Seriously Ticked, Need Help, Grade 7

[Impish]

I hate to even type this, because I'm admitting defeat, and don't want to.

 

TOG is not working for Diva. I don't know WHY, I just know it isn't. I *love* the program. She doesn't. I realize there's got to be something I missed somewhere to have her excited by it, but reality of it is, it just isn't working.

 

I'm tempted to keep plugging away because its everything I've been wanting in a curric...all the different levels, the all encapsulated delivery...But if I can't figure out how to get her wanting to do the work, if I can't figure out how to make her interested...then what good is it doing? Argh!

 

So, anyways...I'm thinking of MCT and SOTW. Problems, however, abound.

 

 

 

1. I'm not sure which MCT package to buy. She's starting grade 7.
   
2. I remember correctly, SOTW is aimed at a bit lower kids. How do I make things more interesting/challenging for her?
   
3. I screwed up last year. I purchased SOTW 2 and the activity pages. Not thinking, I simply gave Diva the pages to work on. So now, I'm missing probably a dozen pages of the activity book. No, I was too stupid to photocopy, despite being allowed to make copies for the children in my home. And Princess and Tazzie will be following along, so will want to do the pages. Anyone know of how I can just get the missing pages I need, aside from having to buy the entire activity book again?
   

 

I want to do TOG, so I may take another run at it another year. I'm sure its *my* screw up that Diva didn't like it. Pretty sure I messed it up, so I'll try it again when the Littles are older.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Impish

[StartingOver]

You can buy just the Student (Activity) pages in PDF from Peace Hill Press ( TWTM store ). It is much cheaper than the activity guide.

[Impish]

Excellent, thanks!

 

Anyone have answers for the other questions?

[MerryAtHope]

Do you know what it is that she doesn't like about doing TOG? I think in order to figure out how to make another program (or possibly even TOG) more interesting to her, that you need to be able to identify what's not working. Is it the reading--does she not enjoy the books? If so, what about them? What style of books would she enjoy more? etc... If it's the writing, could she do more orally? Could she do more hands on type projects? etc... Simply knowing that she doesn't like it or isn't interested probably doesn't give you enough information to make the kinds of helpful changes you want.

 

I wouldn't blame yourself over this though, kids are all different, and they are going to like different things. Sometimes I really don't make whether they like it or not the top deciding factor in whether we use something either. I do like to cater to their learning styles and their preferences, but it's not always practical/workable--that might be something to weigh out too. But first I think you need to figure out why it's not working.

 

HTH, Merry :-)

[PeterPan]

Oh the joys of a well-written textbook. I urge all history lovers to desist in attempting to make everyone else love it. Some of us just don't. Give us a textbook and move on. Watched a mom at the convention ram a SL history core down the throat of her poor girl, saying how much she'd love it as the girl pleaded and pleaded to be released from the torture of reading historical fiction. Have we never heard of science fiction, brit lit, anything else??

 

I recommend BJU history for history haters (used it in a school a few years myself, tolerated it, learned from it), but History Odyssey would work if you need secular. Straightforward, in and out, clear expectations, no dawdling or trying to enjoy. :)

 

Looked at MCT at the convention and decided it was the end of the road there for us, not continuing on past CE2. But that's just us.

[frankcassiesmom]

Do you know what it is that she doesn't like about doing TOG? I think in order to figure out how to make another program (or possibly even TOG) more interesting to her, that you need to be able to identify what's not working. Is it the reading--does she not enjoy the books? If so, what about them? What style of books would she enjoy more? etc... If it's the writing, could she do more orally? Could she do more hands on type projects? etc... Simply knowing that she doesn't like it or isn't interested probably doesn't give you enough information to make the kinds of helpful changes you want.

 

 

:iagree:

[MIch elle]

SOTW tests, Biblioplan and/or Biblioplan Cool History along with SOTW & AG?

 

You may want to consider doing SOTW 2 & 3 in grade 7 and then do SOTW 4 in grade 8 so your dd has an overview of world history before entering high school.

[Melissa in CA]

Oh the joys of a well-written textbook. I urge all history lovers to desist in attempting to make everyone else love it. Some of us just don't. Give us a textbook and move on. Watched a mom at the convention ram a SL history core down the throat of her poor girl, saying how much she'd love it as the girl pleaded and pleaded to be released from the torture of reading historical fiction. Have we never heard of science fiction, brit lit, anything else??

 

I recommend BJU history for history haters (used it in a school a few years myself, tolerated it, learned from it), but History Odyssey would work if you need secular. Straightforward, in and out, clear expectations, no dawdling or trying to enjoy. :)

 

Looked at MCT at the convention and decided it was the end of the road there for us, not continuing on past CE2. But that's just us.

 

I agree with Elizabeth and Merry. :D

 

Perhaps your dd is not a history lover? Also, TOG can be overwhelming, especially if you are making her do it all...meaning assigning every question, etc. If I made my ds answer every question, he would dislike TOG too. He likes history, but not so much that he wants to dissect/learn/retain every little facet of it. To answer all of the various questions would be tedious for him. Also, TOG uses more non-fiction to teach with, it is more fact-oriented, opposed to SL which uses a lot of historical fiction. Maybe she would prefer more fiction to flesh out her history, less non fiction.

 

Or, as Elizabeth mentioned, perhaps you need to let her try a to-the-point History text. BJU is excellent for that, and is still interesting. She will only have to read/learn what is considered important in history without all the extras tidbits of info a whole-book approach to history brings into the mix. Some children really do thrive on that more so than a TOG type curriculum. There are a lot of history professors who learned and earned their degree from a textbook approach. We homeschoolers can get quite uppity in our opinions on what is the 'best' curriculum for such n such. :tongue_smilie:

 

I would say that if your dd is not enjoying history with TOG, then perhaps a change is in order. Either change the way you are doing TOG, or change your approach entirely. But, be warned, if your dd just does not like history on a whole...she may not enjoy any curriculum you provide her. That's when you must ignore the complaints and forge ahead. ;)

[Impish]

I don't think its the history. I think that its just such a massive binder (1 of 4, course :lol:) that she decided then and there that it wasn't gonna fly :banghead:

 

I think I screwed up in not being as 'hands on' with her learning as I should have been. I thought that she wanted her independance, that she didn't want Mom explaining everything to death, just give me the list and leave me alone.

 

Turns out (and after 3 yrs of homeschooling I'm discovering this now...where the heck have I been?) that Diva WANTS me explaining everything. Not because she can't do it, but simply for the attention. *sigh*

 

I'm thinking of doing SOTW, MLC, and her Saxon math next year. It'll be lighter in some senses, but requiring more from me...what I should have done in the first danged place. I think if I bulldoze ahead and get TOG2, she'll simply balk straight off. I think a year or so off of TOG, and then reintroducing it may be the way to go.

 

"Mommy screwed up, Sweetie. Sorry about that."

[Melabella]

Looked at MCT at the convention and decided it was the end of the road there for us, not continuing on past CE2. But that's just us.

 

I really don't want to hijack this thread...but, I'm curious why you decided not to continue with MCT, OhElizabeth. You can PM me if you prefer.

 

To impish - I think taking a break from TOG and using SOTW is a good plan. However, I would be sure to add lots of supplemental reading (historical fiction and non-fiction) throughout the year. TWTM has a reading list for logic stage history by year. You could also have her do a research paper on a particular historical event or person from the time period you are studying.

[5LittleMonkeys]

I remember correctly, SOTW is aimed at a bit lower kids. How do I make things more interesting/challenging for her?

 

I don't know if anyone answered this for you yet and I am by no means expert but this is what I do for my dd1st, dd5th and dd6th.

 

I read from SOTW outloud to all then:

 

DD1st will either color the activity coloring page or draw her own picture while I am reading. We do the map together and I will then answer review questions and do narration. I will have 2 to 3 books from the library that are at her comprehension level that we will read during the week but not necessarily during history time. We will try to do atleast 1 project per chapter so will spend about 15 minutes working on that with completion of the project on Thursday.

 

DD5th and DD6th write a summary of what we've read from SOTW and do their own mapwork (I supplement theirs with labeling additional areas, towns, routes etc.) while I work with dd1st. Then they will begin reading through the KFH selection. When I am done with DD1st I sit with them while they outline KFH then we have a few discussions about different aspects of the info. I ask them to read 1 historical fiction for the time period we are working in. For example we are doing Ancient Greece right now so they are reading Theras and His Town. They usually take 1 to 2 weeks to read through this. I also require them to read through 2 to 3 other books from the additional reading list per week and I ask dd5th to tell me 3 new things she learned from each book whereas I have my dd6th write the same info into a 3 paragraph summary. My dd5th will usually do the project with the dd1st.

 

That's about it except if I happen across a really good literature pick from the time period we are doing then I will do a read aloud. Right now we are reading Black Ships. I will also try to find documentaries or movies to go with it too but we watch those at night with daddy.

 

My dd6th doesn't like history so this is about all I can get her to do without complaints. I find for the subjects she doesn't like I have to do a lot of hand holding to make it tolerable for her. She will read the historical fiction on her own but usually wants me to sit with her while she reads the other books and writes her 3 paragraphs. It's our discussions that keep her motivated to continue on.

 

Hope that is the type of info you were looking for.

[OnTheBrink]

Oh the joys of a well-written textbook. I urge all history lovers to desist in attempting to make everyone else love it. Some of us just don't. Give us a textbook and move on. Watched a mom at the convention ram a SL history core down the throat of her poor girl, saying how much she'd love it as the girl pleaded and pleaded to be released from the torture of reading historical fiction. Have we never heard of science fiction, brit lit, anything else??

 

I recommend BJU history for history haters (used it in a school a few years myself, tolerated it, learned from it), but History Odyssey would work if you need secular. Straightforward, in and out, clear expectations, no dawdling or trying to enjoy. :)

Looked at MCT at the convention and decided it was the end of the road there for us, not continuing on past CE2. But that's just us.

 

I think I love you. I wish I'd heard this said years ago!

 

I thought for so long that there was something wrong with me because my dd hated historical fiction or any lit based history course. She is delighted at the idea of a text book for next year!

 

That said, I do think TOG is a good program; just not for us.

[PeterPan]

Hehe, that's why I bring it up! My dd is a history lover, so I've seen both sides of it. People who LIKE history have a hard time getting how incomprehensible, vague, open-ended, and frustrating it is to history haters. We might as well sit around all day trying to draw a picture of infinity as to ever wrap our brains around it. We need flow charts, clear, concise expectations, study guides with term lists, multi-line timelines that allow you to plot several things at once and see relationships. History haters can't see the big picture, so all those details just get muddled and jumbled. History lovers are just the opposite, with brains that take all those details and start forming narratives and making connections.

 

So good for you to take the plunge with a textbook. They're really good for some people! The VP cards are good at the lower level too, because they give you a concise framework. It's honestly about the only history I understand, mainly because it gives you such a clear frame. All through school nobody managed to make it click in my brain that anything was CONCURRENT. It was just thousands of unending years of trivial events to try to memorize, ack! If you really MUST do literature-driven history, I would cover all the VP cards in 1-3 years (we're talking an older student here). That way they'd have something very concrete to hang it on and very concrete expectations of what they were to retain from it. (The VP card worksheets have 5-6 questions each, so the expectations are right there, no vagueness.)

[Melissa in CA]

What SOTW level are you thinking of using with your 7th grader?

 

I don't know...I think I am probably the minority here...but I personally think SOTW 1 & 2 are both much too young for 7th grade. :confused: We used these when my ds was in 2nd and 3rd...and they were perfect for him. I wouldn't even consider using them in 7th, not when there are more age-appropriate books out there. But, that's just me. Call me weird. :tongue_smilie::lol:

[Melissa in CA]

*double post glitch*

Edited April 13, 2010 by Melissa in CA

[Melissa in CA]

I don't think its the history. I think that its just such a massive binder (1 of 4, course :lol:) that she decided then and there that it wasn't gonna fly :banghead:

 

I think I screwed up in not being as 'hands on' with her learning as I should have been. I thought that she wanted her independance, that she didn't want Mom explaining everything to death, just give me the list and leave me alone.

 

Turns out (and after 3 yrs of homeschooling I'm discovering this now...where the heck have I been?) that Diva WANTS me explaining everything. Not because she can't do it, but simply for the attention. *sigh*

 

I'm thinking of doing SOTW, MLC, and her Saxon math next year. It'll be lighter in some senses, but requiring more from me...what I should have done in the first danged place. I think if I bulldoze ahead and get TOG2, she'll simply balk straight off. I think a year or so off of TOG, and then reintroducing it may be the way to go.

 

"Mommy screwed up, Sweetie. Sorry about that."

 

I just wanted to add that many people use TOG kind of like they do SL. They read the history selections WITH their child...outloud...and then discuss (my ds and I do this with the worldview books). She'd gets lot of attention, and you'd have great discussions. Just a thought. :001_smile:

[Pongo]

I'm sure its *my* screw up that Diva didn't like it. Pretty sure I messed it up, so I'll try it again when the Littles are older.

 

You shouldn't be so hard on yourself. I used TOG for almost 4 years, my oldest didn't like it, I did. She thought the Literature selections were dry:), I though informative. We have been doing BP with the lit suggestions and to supplement my voracious readers I pull books from ATTA. Its been a great

2nd half of the year. We have been able to make up a ton of ground, covering two weeks every one week. We do the Cool History Pages and the timeline. I play the SOTW on audio as they answer the questions. My ds said, I never knew History was so interesting:001_huh:,I guess he wasn't listening to the TOG books either. It seems they just want the "bones" No digging deeper, just give me the good stuff and lets move on.

Edited April 12, 2010 by Pongo

[Tracy]

I wouldn't give up TOG just yet. I agree that you are going to have to figure out what exactly she doesn't like. But it sounds like, for starters, she is overwhelmed by the binder. So get rid of the binder (for now, at least). I would tell her that you are going to do history differently and then use SOTW as a spine for TOG (but don't tell her that you are still using TOG). Read SOTW with her and then use TOG for activities. Work on a timeline. I would just do that for a couple of weeks to see how she takes to it. If it goes well, I would then see about gradually adding in literature readings, mapping, writing, etc.

 

When I read about how your dd wanted things explained to her, I imagined a child that wanted to interact and share her experience with you. I don't know if that was correct or not. But if so, then maybe history will be more enjoyable for her if it is a special time with you. Just a thought.

 

Tracy

[lovemykids]

Oh my, it sounds like OM might be a strong contender in this case. But there is snothing wrong with SOTW if your dd likes it. OM has plenty of hands on, the students have choices in assignments; the history is well done but not overwhelming.

Sonlight *did transform my history hater into a history literature lover, so it never hurts to try. Or you could try OM but add in historical fiction books from SL. There are plenty of options; I hope you find the one that works for your dd. :)

[MariannNOVA]

I hate to even type this, because I'm admitting defeat, and don't want to.

 

TOG is not working for Diva. I don't know WHY, I just know it isn't. I *love* the program. She doesn't. I realize there's got to be something I missed somewhere to have her excited by it, but reality of it is, it just isn't working.

 

I'm tempted to keep plugging away because its everything I've been wanting in a curric...all the different levels, the all encapsulated delivery...But if I can't figure out how to get her wanting to do the work, if I can't figure out how to make her interested...then what good is it doing? Argh!

 

So, anyways...I'm thinking of MCT and SOTW. Problems, however, abound.

 

 

 

 

1. I'm not sure which MCT package to buy. She's starting grade 7.

2. I remember correctly, SOTW is aimed at a bit lower kids. How do I make things more interesting/challenging for her?

3. I screwed up last year. I purchased SOTW 2 and the activity pages. Not thinking, I simply gave Diva the pages to work on. So now, I'm missing probably a dozen pages of the activity book. No, I was too stupid to photocopy, despite being allowed to make copies for the children in my home. And Princess and Tazzie will be following along, so will want to do the pages. Anyone know of how I can just get the missing pages I need, aside from having to buy the entire activity book again?

I want to do TOG, so I may take another run at it another year. I'm sure its *my* screw up that Diva didn't like it. Pretty sure I messed it up, so I'll try it again when the Littles are older.

 

 

I wanted to say that as much as I loved TOG when the twins were using it in grade one, they HATED it!

 

They will be in 4th grade in the fall, and I have purchased it again and I am going to use it again -- successfully --:cursing: -- I hope they hear that. I am hoping that maturity (theirs, not mine), organization skills (mine, not theirs), dd11 (doing 6th grade and the same history level) will aid in what I expect to be their new-found love of TOG.

 

As for MCT, I would suggest for your going into 7th grade daughter, that you start at TOWN level. BUT, now knowing what her background or foundation is in Language Arts, if it is not a strong foundation, then i would suggest you start at ISLAND level - you will go through it quickly, but it will give her a level of confidence and familiarity in what is to come.

 

If you have any other questions, ask. I am about to open the box with the TOG I just purchased, and maybe I can help.

[TracyR]

I don't think you screwed up. Sometimes it takes a while to find your groove and your rhythm with a program. Sometimes its good to take a break and think about how to do something better sometimes. LOL.

Maybe TOG just doesn't work for her.

I had the same issues with Calvert with my older two. The longer I used it the more it didn't work for them. I really tried liking the curriculum but it just didn't fit them no matter how much I tweaked it.

You realize it doesn't work , time to do something else and move on.

[Melissa in CA]

But there is snothing wrong with SOTW if your dd likes it.

 

Having just come from the Sonlight Forum, there are many people who would disagree [gasp]. :confused: Apparently many SLers are calling SWB's historical accuracy into question. Saying it is fine for a young child perhaps, but not at all for a middle schooler who needs historical accuracy in their history text, not stories. They are not happy at all with the SL powers that be for placing the SOTW books in Cores 6 and 7. I guess they have found problems with things in all four volumes but apparently take great issue with Vol. 4? I haven't been to the SL forum in about two years...so I'm kind of out of the loop.

 

Anyhow, not wanting to cause debate at all, because frankly I don't know enough history to do so and I have only used Vol. 1 & 2. Just letting you know that there are some who would not consider using SOTW for 7th grade appropriate. I personally think they (SOTW) are too young for that age, I never considered the possibility of them also being inaccurate?? :confused:

 

I found the posts very fascinating reading, but out of respect for SWB, they would probably be considered heresy here on the WTM. ;)

[Delighted3]

You know, if it is the time and explanation that she wants. You could take over with the TOG. Take back the binder :) You could read the books together and talk about them. Do the maps together. Work on hands on projects that you organize and then do together. Ask her what she really doesn't like about it and set that part aside for awhile. If she feels set adrift in a sea of curriculum, then just switching to another curriculum ,especially a textbook, won't help that IMHO. TOG can be what you make of it. As little or as much as you want.

I haven't read all of the other responses. These are just some quick thoughts that I had.

HTH,

Joy

[lovemykids]

Having just come from the Sonlight Forum, there are many people who would disagree [gasp]. :confused: Apparently many SLers are calling SWB's historical accuracy into question. Saying it is fine for a young child perhaps, but not at all for a middle schooler who needs historical accuracy in their history text, not stories. They are not happy at all with the SL powers that be for placing the SOTW books in Cores 6 and 7. I guess they have found problems with things in all four volumes but apparently take great issue with Vol. 4? I haven't been to the SL forum in about two years...so I'm kind of out of the loop.

 

Anyhow, not wanting to cause debate at all, because frankly I don't know enough history to do so and I have only used Vol. 1 & 2. Just letting you know that there are some who would not consider using SOTW for 7th grade appropriate. I personally think they (SOTW) are too young for that age, I never considered the possibility of them also being inaccurate?? :confused:

 

I found the posts very fascinating reading, but out of respect for SWB, they would probably be considered heresy here on the WTM. ;)

 

Interesting, yes, I have found numerous inaccuracies, so I am aware of that. But then so many historical books do contain them that it’s hard to judge so harshly. I can see why in a program like SL people may be disconcerted by “yet another story bookâ€. Especially in light of the fact that they are not adding in another solid spine, like an encyclopedia (which, at times, may also contain inaccuracies). (yes, true)

But, with properly added factual sources, SOTW could be pleasant for middle school.