In Your Opinion (If you were counseling someone about forgiveness)

[momtoboys]

Would you tell someone that in order to forgive someone they had to admit to themselves and God what happened. . .in the sense that if something was abuse, they should call it that, at least between themselves and God?

 

Or would you say it was okay for them to say that the person sinned against them or that the person "did some things that weren't right or appropriate."

 

Just wondering for someone I am helping. Oh, and we're not talking about an occasional spanking or something when they were growing up (just to avoid controversy!) ;)

[dangermom]

I'm not any sort of counselor, but that sounds right to me; how can you honestly forgive if you haven't honestly acknowledged what happened?

[Harriet Vane]

Can this person acknowledge that what was done was wrong?

 

If so, then the rest is semantics. It doesn't really matter how it is worded. I would never require a specific wording from someone who has been hurt in this way as it seems picky or legalistic.

[momtoboys]

Thanks for the responses!

 

Strider--

 

If the person would say "well they did some things that were wrong." But at the same time, refused to say it was abuse, or that it hurt or bothered them (even though it obviously secretly did). If they in the same sentence said "it wasn't that bad". . when it was.

 

Is "well they did some things (or a few things) that were wrong" good enough?

 

I obviously don't want to push an issue that isn't a big deal either, so I appreciate your input!

[lionfamily1999]

I think forgiveness is between one and God.

 

If they don't feel so bad about it, then why try to make them feel worse?

[Crissy]

I have been reading a book on forgiveness, and one of the quotes I recently wrote in my journal was this:

Forgiving is an honest release even though it is done invisibly, within the forgiver's heart. It is honest because it happens along with honest judgement, honest pain, honest hate. True forgivers do not pretend they don't suffer.

 

I highly recommend the book linked above for anyone working through the difficult issue of forgiveness.

[Impish]

I think forgiveness is between one and God.

 

If they don't feel so bad about it, then why try to make them feel worse?

There are those that would call branding a child with a hot iron 'not so bad'. Pedophiles claim to love their victims. I've seen people excuse the abuse they endured because it 'wasn't so bad' in that they weren't killed, heard someone on the news who'd been through worse, they weren't left with physical scars, ER trips, etc.

 

I think the ability to be fully honest about the situation is needed. Otherwise, they're still hiding the full impact, etc, and how can you forgive what you cannot fully acknowledge?

[BMW]

It can depend on the person's age and maturity, too. My children were abused and we were told, at times, it "wasn't that bad" and I was not allowed to speak of the physical abuse. We were told that emotional and verbal abuse was not real. We were told those things by pastors. So, in this situation, I think they would need to think carefully through what happened, acknowledge it and not make excuses for the abuser... mental health isn't just "I forgive him". You have to be honest about the situation. And, if it was covered up, like ours was, they may get more angry before they can forgive... It can be a long road.

[lionfamily1999]

There are those that would call branding a child with a hot iron 'not so bad'. Pedophiles claim to love their victims. I've seen people excuse the abuse they endured because it 'wasn't so bad' in that they weren't killed, heard someone on the news who'd been through worse, they weren't left with physical scars, ER trips, etc.

 

I think the ability to be fully honest about the situation is needed. Otherwise, they're still hiding the full impact, etc, and how can you forgive what you cannot fully acknowledge?

 

Yes, and perhaps one person's "honest," especially an 'outsider' to that situation, and another's (like the one that experienced it) could be very different things. I'm not comfortable with the idea of judging someone's forgiveness, whether or not it's 'honest' or good enough. THAT, is between them and God. God knows their heart.

 

I think that a lot of wrong could result from digging around in this. I mean, why create bitterness or resentment where it does not yet exist? That does happen. Ime, another perso's 'helpful' digging can result in more indignation than the 'victim' was originally saddled with. If the idea is to release yourself from that burden and release them from the burden of that sin against you, then what purpose does all this "honesty" serve?

[Garga]

When I was going through unforgiveness, I had the help of a woman at my church who is trained in counselling people with these sorts of issues. Here's what she did.

 

My issue: I needed to forgive other children from my childhood who bullied me. It would still bring me to (great big sloppy) tears in my 30s. I felt a heaviness whenever I thought about it and would catch myself having daydreams of doing something mean to these people if I met them as an adult. (Like kicking them out of my house into a snow storm or something goofy like that.)

 

1. I had to go home and write a list of every single child I could remember, what they did to me, and exactly how it made me feel.

 

2. I came to a session with her and prayed the following way:

 

Jesus, when (person's name) did (what they did) to me, it made me feel (how I felt.) I forgive them.

 

For example: When Becky, who was supposed to be my best friend, laughed at me when the John and Jay were picking on me in gym class, I felt betrayed and a trusting part of me died a little that day. I forgive her.

 

I went down the whole list, one by one.

 

Afterwards, the weight was completely gone. It's been a year now and I never dwell on my past anymore and I don't feel any need to cry over it anymore, and I've stopped having mean daydreams about my old bullies.

[momtoboys]

Thanks for all the different perspectives. Definitely gives me something to think about before I talk to her again! I appreciate it.

[Laurie4b]

Isn't it possible that forgiveness can be one of those onion metaphors? Perhaps if your friend forgives this person for those "few things," in time, she will peel yet another layer for a few more things.

 

I don't think forgiveness is as always as easy as one big "OKAY, I FORGIVE HIM!" Especially when we're talking about a parent whose influence was (is?) so very strong and the memories are so very hurtful.

 

I think this is exactly it. People do forgive in layers, as they understand what happened. I would err on the side of using the person's own words or just use the phrase "sinned against"--after all in the Lord's prayer, that's pretty much the way it's stated. I think it's okay to share once what you think: "You know, most people would call that abuse," but I don't think it's necessary to push it further. You open up the door to their own processing by labeling it as you see it, but what you see is your own perspective as well.

 

For some people, it is very helpful for them to write it down. Then, there is a behavioral description. (What you're going after with the "abuse" word is a qualitative description.) The Bible also uses the word "debts" and "debtors" and I've found that people are sometimes helped by putting a metaphoric dollar amount on what they were owed and what they're forgiving.

[PineFarmMom]

Yes, and perhaps one person's "honest," especially an 'outsider' to that situation, and another's (like the one that experienced it) could be very different things. I'm not comfortable with the idea of judging someone's forgiveness, whether or not it's 'honest' or good enough. THAT, is between them and God. God knows their heart.

 

I think that a lot of wrong could result from digging around in this. I mean, why create bitterness or resentment where it does not yet exist? That does happen. Ime, another perso's 'helpful' digging can result in more indignation than the 'victim' was originally saddled with. If the idea is to release yourself from that burden and release them from the burden of that sin against you, then what purpose does all this "honesty" serve?

 

 

I do see your point. I will say that I had things that really bothered me that went on as a kid/teen and I never was really able to nail it down or get past the pain, face it, heal from it, and forgive until I fully acknowledged that it was sin and wrongs against me, straight up and down. It also enabled me to call it what it was and make no excuses for that person. The big help was that knowing how wrong it was, I wouldn't repeat those behaviors and make excuses for them myself. I do think there's a purpose to it. It's not so much for further indignation/anger as it is to call it wrong if it was wrong. I had my own sins that I didn't really want to call for what they were. I had a friend who helped me to finally say the words that those things were, and as appalled and sorry as I was for my own wrongs, there was more healing and forgiveness and freedom from that than had I just kept on excusing it or blaming it on some other circumstance.

 

I agree with Garga and have had an experience much like that. I didn't need to go to a therapist or deal with my junk for years on end. Giving it to Christ with the help of a prayer partner and laying it all down and Him healing was the work it actually took.

[*Inna*]

Garga, thank you so much for posting this.

I am struggling with unforgiveness and it's torturing me. I will try this method.

[Joanne]

I think "forgiveness" is jumping the gun.

 

It sounds like this person has some unfinished business from the past. Jumping to forgiveness doesn't heal or process that business.

 

I believe in forgiveness; lack of forgiveness is like taking poison yourself and hoping the other person suffers.

 

However, I've seen "forgiveness" become like a spiritual panacea, a cheap religious tactic (lest anyone think I am being critical of Christianity yet again, I've seen it also in New Age, "spiritual", 12 step and other approaches, too.)

 

Recovering from trauma, abuse, boundary violations........whatever..........is a process, a journey and a path. It's not a one time event.

 

I don't think your person is ready for forgiveness. It's possible professional help may be of benefit sometime.

[momtoboys]

It's possible professional help may be of benefit sometime.

 

:iagree:

 

I do agree w/ this. But if someone comes to me with something serious, I feel like I want to help them. . even if I'm not totally qualified.

 

So that's why I do what I can to help.

[PineFarmMom]

It's possible professional help may be of benefit sometime.

 

:iagree:

 

I do agree w/ this. But if someone comes to me with something serious, I feel like I want to help them. . even if I'm not totally qualified.

 

So that's why I do what I can to help.

 

And you're right to do that. I think professional help is needed A LOT less often than people are led to believe.

 

I always think of Corrie ten Boom and the huge amount of forgiveness she had to deal with...more than any of us. She was abused in a concentration camp physically, mentally and emotionally. Her sister whom she loved dearly was killed. God gave her the ability to forgive because she chose it. She didn't sit through endless counseling sessions for years on end. She knew it was what He wanted of her, she chose it, then He provided the freedom from the anger she was dealing with.

[Harriet Vane]

The other posters have offered some excellent thoughts.

 

One further thought:

 

It can be hard to call something abusive when the victim loves the abuser at some level. It can also be hard to call something abusive when the victim can clearly remember that not all moments or actions with that person were abusive. It becomes very difficult to condemn the whole person of the abuser when the victim remembers better moments with the abuser as well as the difficult ones. Therefore the victim somehow needs to be able to call the abuse what it is without, in their own mind, canceling out the better parts of their memories of their abuser. A victim might be in total denial about the severity of what happened--or it is possible that the victim is simply terribly confused about what is abuse because of their love for the abuser or their memories of some better times with the abuser. I think it is valid for a caring counselor to ask these questions, but not to push for the victim to do or say any specific script. I like the poster who said forgiveness comes in layers--it is very important that the victim be the one fully in charge of peeling those layers rather than having another person's definition of what "full" forgiveness is thrust upon them by someone else.

[Joanne]

The other posters have offered some excellent thoughts.

 

One further thought:

 

It can be hard to call something abusive when the victim loves the abuser at some level. It can also be hard to call something abusive when the victim can clearly remember that not all moments or actions with that person were abusive. It becomes very difficult to condemn the whole person of the abuser when the victim remembers better moments with the abuser as well as the difficult ones. Therefore the victim somehow needs to be able to call the abuse what it is without, in their own mind, canceling out the better parts of their memories of their abuser. A victim might be in total denial about the severity of what happened--or it is possible that the victim is simply terribly confused about what is abuse because of their love for the abuser or their memories of some better times with the abuser. I think it is valid for a caring counselor to ask these questions, but not to push for the victim to do or say any specific script. I like the poster who said forgiveness comes in layers--it is very important that the victim be the one fully in charge of peeling those layers rather than having another person's definition of what "full" forgiveness is thrust upon them by someone else.

 

Related to that, abuse becomes normalized over the course of time. Often, people who have been abused don't actually know it = abuse. Their understanding of normal and acceptable it skewed and so everyday interactions and events don't register on the radar as unacceptable.

[Joanne]

And you're right to do that. I think professional help is needed A LOT less often than people are led to believe.

 

I always think of Corrie ten Boom and the huge amount of forgiveness she had to deal with...more than any of us. She was abused in a concentration camp physically, mentally and emotionally. Her sister whom she loved dearly was killed. God gave her the ability to forgive because she chose it. She didn't sit through endless counseling sessions for years on end. She knew it was what He wanted of her, she chose it, then He provided the freedom from the anger she was dealing with.

 

Most people who avail themselves of counseling don't sit for years on end. The professional trend in contemporary counseling is for short term; not the lengthy psychoanalysis that was common in earlier years of the science/art. Of course there are exceptions to that both from the client and Counselor side.

 

The problem with using an extreme example like Corrie Ten Boom (or imposing the prayer of Assisi, for example) is that average people don't feel inspired; they feel inadequate.

 

God has an amazing, awesome and incredible amount of resources to assist His people on earth, some of them are Counselors. God isn't excluded from a Counselor's office. ;)

[PineFarmMom]

Most people who avail themselves of counseling don't sit for years on end. The professional trend in contemporary counseling is for short term; not the lengthy psychoanalysis that was common in earlier years of the science/art. Of course there are exceptions to that both from the client and Counselor side.

 

The problem with using an extreme example like Corrie Ten Boom (or imposing the prayer of Assisi, for example) is that average people don't feel inspired; they feel inadequate.

 

God has an amazing, awesome and incredible amount of resources to assist His people on earth, some of them are Counselors. God isn't excluded from a Counselor's office. ;)

 

I do agree. Counselors can be beneficial. I'm just seeing repeatedly that Christian counselors who give true Biblical guidance, helpful guidance, are very, very few and far between. Way too much psychology and way too little Bible-centered counseling. "There is a way that seems right unto man..." I think the psychology process often prolongs things because it leads people to blame others for all of their problems rather than calling their own actions sinful as well as those who they are needing to forgive.

 

As for the Corrie ten Boom example, the problem often has to do with the fact that people really don't want to walk at that level of obedience with the Lord to get the kind of freedom she received. She shook the hand and forgave the person who tortured her and was a responsible party to her sister's death...that's big stuff that I can't imagine having the ability to forgive. The reason I can't imagine it is because I *don't* have the ability to forgive that. God can make that type of forgiveness available to anyone, but He's the only one who can do that!! I feel inadequate when faced with Corrie ten Boom as well, but that inadequacy leads back to the Only one who is actually adequate to heal us in the first place. I often think many counselors circle around and around the same human inadequacies rather than laying it in the lap of the only one able to bring about that forgiveness. :)

Edited December 10, 2009 by Texas T

[Joanne]

I think the psychology process often prolongs things because it leads people to blame others for all of their problems rather than calling their own actions sinful as well as those who they are needing to forgive.

 

That is not what is taught in counseling courses or psychological courses. The deterministic view is not encouraged and nearly all contemporary counseling models are about the *client* taking responsibility for current functioning and making changes, and having choice.

 

Granted, the idea of "forgiveness" is not included in a secular course, but sin, forgiveness, etc are surely emphasized and included in Christian counseling training settings.

[momtoboys]

I would personally question, whether in a formal counseling setting, or an informal setting where someone was getting "counsel" from a friend, if it is *really* possible to resolve certain life issues in a very short time.

 

I'm not saying it will take years and years. . but still. . .if someone has lived/grown-up in an abusive situation, it's not as if they can just get over that in a day. I'd like to think there was some sort of magical prayer they could say, and God would make it all better. . .but I don't know that it works like that.

 

But then again, I'm no expert.

[PineFarmMom]

I would personally question, whether in a formal counseling setting, or an informal setting where someone was getting "counsel" from a friend, if it is *really* possible to resolve certain life issues in a very short time.

 

I'm not saying it will take years and years. . but still. . .if someone has lived/grown-up in an abusive situation, it's not as if they can just get over that in a day. I'd like to think there was some sort of magical prayer they could say, and God would make it all better. . .but I don't know that it works like that.

 

But then again, I'm no expert.

 

I don't think it's overnight either.

[LarlaB]

RE forgiveness, it is a process- you forgive again and again until it the 'wound' no longer hurts.

 

RE counseling, just as a physical illness/issue doesn't always require a medical professional, the same is true for emotional/psychological issues. Certainly, you can go to the dr when you sprain your ankle or have a cold (and many do), but it doesn't require professional help. Its not an absolute comparison, but still applicable. Many people feel better 'leaving it to the professionals'- I respectfully disagree. Certainly there are complex, severe situations that are best handled in a professional manner with appropriate standards of care, but there are many situations (even abuse) where a lay-counselor filled with Spirit of God, can administer healing.