value I've gotten for my money.

[skywards]

For my dd, she will not tolerate a stable where horses are hurt or forced. We use clicker training on our dogs & we're heavily in the +R camp of behaviour modification.

Really, it's not so much about saddle or bit as the orse & how they're broke & how they're treated after.

 

Its all in the handling. I retrain race horses and work with a few on the track, and I can safely say the only horse i ever use a crop on is my lazybones ex racer who will stop in the middle of the arena and stand there unless I carry a crop :lol:. I think I'd like your daughter, she's got the right idea!

[skywards]

Yeah. It's also like the blind men and the elephant. One day people will complain that NH people are too soft, all a bunch of wimps, never ride, are afraid of horses, spoil their horses, etc. Another day people complain that the NH people are too rough, cruel, beat, torture, and "round pen" (chase/run) their horses.

 

And how the different people attempting it interpret it, don't forget that! Some are all "I hurt Fluffy's feelings!" and others "Whack him with the stick!" I knew one lady who gave me her starving, beaten up parelli horse who was so lame he could barely shuffle off the trailer, and then proceeded to chase him around in a circle while telling me she was not lunging, and was quite offended I'd asked :lol:. Horse people, we're all nuts :D

[Remudamom]

I started out disliking the Parelli method because they were so touchy-feely and ushy-gushy over their horses. They had a whole bunch of "games" that you played with your horses, and it looked cool, but they gave you absolutely no info on actually training your horse to do something useful like..........um.......carry a rider or go on a trail ride. If I can't get on a horse and ride off I'm not real interested in the method in which it was trained.

 

Now, I follow Clinton Anderson. His methods have worked for me on all our ranch horses, from older ones that were already broke to day old foals that we raised using his methods. Quarter horses, Arabians and Welsh ponies. Starting from no training at all, and re-training older horses that we've purchased that have issues. He gives you information on what to do when you are saddling, mounting, bridling, riding, the whole deal. I've been riding my whole life, riding for other people since I was a youngster, and training for our ranch......I feel like I just began to understand horses and riding and training when I started using CA's methods. I do know one lady who says he's too rough, but he doesn't do anything on his videos that I wouldn't do.

 

Stacey Westfall is amazing, and very similar to CA. I don't own any of her videos, but I have almost everything CA puts out, including saddles, bridles, the whole shebang. His saddles are incredible, btw.

[Remudamom]

Hey now! I thought we agreed to disagree on this!

 

LOL.

 

Cindy

PNH L2 graduate, from back when that meant something.

 

 

I know, and I'm sorry, but I just watched the latest Parelli mess on Fugly, and I'm outraged all over again.

 

Linda can ride well, really well, but that doesn't mean she can train, and Pat is just an overweight cowboy wannabe. I bet he doesn't even eat mountain oysters.:lol::lol:

 

When we get back from vacation I need to pm you about clickering. I think I'm going to try it with my Ayrabs.

Edited July 16, 2010 by Remudamom

[astrid]

Your daughter can learn to ride at a regular school just as well as she can from someone like that. I grew up showing HJ and now I deal with 'dangerous' race horses. Its not in the method you subscribe to, its how you use your weight, posture, and how well you can read their body language. Just please don't let her buy into any of the 'natural' programs where for only $$$$$$, you too can ride/train like a pro! I've seen a lot of people get hurt that way. Good luck finding someone!

 

 

I agree---- I grew up showing HJ/doing some eventing and the foundation is still the foundation. Good luck to your daughter!

 

astrid

[skywards]

Linda can ride well, really well, but that doesn't mean she can train, and Pat is just an overweight cowboy wannabe. I bet he doesn't even eat mountain oysters.:lol::lol:

 

I might have to disagree there, the videos I've seen of Linda riding make me believe my 5 year old lesson students who've been in an english saddle all of twice have a better grasp on things :tongue_smilie:. I do however wholeheartedly agree with your description of Pat :lol:.

[Remudamom]

I might have to disagree there, the videos I've seen of Linda riding make me believe my 5 year old lesson students who've been in an english saddle all of twice have a better grasp on things :tongue_smilie:. I do however wholeheartedly agree with your description of Pat :lol:.

 

Ha! You may be right there.

[hornblower]

I agree---- I grew up showing HJ/doing some eventing and the foundation is still the foundation. Good luck to your daughter!

 

astrid

 

My daughter took English riding lessons for 2 years & I think she was doing well. I think her particular strength is in seeking to understand animals rather than just boss them around.

 

These comments - I must be missing something big - so pls help me out.

 

"foundation is still the foundation" ---

 

see I just don't get this. In the dog world - Astrid you know this - , there are a multitude of ways of getting to that obedience title. You can +R, -R, +P, -P & the various combinations. You can NILIF, you can make the dog work for ALL his meals, you can crate ALL the time except when working for food.

 

Or you can try to figure out how this dog ticks & how to engage & what games to play to encourage the dog to work with you.

 

You can do early neurological stim, gradual exposure, praise & rewards or you can slap an e-collar on the dog & buzz the heck out of it whenever it's not doing what you want.

 

The foundation would still be the same- a dog that pays attn to you, considers you relevant. the dog will minimally know sit, down, stay, come & heel but I view the dogs produced by these various methods as quite different.

 

And there's also the same stuff about being able to read the dog. But I've heard e-collar +P/-P trainers tell me what they were seeing in a dog & their observation was all : dog is defiant, blowing you off, needs to be corrected

 

My observations were: dog is stressed, confused, needs more information, break task down into smaller chunks

 

I just don't understand what foundation is the same, kwim? Isn't it the same with horses? Some people will say, let's release the pressure/give him some time/change this picture a bit, and others will say you've got to show him who's boss/give in now & he'll never listen to you etc etc etc.

[skywards]

My daughter took English riding lessons for 2 years & I think she was doing well. I think her particular strength is in seeking to understand animals rather than just boss them around.

 

These comments - I must be missing something big - so pls help me out.

 

"foundation is still the foundation" ---

I just don't understand what foundation is the same, kwim? Isn't it the same with horses? Some people will say, let's release the pressure/give him some time/change this picture a bit, and others will say you've got to show him who's boss/give in now & he'll never listen to you etc etc etc.

 

A foundation of safe horsemanship on the ground and proper, balanced equitation. Once she learns to safely ride and handle a horse, she can venture off into whatever discipline she likes, whether it barrel racing or saddle seat. The learning of how to safely handle a horse is absolutely paramount in equestrian sports. So many of these 'natural horsemanship' people are forever leading around horses in an unsafe manner, tieing them up with rope halters (HUGE no no!), using 20' lead ropes, etc. When you allow a horse to trail 10' behind you, what happens when that horse gets stung by a bee and bolts? You're going to get flattened! Don't believe the 'love and leadership' fluffy bullcrap, you can establish yourself as the boss without beating your horse. My horse will stand on the concrete infront of teh barn with the leadrope draped over his neck while I give him a bath. Not because I did some rope tricks, but because I taught him to stand patiently, and because I asked him to do it.

 

Do you have any more questions? I know its hard being the horsey parent, my mom is finally now learning how to help me with my horses.

Edited July 16, 2010 by skywards

[Remudamom]

Well, I don't consider horses and dogs to be the same. (Actually, my dogs aren't anywhere nearly as well behaved as my horses) and although I do have a relationship with my horses, and they act like they are fond of me, my main concern is that my horses respect me, not "love" me.

 

I was at my sister's barn a couple of days ago, and I was shocked that when I opened a stall door one of the horses turned his butt to me. Now I know a couple of ways to address this, and carrots would not be my first option, simply because that is a dangerous behavior and I don't put up with that. I do use treats for other things, like coming to me, or standing calmly or whatever.

 

Behavior that originates from fear I correct with love and carrots, but a behavior that comes from disrespect towards me warrents swift and terrible correction. It's case by case, a horse can kick out of meaness or fear. A horse can spook because they are really surprised, or because they are being silly. Bucking is usually a no-no, but there are still cases where the bucking is justified (saddle malfunctions).

 

To me a good horse training foundation begins with the horse respecting the person, and that respect must come from calm, consistent training, not fear.

[ahousefullofjs]

OMG - this is so amazing. Made me choke up to see it:

 

http://www.youtube.com/user/StacyLWestfall#p/a/u/0/TKK7AXLOUNo

 

I don't know anything about riding (city girl here) but that was beautiful. Thanks for sharing.

[2cents]

I know very little about horses but that is amazing! I loved the last part when she ran off the horse followed without any ropes etc. So sweet. :)

[DarlaS]

Well, I don't consider horses and dogs to be the same. (Actually, my dogs aren't anywhere nearly as well behaved as my horses) and although I do have a relationship with my horses, and they act like they are fond of me, my main concern is that my horses respect me, not "love" me.

 

I was at my sister's barn a couple of days ago, and I was shocked that when I opened a stall door one of the horses turned his butt to me. Now I know a couple of ways to address this, and carrots would not be my first option, simply because that is a dangerous behavior and I don't put up with that. I do use treats for other things, like coming to me, or standing calmly or whatever.

 

Behavior that originates from fear I correct with love and carrots, but a behavior that comes from disrespect towards me warrents swift and terrible correction. It's case by case, a horse can kick out of meaness or fear. A horse can spook because they are really surprised, or because they are being silly. Bucking is usually a no-no, but there are still cases where the bucking is justified (saddle malfunctions).

 

To me a good horse training foundation begins with the horse respecting the person, and that respect must come from calm, consistent training, not fear.

 

When I used to ride and own horses (way way back when...) there were definite negative consequences for certain things. Since it does in fact happen in their natural (without humans) world, I do think there is a place for it.

 

I think people who put the focus entirely on positive reinforcement may be missing an important part of animal communication--horses and dogs alike.

[hornblower]

I know its hard being the horsey parent, my mom is finally now learning how to help me with my horses.

 

Well, I'm not a horsey parent - she's not taking lessons now. :-)

 

Horses do present their challenges that's for sure - their sheer size makes certain things very dangerous. OTOH, the dogs we care for (ours & our fosters) are all big & have an awful lot of very big teeth & several of the ones we've worked with have been very troubled indeed.

 

dd has a keen interest in behaviour theory. She's eagerly awaiting the arrival of Karen Pryor's Reaching the Animal Mind.....part of her summer reading list.

[Cindyg]

dd has a keen interest in behaviour theory. She's eagerly awaiting the arrival of Karen Pryor's Reaching the Animal Mind.....part of her summer reading list.

 

I wish she could come meet my clicker trained horse. It's really a wonderful way to interact with a horse. (Sadly, I'm far from you -- in Texas.)