Omnibus as compared to WTM recs (& TOG)

[abrightmom]

:D In the throes of choosing a direction for our home school as it pertains to literature (GB?) and history :D This REALLY stinks!! Tapestry of Grace and Omnibus are both tempting for a number of reasons. Here are my questions about Omnibus:

 

This begins in 7th grade :scared: with a hefty reading list. Omnibus cycles through history 2 times in six years. I compared the reading lists for Omni with WTM. Bear in mind I have read very few of the selections on either list. A few titles are familiar but quite honestly my education STUNK . . . it's really discouraging :glare:. Many of the selections for Omnibus I (approx 7th gr.) are on SWB's 9th grade list. There are some meaty, challenging works there . . . I am even a bit intimidated by them. Have any Omnibus users experienced a struggle with this with their 7th grade kiddos? What about burn out (six years of Omnibus - is this drudgery or an invigorating challenge enjoyed by the young adults?) Perhaps it's not as HARD as it looks. Any thoughts on the appropriate age? Is this a matter of opinion or readiness on the child's part?

 

Is Omnibus heavier on the literature and lighter on the history? These titles are so unfamiliar that I'm not sure what is history and what is just "literature" (if there is a difference by this point in their studies).

 

Is there help with integrating writing with Omnibus? I think I will need direction and help in walking my kids through this process, especially at this level and with these kinds of books. TOG SEEMS to have more direction and help here but I am really not sure.

 

Does anyone know how TOG compares to Omnibus or WTM for logic and rhetoric when it comes to the types of books read? That is probably a big question and I'll have to research that.

 

I ask these questions here because Omnibus begins in 7th grade and that is what I'm trying to wrap my mind around. If Omnibus is taken off the table for my kids (or left on the table) then my course will be clarified and I will know where to start with our studies this year. I want to make sure my rising 2nd grader will have the right preparation in these early years for the logic and rhetoric stages. I want to start in the right place. :D

 

I've been haunting the High School board as well . . . still unsure about this set of questions which is why I am bothering you all!!!!!! Thank-you so so so much! :D

Edited May 10, 2010 by abrightmom
My typos and jumbled thoughts

[Janice in NJ]

I loved the look and the feel of the Omnibus book. Confession time: I couldn't teach from it. I needed more help than the text offered me. It seemed simple enough, but I couldn't discuss the works with my kids using that launch pad. Veritas also suggests Spielvogel's Western Civ. as an additional text to use to fill in the picture for the rest of the history. Even that book was too hard for me in the beginning. I didn't have enough background to USE that book to teach. Yes, I could read the book - sort of. But I couldn't use it to teach. The two books paired up to made me feel stupid. :001_smile: Probably because I was. :001_smile:

 

Anyway. I needed a different entry point. I found mine.

 

And now I'm not completely a dolt. Only mostly. :001_smile:

 

I am being really cheeky here. :tongue_smilie:

 

Seriously though. Loved the look of Omnibus, but I couldn't teach with it - not the 7th graders that I had/have around here. Other materials helped our family move forward. Hopefully someone who loves the program and CAN teach from it will chime in.

 

OK. That was blunt. Sorry. I'm smiling here: what I mean to say: I have learned to look at curriculum in terms of my entry point and my family's realistic exit points. If I'm starting at the ground floor with something, it does me no good to try to use a program that assums that I've been living on the 4th floor for a while. No matter how hard I try, the program is going to assume that I know how to do certain things. If I don't know how to do them, the program is going to frustrate me and my kids. It's not the program's fault. I get that. I'm the problem.

 

For example. Vertias offers a book introduction for each text.

 

http://books.google.com/books?printsec=frontcover&id=zClmDnl3b3EC#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

Page 4. talks about several things:

- vicious results of the Diocletian persecution.

- Constantine, the first Christian emperor

- Arian controversy and the Council of Nicea which Constantine convened in 325 to bring peace and unity to the church.

It goes on to indicate the theme of the book. "As Eusebius glanced back...."

 

It's fine. But I was in no position to help my children understand some of these events. So I couldn't help them evaluate the essayist's statements - and YES, those statement's include author's bias. That's as it should be, but a teacher knows how to work through bias with her students. The author's theme is also stated. Fine. I like to help my kids work through that after we complete the book. I don't like curriculum that tips the cards too soon. The Worldview section on page 5 is fine. But I wasn't ready to discuss history with an eye toward teaching my kids to BE historians: the notion that people who are making history don't see themselves in the way we see them hundreds or thousands of years later. Our lens is a different lens. Perspective is everything.

 

Anyway - the essay is good. Lots to read and explore regarding the art of argumentation. I just don't like to explore the issues of a text before my kids interact with the text. I prefer to explore the issues as we move along. Veritas was too heavy-handed for my taste. By exploring the major questions of the text before the child interacts with the text, I really felt like the book was leading the witness.

 

And then the questions. For example - the Cultural Analysis questions on pg 14. 1. What do most people think about Christ? Hmmm.... what does the essayist say about what do most people think? What does my 7th grader think? Who are most people? And should we go ask them? 3. How does our culture define Christian? 1. What authority do the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution have in American society? 2. How does our society tend to look upon past authorities in our culture?

 

These are all HUGE questions. They deserve answers. But I can't use them to educate a 7th grader. They're too big and he doesn't have enough things to sift in order to answer them in the correct way. He needs to learn to sort evidence. He needs to learn to analyze statements. He needs to learn to assess the motives of the people who are making those statements. The steps were just too big for me to use THOSE stairs to teach my kids.

 

When I worked through some of the lessons on my own, I found that the essays told me what to think before I started. Then I tried to read the books and found them difficult to read. (Most of their selections were too difficult for my kids at the jr. high level.) Which made me wonder if they were explaining the text because the text is really to hard for kids to "grasp" on their own. Are they reading the book or are they just reading the books? If they aren't "reading - is that really educating then? If you have to tell them what the arguments are up front because they are likely to miss most of them on their own, then isn't the book too hard to use it to educate?

 

And then the writing assignment: Write an essay or discuss this questions, integrating what you have learned from the material above. Are there apostles today?

 

Could I use that now? Yes. When my oldest was in 7th grade? NO! And in either case, I would not ask a 7th grader to complete a reading assignment and write an essay in one day. I'm not saying that another person shouldn't. I am saying with complete confidence that the program is not what I want for my family.

 

The steps were the wrong set of steps for our family.

I truly hope that someone who loves steppin with the program will chime in and balance my opinion. Because I totally understand that it is my opinion. I could not use that program to teach my 7th grader four years ago. :001_smile:

[Mert]

:bigear:

[abrightmom]

I loved the look and the feel of the Omnibus book. Confession time: I couldn't teach from it. I needed more help than the text offered me. It seemed simple enough, but I couldn't discuss the works with my kids using that launch pad. ...

Seriously though. Loved the look of Omnibus, but I couldn't teach with it - not the 7th graders that I had/have around here. Other materials helped our family move forward. Hopefully someone who loves the program and CAN teach from it will chime in.

 

...

 

Could I use that now? Yes. When my oldest was in 7th grade? NO! And in either case, I would not ask a 7th grader to complete a reading assignment and write an essay in one day. I'm not saying that another person shouldn't. I am saying with complete confidence that the program is not what I want for my family.

 

The steps were the wrong set of steps for our family.

I truly hope that someone who loves steppin with the program will chime in and balance my opinion. Because I totally understand that it is my opinion. I could not use that program to teach my 7th grader four years ago. :001_smile:

 

Janice,

 

I love your input and I especially love that you GRAPPLED with Omnibus in real life. TOG seems like it will help me which IS what I need to be able to carve out a path for my kiddos (and myself :D).

 

Can you tell me if Omnibus emphasizes "Great Books" more than "history" and compare that to TOG (just in a sentence or two will be fine - I thought I'd read this but now I'm not so sure)?

 

Are you saying that Omnibus, while AWESOME & meaty, was more than you were able to handle teaching at that time? You needed MORE hand holding and help to be able to teach those books, right? You also think that the reading was too much for YOUR kids, right?

 

Do you think TOG helps Mom teach writing assignments (or tailor them perhaps) more than Omnibus does? Is Omnibus assuming that Mom KNOWS how to do this or perhaps Mom would have learned how to do this if using VP's recs all along (they use IEW)? Perhaps it's a toss up between the two . . .

 

I am going to read your post again. There are many layers to your thought processes and I always learn something new the second time through. It's kind of like an Agatha Christie novel or movie -- I pick up so much the second run through!!!! Hee hee. :bigear:

[Jen the RD]

Katrina,

I'll preface my comments by saying that I have not actually *used* TOG or Omnibus, so take them for what they are worth to you.

 

I have a rising 7th grader and I, too, have been on a quest to find the a history program for us. I sat down and really looked over the Omnibus text and book selections. They are very different from what we have been doing in history. I was quite surprised that this was even considered a 7th grade level course. IMHO, I put it more on about 9th grade level. In many ways, I felt just like Janice in NJ...I don't have the background (or time) to sift through all this info and teach. Again, though I haven't used TOG, I would say (based on my assessment and what friends that have used it have told me) that there is more hand-holding and teacher direction along with specific weekly goals to accomplish. (This type of thing works better for me.) That's not to say that you won't spend a considerable amount of time bringing yourself up to speed, but I think the way TOG presents the background info for you as the teacher is much easier than Omnibus. Again, I have not used either, but in my own analysis of both, this is what I perceive. Both are excellent programs, but really I would recommend that you decide what you need as the teacher first, and then what your student needs. Make a list of priorities for both of you including what you want to accomplish in other subjects. This may help you determine what you realistically can implement.

 

HTH,

Jennifer

 

I just realized your eldest is only 7, so my comments may not even be helpful! Sorry. In that case, you may want to get Omnibus for yourself. You could go ahead and self-educate and be totally prepared to teach it by the time your 7th grader does it.

Edited May 10, 2010 by Jen the RD

[JennW in SoCal]

Oh! After I began to write a reply I noticed the ages of your children! You aren't preparing for 7th grade next year, but are thinking long term. I think my answer is going to be the same regardless.

 

I have Omnibus I on my shelf, borrowed from a friend who used it with his ds in high school. I toyed with using it this year for my 10th grader but decided against it. I've never used a packaged program in my 11 years of homeschooling, so figured there was no need to start now. I agree with others that Omnibus is mighty hefty for 7th grade. I know there might be kids out there who could handle that reading load, but really, middle school is usually a time of puberty and growth spurts with little brain power left for higher level thinking. I can't imagine assigning those works at that age.

 

Perhaps you should re-read the "Rhetoric" section of the WTM, and read the Well Educated Mind as well, then listen to SWB's talks on writing and on literary analysis. It isn't difficult to do on your own, and you can design a course to match your child's interests. I combine literature and history for my high schoolers, I don't use a writing curriculum, but do things as described in the WTM. My ds does some reading to get the historical context for a work, reads the work, we discuss it (I often am reading at the same time or have pre-read the work) and he writes an essay. We also use lectures from the Teaching Company for additional background or analysis.

 

My kids were well prepared for this as they have been surrounded by good literature all their lives. They've read plenty of "twaddle" too. We have read together and discussed, watched movies together and discussed, and they had a great overview of history -- without Story of the World, I might add. It came out when my kids were older! I spent the middle school years reading aloud to my kids or listening to audio books. It was a way to recreate those enjoyable read aloud times from when they were young, and it was a great way to be sure they were ready for high school level reading.

[Colleen in NS]

Hey, questions are *supposed* to be asked here - you are not bothering anyone!!!:D

 

After having a look at Omnibus (I've not used it, nor TOG, but have looked at both), I can say that I could *not* use that with my rising 7th grader next year, and I think we have a pretty decent background in history/lit. reading and in writing and analysis skills so far in homeschooling. *I* don't have the bigger picture of history/lit. knowledge myself yet, so there is no way I could tackle Omnibus with any success. It's way too heavy for me to even streamline with my ds.

 

But I think, maybe because of my inadequate history/literature background, that the less dense, WTM way of doing history and lit. all the way through, is going to be better, because it will give all of us a layered (over the years) reading background and the mental tools to be able to do something Omnibus-ish later, if we wanted to. Then again, I read through samples of the Omnibus textbook, and honestly, I'd much rather just read a lit. book with the help of analysis tools (like WTM logic stage questions for 7th/8th grade, and WEM for high school) and come up with my own opinions and conclusions, and teach my kids how to do the same, rather than read someone else's opinion of these books. This is the very thing that attracts me to WTM-style history and lit. - that we can read history and lit. books ourselves, ask questions of them ourselves, answer our own questions from the book and from contextualizing the book ourselves, and *then* discuss with others and compare opinions.

 

In my mind, it's like when I went away at age 18 on a two-month mission trip - that summer, I learned for the first time that I could have my *own* relationship with God and learn about Him myself, and not just listen and accept what others told me to believe and how to live for Him.

 

About your upcoming 2nd grader being prepared: from your curric. list, it looks to me like you are preparing him well, skillwise. The reading lists, authors, and topic lists in WTM grammar stage are vast and could keep you busy and contented. I guess I'd say that if you want to do Omnibus in grade 7, you'd have to put some skills which would come later in WTM, down to the lower grades (like lit. analysis skills, maybe vocab, more original lit. instead of some abridged versions, and lots of explaining of things he might not understand). I guess if I had been prepared to do that earlier, my ds would be ready for Omnibus next year. But I was struggling along still trying to understand how to teach some more basic things like how to help him summarize a chapter or even a few paragraphs. You probably just have to figure out if you want your kids to be ready to tackle that in 7th grade, and work backwards from there in your preparation plan. And if you decide you don't want to aim for that, then you can slow down your teacher-education/training and have time to breathe and tend to non-academic parts of your family life? :D

 

I would recommend that you decide what you need as the teacher first, and then what your student needs.

 

:iagree:

 

hth

Edited May 11, 2010 by Colleen in NS

[PeterPan]

If you know you want to do Omnibus, why don't you just do the VP Scholars lessons now? Then you'd be well-prepared when you get to 7th. You might not even want to start in 7th. You might prefer to wait a couple years and then combine several of your kids for better discussion.

[Cleopatra]

Oh, now you're all making me scared! :confused:

 

I'm planning to use Omnibus lightly next year with my dd (6th grade). I have Omnibus I and, while it lines up with our history cycle, I've heard that it's very difficult for a 7th grader. I plan to only cover 1-3 books of the secondary readings, probably from the Chronicles of Narnia. I've looked it over and, with the answers to the questions on the teacher's CD-Rom, I think we'll be okay. It will also let my dd 'get her feet wet' with Omnibus before jumping in. I've heard Omnibus II has a much more manageable reading list so we might try some of these books in grade 7. Based on other posts, I'd probably use the primary readings from Omnibus I when we cycle around in our history again at about grade 9 or 10.

 

I don't think most 7th grade (or 8th, for that matter) children could handle the complete reading list unless they are exceptional, and, if they do, I question how much they actually get out of it. My friend had her 8th grade ds take the Omnibus I class online and while he loved what he was doing, the sheer amount of work and the intensity was too much. I do think that VP expects too much, too soon but their materials are excellent and I want to try to incorporate them somehow!

[PeterPan]

Dyan, I'm doing a year of geography next year (6th) to give us a space before starting O1 in 7th. That way we're not messing up our history cycle and we're not getting into O1 too soon. There have been posts from somebody else here who started O in 6th, and while she was happy, I think by O3 or O4 it really got unwieldy. Also, from comments HeatherinVA has made it seems there's some benefit to waiting and really being able to DO it, with the writing assignments and whatnot.

 

So in any case, that's what we're doing, pausing formal history for a year to do geography with Around the World in 180 Days and a bunch of things. I think it will be good. You pull in lots of history with AW180 anyway, just from a fresh perspective.

[abrightmom]

One other thing that came to mind . . . . after listening to one of SWB's lectures (perhaps the Great Books: History as Literature one?). She said that the books to be read for the Rhetoric Level of Ancient History are HARD while the books read for the Modern Era are easier. But the trick is that the CONTENT in the Modern Era is harder (for discussion and processing) while the CONTENT for Ancients is easier. If SWB thinks those books are hard for a 9th grader (and her suggestion was that some kinds might want to read the Ancient lit even LATER than 9th) then I cannot imagine asking that of my 7th grader . . . At least at this point! :D

 

I do swoon over the *thought* of using VP and Omnibus. But I think I am turning toward walking a different path! I do applaud these Mamas and DC that can DO Omnibus. Wow!!! :D

[Excelsior! Academy]

I have not read the pp, so I have no idea if my advice will agree or disagree. Omnibus was/is something we have considered off and on. I have never seen Omnibus up close, only the sample chapter online. I also have a friend that uses it.

 

I don't believe that even VP uses *all* of the scheduled readings. If you look into certain titles like The Twelve Cesears you will find some tough content. *I* personally would wait until 8th or even 9th to tackle that kind of content or reading.

 

The 3 year cycle, from my understanding, is repeated in depth in years 4-6. So you won't "miss" anything if you wait. Many students do the program earlier, so obviously you can. It just wouldn't work for *my* family.

[johnandtinagilbert]

Just piping in to say I drool over OM, but I just can't work it out in my head b/c of family size. I hate to admit that, but its true. I simply don't have the time to put that much effort into one area b/c I think OM looks like I would really have to work through it. TOG gives *me* the hand holding I need, particularly as it teaches me as I walk through the trivium with my dc. I got a "social studies education", so I'm just now learning all about history. I'm totally capable of learning OM, but I'm just not sure I could handle the workload (if I'm being totally honest). Now, if I had one or two dc....I might look again :) I do *wish* for OM for #2dc...he is a reading machine...it would benefit him, I just can't have one person on a totally different plane. TOG fits the bill for me, though, b/c it is tough and the lit. will really add to our studies in a great way; not to mention the history cores are amazing! I am gonna learn so much! I can't wait! Great thread! Maybe I'll be able to use OM when I only have 2 at home :)

[Mynyel]

WE are going to be doing Omnibus 1 (as soon as I can find it used :)) but I plan on following my own schedule.

That is one of the beauties of homeschooling. So what if VP expects to much, does that mean we have to? I plan on letting my daughter set the pace. She LOVES to read and will read anything. She has read Dickens! She reads all the time, not much else to do around here.

That being said she will read at her own pace and then she talks about her books to me. So I think this program is wonderful for her.

It will be really hard to tell now what your child is going to like in 5 years. My daughter could barely read at that age (I wasn't homeschooling her yet). When she hit 10 she took off in her reading and was the proverbial sponge and still is.

So keep all options open, don't settle yourself on one thing yet, something else may come out that you like better between now and then. *You* may change what how you like to teach between now and then.

We *homeschool* we are not beholden to any curricula or way of teaching! :)

[Janice in NJ]

Janice,

 

I love your input and I especially love that you GRAPPLED with Omnibus in real life. TOG seems like it will help me which IS what I need to be able to carve out a path for my kiddos (and myself :D).

 

Can you tell me if Omnibus emphasizes "Great Books" more than "history" and compare that to TOG (just in a sentence or two will be fine - I thought I'd read this but now I'm not so sure)?

Omnibus uses primary sources to cover history. The program provides a scholarly interpretation of the work and the work itself. A good teacher with a strong background and adequate preparation time can use the two end points to easily fill in the steps to get from one bookend (The essay) back to the other (the primary source). To me the curriculum seems perfect for the teacher who has the background and the time to prepare the lessons.

 

TOG uses some primary sources and some secondary sources to cover history. My kids and I needed to spend more time with secondary sources. We needed to see the historian's process in smaller pieces - how to move through the process of evaluating a group of primary source in order to create a secondary source. What to look for. What questions to ask. Which assumptions are acceptable and which are not. I can much more easily use the TOG materials to uncover those steps. As the teacher, I still have to see those steps, but my prep time is massively reduced. Instead of looking at a creek and trying to figure out WHERE I should put the stones so we can walk across, there are already a TON of stones in the creek. I am free to choose which ones I want to step on for each child. For example when we are learning to think like a historian: We examine how others do it. Then my kids practice doing it. Rinse and repeat at higher levels with higher expectations - some of the steps start to become automatic so we can stop discussing them in detail. BUT no matter which skills we are working on, TOG already has taken the time to place the stones in the creek. No matter what program I am using, that MUST be done in order to teach. Even if the child uses a program independently, they must find those rocks for themselves in order to walk across.

 

Now that I've been at this for a while, I could take a program like Omnibus and figure out how to connect the essay to the primary source reading. I could easily figure out how to turn each of those discussion questions into a stimulating conversation that would force my kids to re-explore their worldview. I regularly turn them upside down and shake out their pockets. They used to get really frustrated with me, but they see the value in it so now they engage more easily - and they are learning to flip me too. Good stuff! BUT I would still not use Omnibus. I do not have the time to sit and explore each issue in order to figure out where I want to put the rocks in order to get from one side of the creek to the other. And for my kids, I've discovered that it is absolutely NOT necessary. They wouldn't walk away with anything more than what they are already getting and it would just be a ton more work for me. I don't have an infinite amount of time. When I say that I'm stepping, I mean it. :001_smile:

 

 

Are you saying that Omnibus, while AWESOME & meaty, was more than you were able to handle teaching at that time? You needed MORE hand holding and help to be able to teach those books, right? You also think that the reading was too much for YOUR kids, right?

Yes, it was more than I was able to handle at the time. I needed more hand holding back then. The reading would have been too much for my kids at the time because they would not have had a good teacher to help them.

 

Now I "could" do it, but other things that I value would have to be set aside. Just as little, little people fill your schedule with things that you must do, so does homeschooling high schoolers. Every single choice means that something else - sometimes a really good choice - must be set aside. So even now even though I could do it, I can say with confidence that I don't even want to. BY necessity every title that you use means that there are hundreds that you are saying "no" to - you must say "no" to in order to proceed. And for us some of them are/were really awesome which meant that the Omnibus choice ended up being not awesome. Wrong books at the wrong time. Awesome for others? Sure. For us. Nope.

 

But please understand that information is completely of NO USE TO YOU. Knowing what works very well for me and mine really does you no good. You'll only have peace about this for you and yours if you go and play around with the Great Books yourself; it's great fun. And you'll figure out which ones are "great" for you AND you'll know why. :001_smile:

 

 

Do you think TOG helps Mom teach writing assignments (or tailor them perhaps) more than Omnibus does? Is Omnibus assuming that Mom KNOWS how to do this or perhaps Mom would have learned how to do this if using VP's recs all along (they use IEW)? Perhaps it's a toss up between the two . . .

I don't know. I used IEW last year with my kids. We had a great year; I learned a lot about writing instruction and my kids learned a bit too. :001_smile: It would still take me a ton of face time to help my kids turn those essay topics into essays. There are so many print-ready materials available with WA. Cuts down the prep. Important for us.

 

 

I am going to read your post again. There are many layers to your thought processes and I always learn something new the second time through. It's kind of like an Agatha Christie novel or movie -- I pick up so much the second run through!!!! Hee hee. :bigear:

 

Have fun! In re-reading this post I realize that folks might get the wrong impression. I don't think the program is a bad program. It just didn't help us move forward. In the beginning I felt bad about that. The printer has done a great job of taking the writers' and the curriculum planners' ideas and making them seem very educational in a very authoritative way. Even the paper seems "smart." But in the end I had to interact with the content. And that was wrong for my entry level as the teacher. Now that I have grown as a teacher, I can say that the books are the wrong books for my kids at those grade levels. And there are not enough teacher helps for the schedule that I am trying to keep. I try to spend the bulk of my time with the history and literature books themselves. I need a curriculum that I can scan in a couple of minutes; I need to be able to quickly spot the outline of a great progression for our lesson. I just don't have any more time than that. I want to devote my time to the actual content and our face time. I need for the middle steps to be pick and choose not ponder from scratch.

 

BUT I recognize that our situation is unique. A teacher who comes to the program with a good education in the humanities and the time to devote to preparation will probably use the program with amazing results.

 

Thank goodness for choices.

 

I hate to sound like a broken record, but really - all you have to do is go and play around with a few of the "great books" yourself. Your path will naturally emerge from that process; it really does bubble up quite naturally. It really is quicker and easier than exploring curriculum that you aren't ready to use right away; in the end it builds more confidence too. (And it's really much more fun that wondering about curriculum. I used to think that I enjoyed that. Now? What a yawner!!!! :001_smile: It reminds me of Pooh and Piglet wandering around that bush. They thought they were discovering someone/something new. In the end they were just looking at their own footprints. :001_smile: )

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

Edited May 11, 2010 by Janice in NJ

[abrightmom]

WE are going to be doing Omnibus 1 (as soon as I can find it used :)) but I plan on following my own schedule.

That is one of the beauties of homeschooling. So what if VP expects to much, does that mean we have to? I plan on letting my daughter set the pace. She LOVES to read and will read anything. She has read Dickens! She reads all the time, not much else to do around here.

That being said she will read at her own pace and then she talks about her books to me. So I think this program is wonderful for her.

It will be really hard to tell now what your child is going to like in 5 years. My daughter could barely read at that age (I wasn't homeschooling her yet). When she hit 10 she took off in her reading and was the proverbial sponge and still is.

So keep all options open, don't settle yourself on one thing yet, something else may come out that you like better between now and then. *You* may change what how you like to teach between now and then.

We *homeschool* we are not beholden to any curricula or way of teaching! :)

 

:lol: Now this IS a wrench in the works of my GREAT scheme . . . I didn't realize one could MODIFY or just pick and choose with Omnibus. I often feel that it is ALL or NOTHING! Another thought IS to use it later . . . just don't start in 7th grade. I will be filing that away in my muddied brain!

[Suzannah]

I bought Omnibus 2 when DS was in 6th grade since it lined-up so well with the WTM recommended readings for 6th grade. That said, I don't exactly DO Omnibus. I DO WTM, but use Omnibus as a guide for our discussion. I have a degree in history and love history so I never really thought about the discussion questions being too difficult for us. I have science-type friends who absolutely LOVE TOG because it has such wonderful teacher's notes and helps them to feel well-informed when discussing history with their kids. I have looked at TOG more than once, even did one of the 3-week trials. It was too much for me. It was all good stuff, but just so much...stuff. If I'd used it from the beginning maybe it would appeal more, but I'm so used to the WTM way of doing history that TOG just didn't fit me.

 

Anyway, in answer to your question, there is a chart in the back of each Omnibus book that shows how Veritas weights it in regard to History, Literature and Theology. A student who does all of the primary and secondary readings in one Omnibus book in one school year at their school will earn 1 credit each in History, Literature and Theology. I think it's safe to say the emphasis is on the Great Books, but by the time you look at each of the selections, it's fairly balanced. The student is studying all three through the Great Books, much as WTM describes in it's section on Rhetoric.

 

Here's what we have done the last two years and probably will do again next year:

 

I go through WTM's suggested reading list and the Omnibus selections and determine which books we will cover over the course of a year. Some books we do an indepth study of (primarily the WTM selections which overlap with Omnibus selections for my convenience.) I use the guide at the back of Omnibus to determine approximately how long the study of a particular book will take (usually between 1-4 weeks.) Some books/selections DS reads more for fun and some I will have him only read the introduction in Omnibus for a brief overview without actually covering the book. In 6th grade I used the editions and retellings recommended in WTM when there was one. This year it hasn't been necessary.

 

DS will then, over the course of the time of study on a given book:

 

read the introduction in Omnibus

discusses questions with me orally

do assigned reading

sometimes copy the "Question to Consider" into a journal for reflection

discuss subsequent questions with me orally

read scripture references where applicable (generally during Bible time)

if there's a comparison chart I like for him to do it

if there's a suggested debate, I have him do it with DH (attorney)

we skip nearly all of the writing assignments

we don't do ALL of the readings

 

I try to have DS write a paragraph or two about each book he's read. We've gotten a little behind but I'll try to have him do it before the end of the year.

 

That is how we use Omnibus to do WTM. This is in addition to WTM history. I think of Omnibus more as literature, but of course it's kind of all the same thing.

 

HTH

[Heather in VA]

I am using Omnibus. I think it's appears far more intimidating than it really is. The books are challenging but they are more doable than you think. I know there is often the TOG vs Omnibus question (in a comparative situation, not as a competition) but I see them as two different approaches. Omnibus is a Great Books study from a Christian worldview. It's goal is teach students to critically analyze things from a Christian perspective by approaching these Great Books and determine what they are saying about various topics, what that says about the author, the time period in which he lived etc and how that compares to what the Bible says about the same topic. TOG is an integrated but more traditional approach to history and literature (and other subjects along side). It has a Christian worldview but it's goal is to see God's providence in history. It uses some Great Books and some "other" books. Both of these are very good options. They are just different. I would recommend looking at it from the perspective of approach rather than trying to decide if you can do it. Both are doable. And things are always more doable if you believe in what you are doing.

 

Heather

[abrightmom]

I am using Omnibus. I think it's appears far more intimidating than it really is. The books are challenging but they are more doable than you think. I know there is often the TOG vs Omnibus question (in a comparative situation, not as a competition) but I see them as two different approaches. Omnibus is a Great Books study from a Christian worldview. It's goal is teach students to critically analyze things from a Christian perspective by approaching these Great Books and determine what they are saying about various topics, what that says about the author, the time period in which he lived etc and how that compares to what the Bible says about the same topic. TOG is an integrated but more traditional approach to history and literature (and other subjects along side). It has a Christian worldview but it's goal is to see God's providence in history. It uses some Great Books and some "other" books. Both of these are very good options. They are just different. I would recommend looking at it from the perspective of approach rather than trying to decide if you can do it. Both are doable. And things are always more doable if you believe in what you are doing.

 

Heather

 

:grouphug: THIS is VERY helpful to me and clarifies the "approach". I have been trying to sort it out . . . Thanks for this "in a nutshell" comparison. This is a sensible piece of advice - to evaluate the approach and determine what appeals or what is most sensible for this family/this child/this season of life. I like that . . .

 

Heather, if Omnibus becomes an approach I am MORE interested in BUT I want to make sure there is plenty of history do you think I'd need to add some? The books used don't seem very much like studying history (as in the people, events, dates, etc.) but more like studying the ideas, thoughts, etc. I see that they recommend that Spielvogel book which frankly is huge and intimidating at this point in my life. I need to read it I suppose. Then maybe I won't feel that way. Do you USE that or do you add in history in some other way? Or do you just use Omni and let it be?? Is your daughter enjoying Omni III? Have you modified it or pared it down in any way or is she able to use it as written?

 

Last question Heather (this is my DH asking :001_smile:): Does the VP elementary history program lay the groundwork for Omnibus? It seems to me that there is a HUGE jump from 6th grade to 7th with VP -- HUGE!!!! I think the elementary history is just fun and super easy to combine multiple kiddos (which I have). I think my guys would need a couple of years in between 6th grade and Omni with Omnibus Lite :D and then some other focus (honing reading and writing skills, applying WTM methods to reading, etc.).

 

Okay . . . one more set. You seem VERY savvy with teaching writing and literature. I am definitely NOT. I want to be and hope that I will grow in these areas over the years. Classical Writing is an example -- it scares me half to death and I'm ready to :auto: in the opposite direction. But it seems like a writing program I would want for my kids. :glare: All that to say -- do you think your particular gifts and skills enable you to effectively teach a program like Omnibus with your daughter? What about the writing assignments? Do you understand how to guide her? Does she have the background or experience needed to tackle those writing assignments?

 

:bigear: and Thank-you.

[simka2]

Can I ask a related question?

 

I'm strugglimg with how to phrase this, but here it goes....:)

 

Is Omnibus a little broader in it's theology? Is get the feeling that TOG is pretty reformed based...so I was wondering if Omni would be more generic christian?

 

Does that make sense? :)

 

Sorry if I hijacked!!!!!!

[Colleen in NS]

The books used don't seem very much like studying history (as in the people, events, dates, etc.) but more like studying the ideas, thoughts, etc. I see that they recommend that Spielvogel book which frankly is huge and intimidating at this point in my life. I need to read it I suppose. Then maybe I won't feel that way.

 

You seem VERY savvy with teaching writing and literature. I am definitely NOT. I want to be and hope that I will grow in these areas over the years. Classical Writing is an example -- it scares me half to death and I'm ready to :auto: in the opposite direction. But it seems like a writing program I would want for my kids. :glare:

 

I know these questions are directed on a particular poster, but I wanted to throw out some encouragement.

 

Spielvogel being intimidating: I looked at some samples once, and felt the exact same way. There are other "history book" options out there, SWB's adult history series being one. Two of the four are out already, and by the time you get there, perhaps the other two will be finished - at least the one, I expect. Then again, I would not use that for my middle grade boy next year. It will wait for high school. The thing I like about her series is it's so...readable! Enjoyable. Funny. Non-intimidating, despite each book's thickness. You could get the two now and start reading through them. They are thick, but unscary.:D

 

Teaching writing and lit.: You are rolling along nicely with WWE? You are good to go for this year. Did you listen to SWB's audios on writing and lit. analysis? They can give you the underpinnings of the long view of teaching writing, and then you can better evaluate different writing programs out there. Again, non-scary, if you learn what to look for - which she will teach you.

 

You WILL grow in these areas over the years, take heart!:D The fact that you are here, asking such detailed questions, tells me that you have a curious mind and won't stop until you understand how things work and what you can apply to your family. You will do just fine, and I say, let the questions keep coming! :D (this coming from a girl whose mother used to say, "Colleen, your questions are driving me crazy!" and a girl who periodically blasts a ton of questions at the high school boardies and gets nicely teased about it :D But my questions get answered. :D)

[SophiaH]

Katrina,

 

You might have seen it already, but this thread might help you with some of your questions.

 

And I'm :lurk5:.

[abrightmom]

Can I ask a related question?

 

I'm strugglimg with how to phrase this, but here it goes....

 

Is Omnibus a little broader in it's theology? Is get the feeling that TOG is pretty reformed based...so I was wondering if Omni would be more generic christian?

 

Does that make sense? :)

 

Sorry if I hijacked!!!!!!

 

I am pretty sure that you will find Veritas Press VERY reformed. Very. :D Take a look at some of the Secondary Literature used and those book titles may shed some light on where they come from. If you disagree with some or all of their views then it's always fodder for invigorating discussion!

 

I know these questions are directed on a particular poster, but I wanted to throw out some encouragement

Spielvogel being intimidating: I looked at some samples once, and felt the exact same way. There are other "history book" options out there, SWB's adult history series being one. Two of the four are out already, and by the time you get there, perhaps the other two will be finished - at least the one, I expect. Then again, I would not use that for my middle grade boy next year. It will wait for high school. The thing I like about her series is it's so...readable! Enjoyable. Funny. Non-intimidating, despite each book's thickness. You could get the two now and start reading through them. They are thick, but unscary. Good point! I do want to read SWB's books and so far I have loved all of her "stuff". I am STILL learning that I can "think outside the box" and "substitute" and "tweak" and "throw the pre made schedule out the window if it suits me" :D.

 

Teaching writing and lit.: You are rolling along nicely with WWE? Yes. This is my plan for now - to just keep rolling with it while dabbling in other methods (more for my education than anything else for now). You are good to go for this year. Did you listen to SWB's audios on writing and lit. analysis? Yes. Love those audios. They have rocked my world some because I am using Phonics Road. But I am happy to be using PR and actually WWE dovetails nicely with it for now. If there comes a point of needing to part ways I'll cross that bridge when I get there. They can give you the underpinnings of the long view of teaching writing, and then you can better evaluate different writing programs out there. Again, non-scary, if you learn what to look for - which she will teach you. I agree completely and that is actually my current plan. I think her logic stage writing curriculum will be available by the time my crew needs it (Yahoo). I suspect I'll end up there. And it would follow after Phonics Road so there will really be no conflict between the two as PR has four levels and will be completed around the start of 5th grade. It's all a rough plan anyway, right?? :D

 

You WILL grow in these areas over the years, take heart!:D The fact that you are here, asking such detailed questions, tells me that you have a curious mind and won't stop until you understand how things work and what you can apply to your family. Yes. It's kind of a curse, don't ya think? I can't rest sometimes . . . I dream about these things. It's an obsession! You will do just fine, and I say, let the questions keep coming! (this coming from a girl whose mother used to say, "Colleen, your questions are driving me crazy!" and a girl who periodically blasts a ton of questions at the high school boardies and gets nicely teased about it But my questions get answered. :D)

 

:grouphug: Thanks Colleen. Actually, a previous post of yours set me to thinking AGAIN (bad bad as the planets re-align when this happens). I was asking my husband, "COULD I or SHOULD I just go for this on my own using WTM as my guide or my TOG if you will? Hmmmmmm."

[abrightmom]

Katrina,

 

You might have seen it already, but this thread might help you with some of your questions.

 

And I'm :lurk5:.

 

I didn't see this one so THANKS! This is great! :D

 

ETA: FANTASTIC thread. This answered several of my questions. Spot On!! Thank-you. I am realizing that no matter what course we take there will be the need to adjust, re-size, re-do, throw out, start over, re-buy, tweak, blend, dump, pitch, use as is, set aside, etc. I find it strange that many of those Moms tweaked Omni A LOT but say they LOVE it and keep using it. That was enlightening! I am actually feeling the dust settle today and I think that no matter what "program" I choose that as long as I am moving forward in history with my kids I'll figure it out as I go. When my child arrives at the next "stage" or "learning level" I'll know what he/she needs and be able to adjust/plan/prepare accordingly.

Edited May 11, 2010 by abrightmom
Update

[prairiegirl]

: Heather, if Omnibus becomes an approach I am MORE interested in BUT I want to make sure there is plenty of history do you think I'd need to add some? The books used don't seem very much like studying history (as in the people, events, dates, etc.) but more like studying the ideas, thoughts, etc.

 

: .

 

Katrina, that is what a Great Books study is: studying the ideas and thoughts of the Masters that have gone before us in the context of history. So you read the books and figure out what these men are trying to tell us about truth, justice and beauty, etc and learn about what was going on in history at the time. As you learn about the context, then you are able to understand why the Great Conversationalists said what they did.

 

A Great Books study is learning philosophy and history all rolled into one. So you have the ideas supplied from the Great Books and then you need a history spine to supply the history aspect of it. Any history spine will do. I think SWB's World history books would do fine but I haven't read them yet so don't quote me on this.

 

I also wanted to say that I started trying to figure out 7th grade history when my oldest was 7 as well. I am so glad that I did. It has taken me 4 years to wrestle with all of the options. She will be going into Gr. 6 this year and I am fairly confident about our plan for Gr. 7. I had to do some re-planning of this current year for everything to work out so I am glad that I started thinking about all of this early. You are doing the right thing in asking questions now. :001_smile:

[Cleopatra]

Dyan, I'm doing a year of geography next year (6th) to give us a space before starting O1 in 7th. That way we're not messing up our history cycle and we're not getting into O1 too soon. There have been posts from somebody else here who started O in 6th, and while she was happy, I think by O3 or O4 it really got unwieldy. Also, from comments HeatherinVA has made it seems there's some benefit to waiting and really being able to DO it, with the writing assignments and whatnot.

 

So in any case, that's what we're doing, pausing formal history for a year to do geography with Around the World in 180 Days and a bunch of things. I think it will be good. You pull in lots of history with AW180 anyway, just from a fresh perspective.

 

Thanks, OhElizabeth! It's always good to have some other options. Do you think your dd will be ready for Homer, etc in 7th grade? My dd is a strong reader and I'd love to try it but I always worry that she will get less out of it than if we waited and did it when she was a little older. I wiffle-waffle back and forth ..... Hmmmm ......... But, of course, I can't wait to use it, hence our plans for secondary books next year. If she does well, we may try O1 primary books the following year, if not, it's time to re-think my plans (I do this often, do you? Hee hee! :001_smile: ) Geography is a great idea though. That way the child knows exactly where to place what they learn!

 

Just some encouragement for all of you moms who are scared by Omnibus ......... I was sure I was completely unable to analyze a book so, in December, I audited a third year course at our local university on C.S. Lewis' writings. At first it was soooooo difficult! I had to read aloud to make sure I was understanding what I was reading and boy, my brain hurt!! But after about three weeks, it started to get easier. I was getting A's on my assignments and in the end I knew the only reason I thought I couldn't analyze a book was because I'd never really tried. So now, when Omnibus intimidates me (as well as excites me) I know if I persevere through it, I will probably be surprised at what I am able to accomplish!:001_smile:

[abrightmom]

Katrina, that is what a Great Books study is: studying the ideas and thoughts of the Masters that have gone before us in the context of history. So you read the books and figure out what these men are trying to tell us about truth, justice and beauty, etc and learn about what was going on in history at the time. As you learn about the context, then you are able to understand why the Great Conversationalists said what they did.

 

A Great Books study is learning philosophy and history all rolled into one. So you have the ideas supplied from the Great Books and then you need a history spine to supply the history aspect of it. Any history spine will do. I think SWB's World history books would do fine but I haven't read them yet so don't quote me on this.

 

I also wanted to say that I started trying to figure out 7th grade history when my oldest was 7 as well. I am so glad that I did. It has taken me 4 years to wrestle with all of the options. She will be going into Gr. 6 this year and I am fairly confident about our plan for Gr. 7. I had to do some re-planning of this current year for everything to work out so I am glad that I started thinking about all of this early. You are doing the right thing in asking questions now. :001_smile:

 

Thanks for this encouragement. I realize I have "time" but I also know that this particular home school path is a challenging one! I want to have the right focus and chart a course. I could "set sail" and just wander awhile but I'd RATHER "chart a course" and head in a particular direction with a destination in mind. If we veer off course along the way or we are stalled for some reason then that is O.K. But, I feel that it is much BETTER to have "direction". I am also an inexperienced navigator and explorer so I need all the help I can get and I need PLENTY of time to prepare. Thanks so much for affirming me in this! It helps a lot . . .

 

So, can you share what your plan is for 7th grade and how you've prepared for it? Do you combine all of your kids at this point and has that worked for you?

 

Just some encouragement for all of you moms who are scared by Omnibus ......... I was sure I was completely unable to analyze a book so, in December, I audited a third year course at our local university on C.S. Lewis' writings. At first it was soooooo difficult! I had to read aloud to make sure I was understanding what I was reading and boy, my brain hurt!! But after about three weeks, it started to get easier. I was getting A's on my assignments and in the end I knew the only reason I thought I couldn't analyze a book was because I'd never really tried. So now, when Omnibus intimidates me (as well as excites me) I know if I persevere through it, I will probably be surprised at what I am able to accomplish!:001_smile:

 

This is AWESOME!! Good for you. Maybe when my littles aren't so little this would be something to tackle! What a great idea and what a boost for you in your journey! Way to go Mama! :001_smile:

Edited May 11, 2010 by abrightmom
Need to add a question

[Suzannah]

I am using Omnibus. I think it's appears far more intimidating than it really is. The books are challenging but they are more doable than you think. I know there is often the TOG vs Omnibus question (in a comparative situation, not as a competition) but I see them as two different approaches. Omnibus is a Great Books study from a Christian worldview. It's goal is teach students to critically analyze things from a Christian perspective by approaching these Great Books and determine what they are saying about various topics, what that says about the author, the time period in which he lived etc and how that compares to what the Bible says about the same topic. TOG is an integrated but more traditional approach to history and literature (and other subjects along side). It has a Christian worldview but it's goal is to see God's providence in history. It uses some Great Books and some "other" books. Both of these are very good options. They are just different. I would recommend looking at it from the perspective of approach rather than trying to decide if you can do it. Both are doable. And things are always more doable if you believe in what you are doing.

 

Heather

 

Very well said. :iagree:

[Tutor]

I have not used either, but I have researched them both for possible use next year with a rising 7th grader and a rising 8th grader and decided that I am going to go with Omnibus, but not next year. I am going to wait a year or two then start.

 

I prefer something with all or mostly primary sources, and I feel that between dh and I we can handle the teaching (plus, we already own most of the books to be read :D ). However, my girls need a bit more transition into primary source interpretation and time to strengthen their writing skills. So next year, I am putting together my own curriculum for them using Sophie's World as a spine but also using Philosophy for Kids and excerpts from primary sources as we go along. We'll wean ourselves slowly onto primary sources over the course of the year... although we may stretch this to two years. We're waiting to see how the girls respond to it. This plan should cover history, literature, and philosophy/ logic. Now I just have to keep my fingers crossed that it works in practice as well as it does in my head. :lol:

[PeterPan]

Well mercy, I have no clue where she'll be a year from now. I'm taking things one step at a time. We've done the VP history, some of their other recs, have always been ahead of the curve on reading, so I don't think that will be an issue. A better question is whether it will INTEREST her. That's what I don't know. But at least I GET what it is now and can make that decision when we get there. I have O1 btw and started reading on it last summer. My tentative goal was to read O2 stuff this summer and get my ducks in a row there. I have been so busy with some other things, I had forgotten! We'll see. I've thought about flexing it and making it fit her a bit more by dropping some (not all, but some) of the writing and bringing in more hands-on to fit her crafty side. We'll see. It might be that the questions they ask aren't what she needs to ponder at that point, the stepping stones Janice talked about. Or it might be it fits her great. I don't know. I know *I* was asking those questions at that age, but that doesn't mean *she* will be.

 

For the hands-on, I have some books of activities by the lady (Heinrich?) of Enrichment4You and I'm considering Konos HOW. I think the Konos HOW plus Omnibus might actually be a really interesting combo for my dd. But she's much more crafty than the average bear. Maybe most people don't need that. :)

[johnandtinagilbert]

I have not used either, but I have researched them both for possible use next year with a rising 7th grader and a rising 8th grader and decided that I am going to go with Omnibus, but not next year. I am going to wait a year or two then start.

 

I prefer something with all or mostly primary sources, and I feel that between dh and I we can handle the teaching (plus, we already own most of the books to be read :D ). However, my girls need a bit more transition into primary source interpretation and time to strengthen their writing skills. So next year, I am putting together my own curriculum for them using Sophie's World as a spine but also using Philosophy for Kids and excerpts from primary sources as we go along. We'll wean ourselves slowly onto primary sources over the course of the year... although we may stretch this to two years. We're waiting to see how the girls respond to it. This plan should cover history, literature, and philosophy/ logic. Now I just have to keep my fingers crossed that it works in practice as well as it does in my head. :lol:

This is something I was contemplating, as well; however *I* also need the transition :blushing: I'm really at a wait and see on what I'll use then, but I imagine either TOG or OM.

 

Heather in VA...great post. Thank you for reminding me of how much I can accomplish when I go the direction I *should* go.

[abrightmom]

This is something I was contemplating, as well; however *I* also need the transition :blushing: I'm really at a wait and see on what I'll use then, but I imagine either TOG or OM.

 

Heather in VA...great post. Thank you for reminding me of how much I can accomplish when I go the direction I *should* go.

Tina, can you clarify? Do you have a kiddo that TOG isn't a good fit for? Who are you in a "wait and see" mode with? When you say OM are you referring to Oak Meadow or to Omnibus? :D I am confused and also curious!!

 

Please elaborate!!

[Suzannah]

Heather, if Omnibus becomes an approach I am MORE interested in BUT I want to make sure there is plenty of history do you think I'd need to add some? The books used don't seem very much like studying history (as in the people, events, dates, etc.) but more like studying the ideas, thoughts, etc. I see that they recommend that Spielvogel book which frankly is huge and intimidating at this point in my life.

 

I'll jump in here and give my perspective. I fully intend to purchase the Spielvogel at some point. But right now I have a bookshelf full of my college history texts in addition to Usborne, Kingfisher and Story of the World. We do the WTM approach to history, reading SOTW as a family, then while DD does her coloring page and narration, DS is reading Kingfisher and whatever relevant books we've picked up from the library (History of US, etc.) and doing his logic stage work.

 

You are correct, some of the readings are just helping to better understand the ideas, people and times. But some are primary sources. This year DS read Of Plimouth Plantation, a journal by William Bradford, one of the original Plymouth settlers. He read "Founding Documents" which was the Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation, Constitution and Bill of Rights as well as excerpts from the Federalist and Antifederalist papers and the Autobiographpy of Benjamin Franklin. These are history--primary sources--written by the people who made the history and shaped our government.

 

I just asked DS if he enjoys Omnibus. He laughed and said "For a school subject, yes." Clearly he would rather play video games all day, but he does enjoy history and reading and this approach has been very doable for us both.

 

Last question Heather (this is my DH asking :001_smile:): Does the VP elementary history program lay the groundwork for Omnibus? It seems to me that there is a HUGE jump from 6th grade to 7th with VP -- HUGE!!!!

 

I don't really know. I've never used VP's lower level history, although I do refer to their catalog for book suggestions. We've done WTM (with SOTW) straight through since first grade (Five in a Row for pre-school and kindergarten.) Yes, Omni is meaty enough for high school or even college level work. But a well-read student who has attained the logic stage of development can discuss the readings with a parent with no problem.

 

If you have the opportunity to look through an actual copy of the book I think it will put a lot of your fears at ease. But if it's not right for you, don't feel like a failure or like it has anything at all to do with your ability to teach. I fell in love with the format when I first saw it and it's a great fit for my family. A close friend fell in love with TOG and it's a great fit for her family. Neither of us thinks we could manage the other, but it doesn't matter. We're doing what works for us.

 

And it's great to have a goal in mind, but if you decide when you get to 6th grade that what you had been planning to do isn't going to work, that's o.k. too. Both of these programs will guide you and your students into the rhetoric stage.

[Cleopatra]

I prefer something with all or mostly primary sources, and I feel that between dh and I we can handle the teaching (plus, we already own most of the books to be read :D ). However, my girls need a bit more transition into primary source interpretation and time to strengthen their writing skills. So next year, I am putting together my own curriculum for them using Sophie's World as a spine but also using Philosophy for Kids and excerpts from primary sources as we go along. We'll wean ourselves slowly onto primary sources over the course of the year... although we may stretch this to two years. We're waiting to see how the girls respond to it. This plan should cover history, literature, and philosophy/ logic. Now I just have to keep my fingers crossed that it works in practice as well as it does in my head. :lol:

 

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about Sophie's World! Thanks for the unintentional reminder! ;)

 

Have you seen these chapter outlines for Sophie's World? http://67.104.146.36/general_studies/philosophy/indexSW/swindex.html I don't know if they'll help you but I thought I'd send the link, just in case! :001_smile: Happy curriculum planning!

[abrightmom]

I'll jump in here and give my perspective. I fully intend to purchase the Spielvogel at some point. But right now I have a bookshelf full of my college history texts in addition to Usborne, Kingfisher and Story of the World. We do the WTM approach to history, reading SOTW as a family, then while DD does her coloring page and narration, DS is reading Kingfisher and whatever relevant books we've picked up from the library (History of US, etc.) and doing his logic stage work.

 

You are correct, some of the readings are just helping to better understand the ideas, people and times. But some are primary sources. This year DS read Of Plimouth Plantation, a journal by William Bradford, one of the original Plymouth settlers. He read "Founding Documents" which was the Declaration of Independence, Articles of Confederation, Constitution and Bill of Rights as well as excerpts from the Federalist and Antifederalist papers and the Autobiographpy of Benjamin Franklin. These are history--primary sources--written by the people who made the history and shaped our government.

 

I just asked DS if he enjoys Omnibus. He laughed and said "For a school subject, yes." Clearly he would rather play video games all day, but he does enjoy history and reading and this approach has been very doable for us both.

 

 

 

I don't really know. I've never used VP's lower level history, although I do refer to their catalog for book suggestions. We've done WTM (with SOTW) straight through since first grade (Five in a Row for pre-school and kindergarten.) Yes, Omni is meaty enough for high school or even college level work. But a well-read student who has attained the logic stage of development can discuss the readings with a parent with no problem.

 

If you have the opportunity to look through an actual copy of the book I think it will put a lot of your fears at ease. But if it's not right for you, don't feel like a failure or like it has anything at all to do with your ability to teach. I fell in love with the format when I first saw it and it's a great fit for my family. A close friend fell in love with TOG and it's a great fit for her family. Neither of us thinks we could manage the other, but it doesn't matter. We're doing what works for us.

 

And it's great to have a goal in mind, but if you decide when you get to 6th grade that what you had been planning to do isn't going to work, that's o.k. too. Both of these programs will guide you and your students into the rhetoric stage.

 

:001_smile: I didn't realize that those original sources were used . . . somehow I missed that OR it isn't all laid out in the catalog. DH has a great admiration for William Bradford and says now that if we have another son he will be named William Bradford B**** :D Perhaps I need to haunt the boards for a used O1 and then use it myself. I love to read, learn and be challenged. Your explanation has been very helpful . . .

[johnandtinagilbert]

Tina, can you clarify? Do you have a kiddo that TOG isn't a good fit for? Who are you in a "wait and see" mode with? When you say OM are you referring to Oak Meadow or to Omnibus? :D I am confused and also curious!!

 

Please elaborate!!

OM= Omnibus.....sorry :)

 

I have a dc who can read all day long and be in pure joy....a perfect fit for a great books study vs. a great history/lit study. Like Heather said, different approaches.

 

My wait and see if for me to go through a few years of TOG, a few great books with a lil' more hand holding, then see if he and I are both ready to tackle the great books. I'm hoping he'll be in 10th or 11th grade. We'll see...I've got a few years of growth...my whole bunch does :)

[abrightmom]

OM= Omnibus.....sorry :)

 

I have a dc who can read all day long and be in pure joy....a perfect fit for a great books study vs. a great history/lit study. Like Heather said, different approaches.

 

My wait and see if for me to go through a few years of TOG, a few great books with a lil' more hand holding, then see if he and I are both ready to tackle the great books. I'm hoping he'll be in 10th or 11th grade. We'll see...I've got a few years of growth...my whole bunch does :)

Thanks . . .that helps! Now I understand. :001_smile:

[Colleen in NS]

:grouphug: Thanks Colleen.

 

Who's obsessing?? Who's dreaming about these things??:lol: Yep, I do this every single time I am on a new learning curve (at least once a month). A couple of weeks ago, it was "physics first, or not?" Last week it was "where is the important discoveries list my kids were supposed to memorize in grammar stage?? Why did I never notice that before??" (I think I have found it - waiting for a library book) This week, I'll be looking more closely at a physics lab book for high school, trying to get a better overview in my mind. Trying to get rid of the scariness.:D

[abrightmom]

Who's obsessing?? Who's dreaming about these things??:lol: Yep, I do this every single time I am on a new learning curve (at least once a month). A couple of weeks ago, it was "physics first, or not?" Last week it was "where is the important discoveries list my kids were supposed to memorize in grammar stage?? Why did I never notice that before??" (I think I have found it - waiting for a library book) This week, I'll be looking more closely at a physics lab book for high school, trying to get a better overview in my mind. Trying to get rid of the scariness.:D

 

:lol::lol::lol::lol: I am SO adding the word "scariness" to Katrina's Dictionary. I do so love that word. I actually laughed out loud just now when I read that. Although, now I feel sad because I realize the obsessing is here to stay (and the dreaming and the planets re-aligning and all that). I need to go read the Well Trained Mind again because I don't know anything about the important discoveries list. :lol: Every read through brings more understanding!

[Rhondabee]

I hate to sound like a broken record, but really - all you have to do is go and play around with a few of the "great books" yourself. Your path will naturally emerge from that process; it really does bubble up quite naturally. It really is quicker and easier than exploring curriculum that you aren't ready to use right away; in the end it builds more confidence too.

 

 

So, true, Janice!

 

I think this is why there is always a plethora of "Please list your favorite/easiest to read Ancient books for 9th grade" every year, but comparatively few requests for such lists of Middle Ages/Renaissance books for 10th grade. Once you sit down with the Iliad (esp. Fagle's - and esp. with if you read-along with the audio book), you realize it's not *that* hard. And it *is* fun! My DS (who is so *not* an academic-type kid) still laughs at Sophocles' Agamemnon of all things (Greek tragedy in which the chorus states emphatically: "You can't kill us; we're the chorus! It's against the rules.") And, after surviving Ancients you know that even *with* a list of "the best of the best" - you still have to read it for yourself.

 

Yes, translation matters - but we haven't been disappointed by SWB's picks, yet!

Edited May 11, 2010 by Rhondabee

[abrightmom]

So, true, Janice!

 

I think this is why there is always a plethora of "Please list your favorite/easiest to read Ancient books for 9th grade" every year, but comparatively few requests for such lists of Middle Ages/Renaissance books for 10th grade. Once you sit down with the Iliad (esp. Fagle's - and esp. with if you read-along with the audio book), you realize it's not *that* hard. And it *is* fun! My DS (who is so *not* an academic-type kid) still laughs at Sophocles' Agamemnon of all things (Greek tragedy in which the chorus states emphatically: "You can't kill us; we're the chorus!") And, so you know that even *with* a list of "the best of the best" - you still have to read it your self.

 

Yes, translation matters - but we haven't been disappointed by SWB's picks, yet!

 

Thank-you for this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

[Rhondabee]

Thank-you for this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :)

 

No prob!

 

One quick hint - sorry if this has been mentioned - I don't have a mouse to quickly peruse all the posts: TOG uses historical fiction in its dialectic (middle school) level. WTM uses actual literature (sometimes abridged/adapted) written during the time period. Big difference! To me, the real literature wins every time.

 

ETA: Please see my post below. I stand corrected - It seems TOG uses more actual lit now than when I was choosing for my oldest.

 

For the record, true confession time: My oldest was WTM'd from 5th - 9th, but next year all 3 kids will be doing My Father's World. I am working part-time and need all the planning help I can get. *BUT* My Father's World allows me to keep Classical Literature from the time period - they have their own list by grade level - or I can use the books I already have here from WTM for my 7th grader. (10th grader will have his literature all pre-planned with daily assignments, while 7th grader's will be flexible enough to meet him where he is - a list of book and "read for x-minutes a day" type of assignment like that in WTM that I love.)

 

Anyway, WHO KNOWS what will be available when you're ready for middle school - much less high school?!?!?! I bet we'll all be jealous! ;)

Edited May 12, 2010 by Rhondabee

[Tutor]

Ah yes, I'd forgotten about Sophie's World! Thanks for the unintentional reminder! ;)

 

Have you seen these chapter outlines for Sophie's World? http://67.104.146.36/general_studies/philosophy/indexSW/swindex.html I don't know if they'll help you but I thought I'd send the link, just in case! :001_smile: Happy curriculum planning!

 

Yes, I did see these... and boy am I glad they are there. I've been using them as a filter to make sure I don't forget anything. Thanks!

[TracyP]

 

One quick hint - sorry if this has been mentioned - I don't have a mouse to quickly peruse all the posts: TOG uses historical fiction in its dialectic (middle school) level. WTM uses actual literature (sometimes abridged/adapted) written during the time period. Big difference! To me, the real literature wins every time.

 

;)

 

Can you (or someone) elaborate on the difference between TOG lit and WTM lit that you are talking about? The library has my copy of TWTM :lol: but I thought the lit looked very similar. I'm peeking through my TOG here and these seem to be adapted works from this time period (year2). But honestly I don't know lit well enough to be sure.

[Colleen in NS]

Although, now I feel sad because I realize the obsessing is here to stay

 

Oh no, don't be sad - this new obsession will add interest to your life. Just when you think you have something figured out, something new will jump out at you and you'll just have to follow that rabbit trail until you figure THAT out. It's fun! Really!:lol::lol:

 

I think this is why there is always a plethora of "Please list your favorite/easiest to read Ancient books for 9th grade" every year, but comparatively few requests for such lists of Middle Ages/Renaissance books for 10th grade. Once you sit down with the Iliad (esp. Fagle's - and esp. with if you read-along with the audio book), you realize it's not *that* hard. And it *is* fun!

 

Rhonda, this encourages me for high school!!!

 

TOG uses historical fiction in its dialectic (middle school) level. WTM uses actual literature (sometimes abridged/adapted) written during the time period.

 

Huh, I didn't know that! I definitely prefer to emphasize actual lit. and use historical fiction as supplemental.

[abrightmom]

Can you (or someone) elaborate on the difference between TOG lit and WTM lit that you are talking about? The library has my copy of TWTM :lol: but I thought the lit looked very similar. I'm peeking through my TOG here and these seem to be adapted works from this time period (year2). But honestly I don't know lit well enough to be sure.

 

 

:lurk5::bigear: I'd like to hear more as well . . .

[prairiegirl]

So, can you share what your plan is for 7th grade and how you've prepared for it? Do you combine all of your kids at this point and has that worked for you?

 

 

 

:

 

My plan is to use the book suggestions at the back of David Hicks' book 'Norms and Nobility. This list is similar to Ambleside Online's Yr. 7 list, so I will be interchanging between the two lists. I will also be using TruthQuest for the worldview aspect. This is my first time doing this so I need as much handholding as I can get. TQ does handholding well. We will be doing WTM suggestions for timeline, outlining and notebook (writing summaries about the various areas--wars, inventtions, architecture, etc.)

 

The only thing that I am not 100% sure about is my spine. N&N recommends Churchill's Birth of Britain book but I am not sure if I want to use this. I was thinking about Guerber's Story of the Middle Ages but I dont' think that is meaty enough. I might just go with Dorothy Miller's Middle Ages book (if I can find it.)

 

My preparation for Gr. 7 was more with our history cycle more than anything else. We have kept with the 4 yr. history cycle. In my oldest's Gr. 5 year, we would be starting over with Ancients. AO and N&N have the MIddle Ages as their time period for Gr. 7. If I continue to follow our history cycle, then we would be doing MIddle Ages two years in a row, so I had to figure out how I was going to handle this. We ended up going on unit study rabbit trails for this year (my dd's Gr. 5 year) and will be starting with Ancients next year. This is why I think it is good to plan ahead. If I had decided to use N&N only this year, it would have messed up our history cycle. I know this wouldn't really bother anyone else but it bothers my ocd tendencies.

 

Another thing I have done in preparation this year, is to start more literaray discusssions. This is very painful for me. I am a thinker, not a talker. I have started talking more about the ideas and themes of the books that we have read to get my dd thinking more along this line for when we start the Great Books.

 

Prior to this coming year, I have done everyone together. This coming year, though, we will be doing the same time period but using different spines. My 9 & 7 yr. olds will be using SOTW and my oldest (soon to be 11) will be using TQ I am not sure how this is going to work out. Ask me next year at this time. :D

Edited May 12, 2010 by prairiegirl

[abrightmom]

My plan is to use the book suggestions at the back of David Hicks' book 'Norms and Nobility. This list is similar to Ambleside Online's Yr. 7 list, so I will be interchanging between the two lists. I will also be using TruthQuest for the worldview aspect. This is my first time doing this so I need as much handholding as I can get. TQ does handholding well. We will be doing WTM suggestions for timeline, outlining and notebook (writing summaries about the various areas--wars, inventtions, architecture, etc.)

 

The only thing that I am not 100% sure about is my spine. N&N recommends Churchill's Birth of Britain book but I am not sure if I want to use this. I was thinking about Guerber's Story of the Middle Ages but I dont' think that is meaty enough. I might just go with Dorothy Miller's Middle Ages book (if I can find it.)

 

My preparation for Gr. 7 was more with our history cycle more than anything else. We have kept with the 4 yr. history cycle. In my oldest's Gr. 5 year, we would be starting over with Ancients. AO and N&N have the MIddle Ages as their time period for Gr. 7. If I continue to follow our history cycle, then we would be doing MIddle Ages two years in a row, so I had to figure out how I was going to handle this. We ended up going on unit study rabbit trails for this year (my dd's Gr. 5 year) and will be starting with Ancients next year. This is why I think it is good to plan ahead. If I had decided to use N&N only this year, it would have messed up our history cycle. I know this wouldn't really bother anyone else but it bothers my ocd tendencies.

 

Another thing I have done in preparation this year, is to start more literaray discusssions. This is very painful for me. I am a thinker, not a talker. I have started talking more about the ideas and themes of the books that we have read to get my dd thinking more along this line for when we start the Great Books.

 

Prior to this coming year, I have done everyone together. This coming year, though, we will be doing the same time period but using different spines. My 9 & 7 yr. olds will be using SOTW and my oldest (soon to be 11) will be using TQ I am not sure how this is going to work out. Ask me next year at this time. :D

 

This is fantastic! Great job thinking everything through and preparing for the next stage in your DD's schooling. Thank-you for sharing!:001_smile:

[Rhondabee]

:lurk5::bigear: I'd like to hear more as well . . .

 

I will get to this - but it may take a few days. I am working, and have doctor's appointments the next few days as well.

[mom22greatkids]

Thanks Rhondabee for taking your time to do this. Even though I am not new to the board, I have not posted very much in the past. I was more of a lurker. I, too, am pressed for time even with only two children. Soooo..., I really appreciate everyone's imput into the conversations!

 

Susan