A serious and longish question about higher education and attention spans.

[PariSarah]

I went to a presentation today at which there was free food.

 

(I did not pay attention to the actual purpose of the lecture when I was signing up. Just the promise of free food.)

 

Anyhoo, the presentation was on using PowerPoint for your lectures and talks and presentations and whatnot. The gentleman was extraordinarily well-prepared and well-educated. All in all, it was an excellent presentation, attending to all the latest pedagogical research in its construction as well as in its content. (So, after telling us that the average attention span for lecture-based teaching is twenty minutes and that we should plan small activities to refocus our audience's attention every twenty minutes, he asked us to break into groups and discuss what he'd just said.)

 

He also seemed like a genuinely nice guy.

 

But even though they had bribed me with rather good deli food, I almost shouted at him about seven times during the lecture. The third time, I had to start knitting something to keep myself from telling him that it was the most ludicrous thing I'd ever heard in my life.

 

Some of the things he suggested:

PowerPoint slides should have fewer than fifteen words per slide, and perhaps fewer than ten.

PowerPoint presentations should be photo-rich and content-lite.

PowerPoint slides should be enhancements to the content of the lecture rather than identical to the content of the lecture. (So, someone looking at your ppt presentation after the fact will not know what you said.)

Good lecturers will never lecture for more than fifteen or twenty minutes at a time, and if required to do so, will break up the presentation with activities--group work, a little singing, stretching, maybe a group photo.

 

(I'm serious. He suggested taking a group photo. Then he actually took a photo of us. That's when the knitting came out.)

 

Okay, so: I'm picturing myself giving a lecture to the general public on a topic with which they were not familiar. Say, guest-teaching in a Sunday School class on Second Temple Judaism or giving a lecture on theology to a bunch of doctors or one on ecology to a bunch of musicians. Fine. Makes sense. Really, really helpful, actually. Exactly the sort of techniques I would want to use (except for the photo).

 

But he was talking about the classroom setting. He was telling me that college students can't be expected to pay attention more than twenty minutes at a time. He was telling me that the hour-and-a-half lecture sessions which I've attended for seven of the last ten years are impossible to follow. He was trying to tell me that ppt presentations would make my lectures better, but only if they were content-lite, photo-rich, and neatly broken up in to pre-digested chunks so that I don't burden my students with having to concentrate.

 

He was telling me that when I have a single semester to get through the entire New Testament, I have to use pictures and go content-lite. (And he spelled it "lite"--he's lucky I didn't bring my metal knitting needles.)

 

He was telling me that by the end of a three-year graduate program, I shouldn't expect a grown woman to sit in her seat for seventy-five minutes and take notes.

 

He was telling me that between second grade and twenty-third grade (yes, I am now in my eleventh year of post-secondary education), I should have made no progress in my ability to listen and learn.

 

So, here's my question: was I wrong to think that he was . . . at best, misguided? That maybe the purpose of undergraduate and graduate education is to train kids not to need to take a group photo in order to pay attention? That never expecting my kids to pay attention for longer than twenty minutes also means never letting my kids pay attention longer than twenty minutes? That the purpose of note-taking is so that we can go back and study the material? That it's the teacher's job to offer content for the student to learn, and the student's job to wrestle with the content outside of class?

 

Am I the crazy one? I can remember attending ninety-minute lectures, hanging on every word the pedagogically hopeless professor was saying, and coming home and reporting it in detail to my hubby (and our poor son, who had to listen to it all). I can remember leaving a lecture in an intro class, fuming, absolutely fuming that I had paid $xyz for that class, "And all I get is twenty minutes of content and thirty minutes of 'group work'??? With a bunch of people who've never read the OT before in their lives?!?!"

 

I'm all down with the idea that you can't sit a fourth grader down in front of a teacher who lectures for forty-five minutes and expect him to retain and be able to utilize any of that information.

 

But surely, surely we can expect more from college seniors, from graduate students. Surely there is something to be said for acquiring the physical and mental discipline that attending to a ninety-minute lecture takes.

 

What say you?

[Perry]

Well, I have to agree with much of what he says.

 

I agree that there shouldn't be many words on a slide. This is a pretty standard recommendation, and it's meant to prevent people from writing in complete sentences and reading it to the audience. Those presentations are deadly boring and the audience will completely tune out the presenter. They may as well just give everyone the handout and go home.

 

I also agree with content lite and picture heavy. The presenter should be providing the content. The slides should be giving key words, graphs, charts, and other appropriate visuals.

 

I totally agree that the whole presentation shouldn't be on the slide. The audience should be taking notes if they want to remember stuff later.

 

I don't know about the length of time. I think it's fine to break it up a little now and then. But I would expect college students to be able to sit through a 90 minute lecture.

 

I would also add: avoid all the flashy animation, sound effects, and busy backgrounds. They are annoying and distract from the speaker.

 

 

His recommendations are pretty standard. They are exactly what my dissertation committee recommended when I was preparing my thesis defense.

[Colleen in NS]

Am I the crazy one? I can remember attending ninety-minute lectures, hanging on every word the pedagogically hopeless professor was saying, and coming home and reporting it in detail to my hubby (and our poor son, who had to listen to it all). I can remember leaving a lecture in an intro class, fuming, absolutely fuming that I had paid $xyz for that class, "And all I get is twenty minutes of content and thirty minutes of 'group work'??? With a bunch of people who've never read the OT before in their lives?!?!"

 

I agree with you. I have no profound thoughts to add here. And, good thing you carry your knitting around with you!

[Mom2legomaniacs]

This will be a post in which I actually speak my mind a bit. Please don't hate me for it, okay?

 

I think he is speaking from a place that our society has evolved in to. Drive thru windows, immediate service, video games, texting, etc. We want our information quickly, simply put, and condensed. We don't want to work for it.

 

I sat through quite a few 3 hour lectures in grad. school. I have a very short attention span. My head is all over the place and wanders frequently. I did fine. One prof. would have to be reminded, after 2 hours of intense and manic writing on the board, that we needed a short break for the facilities and to give our hands a slight rest. He was a maniac on the boards but a fantastic lecturer for Stats. And I managed quite well. Someone who has a HORRIBLE attention span.

 

I do not think his assertions are reasonable for a college classroom at all. Even less so the more concentrated one becomes in an area.

 

Now, for a general talk to joe-public, fine. But not for adult students in a classroom.

 

I do think it is somewhat a reflection of our society today, though. And I don't necessarily like where some parts of "today" are heading either.

 

There. No flames please. I spoke my mind. Pat me on the back for that as it is not easy for me at all!:D

[Remudamom]

Ummm, sorry, what was that again? I got distracted.

[Kay in Cal]

I agree with you! Good advice for a general interest presentation (maybe even a guest sermon)... but for college? Grad school? Higher education should have just that--higher standards. Deeper content. I think group work and discussion can be valuable even in that setting, but it cannot replace the basic experience of absorbing information. Even seminar format classes I took (small groups around tables) were intense, long, and content-rich. And would not have been helped by a powerpoint presentation at all!

[Mom2legomaniacs]

Ummm, sorry, what was that again? I got distracted.

 

I almost started with that! LOL!

[Eleni]

I'm still stuck on free food......

[Sue G in PA]

Are you crazy to think that a "normal" undergrad could sit through a 90 min. lecture? No. I could. Many could. I'm looking at my ds6 who has Aspergers and thinking there is no way in you-know-where, unless by some major miracle that he will EVER sit through even a 20 min. lecture! Even 12 years from now! Perhaps his purpose was to say that we "shouldn't" lecture for that long w/out including some sort of activity? My dh does several training sessions each year as part of his job (educational reform) and he would probably concur w/ all this gentleman's points about Powerpoint presentations AND about lecturing in general. Lecturing only captivates the auditory learner and yes, even as adults, we all have our own learning style! I think it would be beneficial even in college to appeal to as many of the learning styles as possible, KWIM? If the purpose of each class is to educate the students in whatever field of discipline it is, shouldn't the prof. do so as to reach as many of the students as possible? We go through the same thing w/ our own dc. Each has their own unique way of learning (optimumly). While my dd11 and ds8 could sit through a lecture or do workbooks for hours, my ds6 and ds9's eyes would glaze over and their brain would shut down after 10 minutes w/out some sort of activity!

 

I don't think you are crazy at all, though. We should expect "normal" undergrads to be able to sit through the lecture, but is that the best possible way to get the info. across? My dh addresses this when he coaches high school teachers. He has a field day w/ the teachers who "talk at" the students the entire 50 min. period. He's always telling them to incorporate some sort of activity or "game" or something to ENGAGE the students. I think even undergrads need that. But, I do see your point...so no...don't think you are crazy. :)

[PariSarah]

His recommendations are pretty standard. They are exactly what my dissertation committee recommended when I was preparing my thesis defense.

 

Yes, yes, I agree!! I tried to say that I found the suggestions helpful for thinking about how to use ppt well for a good general-public lecture. Grateful for them, actually. Very. It's exactly the sort of presentation I can imagine taking on the road with me when I do my "Guest Lecturing" routine. Yes, absolutely.

 

What tripped me up was the idea that these suggestions applied to all lectures. He didn't put it in so many words, but his general presumption was that all lectures would be enhanced by using ppt. And thus, these standards should apply to all lectures. One ought to craft all one's lectures this way--in a powerpointable style, you know? He seemed to be saying that not only should one's ppt slides not contain lots of words, but that one's lectures should be content-lite.

 

He didn't seem to understand that there was any value to the "traditional" lecture setting. At all. There seemed to be no situation, no discipline, no level for which a powerpointable presentation was just too content-lite.

[Remudamom]

I almost started with that! LOL!

 

Great minds, ya know!

[Eleni]

Was this a lecture on the validity of using Power Point and breaking things up into mini segments....or was it a sales presentation?

 

For some reason, it struck me as if the presentation were a sales presentation, and the man...since he was selling this manner of teaching...had to to show the why it would be so beneficial.

 

I have noticed lately that there is a "thing" (not sure what else to call it) of getting a college degree as quickly and painlessly as possible..."do XYZ, and baby, youve got it and your on your way to being more marketable"

So, I can see why this Power Point keeping it preschool lesson short, complete with group singing, could make "education" palatable? ;)

 

This is one of my soapbox issues that dh and I get into often. He is degree-less...sees no reason to have one, and is incredibly successful with his career...so for career and income reasons, he truly does not need one. He also hires people with higher level degrees and often hears them say they just got their degree to get it. :confused: I, however, do have a strong desire to go back to school, I WANT to sit in long lectures I WANT to struggle to pull great grades and to learn under someone who has dedicated their life to their field...just to do it, to acheive something.

[Perry]

I should have mentioned that my field is the health sciences, which relies heavily on data. So we use PowerPoint mainly for presentation of data and study results. I don't know why anyone would really want to use PowerPoint for presentations that don't use data or visual material. It's unnecessary and I personally don't like them if they aren't adding anything visual.

[Perry]

LOL- We were posting at the same time! This is what I was trying to get at below.

[PariSarah]

I, however, do have a strong desire to go back to school, I WANT to sit in long lectures I WANT to struggle to pull great grades and to learn under someone who has dedicated their life to their field...just to do it, to acheive something.

 

. . . .rather than in the undergrad section is that there are lots of students like you! They're a joy to teach.

 

I hope you get a chance to fulfill your heart's desires!

[percytruffle]

Some of the things he suggested:

PowerPoint slides should have fewer than fifteen words per slide, and perhaps fewer than ten.

PowerPoint presentations should be photo-rich and content-lite.

PowerPoint slides should be enhancements to the content of the lecture rather than identical to the content of the lecture. (So, someone looking at your ppt presentation after the fact will not know what you said.)

Good lecturers will never lecture for more than fifteen or twenty minutes at a time, and if required to do so, will break up the presentation with activities--group work, a little singing, stretching, maybe a group photo.

 

 

I agree with most of this, from both a visual and auditory perspective, except the group photo thing (what in the world is that about?!).

 

The length of time one can focus varies with individuals, but is pretty closely tied to about 20 minutes (Charlotte Mason comes to mind). That said, it is more than reasonable to assume at that level of education that one has perfected the ability to distinguish those moments when your focus drifts and refocus for yourself without a silly photo break! I would shift around in my seat, refold my notebook, glance at the clock, etc...and it would be enough of a mind break to carry on. At what level does this guy think students are stuck! Our pastor preaches for a good 30-45 minutes each Sunday, without a break for group photos, and the congregation has no trouble following him. I'm quite sure most of the people listening on any given Sunday morning are not Doctoral candidates!

[Old Dominion Heather]

If your goal is to make higher education more accessible, then I think what he is saying certainly does that. I think the question becomes "Should we try to make attaining a degree more accessible?"

 

See, I would say, "NO! We shouldn't" because that cheapens the achievement. I know my mom (prof.) would agree. She is happy this week because her committee failed two people who were defending their dissertations. She said it renewed her faith in humanity. (Although this is the same woman who may have touched "the item" at the library last night, so she is having quite a roller coaster of a week!)

 

I think that if a teacher can follow all of this guy's recommendations and NOT lose content, the class is pure fluff anyway.

[Doran]

I can see why you think he's a cheerleader for dumbing down. But, let's look at it another way.

 

Let's say you sat through two lectures -- Lecture One: A seventy five minute lecture which consisted of the professor droning on (let's pretend s/he's not a very animated lecturer, just for the sake of it, okay?), and on, for those full 75 minutes. Maybe s/he occasionally jots some key points on the board. Or, Lecture Two: A seventy five minute lecture which is interspersed with interesting PPt visuals, a random interactive something or other, a stand up and stretch, so that your session was broken into three 20 minute segments with "bits of fluff" in between.

 

Which lecture do you think you'd remember more positively? Would you really miss that much in those 15 minutes, or would you maybe gain something better in return?

 

I attended an all day seminar on grant writing back in February. The room was filled with 40 or more adults, each of us already members of the work force and, therefore, somewhat knowledgable about the topic. Our instructor knew her stuff. She was good. Very good. But, she also handed out prizes at odd moments, such as for answering a question correctly. After lunch, she passed around a basketful of "toys" including little pots of PlayDoh, and bendy gizmos. I'd never seen anything like it. And, it worked. It served her purpose. It stimulated our brains in a way we weren't expecting.

 

I don't know that he was trying to say a graduate student couldn't be expected to pay attention for a solid 75 minutes, or 90, or whatever, without some sort of distraction. Maybe it was more about how to make a lecture memorable for those who don't have the ability to charm, inject humor, or bring out the most compelling material three times a week. Remember, Sarah, not everyone is as talented as you! :D

 

Just my $.02

 

Doran

[PariSarah]

Funny and incisive all wrapped up together!!

 

If your goal is to make higher education more accessible, then I think what he is saying certainly does that. I think the question becomes "Should we try to make attaining a degree more accessible?"

 

See, I would say, "NO! We shouldn't" because that cheapens the achievement. I know my mom (prof.) would agree. She is happy this week because her committee failed two people who were defending their dissertations. She said it renewed her faith in humanity.

 

 

I'm with you and her. Assuming that we're doing a decent job of secondary education, assuming that a high school degree actually means that someone could go out and get a decent job and support a family, there should be no problem at all telling somebody, "You know, graduate work just isn't for you." "You know, college isn't your thing, and that's fine."

 

Of course, since a high school degree does, is, or means no such thing, we do have a problem. But in principle, I really want college and graduate school to be hard, to mean something.

 

I think that if a teacher can follow all of this guy's recommendations and NOT lose content, the class is pure fluff anyway.

 

Tee hee!

[Janet in WA]

PowerPoint presentations should be photo-rich and content-lite.

 

Well, I wasn't there for this lecture, but reading this item, I assumed he meant that the PowerPoint component of the lecture should be content-lite (an enhancement of the lecture material, not a mirror of it) -- not that the entire lecture should be content-lite.

[PariSarah]

Lecturing only captivates the auditory learner and yes, even as adults, we all have our own learning style! I think it would be beneficial even in college to appeal to as many of the learning styles as possible, KWIM? If the purpose of each class is to educate the students in whatever field of discipline it is, shouldn't the prof. do so as to reach as many of the students as possible?

 

Oh, you're taking me to task so gently!

 

Yes, I can see this. Yes. It makes sense.

 

Especially in my field, where there are LOTS of reasons to include students who aren't necessarily good students. The things that make for a great student are NOT the same things that make for a great pastor. It's true.

 

My hubby was just telling me about the worst student he ever had. Couldn't write a coherent paper on how to turn on a lamp. But he plays basketball with him, and he was telling dh about his ministry as a youth pastor. "Oh, I've had a rough week. Had to do a funeral for one of my kids--gang shooting, very sad; left the funeral to go to 'nother kid's arraignment. Nasty stuff. But some good stuff too--got two of my kids to confess to their parents that they were on drugs. Work of the Spirit, you know?"

 

Oh. Okay. Well, carry on. That C+ I gave you? It don't mean nothing.

[Jane in NC]

Sarah,

 

This is a tangential question, but have you ever looked at Edward Tufte's books on information design?

 

Tufte, a professor at Yale, has contempt for Power Point (can't blame him) and has shown how poorly transmitted information in snazzy, "lite" Power Points leads to misinformation. My husband took a weekend course with this guy and was astounded by what he learned. Yes, intelligent audiences can grasp a great deal, but even in a two hour lecture there is some streamlining that is happening. How does one effectively convey information (particularly data) without overwhelming the listener? How does one help the listener retain and possibly connect the dots on the subject matter?

 

I have introduced Tufte to people who work in social and hard science. All feel that they have had an "Aha" moment after examining one of his books. May I suggest that the next time your mind is wandering in the library (I used to fall asleep while writing my thesis!) you take a break and introduce yourself to Tufte.

 

You may now return to your message on minimal expectations.

 

Jane

[PariSarah]

Which lecture do you think you'd remember more positively? Would you really miss that much in those 15 minutes, or would you maybe gain something better in return?

 

I attended an all day seminar on grant writing back in February. The room was filled with 40 or more adults, each of us already members of the work force and, therefore, somewhat knowledgable about the topic. Our instructor knew her stuff. She was good. Very good. But, she also handed out prizes at odd moments, such as for answering a question correctly. After lunch, she passed around a basketful of "toys" including little pots of PlayDoh, and bendy gizmos. I'd never seen anything like it. And, it worked. It served her purpose. It stimulated our brains in a way we weren't expecting.

 

I once had a professor throw tootsie rolls at us from time to time. Loved that class. :D

 

Yeah. I guess . . . I don't know. It's true that some professors could do with a little extra polish. And, sure, one should be able to do with one's voice and one's rhetorical structure what the lecturer in your example was doing with PlayDoh. But if one can't, maybe PlayDoh is a good enough substitute.

 

I guess I've gotten used to being around people who really do think that the content is important enough and fascinating enough that the physical and mental work that it takes to listen well, even to a bad public speaker, is worthwhile. That the worst speakers sometimes have the best ideas, and that it's the student's job to know that.

 

But, you know, now that I think about it, there can be a snobbery to that sort of perspective, too. "Oh, well, Dr. YoungGuy is nice enough, but . . ." [gruffly coughs] . . . "well, some of us are doing work that's too important to be put into a slideshow." [preens self-importantly] "My lectures are too good to be dolled up with fancy speaking techniques." That sort of thing. I guess I have to be wary of that attitude.

[PariSarah]

I will definitely look him up--thanks for the rec!

 

(I used to fall asleep while writing my thesis!)

 

Oh, I fear that I'm headed that way. :tongue_smilie:

[battlemaiden]

Sarah,

 

This is a tangential question, but have you ever looked at Edward Tufte's books on information design?

 

Tufte, a professor at Yale, has contempt for Power Point (can't blame him) and has shown how poorly transmitted information in snazzy, "lite" Power Points leads to misinformation. My husband took a weekend course with this guy and was astounded by what he learned. Yes, intelligent audiences can grasp a great deal, but even in a two hour lecture there is some streamlining that is happening. How does one effectively convey information (particularly data) without overwhelming the listener? How does one help the listener retain and possibly connect the dots on the subject matter?

 

I have introduced Tufte to people who work in social and hard science. All feel that they have had an "Aha" moment after examining one of his books. May I suggest that the next time your mind is wandering in the library (I used to fall asleep while writing my thesis!) you take a break and introduce yourself to Tufte.

 

You may now return to your message on minimal expectations.

 

Jane

 

Yes. My dh was responsible to transfer all lecture material into Ppt format while teaching at the Univ. of MN a while back. He was a big fan of "modernizing" the presentation. At the end of this monumental task he had to admit that although something was needed to upgrade the visuals during lectures, he found the retention success of the Ppt format minimal. This was for undergraduate work.

 

He now believes Ppt can too often be used as a crutch for bad lecturers. In his opinion a good professor keeps his class engaged through a variety of techniques and rarely, very rarely is powerpt involved. But that is simply his opinion. He's not here to ask, but I would guess he would put a large chunk of the responsibility in the student's lap as well.

 

Jo

[Myrtle]

Replacing content with entertainment is rewarding the non-thinkers and punishing those willing and able to think.

 

It doesn't surprise me that it's been heading in this direction. You get a bigger market catering to the nonthinkers since there are more of them. And it sounds like from the structure of his own lecture he's made the presumption that his audience falls into the former category.

[Maria from IN]

As a future grad student, :D I would hope that professors are going to treat our 3-hour classes like they treat the undergrad 50-minute and 1-hour 15-minute classes: by encouraging us to speak. To read the material before we get to class so we'll have something coherent to say (or argue about, or agree with) when we get there.

 

So many college freshmen are so used to just sitting in their chairs memorizing this information to regurgitate later that they often don't have an opinion on the lecture other than "this guy is boring!" :001_huh:

 

This guy and his PowerPoint hoo-hah is just so out of place to me. Does he not think active discussion is conducive to learning?

[Mamagistra]

I have noticed lately that there is a "thing" (not sure what else to call it) of getting a college degree as quickly and painlessly as possible..."do XYZ, and baby, youve got it and your on your way to being more marketable"

 

Tell me about it! A former supervisor recently advised dee-aitch to get his "piece o' paper" by finding and enlisting other students to do the work for him. :eek: What a skunk.

[PariSarah]

As a future grad student, :D I would hope that professors are going to treat our 3-hour classes like they treat the undergrad 50-minute and 1-hour 15-minute classes: by encouraging us to speak. To read the material before we get to class so we'll have something coherent to say (or argue about, or agree with) when we get there.

 

All our classes that are three hours are seminar classes, with prerequisites. So, yes, the expectations there are even higher! The assumption is that with the common ground from the lecture classes, you'll have something to say, and those around you will, too.

 

This guy and his PowerPoint hoo-hah is just so out of place to me. Does he not think active discussion is conducive to learning?

 

Actually, one of the break-out activities that he suggested was "group discussion." I'm not sure how 5 minutes of group discussion is good for ANYTHING, but he definitely put it in the mix.

 

But he doesn't seem to recognize that note-taking, for example, is a form of learning. You have to do some synthesizing when you try to figure out what's important and what's not, what should be taken down verbatim, what is a major outline point and what is subsidiary.

 

I don't know. I should stop beating this poor dead horse.:leaving:

[PariSarah]

You get a bigger market catering to the nonthinkers since there are more of them.

 

*snort*!!

 

 

And it sounds like from the structure of his own lecture he's made the presumption that his audience falls into the former category.

 

I think that was why I wanted to stab him with my knitting needles. :chillpill:

(That, and the part where he spelled it "lite.")

[GraceinMD]

Sarah,

 

Edward Tufte's books on information design

 

These are just exactly the books I was going to suggest, Sarah. Now, I don't necessarily agree with Tufte about Powerpoint - I think that a WELL-DONE slide presentation can be a thing of beauty! But Tufte has some wonderful ideas about HOW to present information... and I wonder if THAT'S what your lecturer was trying to convey?

 

We live in a very old house, and found some instructions written by the builder of the house to his son. I think the son may have been about 10-15 yrs old, from the content. The paper was a speech with detailed markings about where to inflect a word, or a phrase, and what sort of inflection to use ("rising tone," "humorous tone," "sad expression," etc.). (This is from about 200 yrs ago.) It was fascinating to look at, and I'd bet that NONE of my professors in college had EVER learned any such thing - or at least you'd never know from the way some of them droned on!

 

The teacher I remember most of all from high school was Frank "Boo-boo" Anderson - my physics teacher who was incredibly strict, lectured at a rapid clip, didn't write too much on the board, expected you to pay attention, and ... threw things and shot things and swung things - all to demonstrate what he was teaching (periodicity, muzzle velocity, etc.). My point (ahem) is that maybe the lecturer at the free-food forum has become too enamored of Powerpoint, and what he was trying to convey was, "Be engaging!" (OK, I'm trying to give the guy the benefit of the doubt, because I would suddenly find myself needed elsewhere STAT if someone tried to take a group photo - ack!!)

 

So, should folks be able to pay attention? Of course.

Should the lecturer be engaging? Of course.

Should things be broken into 20 minute segments? Well, maybe! I think that should be part of the natural rhythm of a lecture (e.g., breaking up a discussion with anecdote/story/joke), and that using Powerpoint, or singing (cringe; ok, when appropriate), or group photo (please tell me that's part of a photography class!) might possibly "fit" into that paradigm.

 

The "content liGHte" part I can't fathom....

 

Finally, if you read Tufte, and if you're using lap books in your homeschool, you'll get lots of creative ideas on how to display that information that you want your littles to learn and retain!

[PariSarah]

One prof. would have to be reminded, after 2 hours of intense and manic writing on the board, that we needed a short break for the facilities and to give our hands a slight rest. He was a maniac on the boards but a fantastic lecturer for Stats. And I managed quite well. Someone who has a HORRIBLE attention span.

 

I'm thinkin' that I need to rethink. I'm imagining three hours in a room with someone lecturing on statistics, and I'm wishing for those tootsie rolls!! :D

 

No, I think you're right on. I'm glad you loved your work. It's a nice place to be, isn't it?

[Mom2legomaniacs]

I'm thinkin' that I need to rethink. I'm imagining three hours in a room with someone lecturing on statistics, and I'm wishing for those tootsie rolls!! :D

 

No, I think you're right on. I'm glad you loved your work. It's a nice place to be, isn't it?

 

There would be some topics and some profs that I would hate to have sat through an hour lecture much less a 3 hour class. But he was such an amazing teacher. He is the reason I actually discovered that I liked statistics! The undergrad prof for stats was such a total jerk. I strongly disliked him. And he did such a disservice to a truly interesting area in math. (am I showing enough of my geekness yet?)

 

A truly good prof can make a 3 hour class not long enough. And I squirm sitting in church sometimes!

[Danestress]

I don't think you are crazy at all.

 

But I have been listening to taped seminary classes recently - wanting to learn about the Gospel of John. These are from the Reformed Theological Seminary, which posts them for free. Maybe the students there aren't quite as bright as the students at Duke. But it sort of cracks me up that I am trying to hard to get everything without the help of whatever visual aids the teacher would have used, and the professor makes periodic comments like:

 

"anyone who isn't looking out the window, please turn to ...."

 

Or "Ummm, you migh want to focus now, nothing's really more important than understanding the Greek here"

 

lol. These are seminary students. I just assumed that considering what it would cost to actually GO to this seminary ($395 per credit hour - I checked because it's only half a mile from here and I thought maybe ..... but no ....) they would be RIVETED.

[Stacy in NJ]

I think you're right. It sounds like he drank some koolaid at one of the "better" schools of education. Put your hands over your ears and repeat, "I can't hear you."

 

My sil teaches 8th grade. Last year she heard similar information from her Columbia trained student teacher AND her student teacher's evaluator. IMO, frequently we get back exactly what we expect from people. Low expectations? Minimal results.

[WTMindy]

I think that a lecture that long is geared towards audio-learners. Could I do it and take notes for that long? Absolutely! Do I get the most out of it? Nope! I am a visual learner and so a well-done pp really helps someone like me. And, there is nothing worse than a pp that just has a bunch of text that the person reads from.

 

The research is pretty clear that just hearing is the least remembered way to receive information. I don't know all the numbers, but it gets progressively higher if you hear & see, hear & see & discuss, hear & see & discuss & do, and the highest retention is when you have to teach it to someone else.

 

I am NOT (no-sir-ee-bob) a proponent for dumbing down anything!!! But, there are ways to keep both content high and to engage students in methods other than lecture.

[mcconnellboys]

I think the book Losing our Language was written in about the mid-70's. It discusses what increasing TV viewing time was doing to our culture, and this was before the explosion of computer related gaming, i-pods, cell phones for all, etc. I do think that the public at large is losing their ability to focus for any extended period of time. I'm speaking of people who have grown up absolutely immersed in technology from the time they were very little and who continue into adulthood to be daily thus immersed. I think homeschoolers in general do not tend to follow this trend, and there are some other groups who do not fit the trend, such as those who opt out of technology for religious reasons, etc. But within my own community, I certainly do see such a trend emerging in the greater public.

 

Regena

[PariSarah]

And he did such a disservice to a truly interesting area in math. (am I showing enough of my geekness yet?)

 

Have you ever noticed how many knitters are math geeks?

 

You might have fun with this.

[Mom2legomaniacs]

Have you ever noticed how many knitters are math geeks?

 

You might have fun with this.

 

COOL! Thanks! I bookmarked so I can look at it later tonight. Off for dinner out tonight. Woohoo!

[WTMindy]

Have you ever noticed how many knitters are math geeks?

 

You might have fun with this.

 

Hey! I resemble that remark!!! (Looking forward to checking out that site).

[Mom0012]

I am not an auditory learner, so you would probably lose me after about 20 minutes unless you were lecturing about something I was extremely interested in.

 

I always did well in school, but I never really listened to much teachers said in class. This was from early elementary through college. I don't have ADD or anything, but I just learn best on my own with a textbook. Even now, I attend CBS each week and have a really hard time forcing myself to listen to the entire lecture.

 

Lisa

[Old Dominion Heather]

Assuming that we're doing a decent job of secondary education, assuming that a high school degree actually means that someone could go out and get a decent job and support a family, there should be no problem at all telling somebody, "You know, graduate work just isn't for you." "You know, college isn't your thing, and that's fine."

 

Yes! Absolutely. We are obviously long-lost relations! :cheers2: