staceyobu Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 I know it's probably crazy to purchase TOG for kindergarten. Here's my dilemma... please help me sort out pros/cons/options... We're currently using sonlight p4/5. We've been thoroughly enjoying it. My plan was to purchase core K for next year, see how it went. If we loved it, we could stay with sonlight. If we didn't love it, we could move to TOG for first and get in three complete cycles... However, I've been reading TOG threads like crazy and suddenly considered purchasing it for next year instead. We could start the cycles in K... finish with 11th grade... leave 12th open for community college classes or whatever. We'd also save the money on buying a sonlight core for K. I suppose we could buy neither for K and just decide on one or the other for first... but that doesn't seem like a very fun option! I just can't decide if I want the ease of having all the books and schedule... or all the ideas/questions/activities. AGH! I don't know how I'll pick! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joy at Home Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 I know it's probably crazy to purchase TOG for kindergarten. Here's my dilemma... please help me sort out pros/cons/options... We're currently using sonlight p4/5. We've been thoroughly enjoying it. My plan was to purchase core K for next year, see how it went. If we loved it, we could stay with sonlight. If we didn't love it, we could move to TOG for first and get in three complete cycles... However, I've been reading TOG threads like crazy and suddenly considered purchasing it for next year instead. We could start the cycles in K... finish with 11th grade... leave 12th open for community college classes or whatever. We'd also save the money on buying a sonlight core for K. I suppose we could buy neither for K and just decide on one or the other for first... but that doesn't seem like a very fun option! I just can't decide if I want the ease of having all the books and schedule... or all the ideas/questions/activities. AGH! I don't know how I'll pick! Well, my first reaction was do say SL hands down for this age. Now that I'm thinking about, though, I could be swayed to say TOG; it depends on your long term plans. I used SL from pre-k through Core 7 and switched this year. What makes the younger Cores are the read alouds. SL can't be beat for children's literature and that was my biggest hesitation about switching. The younger cores do not correlate readers/read alouds and history and, in my opinion, there are much better ways to do history in those years without doing a whole core. I would say K, 1, and 2 were lukewarm years for us, Cores 3 and 4 were awesome. If you plan on switching to TOG at some point, I see no reason not to do it now. I would focus on fun, hands on type stuff, while educating yourself on the layout and history for your next go around. You can add in all the great read alouds from SL if you want, so you don't miss the great books. A year or two ago I wouldn't have even considered using TOG for younger kiddos, but the more I use it the more I feel you need to really use it as a tool and take from it what makes sense for you at the time. Don't feel like you need to follow every suggestion, book, idea. Again, there are many gentle, fun things you can be doing for kindergarten history. But if you use TOG to educate YOURSELF, and pull the fun stuff out, use light, enjoyable books, and don't sweat all the other options for older levels, I could see it being a good choice. Good luck!! Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovinmomma Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 But if you use TOG to educate YOURSELF, and pull the fun stuff out, use light, enjoyable books, and don't sweat all the other options for older levels, I could see it being a good choice. Good luck!! Lisa The boldened part really got me thinking. Educating myself is what I really want to be doing in the younger years while things are light for my children. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmsurbat Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 (edited) Disclaimer: I think TOG really shines at the dialectic/rhetoric levels. Personally, I would choose Sonlight K over TOG for the ages of your children. There are WONDERFUL books in that core and they do become family treasures. The guide and books will help keep daily schooling on track, especially important when you have 3 children under 5. I personally don't think it is necessary to be following a history rotation at that age--I would MUCH RATHER pour a *wide* variety of good books into my children. I also know that I would find the extra pages geared for LG (lit worksheets, for example) as busy work. YMMV. I can understand the wanting to education yourself, but there are easier ways than wading through TOG manuals.... For example, buy used BJU Teacher's manuals for High School World and American History--total cost probably will be $50-70. This will give you a COMPLETE coverage of World/US history vs. 4 Volumes of TOG. The teacher's manual has all the content of the student books PLUS scads of commentary in the side bars--some relating to custom, culture, other important people, points to consider, connections to make. Really. You can see samples at BJU. Set yourself a goal to read a chapter every week or two. By the time your kinder is in third grade, you should have a good grasp of world/US history. If you want to focus on a particular era (eg. Ancient History), pick up SWB's Anc. History book for adults. If you don't have the time to work through that, just reading/listening to SWB's Story of the World will quickly give *you* an excellent overview and be enjoyed by your crew at a later date. And don't forget the *many* free offerings at http://www.mainlesson.com There are quite a number of comprehensive, narrative selections covering all aspects of world and US history (except modern--not in the public domain, yet). Another good way to self-educate: Borrow some of the many Teaching Company courses from your local library. I like the audio courses better, in general, because I can be working in the kitchen and improving myself at the same time.... Anyway, I recommend Sonlight over TOG for Kinder-4th. TOG over Sonlight for High school. And MOH for those middle years in between. :) HTH, Edited November 16, 2009 by vmsurbat typo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G5052 Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 I used 2 cores of Sonlight, then did 2 years of TOG, then did 4 cores of Sonlight. We also played around with Galloping the Globe at one point. I came out deciding that Sonlight was best for our family. The books and schedule were just right for us, particularly for the grade school years. We are now involved in an academic co-op that works for us, but I have very fond memories of the Sonlight years and wish that I had just stuck with it versus trying to make TOG work for us for two years. Yes, it's a great program and I was blessed to be GIVEN a copy of it, so I truly tried to make it work. The reality was that I liked the Sonlight books better, we got more done with Sonlight, and using it for self-education was unwieldy for me. It was overboard for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bethben Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 I did Sonlight for K and it was a great year. It helped educate me in how to become a teacher and how to schedule work. It gave me an idea about how much reading/activities per day is reasonable. Some people say that it jumps all over the place, but it's kindergarten and they don't even notice. My son still independently reads some of the history books from that year in his free time. Currently, we are doing TOG with my 3rd grader who is upper grammar/ lower grammar. I have wanted to do TOG since my oldest was in K and just felt like it was overwhelming (which it turned out it wasn't). I will start a K next year and only read the literature because the history in lower grammar would be over his head. He'll do some activities and it will be a good introduction to TOG. I don't know if I would have started with TOG in K. For me personally, I wasn't that good at knowing what to keep and what to toss and even knowing how much could be done in a day. I didn't know how to schedule out a week. So, just consider that when you're trying to figure out what to do. Beth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 You seem to have a few mistakes in your thinking. First, doing SLK would not preclude doing activities. Just get some activity books to go along with it. You know what would be even MORE fun and would have the activities you're wanting? Winter Promise. You could do WP Animal Worlds with those ages and havea ton of fun. Then slide right into their WP American Story 1 and 2. I think what you're really saying is you want SL with more hands-on, and that's what WP is. Now, as far as the logic of saving money by using TOG, I don't see it. It uses just as many books or more. I'd suggest you start thinking about how your dc pair. I wouldn't bother with the expense of a full history program this coming year. Do something fun when they're 5.5, 3, and 1. Then the following year start SOTW1 (which has a fun-packed activity guide, btw) when they're 6.5, 4, and 2. That would make a lot more sense, because then they'll be old enough to do it together. With 5 and 3, you're sort of teaching above all of them, kwim? I'd do fun things like a country study (Galloping the Globe), survey of american with picture books, WP AW, that sort of thing for a year or two then plunk your money into a history program when the two oldest can do it together. As for Vicki's suggestion to get tm's, that's really whitty! When my dd was the age of your oldest, I had tried reading a BJU text, just the text. It didn't go very well, and I'm thinking I would have done much better with the tm. As she says, the tm's add a lot. They are pretty affordable used, so it's definitely worth searching out. Or pick something like SWB's Story of the Ancient World and start reading. You could read that this year, then read a church history next year (Schaff is recommended around here), and read Paul Johnson's history of the US after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloha2U Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 I'd suggest you start thinking about how your dc pair. :iagree: Great advice! staceyobu - I hope you find what works for you and your dc. I definitely understand how having so many wonderful options can be a bit overwhelming, making it difficult to decide what will be the best fit and when. You've received some great feedback, so my only contribution is that I encourage you to pray about it - not forgetting to consult the hubby too. ;) I'm often amazed at the light my better half sheds on my curriculum predicaments. :p As for Vicki's suggestion to get tm's, that's really whitty! When my dd was the age of your oldest, I had tried reading a BJU text, just the text. It didn't go very well, and I'm thinking I would have done much better with the tm. As she says, the tm's add a lot. They are pretty affordable used, so it's definitely worth searching out. OhElizabeth - I'm currently in the situation you mentioned about reading just the text, and find it curious that you went down that path too. ;) Using BJUP's Heritage Studies 2 and ABeka's My America, for US History read alouds, is not really turning out the way I had envisioned. That said and although a bit dry, it doesn't mean they haven't been... umm, interesting(?)... or at least not a complete waste of time, I hope. :tongue_smilie: Hmm... maybe I'll try looking at the tm's as suggested. Meanwhile, I need to tap into Scholastic's "If you lived..." series of books and the likes, that I already have on hand. Sorry, just brainstorming. BTW, thanks for the reminder on WP's America Story 1 & 2... I'll go check out their recommended books for US History. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vmsurbat Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 : Using BJUP's Heritage Studies 2 and ABeka's My America, for US History read alouds, is not really turning out the way I had envisioned. That said and although a bit dry, it doesn't mean they haven't been... umm, interesting(?)... or at least not a complete waste of time, I hope. :tongue_smilie: Hmm... maybe I'll try looking at the tm's as suggested. Meanwhile, I need to tap into Scholastic's "If you lived..." series of books and the likes, that I already have on hand. Sorry, just brainstorming. Just to clarify: When I suggested the BJU Teacher's Manuals above, it was for the *mother's* educational benefit--going through the high school Teacher Manual's will give both an overview of history and Christian commentary on many events/persons/trends. I never used BJU elementary history books--but the meat of BJU texts is almost *always* found in the teacher manuals--at any level. I have always found it helpful to look at the generous (usually 1 complete chapter) samples at BJU's website. I do have several of BJU's books from 7th grade and up--and the teacher manuals have the info to tie lessons together, points of discussion, and more. I've used them as a spine for moving through history (MOH only went through the Middle Ages with my last jr. higher--we finished that rotation with BJU's 7th grade book--picks up with a brief review of MA). So, I am not sure that you will want the TM's for grade 2--maybe you do, take a look at the samples. But I *can* highly recommend that you pull out your "If You Lived..." series--those were BIG hits around here from 1st-4/5th grade..... HTH, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homeschooling6 Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 I would go with SL for kinder. That was one of 'my' favorite years. Loved it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloha2U Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Just to clarify: When I suggested the BJU Teacher's Manuals above, it was for the *mother's* educational benefit--going through the high school Teacher Manual's will give both an overview of history and Christian commentary on many events/persons/trends. I never used BJU elementary history books--but the meat of BJU texts is almost *always* found in the teacher manuals--at any level. I have always found it helpful to look at the generous (usually 1 complete chapter) samples at BJU's website. I do have several of BJU's books from 7th grade and up--and the teacher manuals have the info to tie lessons together, points of discussion, and more. I've used them as a spine for moving through history (MOH only went through the Middle Ages with my last jr. higher--we finished that rotation with BJU's 7th grade book--picks up with a brief review of MA). So, I am not sure that you will want the TM's for grade 2--maybe you do, take a look at the samples. But I *can* highly recommend that you pull out your "If You Lived..." series--those were BIG hits around here from 1st-4/5th grade..... HTH, LOL! OK, I just realized that very thing and came back to clarify, myself, but you've already taken care of it. :tongue_smilie: Boy, don't I feel silly. :blush: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staceyobu Posted November 16, 2009 Author Share Posted November 16, 2009 You seem to have a few mistakes in your thinking. First, doing SLK would not preclude doing activities. Just get some activity books to go along with it. You know what would be even MORE fun and would have the activities you're wanting? Winter Promise. You could do WP Animal Worlds with those ages and havea ton of fun. Then slide right into their WP American Story 1 and 2. I think what you're really saying is you want SL with more hands-on, and that's what WP is. Now, as far as the logic of saving money by using TOG, I don't see it. It uses just as many books or more. Don't give me more options!!!! ;) It's not that I just want sonlight WITH hands on... I guess I was just thinking in general the TOG materials include so much that Sonlight doesn't. I mean... the week schedule for sonlight is one page. The week stuff for TOG is like 40 pages! I guess I was figuring it would save money to purchase TOG if I planned on using it all the way through. For example, if I used sonlight through 5th grade and purchased all those cores... then decide to switch to TOG and purchase four rotations. It would be double cost. If I started with TOG, I would get more for my money in the long run... I do have my western civ books from college still... I could read those for some history background as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HSMom2One Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Don't give me more options!!!! ;) It's not that I just want sonlight WITH hands on... I guess I was just thinking in general the TOG materials include so much that Sonlight doesn't. I mean... the week schedule for sonlight is one page. The week stuff for TOG is like 40 pages! I guess I was figuring it would save money to purchase TOG if I planned on using it all the way through. For example, if I used sonlight through 5th grade and purchased all those cores... then decide to switch to TOG and purchase four rotations. It would be double cost. If I started with TOG, I would get more for my money in the long run... I do have my western civ books from college still... I could read those for some history background as well... It would make perfect sense to me to buy TOG and use it for as many rotations as your dc need. The only cost beyond that would be age appropriate resource books for each rotation. If I could go back a few years and start over, that is what I would do. Blessings, Lucinda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 CMama-The BJU Heritage Studies series is teacher-driven, with the meat in the tm. The writing is on grade level and meant to be read by the student. (In other words, bleh.) I would pursue the lowest level book by Eggleston or the Rainbow Book of American History by Daugherty or any of the younger books from CLP (look at MFW Adventures to get ideas) or the 100 Stories book used as the spine in WP AS 1. But it's illogical to use that book from WP now if you might want to do that core later. So yes, you have plenty of good options. Reading aloud the BJU textbook would distinctly NOT be a good option, yuck, gross... :) You could even do MFW Adventures with an interested 5yo, I think. Or start WP AS1 next year. Have you seen the Galloping the Globe or Cantoring the Country materials? They're a lot of fun for this age. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Well I see your logic with the buy now, buy once thing. I wonder what the likelihood is though of you sticking with it? Are you the type to get bored? Lots of people do. 12 years with one curriculum would drive many people insane. You could get grass is greener syndrome and find yourself shopping, hopping, buying, changing over the years... There's a reason boards like this exist, and there's a reason so many of us have tried so much stuff. The likelihood of you sticking with one thing like glue for 12 years is about nil. :) I'm just trying to be your reality check. You asked, so there you go. You know the best way to handle your curiousity and need to touch? Order a unit. Actually, now they have those free units you can print! I suggest you pick one, print it out, and start using it. After you've used it for a month, you'll have a much better sense of whether it's a good idea for right now. And if it's not good now, it may be good later. I wouldn't even CONSIDER buying TOG in your shoes without trying one of those free samples units first. They have very fast shipping, so I'm sure you'll have the following units very quickly (or the DE, as you prefer) when you're done with that unit and decide to take the plunge. Nothing says if you went with SL you'd stick with it for so long either. People get into this stuff and find their groove. You're going to also. You're going to realize you like the books but not the IG. You're going to find used cores. You're going to make friends online and trade cores. You're going to realize one year you want to do cyber school because life is hectic. Another year your dd will want a year off for Prairie Primer. The likelihood of you sticking with any one thing, no matter how great, the whole way through is SO LOW. I just wouldn't make decisions that way. As far as those ideas I gave you, they're because I've btdt and own stuff. I bought a unit of TOG when I was at your stage, so I've been where you are. You'll notice I didn't go on to use it. There were definitely things I liked about it, but there are pros and cons to everything. I've come to realize over the years that I need the simplest option to get me through day-to-day, and extras for when I have a bit extra to give. So my own sweet spot is a straightforward spine, something I can just pick up and read. I can't say what it will be for you, but I can say that I wouldn't invest heavily till you know what suits you and your littles best. Try the free units, get into it before you spend a lot of money. Simple methods will get you there. You can spend $20 and pick up SOTW and an AG with activities, or you can spend lots of money on a year of TOG and still need books. Think simple. Simple gets done. Simple is fun. Simple leaves you less stressed, spending more time with your kids and less planning. Well there. I've said it all. Have fun with whatever you decide! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aquiverfull Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Elizabeth, can't you just come live at my house and give me pep talks like this? :D Your post are so full of wisdom! I can see you saving me lots of money and stress...lol. Seriously though, to the original poster, Elizabeth is so right. I've done exactly what she's described above. SL, WP, MFW.... and that's just history. You name it, I've probably tried it..;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nancy Ann Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 (edited) Hi Stacey, I haven't read all the replies, I am really tired so I hope this is all coherent! :) But I used TOG for my Kindergartner and it went okay. The problem we had was that the literature is not as good, hands down Sonlight has better books. For my young son I really wanted him to enjoy literature and I just did not see that happening. TOG has alot more hands on stuff which is fun but I found TOG really hard to use, it really took alot out of me to plan and implement. I think it would work better with kids that are older and you can assign things to them. It also got boring. My son did not want to spend 10 weeks on the middle ages. Castles and Knights are fun but 10 weeks was just too much. I ended up shortening it to 8 weeks. Many of the books were not interesting to my 5 year old. Lots of the history books had lots of words and not very many pictures and just did not hold his attention. My son likes the Usborne type of non fiction books informative and intersting to look at. There is alot of talk with TOG about starting earlier so you can learn and be better prepared for when they are older, however, my focus was on my childs education at that time. Sonlight and Five in a Row are great curriculums for little kids and I think lots of reading with good literature is key with the younger years. We are using FIAR with lots and lots of library books and that' my plan until 6th grade. Sonlight is also great. TOG just did not have the literature that I wanted and thought was key to this young age, I also was not able to add in more books because the curriculum took enough of our time. If you have several children and have to use 2 or 3 Sonlight Cores, than I see how TOG could be really really good! I will be considering between TOG and Sonlight for 7th grade and on. Edited November 17, 2009 by Nancy Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pata Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 :iagree: with Elizabeth! It takes time to figure out what works for you as a teacher and for your students. I would try the free 3 week sample before I ordered TOG. As for us personally, we loved Sonlight Core K :)! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnandtinagilbert Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 The boldened part really got me thinking. Educating myself is what I really want to be doing in the younger years while things are light for my children. :iagree: Being in our 10th year of home schooling, I encourage you to learn what you can now. Later, there will be little time and much more teaching! Don't give me more options!!!! ;) It's not that I just want sonlight WITH hands on... I guess I was just thinking in general the TOG materials include so much that Sonlight doesn't. I mean... the week schedule for sonlight is one page. The week stuff for TOG is like 40 pages! I guess I was figuring it would save money to purchase TOG if I planned on using it all the way through. For example, if I used sonlight through 5th grade and purchased all those cores... then decide to switch to TOG and purchase four rotations. It would be double cost. If I started with TOG, I would get more for my money in the long run... I would agree that the design of TOG is very beneficial for balancing multi-levels and later on, you can't beat the overall package on price and quality; however let me run something by you. IME, I spent a TON of time on history for our first round. My boys were 5 and 6 and we included little sis(4) in our activities. We used SOTW and read the literature, did the activities. It was fun, BUT Uuummm I won't say waste of time, b/c it helped us with functional things like school time, learning about school schedules and separating play and school times, and we enjoyed the read aloud time, but I put in a TON of effort and there was very little retention. They don't even remember the activities, just stories' details. (narration, narration, narration) Keep it simple! No matter what you choose! You really don't need much for lower grammar history. Literature booklists are Free and abundant, even in chronological listings :) Ambleside, Veritas, and countless others (including archives of this forum). This year, I use TOG with my LG students Only b/c I am using it with my other 3 levels! The list is okay for lower grammar. Nothing to write home about. If I didn't have TOG, I'd stick with the SOTW I already owned and keep it simple. Read. Narrate or notebook. Review notebooks. Do a small project once a week or every other week. Nothing extravagant. Since their interest naturally lies in science, we hit science hard now and cover our literature study using a complete language arts program (The Phonics Road). I have morphed into a LG Charlotte Mason history philosophy, with classical leanings for the rest :) Once they hit 3rd or 4th grade though, TOG means business :) Keep it simple for them. Educate yourself. That's my 2 cents :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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