Comparing Latin Curricula

[3Rivers]

I'm just starting to look at this subject....

The ones I'm familiar with are:

 

Prima Latina

Latina Christiana

Latin Road to...

 

 

I would appreciate any comments you have on these, or others, thanks!

Oh, and this would be for a 7th grader.

 

Thank you!

 

Jamie

[lionfamily1999]

Prima Latina is the introductory course for Latina Christiana. We used PL and use LCI now and enjoy it. I've starting supplementing with Ecce Romani, because I saw how much ds enjoyed reading Greek in his Interlinear Bible and wanted to find something similar.

 

There's also Minimus Latin and that looks like a ton of fun. Song School Latin, I've heard good things about that. There's many more, but we've stuck with what's worked for us :)

[corbie]

My dd is almost 11 and is just finishing up Lively Latin. It has been great. We already have LL 2 purchased. She can teach herself for the most part. It is taught in small bites with very clear explanations. Some English grammar is explained too, including some diagramming. You have your choice of ecclesiastical or classical pronunciations. There are sound files for each. The only other curriculum we used was Prima Latina. You would not want to do that with a 7th grader. It's very basic and dull imo.

[JudoMom]

My oldest is doing Latin Prep.

 

He told me today that it is the best Latin book ever. Then he proceeded to tell me he was angry with one of his brothers in Latin.

[Brenda in FL]

If your looking at PL and LC - you may as well look at First Form Latin also from Memoria Press.

 

PL is better for younger elementary grades - so I wouldn't consider that for a 7th grader.

 

I'm leaning toward First Form for my 7th grader (he had PL in 3rd and has partially completed LC1 in 4th and 5th, nothing for 6th).

[3Rivers]

Thanks for the replies!

Now, how would you all rate these programs based on the following qualities:

 

user-friendly

teacher-intensive

open-and-go

clarity of format

good balance of challenging/easy

Price

 

Thanks!

[lionfamily1999]

I think Prima Latina and Latina Christiana fulfill all of those requirements ;)

 

*teacher intensive... Well, you do have to teach it, but it's nearly (though not quite) scripted. It tells you what to do, you just have to figure out how to say it :p

[Ester Maria]

Out of all the anglophone materials I have seen for teaching and learning Latin, the only one to suffice my criteria was Wheelock, if you do it at a normal speed and not drag it over six years, of course.

I am not familiar enough with Henle though, it seems to have quite a reputation, BUT, from the website of Memoria Press, namely, based on their suggested sequence, it seems "sort of okay", but not something I would use if I can work more quickly (cum clauses in eight grade?! ablative absolute in ninth? I studied both in the first semester of seventh, which was my third year of studying Latin, and my girls learned them in sixth; the sequence they suggest thematically is quite pretty slow, in my opinion, even though they do finish grammar by tenth grade).

 

In any case, those are the only two I would even consider, on the anglophone market, for middle and high schoolers. I avoid most of the "natural method" textbooks (Cambridge and alike), because they miss the point and often end up teaching a conlang based on Latin rather than Latin itself in the context of its time and place, and I say that if you want to actually learn Latin, get a good textbook so that you can finish grammar in 2-3 years and then just move onto the texts. Which is why I, again, suggest Wheelock.

 

I used a mishmash of various stuff with my daughters (mostly because we learned Latin more via Italian than via English), but I had a 7th grader finish grammar last year (she had only some more complex syntax to catch up this year, on Cicero), and the 6th grader is about to finish it, this year. They both occasionally used Wheelock and did not find it overly difficult. It's pretty straightforward and user-friendly if you read it carefully. :)

[lionfamily1999]

Ester, where can you get Wheelock?

 

Btw, I would DEFINITELY go with Ester's recommendation, she knows what she's talking about. ;)

[3Rivers]

Ester, where can you get Wheelock?

 

Btw, I would DEFINITELY go with Ester's recommendation, she knows what she's talking about. ;)

 

Boy, no kidding. I didn't know what she said half the time. :tongue_smilie: LOL just kidding. I have never cracked open a Latin book, so this is all new to me. I'm just drinking in the info...

 

Thanks everyone.

 

Jamie

[lionfamily1999]

Boy, no kidding. I didn't know what she said half the time. :tongue_smilie: LOL just kidding. I have never cracked open a Latin book, so this is all new to me. I'm just drinking in the info...

 

Thanks everyone.

 

Jamie

Ester proofed a story that ds wrote in Latin for me and did a wonderful job of it. No offense to any other Hive Latin scholars, but Ester definitely knows her Latin.

[branycbur]

I used Prima Latina with my daughter last year (she was in grade 3) and then we moved onto Latina Christiana this year. If I could go back, I would just skip Prima Latina because everything is being repeated in Latina Christiana this year. She keeps saying, "But I already learned this!"

Also, this year I bought Famous Men of Rome and the Book of Roots to supplement Latina Christiana and find them both useful. However, I would not buy Ludere Latine again because it is just games (crossword puzzles and such) which doesn't really fit with my dd's learning style.

I am actually thinking of trying out Minimus next year...I've read some great reviews.

[Ester Maria]

Ester, where can you get Wheelock?

I'm sorry for the delayed response, after pretty much an offline weekend I completely forgot about this thread.

I suppose you can order it via Amazon (Wheelock's Latin reader is also good, for the texts; there are also workbooks, but I never used them, so I can't comment on those). You can check this link from Amazon.

[3Rivers]

Ester, do you think I could use either Wheelock or Henle even though I have NO background whatsoever in Latin?

[mominbc]

Ester, do you think I could use either Wheelock or Henle even though I have NO background whatsoever in Latin?

 

Yes, I would like to know this too. My ds(16) took all three years of Latin Primer with videos from ages 10-13 and doesn't remember much of it at all. I have 3 children now I want to learn Latin, (one 12) and I have been turned off because it seemed useless last time, but I don't have much background except when I watched the videos too.:001_huh:

[aude sapere]

I purchased Looking at Latin from Bolchazy http://www.bolchazy.com/prod.php?cat=latin&id=6153

 

We use this grammar reference alongside LFC and Minimus.

 

Carrie

[Ester Maria]

Ester, do you think I could use either Wheelock or Henle even though I have NO background whatsoever in Latin?

Yes, no doubt.

 

Always, always, always use a proper program with older kids (middle/high school) and yourself, otherwise you're doing yourselves a BIG disservice on the long run. It's a lot better to understand little by little, and even to feel down upon realizing how little you have got so far at some point, but at least you will know where you are, which is a lot better than to think you understand a lot because you had finished lots of "dumbed down" material (in lack of better expression, I do NOT mean this in any derogatory way, just stating that most of the market IS flooded by not-so-great curricula and programs which take lots of money and then serve you lots of pictures and games and adapted texts... and little actual, concrete content which should bring you to the level of original texts) and then experience a cold shower effect when you want to start reading authentic texts.

 

The point is, there IS no easy way to learn Latin. To learn "Latin" (as in, syntactically and semantically bastardized Latin which is based lexically and morphologically on Latin; the kind of Latin most "natural method" students end up having), maybe, but NOT to actually hit a serious level with Latin.

You just have to study the sequence: go through morphology (that is, all the inflections), while absorbing the vocabulary and thus getting the lexical foundations of the language down; then you have to proceed to the syntax of cases and of sentence, and THEN you have a concerete knowledge of Latin (add metrics if you want to read poetry). Without a serious study of morphology and syntax at some point, you don't read Cicero (an example of an author whose speeches are incredibly syntactically complex).

 

So my logic is, why wait to get a concrete knowledge if you have a student who is on a cognitive level of understanding grammar, why waste many years and hundreds upon hundreds of dollars on various kids' curricula with middle and high school students, if you can just go stright to the point with a proper textbook, a grammar, a dictionary and a reader? It may be a less fun way to do it, since you'll actually have to work and concentrate on understanding things, and you won't be pleasantly distracted by pictures of Roman daily life and whatnot, BUT, you will learn Latin.

 

Also note that there are TONS of stuff out there online to help you out - old Latin textbooks out of copyright, exercises, texts with explanations, bilingual texts, dictionaries, conjugation and declension schemes, metrical schemes... Really, it's all here. It just takes your decision to actually learn Latin, and dedicate some amount of time and effort to it.

 

Also, while I may not be the greatest expert for Latin, I am always more than willing to help anyone stuck somewhere, to the best of my abilities - you can PM me, I can find additional materials (since Latin is studied A LOT in Italy, I know several good sites which might have some additional reasources, etc.), when there's a will, there's a way. :)

[lionfamily1999]

I can vouch for Ester always being willing and ready to help. It's incredible how much help she'll give too. Not just a simple yes or no, but a real explanation.

 

Can you tell I'm a fan :p

[Poke Salad Annie]

What about Latin Book One and Latin Book Two? Are these on par with Wheelocks?

[Medieval Mom]

Ester,

 

Is is your recommendation that we wait to teach children Latin at an older age? At what age do *you* recommend beginning Latin instruction with Wheelock's?

 

(BTW-- I *love* Wheelock's, too. It's what I used to learn Latin so very long ago... ;) )

[Ester Maria]

What about Latin Book One and Latin Book Two? Are these on par with Wheelocks?

Don't get me wrong, it's not the question of "being on par" with Wheelock, I'm not suggesting Wheelock because he's a God of Latin, but simply because it's the best anglophone textbook *I* have personally come across. It is possible that there are other good options that I simply don't know of (concretely speaking, no idea which books you're referring to - authors, publisher?); all I'm saying is that it's better to give up the "fun" approach with kids that are aged 10+ (of course, it's individual, like everything else, but generally, I'm referring to middle and high school students) and get a "serious" program so that you can finish the grammar in a few years and reach those texts, instead of dragging the grammar endlessly and never really reading, or reading little and superficially with incredible effort which doesn't pay off, all of it because you never properly learned syntax, those kinds of things. :) So I'm only bringing up Wheelock as my example of a "serious" program, not as the absolutely-best Latin program there is.

[Poke Salad Annie]

Latin Books One and Two are published by the Scott, Foresman and Company, 1937. The authors are Harry Scott, Frederick Sanford, and John F. Gummere. I have Book Two, and Book One is accessible via a yahoo group for that text especially.

 

I am following along with this thread, not questioning choices, but interested in the thoughts behind them.

[Ester Maria]

Ester,

 

Is is your recommendation that we wait to teach children Latin at an older age? At what age do *you* recommend beginning Latin instruction with Wheelock's?

 

(BTW-- I *love* Wheelock's, too. It's what I used to learn Latin so very long ago... ;) )

Actually, if you allow me to "rant" a bit, I'm going to say a lot of things which might even seem contradictory, but...

 

I personally started to study Latin when I was 10 years old (fifth grade), and Greek when I was 12 years old (seventh grade). Prior to that, it's not that I had zero contact with those languages (I heard a random quote, been recited to something, etc.), but I didn't actively study them. Usually the first 3 years were dedicated to the intricacies of grammar (i.e. morphology first, then syntax, and texts which basically served as an "aid" to learn the language rather than the purpose for themselves, i.e. those were usually parts out of bigger context, but you did pick up lots of cultural knowledge on your way), and then once you got to the texts, you studied ONLY texts, in the context (i.e. literature + culture). That meant 5 years of work on text in Latin, and 3 in Greek - and when I graduated I had a really solid knowledge and reading fluency in both. Even though my Greek got weaker with the years (since I had some additional Latin courses in university and, as I studied Italian literature, Latin is ever-present there), I never really lost it.

So you see, even though I had what many people on these boards would call a "late start", I don't think it was a late start at all, because at the end of the day, the amount we covered later was basically comparable to an undergraduate study of classics (not in the strict sense, of course, but more than once I realized it WAS comparable upon meeting dozens of classics majors).

 

With my daughters I had an approach of an "early start", i.e. as most people on these boards, I started playfully when they were young, as young as K in my case (as you can imagine, that meant little grammar, lots of stories, cultural knowledge more than anything else), and more seriously around their 3rd, actually more about 4th grade.

And guess what? The 7th grader finished her syntax THIS YEAR, with Cicero (Cicero is like the ultimate proof you know syntax around there :D). If I recall correctly, I did what she studies this year in roughly 8th grade.

The 6th grader will have her Cicero - what a surprise - in 7th or 8th grade (she's a bit slower than her sister).

 

In other words, there is almost no difference. On the long run, my daughters will have had MAYBE a year's worth of advantage over me when I was that age when they graduate in Latin, and at most two years' worth in Greek, despite the fact there are 4 and 6 years (actually, 5 and 7, if you count K) of distance of a START. I say at most, because I really had a killer Latin and Greek at school, and I doubt I'll do THAT much with them, if I homeschool them through high school.

 

Up until some point, kids are not cognitively ready for some material - and I'm talking about bright, and even linguistically inclined kids here. Maybe some true prodigies CAN cover syntax on Cicero in 4th grade - especially if that's all they do in life in general :D, which somehow wasn't my goal for my girls - but most won't. The "early Latin" is basically playing, to various extents. But still playing. Otherwise, if you insist that it's NOT playing and that it's serious, you just risk frustrating yourself and the kid.

 

That playing is not bad. It can lead to familiarity with the language (in sense of an emotional connection :D, positive connotations, etc.), it can be funny, kids can enjoy it... but don't sweat it to much. So I say, leave the actual analytical study for middle school period, regardless of whether you had that funny part with small kids or no. Dedicate a few years to it, NOT more (as in, don't drag it over six years, it'll wipe the energy out of you), but when you do it, concentrate on it and do it properly (i.e. with a "serious" method). And then just read, and read, and read more, and work on the texts and perfect all you've learned in theory on texts. Do it, and you'll graduate your student with a REALLY good background in Latin. All it takes is some period of CONCENTRATED effort on analytical study, and then just squeeze in some regularity, not as concentrated, of working on texts, and you've done amazing Latin.

So that's the answer to your question, "when Wheelock". Roughly middle school, when your student is ready - when you decide to start the analytical study.

 

I don't think early start is a must. As a matter of fact, if you make it a duty, it can even hinder the progress on the long run. In Europe they traditionally begin around 10-12, even later sometimes (the standard in Italy is ginnasio+liceo, that's final 5 years of education... I had 8, but we were a different school), and nobody considers it a catastrophe and a "late start". ;) As everything else, it's individual; I don't feel comfortable "prescribing" anyone when to start and whether to hit something like Wheelock's right away or with something more gentle - it DOES depend on the child. I'm just saying what are my general observations, based on what I've seen in my own case, my daughters' cases, and other kids in Italy and here.

 

It also depends on why you study Latin in the first place. I have to emphasize that everything I'm saying, I'm saying with the assumption that you want to actually learn Latin, not just get the roots done or get some cultural literacy. People who aim for that might, naturally, be inclined to use different types of materials and approaches.

Edited March 9, 2010 by Ester Maria

[lionfamily1999]

never mind ;)

Edited March 9, 2010 by lionfamily1999

[Ester Maria]

Sound good for 3rd grade?

In 3rd grade, with so small children, everything you and your son enjoy is good (just make sure it's correct so you don't reinforce the mistakes and then have to consciously get rid of them later). :) Don't worry, if it's LC1+ER for your son, great. If I were you, at that point I'd focus on generally developing a good "relationship" with Latin more than anything else.

[angela in ohio]

Prima Latina is for little kids. It's just vocabulary and doesn't fit the needs of anyone over second grade. Even LC would be awfully easy and boring for a kid in Jr. High. Most kids start LC in 3rd or 4th grade.

 

If you like MP then you would want First Form Latin, which is written for older beginning Latin students.

 

Another option at this age is Latin Alive! by CAP.

 

I can't speak to Latin road because I have never seen it.

 

:iagree:

[lionfamily1999]

In 3rd grade, with so small children, everything you and your son enjoy is good (just make sure it's correct so you don't reinforce the mistakes and then have to consciously get rid of them later). :) Don't worry, if it's LC1+ER for your son, great. If I were you, at that point I'd focus on generally developing a good "relationship" with Latin more than anything else.

:lol: I tried to delete, I must've posted the same time as you.

 

"I would make them all learn English; and then I would let the clever ones learn Latin, and Greek as a treat." (Sir Winston Churchill)

 

This covers Andrew. He enjoys languages. He loves Greek and he likes Latin ;) We've been flirting with Gaelic on the BBC languages web site. He definitely has a special place in his heart/mind for this.

[dsacco]

Ester -

 

What would you use for a 5th grader next year (has basic words and meaning through roots).... and an 8th grader (same situation)? I like Wheelock's for the 8th - but then where would he go from there? I can't figure out if it is a multi-year program or not.

 

They both LIKE Latin and Greek in the "game sense" and I believe they would like more.... especially the younger one.... but the ones we have looked at (Latin's Not So Tough and things like that) just seem below her so we always end up putting it aside.

 

THANKS :)

[iwka]

We are enrolled in Grammar Course, which is Latin/grammar at the CLAA.

[Mosaicmind]

In 3rd grade, with so small children, everything you and your son enjoy is good (just make sure it's correct so you don't reinforce the mistakes and then have to consciously get rid of them later). :) Don't worry, if it's LC1+ER for your son, great. If I were you, at that point I'd focus on generally developing a good "relationship" with Latin more than anything else.

 

So, in developing a good "relationship", what would your suggestions be to use then for the younger grades (3rd and 5th?). I was leaning towards Latina Christiana, but if I am going to use Wheelocks with my 7th grader can I do this more slowly with the younger two?

 

I needed to jump in on this thread too because I have been researching Latin curriculum for 4 days now and am still no closer to deciding what to use.

[Dee in MI]

Do a search on Wheelocks. I know Ester likes it, and I respect her opinion. She knows knows knows her Latin. But I think Wheelocks is terrible for self teaching. I tried it. I dropped it. Then I picked up Henle and made it. Henle is better for self teaching.

 

For an adult, my favorite is Latin Book One / Using Latin. I think they're a great mix of reading, grammar exercises, and translation. There are others that are similar, I'm sure. My copy was used for ninth and tenth grade in the fifties.

 

I started my son with LFC A-C. If I had it to do again, I'd only do A and B before moving to a middle school program. He loves the videos.

 

Next we're moving to Latin Prep I, II, and III, and then SYRWLL 3. I am using and liking SYRWL Spanish, and I've looked over and like Latin Prep. I think they're a modern, fun version of the Using Latin model.

[chiguirre]

:iagree: with Ester Maria, but I would add that if you don't have a strong background in a Romance language, Latin vocabulary will require a lot more work (and, probably, more time) than the ginnasio/liceo plan she outlines. For a kid who's fluent in Italian or Spanish (especially for a native speaker) Latin has a massive amount of cognates, for a native English speaker, not so much.

 

When I studied Latin as an adult in Venezuela, we didn't really spend any time on vocabulary building, we just studied grammar. We were able to start reading Aquinas after just 2 trimesters of grammar study. Of course, Aquinas is MUCH easier than Cicero in terms of syntax.

[lionfamily1999]

:iagree: with Ester Maria, but I would add that if you don't have a strong background in a Romance language, Latin vocabulary will require a lot more work (and, probably, more time) than the ginnasio/liceo plan she outlines. For a kid who's fluent in Italian or Spanish (especially for a native speaker) Latin has a massive amount of cognates, for a native English speaker, not so much.

 

When I studied Latin as an adult in Venezuela, we didn't really spend any time on vocabulary building, we just studied grammar. We were able to start reading Aquinas after just 2 trimesters of grammar study. Of course, Aquinas is MUCH easier than Cicero in terms of syntax.

So, then, what do you think of the grammar taught in Latina Christiana (if you've seen it).

 

I took Latin in high school, with Ecce Romani, but was completely lost from day one. Later, I took French and loved it. The approaches were so different though. Ecce Romani used stories to teach words and the grammar lessons came as needed. In French we learned basic conversation and grammar simultaniously.

 

I've added in Ecce Romani, because Andrew's grammar and vocabulary is strong enough that he recognizes many of the words and already understands why there are different endings. I just wonder if anyone can comment on the grammar taught in LC (correct or no?).

[Laura Corin]

Latin Prep is an excellent programme for 7th grade. You can check out samples on the Galore Park website.

 

Laura

[Jen S in Va]

So my logic is, why wait to get a concrete knowledge if you have a student who is on a cognitive level of understanding grammar, why waste many years and hundreds upon hundreds of dollars on various kids' curricula with middle and high school students, if you can just go stright to the point with a proper textbook, a grammar, a dictionary and a reader? It may be a less fun way to do it, since you'll actually have to work and concentrate on understanding things, and you won't be pleasantly distracted by pictures of Roman daily life and whatnot, BUT, you will learn Latin.

 

Also note that there are TONS of stuff out there online to help you out - old Latin textbooks out of copyright, exercises, texts with explanations, bilingual texts, dictionaries, conjugation and declension schemes, metrical schemes... Really, it's all here. It just takes your decision to actually learn Latin, and dedicate some amount of time and effort to it.

 

Also, while I may not be the greatest expert for Latin, I am always more than willing to help anyone stuck somewhere, to the best of my abilities - you can PM me, I can find additional materials (since Latin is studied A LOT in Italy, I know several good sites which might have some additional reasources, etc.), when there's a will, there's a way. :)

 

I have to say, I agree with Ester. Years ago when my eldest was in elementary school we started out with the only Latin kids program available at the time--Latin Primer. I was underwhelmed. I didn't know the language. I wanted something more meaty for him...and me. When he was around 5th grade or so I picked up Wheelocks for myself--joined a free online group that was working through the text--found a copy of a workbook, and also a copy of an answer key online and dove in. Meanwhile, a friend had found a copy of an old Latin text at a garage sale--no answer key. It seemed similar to Ecce Romani for high school to me. It started with a story--very basic, along with vocab, grammar, etc. I used this in combo with Wheelocks with my eldest. I worked ahead of him in both texts--translating the Latin passages in the old textbook (in later chapters, they would run several pages--myths, history of Rome, etc.) as I went. I liked the combination of the grammar, etc. from Wheelock with the stories from the old textbook. It is doable for you to learn Latin, but there is a commitment to study and work on it, but there is so much more help out there now than there was 10 years ago when I first started learning Latin. Now, I'm back to square one with my youngest and wonder where to start with him.