New to TWTM with lots of questions!

[Jenny in GA]

Hi Everybody,

 

My kids are 8,6, and 3, and we have always homeschooled.

 

I recently got a copy of TWTM and am really enjoying it. It's weird, because it is very very different from what we have been doing so far, and yet it intrigues me.

 

I think I like the idea of having such high expectations. Also, the words "rigorous" and "striving" come to mind.

 

What was striking to me was to read in it light of several homeschooled teens I know. They play on the computer a lot and "don't read much" except things like Calvin and Hobbes books. Reading this book is making me realize that, well, I'm not sure I want my kids to be like that when they're teens.

 

But ...

 

My own kids are not doing anything NEAR what TWTM suggests. My third grader is reading Magic Tree House books, not Dickens! And no way does she read for over an hour a day! I thought I was doing good to insist she read for at least 15 minutes every day!

 

Here are some questions to throw out, to get an idea of a feel of what "TWTM People" are really like and up to ... and to see if I want to head down that road more -- and if so, how.

 

1) Did any of you make a shift/discover TWTM a few years into your homeschool journey? If so, was it a big shift? What did it look like? What made you decide to change?

 

2) We have spent the last couple years doing Five in a Row (literature-based unit studies). Does anyone here also use FIAR? Do most TWTM people see as it as way too easy? Is FIAR considered the antithesis of TWTM? What is your opinion about that curriculum? I won't get upset if you say it's awful! :001_smile:

 

4) TWTM book seems so rigorous. In contrast, we have been doing a lot of Peggy Kaye's "Games" books. It almost makes me want to laugh, because even though we've enjoyed those games, they seem so babyish and simple compared to, say, writing letters a few times a month and spending 30 minutes on Grammar, and another 15 minutes on Spelling, every day. Do you guys play games at school time, or are you as rigorous as the book sounds? What do you think of the Peggy Kaye activities? Again, I won't be offended or anything if it's bad ...

 

5) How similar is what you do what TWTM suggests? I know it's very possible to like a book but not always do exactly what it says to the letter. Are you kids really doing all the things it says? If so, let me say I am very impressed! If not, what things do you like the most? What do you either disagree with, or just don't do exactly like they say?

 

Any other thoughts or suggestions?

 

Thanks!

Jenny

http://beanmommyandthethreebeans.blogspot.com/

[LauraGB]

Welcome!

 

My own kids are not doing anything NEAR what TWTM suggests. My third grader is reading Magic Tree House books, not Dickens! And no way does she read for over an hour a day! I thought I was doing good to insist she read for at least 15 minutes every day!

Ds was still reading Magic Tree House when he was 8. In fact, we use SOTW and used a lot of MTH books in the earlier years. I think Dickens would be hard to understand for the average 8 year old on his own, except maybe A Christmas Carol, so in that case, he would make great read alouds. Or quality adapted versions of those stories work well for that age, too.

As far as time limits, is your 15 min per day independent, fun reading? Because there's a good chance she gets in a lot of reading with FIAR.

 

 

1) Did any of you make a shift/discover TWTM a few years into your homeschool journey? If so, was it a big shift? What did it look like? What made you decide to change?

Actually, I found WTM while I was trying to decide to hs. Its the only major resource I've used. However, my kids did go to school briefly before we homeschooled. But I don't think there was too much of a shift - I think we kind of eased into it and went with what we were all comfortable with instead of forcing it quickly.

 

 

2) We have spent the last couple years doing Five in a Row (literature-based unit studies). Does anyone here also use FIAR? Do most TWTM people see as it as way too easy? Is FIAR considered the antithesis of TWTM? What is your opinion about that curriculum? I won't get upset if you say it's awful! :001_smile:

A lot of people use the literature based curricula! *I* would love to do this, but, alas, my kids would not love it nearly as much. :glare: However, over on the k-8 boards, you will find a lot of great discussion about FIAR and others.

 

4) TWTM book seems so rigorous. In contrast, we have been doing a lot of Peggy Kaye's "Games" books. It almost makes me want to laugh, because even though we've enjoyed those games, they seem so babyish and simple compared to, say, writing letters a few times a month and spending 30 minutes on Grammar, and another 15 minutes on Spelling, every day. Do you guys play games at school time, or are you as rigorous as the book sounds?

We used to play a ton of games when the dc were that age! We still do the required class time, though. But never underestimate the power of the games! Fun drilling is a good way to solidify new knowledge. Sing-songy things are cool too, even though they seem silly, they really stick with you. Just this morning in grammar, they both chanted thier being verbs that they learned in 1st grade (complete with clapping!) to help them through the lesson! They did it last month with thier prepositions, too, lol.

 

 

5) How similar is what you do what TWTM suggests? I know it's very possible to like a book but not always do exactly what it says to the letter. Are you kids really doing all the things it says? If so, let me say I am very impressed! If not, what things do you like the most? What do you either disagree with, or just don't do exactly like they say?

We pretty much do follow the book, but I know a lot of successful homeschoolers who don't. Its really just a guideline. We have tweaked a few things - for instance, we tried three different Latin sources and hated every one of them, so we've been studying Italian, and now Spanish, as well as Latin and Greek roots. I think its really important to watch and consider what your dc want and also what you want (because it shows through to them) and form your curriculum choices around that. WTM is a great resource, though; full of choices and suggestions.

[Rosie_0801]

Welcome :)

 

I'm not homeschooling yet, so I can't comment on the "been there, done that" parts of your post.

 

2) We have spent the last couple years doing Five in a Row (literature-based unit studies). Does anyone here also use FIAR? Do most TWTM people see as it as way too easy? Is FIAR considered the antithesis of TWTM? What is your opinion about that curriculum? I won't get upset if you say it's awful! :001_smile:

Heaps of people on here use FIAR. I'd love to use Before FIAR with my dd next year, but there isn't a chance it would work here :)

 

4) Do you guys play games at school time, or are you as rigorous as the book sounds?

Rigorous doesn't have to mean dry and dull :) There are regular conversations on here about what rigorous means. There's never any consensus as to what it means, but everyone agrees that it doesn't mean dull and too hard. Kids learn by playing. Some things need to be taught via bookwork, but plenty of things don't. There is more than one way to skin a cat :)

 

5) How similar is what you do what TWTM suggests? I know it's very possible to like a book but not always do exactly what it says to the letter. Are you kids really doing all the things it says? If so, let me say I am very impressed! If not, what things do you like the most? What do you either disagree with, or just don't do exactly like they say?

I intend to follow WTM recommendations for humanities, but I disagree with their approach to maths and science so I researched further to figure out, then find, what I was looking for. I will also start other languages earlier than they suggest. Susan herself says in the book she doesn't do everything listed. If the author doesn't, the rest of us needn't feel obliged :D It's very odd to have to develop theories of education on so many topics so read the book, add the bits you like in, and ponder further on those you're not sure about.

 

:)

Rosie

[Harriet Vane]

Hi Everybody,

 

My kids are 8,6, and 3, and we have always homeschooled.

 

I recently got a copy of TWTM and am really enjoying it. It's weird, because it is very very different from what we have been doing so far, and yet it intrigues me.

 

I think I like the idea of having such high expectations. Also, the words "rigorous" and "striving" come to mind.

 

What was striking to me was to read in it light of several homeschooled teens I know. They play on the computer a lot and "don't read much" except things like Calvin and Hobbes books. Reading this book is making me realize that, well, I'm not sure I want my kids to be like that when they're teens.

 

But ...

 

My own kids are not doing anything NEAR what TWTM suggests. My third grader is reading Magic Tree House books, not Dickens! And no way does she read for over an hour a day! I thought I was doing good to insist she read for at least 15 minutes every day!

 

My 8yo third grader reads about 30 minutes a day. I have found that he cannot read just one book in that time, either--he really needs to switch. Each book gets about ten minutes.

 

My almost 13yo dd is and has always been an advanced reader. The first time she took a standardized test, in 4th grade, she was reading at a 12th grade level. HOWEVER she was not up to reading Dickens either! She could understand the vocabulary, and read voraciously, all the time, but didn't have the stamina or the concentration required for Dickens. She and I did read Dickens (Oliver Twist) together, mostly aloud, in the latter half of fifth grade. She was very very motivated, though it was an effort. At the time I did not know anyone else with a child that age tackling Dickens. All of this to say to please not beat yourself up because your kids aren't reading Dickens--I think it's more appropriately addressed with a middle schooler, who has comfortable reading skills and is motivated.

 

Here are some questions to throw out, to get an idea of a feel of what "TWTM People" are really like and up to ... and to see if I want to head down that road more -- and if so, how.

 

1) Did any of you make a shift/discover TWTM a few years into your homeschool journey? If so, was it a big shift? What did it look like? What made you decide to change?

We switched from Sonlight to TWTM when dd was entering third grade. I was unhappy with Sonlight's language arts program, and also really inspired by TWTM, so we switched. We use most of TWTM suggestions, but do not for science (we use a co-op for that). Also, I don't like reading adaptations of the classics for children, only to read the real classics when they are older. There is soooo much quality children's literature--we read the best that is out there at the right age. (This is Sonlight's philosophy as well as Charlotte Mason.) Now that my dd is older and can handle the classics, she is doing just fine.

 

2) We have spent the last couple years doing Five in a Row (literature-based unit studies). Does anyone here also use FIAR? Do most TWTM people see as it as way too easy? Is FIAR considered the antithesis of TWTM? What is your opinion about that curriculum? I won't get upset if you say it's awful! :001_smile:

It's fine for the younger years. I think as long as you are reading, thinking, learning (a la Mental Multivitamin--a blog by a former poster) then it's all good for the younger years. Once they are reading fluently you can hit the books a little harder--so it's fine to go deeper at about third grade or so.

 

4) TWTM book seems so rigorous. In contrast, we have been doing a lot of Peggy Kaye's "Games" books. It almost makes me want to laugh, because even though we've enjoyed those games, they seem so babyish and simple compared to, say, writing letters a few times a month and spending 30 minutes on Grammar, and another 15 minutes on Spelling, every day. Do you guys play games at school time, or are you as rigorous as the book sounds? What do you think of the Peggy Kaye activities? Again, I won't be offended or anything if it's bad ...

Nobody is as rigorous as the book sounds--not even SWB! Susan herself has spoken before about how they customize based on each child's strengths. Personally, if games are facilitating the learning, great! Go for it. Any method only works if it fits the student and the teacher and helps you meet the goal of learning.

 

5) How similar is what you do what TWTM suggests? I know it's very possible to like a book but not always do exactly what it says to the letter. Are you kids really doing all the things it says? If so, let me say I am very impressed! If not, what things do you like the most? What do you either disagree with, or just don't do exactly like they say?

My kids do almost all TWTM suggestions, except that we do science at co-op. Also we read our own literature suggestions as I explained above. However, I have found that there just isn't enough time in a day to do it all, so they both toggle between learning English grammar, Latin, and Spanish--rarely all in one day. Dd does her Logic haphazardly at best. I try not to obsess about it--as long as they are reading, thinking, learning each day, moving forward and doing their best, it's all good.

 

Any other thoughts or suggestions?

Relax and just give it a try. Some things may work well, others not so much. Embrace the ideas in TWTM as guidance, as a philosophy, and then choose those materials that fit your family's needs best. SWB's specific curriculum suggestions may be just the ticket, or perhaps not. The most important thing is to choose what fits your family and what will work.

 

 

Thanks!

Jenny

http://beanmommyandthethreebeans.blogspot.com/

 

Some thoughts above.

[prairiegirl]

Welcome to the board, Jenny. I am also on the FIAR board and saw your question there about WTM. I am glad that you came over here to get the other side of the story.

 

I do not use WTM exactly as it is written. I use it as a guide. My children are all different so I am not going to stress out if they are not doing things exactly as it states in the book. I am using WTM more for the logic stage, especially the writing section. That section has helped peel me off of the ceiling more times than I can count.

 

My ds is 8 and he is reading MTH, too. I am very happy with his reading progress. Does it really say that an 8 yr. old should be reading Dickens? My ds could not possibly read Dickens but he could understand it if I read it to him. I read The Christmas Carol to him this month and he loved it. He may not be reading at a high level but I am reading books to him that are of a higher level (does that make sense?)

 

As Rosie said, the word rigorous has been discussed here many times. We all have different ideas of what it means. I, personally, hate that word because it dredges up pictures of stiff and boring. Classical Education does not have to mean that.

 

You will find on here that many people use, or have used, FIAR and have wonderful memories of using it. Some people think that it is fine for the younger years but a bit light once they get to the older grades. I, myself, have used it for K and Grade 1. We loved our FIAR years.

 

If you are thinking of implementing some of WTM, I would encourage you to take one or two things that resonate with you and try those things. When you are comfortable with that then, if there are other things, implement them into your day. The only way you are going to see if it is for you and your family is to actually do it. There is no harm done if it doesn't work.

[Suzanne in ABQ]

Susan Wise Bauer wrote an article several years ago for folks in your situation, starting in the middle. It will probably answer many of your questions.

 

You can read it here: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/older-child/

 

There are actually dozens of articles, written by her and others, on the Site Resources page, accessible from the welltrainedmind.com home page.

 

The main thing to remember is that NOBODY does everything listed in the book, not even the author. Both Susan and her mom, Jesse, reiterate that in the book and in articles and workshops. Read it all, then pick what works for you and your children. Every child is different, and every family is different. Pick the most intriguing, or the most doable, and do it first. Then, add in more as you go, or drop stuff that just doesn't work. Make WTM a tool, not a task master, and you'll reap the gold for yourself.

[Chrystal]

Welcome.

 

We also use the FIAR books. I use them in our co-op for a creative writing course aimed at 1-2 graders, but dd (6) and I used them for our homeschool staring point.

 

We moved into more of the WTM this year and now only do the FIAR books for fun.

 

She was just ready to move on. I love the FIAR though and will probably continue them throughout our journey just for the great times that we have together.

[Free Indeed]

HI! We use FIAR too. Really, I do not think it can be beat for the early grades. It inspired such a love of reading in all my children. However, at some point they really need more. TWTM, provides the "outline" for that more. I am thankful at how it lays it all out for you, and yet gives you flexibility in the way it is done.

For your other questions: Your child does not need to be reading Dickens, but read alouds that are above their level and hold their interest are great. You can always find an abridged version of a classic book for them to read.

 

For our shift we just added in a little more to their day over a 6 week time period so it wasn't all at once. Classical education, or even rigorous education does not mean dry, dull, boring. We have fun too. Our kids are happy, joyful and learning. I participated in the FIAR/WTM thread, and I still also recommend you also read the articles on http://www.triviumpursuit.com

[Alice]

2) We have spent the last couple years doing Five in a Row (literature-based unit studies). Does anyone here also use FIAR? Do most TWTM people see as it as way too easy? Is FIAR considered the antithesis of TWTM? What is your opinion about that curriculum? I won't get upset if you say it's awful!

 

I use FIAR. I saw your question and the discussion on the FIAR boards but I think Z. was having a fussy day that day and I never had a chance to respond. I don't think FIAR is the antithesis of WTM, but they are very different. I think FIAR is perfect for the younger grades. I used it with C6 for preschool and K. I'm using Before FIAR now with my 3 year old and he LOVES it and it's a very sweet easy approach for an age when really anything is icing on the cake. I'm always amazed by the women on the FIAR boards who do so much with the curriculum in later years...for me it just doesn't fit my style or my philosophy. When I read WTM my immediate thought was "this is how I wish I'd been educated". Teaching this way fits me, which makes me a better teacher and makes it easier for me than teaching something that doesn't fit me..like unit studies. So far, it works well for my son as well.

 

4) TWTM book seems so rigorous. In contrast, we have been doing a lot of Peggy Kaye's "Games" books. It almost makes me want to laugh, because even though we've enjoyed those games, they seem so babyish and simple compared to, say, writing letters a few times a month and spending 30 minutes on Grammar, and another 15 minutes on Spelling, every day. Do you guys play games at school time, or are you as rigorous as the book sounds? What do you think of the Peggy Kaye activities? Again, I won't be offended or anything if it's bad ...

 

We use a lot of games for review and drill. I love the Peggy Kaye books, espeically the ones for Math.

 

5) How similar is what you do what TWTM suggests? I know it's very possible to like a book but not always do exactly what it says to the letter. Are you kids really doing all the things it says? If so, let me say I am very impressed! If not, what things do you like the most? What do you either disagree with, or just don't do exactly like they say?

 

I follow it fairly closely but not to the letter. I've also heard SWB and Jessie Wise speak and they both emphasized that it's meant to be a guide and not a formula. As I grow more confident as a homeschooler I imagine that I'll make even more decisions that are different from what's "in the book".

Any other thoughts or suggestions?

[prairie rose]

1) Did any of you make a shift/discover TWTM a few years into your homeschool journey? If so, was it a big shift? What did it look like? What made you decide to change?

 

I read the WTM when my kids were preschoolers. I loved the concept of WTM but when the kids became school age, in actual practice, WTM didn't work for us. That's when I discovered FIAR and found it to be the perfect fit for early elementary age for us. However WTM influenced us still, we used WTM language arts in addition to and sometimes in place of FIAR language arts. We chose to study Latin per TWTM.

 

2) We have spent the last couple years doing Five in a Row (literature-based unit studies). Does anyone here also use FIAR? Do most TWTM people see as it as way too easy? Is FIAR considered the antithesis of TWTM? What is your opinion about that curriculum? I won't get upset if you say it's awful! :001_smile:

 

I think you would be surprised at the amount of FIARs that also follow WTM and participate or at least lurk on these boards.

 

4) TWTM book seems so rigorous. In contrast, we have been doing a lot of Peggy Kaye's "Games" books. It almost makes me want to laugh, because even though we've enjoyed those games, they seem so babyish and simple compared to, say, writing letters a few times a month and spending 30 minutes on Grammar, and another 15 minutes on Spelling, every day. Do you guys play games at school time, or are you as rigorous as the book sounds? What do you think of the Peggy Kaye activities? Again, I won't be offended or anything if it's bad ...

 

I think it's inaccurate at best and dangerous at worst to assume that rigorous and fun are not compatible. Just as FIAR is as rigorous as you make it, WTM is as fun as you make it. It's also all in how you approach the work and how you child perceives it. I have one child who finds even FIAR to be drudgery and another who would happily fill pages a day with copywork from the time she was only enough to hold a pencil. Games can be very rigorous and great for review, don't underestimate their value.

 

5) How similar is what you do what TWTM suggests? I know it's very possible to like a book but not always do exactly what it says to the letter. Are you kids really doing all the things it says? If so, let me say I am very impressed! If not, what things do you like the most? What do you either disagree with, or just don't do exactly like they say?

 

The authors themselves don't even follow their suggestions exactly. The time guidelines were the publisher's idea, not the authors. I think the biggest thing about WTM is realizing that, as someone else mentioned, it's a guide not a formula. To me, the biggest objectives of a WTM style education is to build a strong foundation in the 3r's in the Poll-Parrot and Grammar stages, then build analytical skills in the logic stage and finally, polish the skills of self expression in the rhetoric stage. TWTM gives a framework and even curriculum ideas for accomplishing this kind of education but ultimately it's up to you to accomplish these objectives in the way that best suits your family and your students.

[CAMom]

 

I think you would be surprised at the amount of FIARs that also follow WTM and participate or at least lurk on these boards.

 

 

 

Hi!:) Long time FIAR boardie who lurked here for years and years! I joined into the conversation on the high school board and have so greatly benefited from the wisdom of the ladies there!

 

I love FIAR and used it for the earlier grades as well. Starting about 5th or 6th grade is when I really started getting more "rigorous." It's worked great for us in that my kids love to learn and they are doing very well.

 

I'm starting all over again now with FIAR and the 4 year old. I'm really looking forward to doing it with him. FIAR is a great foundation to light the fire of learning!

[lionfamily1999]

1) Did any of you make a shift/discover TWTM a few years into your homeschool journey? If so, was it a big shift? What did it look like? What made you decide to change?

Lol, we started hsing ;) Ds fit the description of a burgeoning non-learner to a 't.'

2) We have spent the last couple years doing Five in a Row (literature-based unit studies). Does anyone here also use FIAR? Do most TWTM people see as it as way too easy? Is FIAR considered the antithesis of TWTM? What is your opinion about that curriculum? I won't get upset if you say it's awful! :001_smile:

I don't know anything about FRIAR, sorry.

4) TWTM book seems so rigorous. In contrast, we have been doing a lot of Peggy Kaye's "Games" books. It almost makes me want to laugh, because even though we've enjoyed those games, they seem so babyish and simple compared to, say, writing letters a few times a month and spending 30 minutes on Grammar, and another 15 minutes on Spelling, every day. Do you guys play games at school time, or are you as rigorous as the book sounds? What do you think of the Peggy Kaye activities? Again, I won't be offended or anything if it's bad ...

Know nothing about Kay, either, lol. We use FLL, but it does not usually take a full 30 minutes and our 15 minutes of spelling is in Spelling Workout. We do play games, and I have to say poem memorization can be a lot more fun than you might think ;) Also, FLL does has little game-like activities for many lessons. Ds loves grammar at the best of times and is neutral at the worst.

5) How similar is what you do what TWTM suggests? I know it's very possible to like a book but not always do exactly what it says to the letter. Are you kids really doing all the things it says? If so, let me say I am very impressed! If not, what things do you like the most? What do you either disagree with, or just don't do exactly like they say?

I believe we're pretty close. I've slacked off on notebook pages, but we're fixing that this coming year. I use eequalsmcq.com for science, Atoms and Molecules just didn't work out for us. The reading lists, while rigerous are incredibly enjoyable. We did read "A Christmas Carol" last week and it's amazing how easily ds followed the story, even with rich language.

 

Any other thoughts or suggestions?

We've been doing this for one year now :party: It wasn't the easiest thing at first. There was a lot more reading and writing than ds had done in ps, that took getting used too. Also, he was pretty well behind TWTM's levels (although considered advanced). Now that we've caught up :hurray: the difference is incredible.

 

If tv is a problem, don't pay the bill. It took us awhile to get used to it, but all of the shows we enjoyed are available online for free. The kids watch movies and sometimes I will let them watch a show on the computer. The difference is unbelievable. They have imaginations, they use their imaginations, they are not zombies, and they read read read.

[Cedarmom]

Welcome! I started using WTM when my son was about 9. We had used Charlotte Mason and Beyond FIAR. We also used the Peggy Kaye games. My son still has fond memories of those. They are awesome, make sure you find time to keep playing games, it is a great way to reinforce what you are learning.

 

We started TWTM by adding formal grammar,writing instruction, and floowing the guidelines for history. For the history reading, we continued much as we did before, using read alouds. Only now I was using the TWTM list. He did some of the reading on his own, but the harder books we did as read aloud. We had done some grammar and writing instruction, but when he was about 9 or 10, I switched to TWTM. I didn't jump in all at once, but did a few changes as we went. Doing the timelines is great, I would suggest doing that if you aren't already. We didn't start Latin until he was 11, though I wish we had started earlier. My son had 30 minutes of reuqired reading (from TWTM list) and then we did about 30 minutes of read aloud. Retellings of classics are a great way to start. We didn't do all the things Susan suggested but everything we did, I am glad we implemented in our school.

 

Now, my son is a teenager. He enjoys the challenge of reading classics, and is not afraid to tackle them. Of course, he still spends lots of time on the computer, though:001_smile:

[happyhomemaker25]

I read WTM while we were waiting for adoption to be finalized so I could pull my oldest two out of school.

I KNEW it was the way I wanted to teach.

The day we started homeschooling I had ALL of the suggested stuff from WTM. It only took about a week for us to realize that it was not going to work that way.

I would start with the basics and work into some of the other stuff. Adapt it for your family. If your kids aren't ready for something you will know it. Put it up for awhile and try again later.

WTM is a great guide and I have mine nearby at all times to consult. Trying to do everything the book suggests will just burn you out though.

[pereztribe]

I started out with TWTM, but found out my dd is just not into learning that way. I am, but she loves art and crafts. I still use it as a guide, but have adapted it to use it more as unit studies. For instance, we study math and grammar in the mornings. Then we do our unit study in the afternoon. I use the vocabulary, dictation, and research and a literature for the unit. I get a lot of great units from www.handsofachild.com

 

I may go back to the disciplined way of TWTM in junior high and high school,(b/c I really love the way it speaks to my heart) but for my second grader, I can't stress about it. I feel I need to inspire a love for learning first before the disciplined study begins. Hope this answered some questions.

[missmoe]

I didn't start with TWTM. I floundered around with unit studies until my oldest was 8 or 9. I say floundered because I didn't have a plan for what would be studied when. We studied friction and then we studied Ancient China and then we studied Bach and then we studied... We just bounced from one interest to another interest without any long-term goals. TWTM spoke to me because it lays out a plan from beginning to end. It gave me a starting point and an ending goal.

 

I don't use a lot of the curriculum suggestions in TWTM, but I do use the method and plan in TWTM.