Why are these ps moms so blase about the problems?

[hsmom3tn]

I can't say that things like this go on at every school, but I know they do in some of them. This was one of the main reasons I decided to homeschool.

 

In my high school we had a few teachers that were having sex with the students - either right there in his office, or coercing them to leave with him for a little while. There were fights almost daily, a few even resulted in deaths. Someone would break into the chemistry lab and sprinkle sulfuric acid all over the school, or pull the fire alarm at least once a week. Sooo many girls were pregnant or had kids already. There were several secluded places where kids would go and have sex throughout the day. You could buy pretty much any drug you wanted. Some kids brought alcohol to school. I had a car, so a few teachers would ask me to leave campus and run errands for them. Even if the teachers weren't somehow involved in these things, they at least knew about it and did nothing. I guess it's possible that a few might not have known, but I really don't see how.

 

Girls were regularly harrassed by the basketball team, and the male teachers (even the principal) thought it was funny. I once had a basketball player grab me and carry me into a classroom, throw me down on a table, and pull my shirt up. He just laughed and ran off. This same guy would slap me on my behind every time I walked past him and follow me around saying disgusting things to me. And I wasn't the only one that he did this, too. But he was the "star" of the team, so no one was going to do anything about it.

 

In my senior year, I finally just stopped going to school for the most part. I felt like it was a big waste of my time. It was a dangerous place and I wasn't learning anything. Most of my teachers weren't teaching us anything. Some couldn't even be bothered to stay in the classroom. I was supposed to be taking AP English, but the regular teacher's husband had died over the summer and she didn't come back. We had subs in that class all year long. I went for the first two six weeks, and after that I only went back for my semester exams and final exams. I left the house with my parents thinking I was going to school and went somewhere else instead. I still graduated and no one ever called my parents to tell them that I had not been going to school.

 

Why don't kids speak up and tell someone? For me, it was partly because I didn't think anyone would listen or do anything about it. It was also partly because I was worried about what the other kids might do to me. All of my closest friends had already dropped out, and I felt really alone. I didn't want to cause any trouble that would make other kids want to get back at me. The adults knew about the violence for sure, it was on the news a lot. We eventually had police working there full time. They just couldn't get the kids under control. I remember the day after our city's first black mayor was elected. Many of the black students came to school with posters and ran up and down the halls chanting "we got a black man". It caused a huge riot and disrupted the first half of our school day.

 

Like I said, I know all schools aren't this bad; but my experiences were bad enough to make me not want to send my kids to ps. I don't know how the parents could know about problems like these and just ignore it. If I had told my mom about this stuff, she would have been down there and at the school board making a big fuss. But that's exactly why I didn't tell her....

[Retired]

I don't know that is so much blasé attitude but more that this is the accepted norm.

Most adults say PS schools are bad but their kids school is OK.

 

Then when something happens is always just "a one time thing" we really have a great school

 

I know many parents that honestly believe a certified teacher has to teach. They just can't see how they(themselves) could give their kids a good education.

I here them complain and they always want an option. They can't afford private school and they thing they aren't smart enough to home school

 

I am ask often to home school other kids.

 

I have a sister in law that complains all the time about stuff her child is exposed to at PS. She complains all the time but we never pull her kids out.

 

Lets see last year she was telling me about my 8yo niece being held down by a boy during PE.(he was hunching on her)

She was all upset and stuff. She even wanted home school catalogs and stuff. Then she still just left the kid in PS.

 

Lets see another friends child, witness a boy giving another boy oral sex in the back of the bus.

[Lovedtodeath]

Like I said, I know all schools aren't this bad; but my experiences were bad enough to make me not want to send my kids to ps. I don't know how the parents could know about problems like these and just ignore it. If I had told my mom about this stuff, she would have been down there and at the school board making a big fuss. But that's exactly why I didn't tell her....

 

I also experienced a lot of sexual harrassment in school. I really didn't notice that it was that bad while I was in it. I took correspondence from Indiana University in Bloomington for one semester because I had to have surgery and after that I didn't want to go back, so I didn't. :) I also got my work done much faster than I would have if I was in school, and only had to call my teachers for one subject. My severe depression, which the school counselor had blamed on my mom, magically cleared up when I was with my mom more often and taken away from the school. ;)

 

Most adults say PS schools are bad but their kids school is OK.

 

Then when something happens is always just "a one time thing" we really have a great school

:iagree: Edited February 8, 2010 by Lovedtodeath

[LibraryLover]

The issue I have with this attitude is the assumption that homeschoolers are exempt from certain behaviors that are seen everywhere. Even when we watch a mother drown all of her children we say, "Oh that has nothing to do with homeschooling' when indeed it has everything to do with the lifestyle they have chosen, where hsing is a cornerstone of that lifestyle. It all goes together. When we hear about the homeschooling parent who beats their child when they do not do well at spelling bees, we say "This is about parenting, not hsing", when again, parenting and hsing are intrinsic to each other.

 

Sadly,some of the most blase parents I have encountered have been homeschoolers. Fact: My oldest dd attended a small private school until she was 9. It was only when she attended a hsing group when we began homeschooling that she was sexually and/or verbally harassed. It happened on a couple of different occasions by two different children, both preteen boys. One was openly sexually harassing to some of the girls, the other was just a giant mean bully whose parents only goal was to get him into an ivy league school. Neither of these children had ever attended school a day in their lives. They had been born to parents dedicated to the philosophy of hsing. One child was the son of a physician, and another was the child of artists. One child was from a family who practiced their religion, another child was a hippie, doing a more relaxed approach to hsing.

 

That was our first year homeschooling, but I didn't think "Oh, why are hsing parents so blase about their children's horrible behavior and the needs of other children to be safe," even when it is clearly pointed out to them.

 

I don't understand why hsers can't be hsers without bashing schooling families. If we feel good about what we do, we can see there are issues of imperfection everywhere. This need to throw stones makes me ashamed sometimes to say I am a homeschooler. Many schoolers get that many hsers think they are bad parents. Why do we continually perpetuate this divisiveness? It also happens when we see parents working to better their schools, which often means needing more money for books, supplies, etc. some angry hsers see these schooling families try to do this and complain about throwing good money after bad...which does not address the fact that many schools do not have adequate supplies. Schoolers are ****ed by many hsers no matter what they do or how they do it.

Edited February 8, 2010 by LibraryLover

[Jean in Newcastle]

The issue I have with this attitude is the assumption that homeschoolers are exempt from certain behaviors that are seen everywhere. Even when we watch a mother drown all of her children we say, "Oh that has nothing to do with homeschooling' when indeed it has everything to do with the lifestyle they have chosen, where hsing is a cornerstone of that lifestyle. It all goes together. When we hear about the homeschooling parent who beats their child when they do not do well at spelling bees, we say "This is about parenting, not hsing", when again parenting and hsing are inexplicably tied together.

 

Sadly,some of the most blase parents I have encountered have been homeschoolers. Fact: My oldest dd attended a small private school until she was 9. It was only when she attended a hsing group when we began homeschooling that she was sexually and/or verbally harassed. It happened on a couple of different occasions by two different children, both preteen boys. One was openly sexually harassing to some of the girls, the other was just a giant mean bully whose parents only goal was to get him into an ivy league school. Neither of these children had ever attended school a day in their lives. They had been born to parents dedicated to the philosophy of hsing. One child was the son of a physician, and another was the child of artists. One child was from a family who practiced their religion, another child was a hippie, sort of unschooler.

 

That was our first year homeschooling, but I didn't think "Oh, why are hsing parents so non -caring of their children's horrible behavior," even when it is clearly pointed out to them.

 

Of course there is sinful, bad behavior in every group. The question is, what responsibility do we have as a society when it happens? Most societies have some kind of scale to evaluate bad behavior. There is verbal bullying in any group. But if it reaches the level of actual threats of bodily harm then we take action. There is physical bullying of some kind in any group. But if it reaches the level which we call assault, then we take action. BTW - I mean the "group" in the sense of categories of people. Obviously there are sub-groups of people who meet without any major problems.

 

Not all action involves law enforcement. That is why there is a system in place in schools for suspension, expulsion etc. I did not start this thread because I was naively surprised that there was bad behavior by people in schools (which I agree would be mirrored by people not in schools). I started it because it seemed like some of this behavior violated the standards of most public schools. I was taught that citizens have an underlying responsibility to notify authorities of gross violations of standards. In this case, if you knew of violations of school standards shouldn't you report it to the appropriate authorities? That is the context in which I used the term "blase". (Now I appreciate the comments people made about needing proof. I do agree with that.)

 

If I was part of a homeschooling group where a parent in charge of children showed up drunk, I would certainly report it to the appropriate authorities (the leaders of the group in this case). If the leaders of the group did nothing then I would stop going to that group. The public schools are a bit more complicated because while some people have chosen to stop participating, I recognize that not everyone can or wants to remove themself from the group. It is also more complicated when those violating the standards are part of the authority structure - like teachers. So as a citizen who has a stake in the public schools (even if my own children don't attend), I am interested in having the standards enforced.

[Lovedtodeath]

The issue I have with this attitude is the assumption that homeschoolers are exempt from certain behaviors that are seen everywhere.

 

I don't understand why hsers can't be hsers without bashing schooling families. If we feel good about what we do, we can see there are issues of imperfection everywhere.

True. I have actually seen a lot of homeschoolers who basically sit around ignoring their kids all day. I have even seen some who do not teach their kids a thing, not a thing, and leave them alone while they go out to work all day. I myself have a brilliant daughter who started out way ahead and has discipline issues and ADHD, a mom with health issues and a baby brother... and she is now starting to get behind her best friend who is in Public School. How did that happen??!!! Homeschooling does not always equal better.

[Lovedtodeath]

Of course there is sinful, bad behavior in every group. The question is, what responsibility do we have as a society when it happens?..... I was taught that citizens have an underlying responsibility to notify authorities of gross violations of standards. In this case, if you knew of violations of school standards shouldn't you report it to the appropriate authorities? That is the context in which I used the term "blase". (Now I appreciate the comments people made about needing proof. I do agree with that.)

 

If I was part of a homeschooling group where a parent in charge of children showed up drunk, I would certainly report it to the appropriate authorities (the leaders of the group in this case). If the leaders of the group did nothing then I would stop going to that group. The public schools are a bit more complicated because while some people have chosen to stop participating, I recognize that not everyone can or wants to remove themself from the group. It is also more complicated when those violating the standards are part of the authority structure - like teachers. So as a citizen who has a stake in the public schools (even if my own children don't attend), I am interested in having the standards enforced.

 

The thread title does say why are THESE parents so blase. It doesn't say all PS parents. There is an issue of PS authority figures not answering to a higher authority, including parents of the children who attend. The thread wasn't about bashing, and I get that.

[Laurie]

 

So as a citizen who has a stake in the public schools (even if my own children don't attend), I am interested in having the standards enforced.

 

I haven't read through all the responses so maybe someone has already suggested this:

 

Here's what you as a concerned citizen could do. Do you know the name of the school? You could send a letter, anonymous or not, to the principal of the school with a cc to the district superintendent, school board, and even to the state superintendent. Tell them you were shocked by what you overheard and if this is what your tax dollars are funding then you will vote no for every school levy. Let them know they don't have unlimited access to the taxpayers' wallets.

[LibraryLover]

School standards should be enforced.

 

Concern about other people's children is also what drives some schoolers to ask for more accountability for hsers. Schooles are most often transparent; we very often get to hear the bad. Homes are not transparent, and that is why some people might worry about some hsers, esp when a bad story does come out, which happens at times.

 

It's hard to see both sides, I know. Children are abused more at the hands of people who are related to them , and who they know, and that is a fact. Children are more apt to be raped by their uncles and cousins and brothers than by their teachers.

 

Frequently when bad things happen in school, we find out...not everything, but the news is filled with stories about kids (in Florida? why so often Florida?) who are tazed or handcuffed to police cars). Because children can be silenced in homes, we often don't hear of all the abuse that takes place there, often until the child becomes an adult.

 

There are thousands of hsers who visit this board. It's one of the largest hsing boards on the Internet. We have no idea what is happening in some of these families, and mostly never will. Blogs and posts don't alwasy tell complete stories, either. I am sure most of what goes on in our homes is good, but given the numbers who frequent the board, it's impossible that no child is being harmed. That no hs mother is sipping Vodka the entire day, or that no child is witnessing a parent being abused by another parent, that no brother or father or other family member is harming a child, or that some parents are not totally over-the-top with spanking and 'discipline'.

 

 

Of course there is sinful, bad behavior in every group. The question is, what responsibility do we have as a society when it happens? Most societies have some kind of scale to evaluate bad behavior. There is verbal bullying in any group. But if it reaches the level of actual threats of bodily harm then we take action. There is physical bullying of some kind in any group. But if it reaches the level which we call assault, then we take action. BTW - I mean the "group" in the sense of categories of people. Obviously there are sub-groups of people who meet without any major problems.

 

Not all action involves law enforcement. That is why there is a system in place in schools for suspension, expulsion etc. I did not start this thread because I was naively surprised that there was bad behavior by people in schools (which I agree would be mirrored by people not in schools). I started it because it seemed like some of this behavior violated the standards of most public schools. I was taught that citizens have an underlying responsibility to notify authorities of gross violations of standards. In this case, if you knew of violations of school standards shouldn't you report it to the appropriate authorities? That is the context in which I used the term "blase". (Now I appreciate the comments people made about needing proof. I do agree with that.)

 

If I was part of a homeschooling group where a parent in charge of children showed up drunk, I would certainly report it to the appropriate authorities (the leaders of the group in this case). If the leaders of the group did nothing then I would stop going to that group. The public schools are a bit more complicated because while some people have chosen to stop participating, I recognize that not everyone can or wants to remove themself from the group. It is also more complicated when those violating the standards are part of the authority structure - like teachers. So as a citizen who has a stake in the public schools (even if my own children don't attend), I am interested in having the standards enforced.

Edited February 8, 2010 by LibraryLover

[rockermom]

Believe me, even though I personally benefit from it, I think ironclad tenure is one of the worst things to happen to teaching since the death of Socrates.

 

I agree. A well-liked teacher in my high school was inappropriately touching girls in plain view of the class (I know this to be fact, not rumor... he did it in plain view).

 

When a female student filed a complaint (her father was even a school board member), several girls agreed to show up to tell their stories (as well as a few boys to tell what they'd seen). The hearing was mysteriously moved from Tuesday evening to Monday evening (the change was made on Monday afternoon) No one was told but the original girl who complained (she was told about an hour before the hearing).

 

The school board decided that she was a vengeful student and it was he said/she said. He taught for years at the same school after that because of "tenure". The other girls and parents were told that they missed the hearing and they should have been there.

 

It was horrible.

 

On a "way to go" note, boys in his classes started to find excuses to stand between the teacher and female students whenever they could or to call him over for any questions they could think of when he started getting too close to a female.

 

This was a nutshell story, so it probably doesn't make any sense. If that's the case, then please ignore this post. :tongue_smilie:

Edited February 8, 2010 by rockermom

[mrsrevmeg]

When I was in school we had teachers who had the hots for their students. We had teachers who drank during school hours. We had teachers who showed movies to kids with nudity and foul language/adult themes. Whenever a parent spoke up, they and their children were targeted as trouble makers. A friend of mine's mother talked to the principle about a teacher showing Lord of the Flies to our class. I think we were in 9th grade, maybe 11th) We also had teachers who did not teach anything. The parents who went to the school board only got their kids questioned at school. So most parents had the attitude that "just a few more years and you'll be out of here". Having to deal with that is one of the many reasons I decided to homeschool.

[Quad Shot Academy]

Because they have no hope that change is possible. You see it with caged animals. Eventually they quit trying to get out because they are convinced it isn't possible.

 

:iagree: from my own experience as a child. The worst being watching a teacher slowly die of a brain tumor over an entire semester. Complete with hallucinations, screaming from unbearable pain, passing out, having conversations with no-one and singling out children as being bad or loud, when they didn't do anything. My mom went to the principle and we were told that they could not take his job away from him. They would not even put a teacher's aide in the class to protect us from his rages about imaginary things.

[mirth]

That sure sounds urban legend-ish to me. I can't find anything except variations on the story- no reference to an actual study anywhere. One article said that a couple business professors did the study. How on earth would business professors ever get their hands on monkeys? They wouldn't have the slightest idea how to perform a primate experiment.

 

Do you happen to have a reference?

 

There is a citation for Gary Hamel and CK Prahalad, Competing For The Future (Cambridge MA, Harvard Business School Press, 1996), 55-56 provided in the book for this monkey experiment.

 

I also doubt that b-school professors did a primate study (and if they did, it would probably take up more than 1 page in their book!), but they may well have cited one, or made it all up. Only pp. 55-56 can tell.

[Perry]

There is a citation for Gary Hamel and CK Prahalad, Competing For The Future (Cambridge MA, Harvard Business School Press, 1996), 55-56 provided in the book for this monkey experiment.

 

I also doubt that b-school professors did a primate study (and if they did, it would probably take up more than 1 page in their book!), but they may well have cited one, or made it all up. Only pp. 55-56 can tell.

I actually found some information about it here.

 

I guess I interpret the study differently than those business professors. To me, the monkeys learned how to communicate a behavior to other monkeys. They may not have understood the details of what would happen, but they got the message that it was a bad idea. If it were people, they'd just use words, but the result would be the same. And if the monkeys, or a person, went ahead and tried for the bananas anyway and then got sprayed, we'd say "told you so, dumb*ss".

Did the monkey banana and water spray experiment ever take place?

 

In: Monkeys, Science Experiments [Edit categories]

[improve]

Well, it seems to be true; not in the exact shape that it took here, but close enough: Stephenson, G. R. (1967). Cultural acquisition of a specific learned response among rhesus monkeys. In: Starek, D., Schneider, R., and Kuhn, H. J. (eds.), Progress in Primatology, Stuttgart: Fischer, pp. 279-288.

mentioned in: Galef, B. G., Jr. (1976). Social Transmission of Acquired Behavior: A Discussion of Tradition and Social Learning in Vertebrates. In: Rosenblatt, J.S., Hinde, R.A., Shaw, E. and Beer, C. (eds.), Advances in the study of behavior, Vol. 6, New York: Academic Press, pp. 87-88:

[...] Stephenson (1967) trained adult male and female rhesus monkeys to avoid manipulating an object and then placed individual naïve animals in a cage with a trained individual of the same age and sex and the object in question. In on case, a trained male actually pulled his naïve partner away from the previously punished manipulandum during their period of interaction, whereas the other two trained males exhibited what were described as "threat facial expressions while in a fear posture" when a naïve animal approached the manipulandum. When placed alone in the cage with the novel object, naïve males that had been paired with trained males showed greatly reduced manipulation of the training object in comparison with controls. Unfortunately, training and testing were not carried out using a discrimination procedure so the nature of the transmitted information cannot be determined, but the data are of considerable interest.