Am I doing the right thing?

[CAMom]

:confused: I am so frustrated, sad, angry, etc....

 

I am still having a recurring issue with my now 17 year old. He started off the year great but, in the last two weeks, he's slacked way off again. As in he's turning in assignments late and letting them pile up on top of each other and making zero effort to get them done.

 

He's taking several classes through The Potter's School and his grades are going down quickly because of deductions for late work, etc.

 

I told him that I will no longer spend my time and energy pushing him and threatening him to get the work done. I also told him that I will no longer be spending huge amounts of time researching college choices for him. I am done with wasting my time!

 

I did let him know that I am available to help him plan his time, keep him accountable in anyway he thinks would be helpful, etc. but that I would not be the one pushing him.

 

My husband is very close to pulling the plug on speech and debate. I've been cautioning against that because it will put his debate partner in a terrible position of the season being upon us and being left without a partner. I don't think that's necessarily fair to do to this other kid.

 

This has been a problem since he started school! I'm seriously not kidding. But...now he is one year away from being an "adult" and I cannot be the one trying to make things happen for him.

 

Am I wrong on this? Anyone BTDT and have any advice for me on how to motivate him?

 

I have to admit that I feel like a total failure.:( My experience with this child has me very seriously considering putting my little guy in school when he starts K as I don't know if I could even live through this experience again and maintain my health and sanity.

[Starr]

You are not a total failure! We all have to decide how responsible we are going to be at any given time. If he were in school does not guarantee anything would be different. He is still young. I have to say I think I'm with your husband on the speech and debate. I doubt he believes you would pull him out. You might consider keeping him home for a meeting or two and see if things pick up with the school work. Hugs to you. (I'm ready to pull my dc out of a thing or two because when the time gets tough it's the school work that doesn't get done.)

[Cedarmom]

:grouphug:

 

Don't be too hard on yourself, it's very hard to motivate a 17 yr old who doesn't do the work. On speech and debate, I agree with you pulling him out would not be fair to his partner. I would enforce not researching debate until other school is done (maybe you don't have this problem, I do though!) Also on speech and debate, if he is doing that he is learning and doing a lot.

[Sophia]

Ds's Speech and Debate partner dropped out on him last year and it was soooo wrong of her (and her parents!) to do that to him.

That is a huge commitment that should have been thought of prior to partnering up.

Honestly, if he is doing well with that, then he is learning a lot about research and deadlines, right?

I'm sorry Potter's School isn't working; TPS really helped ds get his act together last year.

I would definitely stop threatening and start enforcing some logical consequences. I know ds responds to his social life being threatened, and cell phone privileges getting taken away. He also likes working part time for dh, but isn't allowed to if his schoolwork isn't done and signed off by me or dh.

I also told ds last year that I was done trying to help him prepare for his future and pointed out he was going to feel pretty terrible when his friends accomplished their goals and he was still sitting in his room pretending to get work done.

Fortunately, ds is able to look ahead like that and realize he doesn't want a life of "scraping by."

I think his summer job (working for his dad in the trades) helped him get a taste of reality.

Sounds backward, but maybe a peon job somewhere would help him realize what he's sentencing himself to if his work ethic doesn't improve?

:grouphug: My ds drove me nuts last year, hope you can find something he responds to.

[Michelle in AL]

Is anything distracting him?

 

We had a recent situation with dd: tired, grades slipping slightly, not having a clue as to what she supposedly read.

 

She was doing most of her school in her room. After a little investigation I found out she was texting every 2-3 minutes during her online classes and staying on the computer into all hours of the night. She swore she wan't doing this.

 

Now, computer and i-pod touch are totally out of her room. No phone during school hrs and after 9pm. I've seen a change already.

 

Could something similar be going on with you son?

[Julie in MN]

Ds's Speech and Debate partner dropped out on him last year and it was soooo wrong of her (and her parents!) to do that to him.

That is a huge commitment that should have been thought of prior to partnering up.

 

Honestly, if he is doing well with that, then he is learning a lot about research and deadlines, right?

 

:iagree:

 

If debate is the one "school" area that he's excelling in, then I wouldn't cancel that! I'd cancel non-school stuff like video games & cell phones, but nothing even remotely educational.

 

JMHO.

[WTMCassandra]

Take this with a grain of salt, because my children aren't as old as 17, but the first thing I thought of was WORK.

 

So he doesn't want to do school. No problem. In the real world, this means manual labor will be your life. So I would let or make (your choice ; ) ) him "drop out" except for debate and get a job. (I agree with the other posters not to quit debate because of the partner.) Let it be a physically demanding, repetitive job. Seriously. Give him a taste of what his life will be like if he stays on this course. He might change his mind in a hurry ; ).

 

Or, he might just find his niche, what he loves to do. He might stay doing that, or he might decide to go for college later. That can be a good thing, for him to go when he is ready and motivated, instead of you trying to push a limp rope uphill.

 

And hugs to you. Don't project this child's attitude upon your other child. Your second one could be a totally different experience. He is not fated to follow exactly in your older son's footsteps. He might even be a healing experience for you to homeschool. You never know!

[mom2paul]

I had a very hard year with my 14 year old for 9th grade. Lack of interest, assignments were not completed or even ignored. I took a long hard look at our curriculum and changed everything. He was on a textbook program and was bored out of his mind...this following a year of very interesting literature based history and co-ops. What was I thinking? Now that we've made the switch, (DS chose much of the curriculum) he is interested in his schoolwork and loves to discuss what he is learning.

 

However - issues do still arise, but not to the degree as before. When they do, there are consequences: DS loves his computer - that gets taken away. The Ipod goes in the drawer, and I am debating whether to send him to the concert here Saturday night with his homeschool friends because he ignored a writing deadline last week. We live on a few acres and leaves are falling everywhere -- so raking needs done.

 

I wonder if there is a certain dynamic that happens with adolescent boys and mothers? Perhaps turning our sons over to their fathers and let them handle issues like rebellion and laziness is key.

[8filltheheart]

I was in a similar (but not equal) situation earlier this yr.

 

My ds is a senior and will be 18 in Feb. He is extremely intelligent but even more immature. (He is an Aspie.) He refused to do his school work while simultaneoulsy insisting he was going to medical school. (This is where the situation is different b/c our ds has a serious disconnect between goals and reality.)

 

After weeks of arguing and frustration, I put away every single college prep course I had purchased for him (and which intellectually he was fully capable of achieving. We had already spent thousands of dollars on private school in 10th and 11th hoping to inspire him to understand studying/deadlines, etc mean something) Dh and I had serious discussion with him about the fact that he is only months away from adulthood and that since he refused to complete the academic courses we had gotten for him that we were no longer going to finance any attempt at a university. Period. (This is simply reality. There are far too many children for us to support for us to throw away money on a child that is not going to apply himself to the realities of what is expected.)

 

So, he has to be able to support himself in short order. We told he had 2 choices: work as a completely unskilled worker doing something like bagging/cashier at a grocery store or explore different trade courses this yr and if completes them in a serious manner, we will pay for him to enroll in the trade courses. If he wants to go to university later, it will now be completely up to him.

 

The seriousness of the situation has finally sunk in. He selected 3 trade courses and an accounting program to work through. He is taking them seriously and is now starting to consider the reality that faces him over the next several months.

 

At some point it is no longer our responsibility but their own. They have to understand that those decisions do impact their future options.

[Faithr]

Here are my scattered responses:

 

1) Ever heard of 'senior slump' otherwise known as a bad case of burnout?

2) He's almost 18, you have to let him fail or let him pull himself up by his own bootstraps. It sounds like you might be inclined to micromanaging things. (Sorry, don't mean to be harsh!)

3) Why don't you ask him what the problem is? Won't he answer honestly? If he says he hates schooling than he's got to decide if his future goals require him to bit down his hate and just get going. If he just can't swing that, then he's got to come up with another plan.

4) I wouldn't take away debate. That's a wonderful life and academic endeavor that he's doing well in AND that requires him to be responsible. Why get rid of the one thing that is going well. It just sounds so retributive!

5) You can't live his life for him, he's got to make the choices himself.

6) Teens are hard and letting go is hard. You have my utmost empathy!

[Gwen in VA]

Keep pointing him toward the future.

 

What does he want to do? Is he interested in college -- or not? If he isn't interested in college, his slump may have to do with him feeling out of control -- that you ware driving him toward something he doesn't want.

 

If he does want college (or law school or something that requires college), remind him of what he needs to do to get there. Work backwards from the future to the present. Point out that law school requires college requires having taken certain subjects in high school and done well in them.

 

If he doesn't want college, then what? Is he interested in saddle-making or gardening or model rockets or community theater or ....... Help him find something he IS interested in and that does want to do!

 

Speech and debate -- my kids have dropped out of speech and debate twice. It takes a ridiculous amount of time, and at least in our area a huge number of the kids who were really really into it made speech and debate their academic focus for the year. We wouldn't do that -- it was always an extracurricular for us -- so some years the kids could handle it on top of schoolwork and some years they couldn't. (The years my kids dropped out they either were each other's partner or they were doing L-D and had no partner -- they never stranded anyone!)

 

Figure out if S&D is his life and really meaningful to him or not. If it's just another activity and it's messing up his academics, it has to go. Period. But if it's his life and he hates the rest of his academics, I'd be reluctant to have him drop it. Two of the kids who basically did S&D instead of normal academics went to Grove City and did very well......

[Leonor]

Is there any other activity or something that he enjoys that you could pull the plug on? Is he on e-mail, gchat, facebook, texting, anything that you could pull the plug on even if he is discussing debate.

 

I agree that you should not pull the plug on Debate because there is a partner you are letting down. That would only teach him that he can commit to something and then if he can't come through drop it. If it were something that he is only hurting himself but he is hurting someone else---someday that could turn out to be a very selfish attitude.

 

I have had a similar situation. My ds does speech and debate and teen court. I have said that if the work isn't done then we don't go to teen court. It has worked.

Now, there is a difference between the work not getting done because of time management issues and just plain not caring. It seems like your son tends to spend a lot of time on what he likes---debate. My ds was spending all day with gchat open as he did schoolwork discussing debate/philosophy. We pulled the plug on it.

 

There was a great article in THe Old Schoolhouse written by Kim of Writeshop titled College Prep 101 talking about preparing kids not just to get into college but to be prepared for it.

 

You are not a failure! He is a teenage boy. It can be very frustrating. Especially when they do want to go to college and are gifted and talented. Putting your little one in school is a different decision not to be based on this issue. I'll be praying for you.

[Pam L in Mid Tenn]

He is almost an adult and needs to feel that he is in control of his life. My 17 dd does much better when I step back and give her some of the control over things. She has been very sick for months and letting her decide on the pace of things has GREATLY helped her attitude.

 

If he is doing the speech and debate, then he must be researching, writing, speaking, debating, meeting deadlines, getting to the practices, etc. That is all great, so don't drop that.

 

Let him be in charge of the Potter's School classes, if he gets a low grade because of late assignments, then he'll see the direct reason for his grade.

 

If he wants to go to college, then let him do all the work for that. Yes, you might need to help him with some paperwork or drive him to visit a campus, but let him take the lead.

 

I recently gave dd16 a list of 4 short reports to do for her music appreciation book. I told her the deadline was the last week of this semester. She has weeks to do it. At the beginning of that week if she only has 1 paper turned in, I'll tell her that is 25% , an F, for that portion of her grade. I'll then give her to Friday to turn in the rest of the papers. THAT will motivate that particular child.

 

I could have written your post. I feel like a total failure this year.

[CAMom]

Thank you so much for your help and perspective! You all always prove to be so measured and reasonable in your responses and I feel very confident that I will receive objective advice here!

 

I'll make some clarifications and answer some of the questions so that, hopefully, you all will be able to really help me hone in on what is going on with this kid and what I should be doing.

 

The first thing is: Yes! He definitely wants to go to college. In fact, his college aspirations are set very high and he desires very competitive schools. He wants to major in some field of science (either biology or physics or some specialty of one or both) and has since he could talk.

 

So, I've spent countless hours researching admissions pages, seeking out advice on what to have him do to make him appealing to those types of school, helping him choose which classes he needs, investigating which types of standardized tests he needs to take and arranging the dates, etc.

 

What I've told him is that I am no longer going to invest my time and energy in these pursuits if he's not willing to put in the work on his end. This is what I'm not sure if I'm doing right. I don't want him to think I've abandoned him but I want him to understand that he's nearly an adult and he has to start taking some responsibility.

 

I've also tried to explain to him that I will not be there for him when he's in college to manage his time for him or to be ever standing over him telling him when to do what and reminding him when things are due. I'm trying to show him that he has to stand on his own.

 

I've tried to make it clear that this is not the end of the road so to speak. When he shows that he is willing to make an effort on his part, ie complete his work on time, make an attempt to manage his time, stop spending his time on pursuits other than school work (for him, this is usually online debating) then I will be happy to resume my work on his behalf.

 

It has also been made clear that we will not pay for a 4 year school if he chooses not to make an effort in high school. I suppose that could be a moot point since, if he lets his gpa get too low, he wouldn't be getting accepted anywhere anyway. He knows that he will continue to have a place to live here and that we will very happily send him to community college while he will have to have a job and pay rent, etc.

 

So, my main question/concern is: Is this a reasonable approach for us to take with him or is there some flaw in my thinking on it?

 

I am very willing to be corrected. I'm willing to modify or change my plan altogether.

 

I'll answer some other things in another post. I know it's hard to read posts that are really long.:)

Edited November 12, 2009 by CAMom

[CAMom]

2) He's almost 18, you have to let him fail or let him pull himself up by his own bootstraps. It sounds like you might be inclined to micromanaging things. (Sorry, don't mean to be harsh!)

 

Who me?:lol::lol: Yes, I do tend to be a micromanager and I'm trying to reform!

 

3) Why don't you ask him what the problem is? Won't he answer honestly? If he says he hates schooling than he's got to decide if his future goals require him to bit down his hate and just get going. If he just can't swing that, then he's got to come up with another plan.

 

This is a big source of my frustration. I've asked him and asked him and asked him and he just says, "I don't know." I've asked him how he would like me to help him or if he even wants my help at all. I've asked him for his ideas on what would work better for him and he says he has no ideas.

 

4) I wouldn't take away debate. That's a wonderful life and academic endeavor that he's doing well in AND that requires him to be responsible. Why get rid of the one thing that is going well. It just sounds so retributive!

 

Yes, I agree. I, personally, also would like to keep debate in his life because it aids his building of relationships. This is a kid who would be happy to spend every minute by himself. He's an extreme introvert (not really shy but 100% introverted) so speech and debate forces him to learn to deal with people. It's really bringing him out of his shell and I feel that is very important.

 

I'll talk to my husband again about this and see if we can come to an agreement on keeping it in.

 

5) You can't live his life for him, he's got to make the choices himself.

 

This is what my husband keeps telling me.:tongue_smilie:

 

6) Teens are hard and letting go is hard. You have my utmost empathy!

 

Yes it is! Thank you for the empathy!

 

Let him be in charge of the Potter's School classes, if he gets a low grade because of late assignments, then he'll see the direct reason for his grade.

 

This is definitely where I'm headed. I think I'll just ask him a couple of times per day, "Do you need my help on anything? Is there anything coming up that I need to sign off on for you for TPS?" And then just letting it go if he says nothing even if I know that he really does need me for something?

 

Is there any other activity or something that he enjoys that you could pull the plug on? Is he on e-mail, gchat, facebook, texting, anything that you could pull the plug on even if he is discussing debate.

 

I guess so. He spends time engaging in online debates. Question is...how do I know how he's spending his time at any given moment? That's my struggle. Obviously I know he's spending time on other things than schoolwork because that's not getting done but how do I make sure he's not spending time on other things? Virtually everything is done in front of the computer screen.

 

Do you ever walk through your house and see the clutter, the list of things to do, and all the (boring) chores waiting to be done, and get that overwhelmed feeling? Thinking to yourself, "Where do I begin? I can't stand this!" Only to promptly plop yourself down in front of the computer to read this forum instead of doing your homemaker work? Could you call yourself lazy? Distracted? Unmotivated? Well, sure.

 

Is he off by himself? (boring) How are his organizational skills? Maybe "a few" Potter's school classes were two too many. Does he know how to schedule and pace himself? (Maybe he still needs more interaction and guidence.)

 

Yes! I certainly do!:)

 

He is off by himself most of the time but he actually likes it that way. I mentioned above that he is an extreme introvert so he much prefers to be on his own.

 

His organizational skills are terrible!:tongue_smilie: He does not seem to know how to schedule or pace himself. I've done everything I know how to do to help him learn these skills but he doesn't (or can't seem to) apply them. I'm totally open to suggestions on how to help him on that!

 

I've even gone as far as to sit down with him and map out daily schedules to manage his work. He always seems open to the help but then will not follow what we put out there. He feels like a written schedule is stifling and he feels like it's micromanaging him but, obviously, no schedule doesn't work either.:tongue_smilie:

 

As for the TPS classes, he chose them. And, they are classes he really wanted to take. I gave him input on classes I though would be beneficial but he took ownership and chose them. He loves TPS and I know that he would still maintain that he made all the right choices for classes. He just doesn't have the motivation to do the work.

 

I don't know how to help him with the motivation part. That's where it seems to be breaking down.

Edited November 12, 2009 by CAMom

[Faithr]

My current 17 yo son is ADHD. He has a terrible terrible time managing his time, being realistic about how long things take, etc. BUT he has fallen on his face a couple of time and been really humiliated by it, so he learned. And now while he is not great, he is much more conscientious and he will come to me to help him when he knows he needs it.

 

Some folks just have to learn it the hard way. . . .

[outtamyshell]

I'm encouraged by the responses everyone has provided. I think I've got your son's twin sister living at my house. Here's what I did...

 

*I made a list of all I provide for her.

*I made a list of what's expected from her.

*Took away most of her privileges that I've provided (the car, allowance, phone, computer, etc).

*Made it clear she is on her own when she turns 18 at the end of the year. If she doesn't get the grades, complete the apps, and find the money, then she'll be working a no-skill job to support herself. We had all kinds of examples of people to refer to... those who didn't get into college, those who got out of college quickly, those who dragged college out for 10 years, those who never went to college.

 

Our conversation went really well. I was clear that it wasn't punishment, but a reality check for her. She feels like she just found out she is responsible for paying for college. I'm pretty sure this isn't the first time the subject has come up though. I think our plan for college is going to involve my reimbursing her for tuition and books based on her grades. I think she had too much freedom and not enough responsibility before. Her friends all think she's being punished, but she doesn't see it that way. And suddenly she's anxious to get caught up on her schoolwork so she can start working again.

 

I would not 'take away' Speech and Debate. I would consider this a commitment he has made and is expected to follow through on. There would be heck to pay at our house if DD tried to skip out on a commitment she's made to someone.

[Ellie]

It is probable that your little one will be completely different than your big one. :-)

 

You are not a failure. Your ds is old enough to figure these things out on his own, and he chooses not to. His bad, not yours.

 

You're in California, yes? Were I in your position, I'd strongly consider allowing him to take the CHSPE, and have him start taking classes at the junior college.

[Brenda in MA]

I haven't read all the responses, but my first inclination would be to examine everything he's doing, including all his courses and speech/debate and convince myself that given decent motivation, the workload he has in front of him is reasonable.

 

If you think his workload is reasonable, you might consider his reasons for slacking off. I have a son who exhibited this kind of "on again/off again" effort during his entire homeschooling career. What I learned over the years is that when he slacked off, it was often due to some anxiety that he had. This son likes consistency, and whenever he was facing a somewhat major change for him, he became anxious and his work ethic suffered. It was almost as if he was subconsciously trying to 'fail' so he wouldn't have to face the change.

 

I found the only way to productively deal with this was to step in and offer a lot of reassurance and often pull and/or micromanage him through for awhile until he could take the reins again. I worried a lot that I might be doing a disservice by helping him too much, but I've learned over the years that he really needs that "pull" from time to time to get over the hump into a new situation and to feel confident there.

 

He is a freshman in college now living away from home. He did have an anxious first few weeks and called home a lot for reassurance. Once he had met some friends and gotten through the first few exams, he was confident and managing his own time and assignments. My gut told me that he would be OK, and he is. He is looking forward to coming home for Thanksgiving, but he has already said that he is also looking forward to going back to school afterward because he likes his new found independence.

 

I guess what I'm saying is that you know your son best and what motivates him and what he needs to be successful. If he sounds at all like my son, then it's possible that the stress of the impending college decision is weighing on him. Talk to him and your dh; you will know the best approach to take after mulling things over.

 

I know that you said that he is taking courses through Potter's School. If you can, I'd recommend you having him take some courses later this year or next year at a local community college or state college. My son took some CC courses his senior year and reports that these were a huge stepping stone for him and confidence builder in his journey from homeschool to college away from home. We also used Potter's School, and the courses were generally good, but there is no substitue, IMHO, for sitting in a classroom with other students in front of a live teacher. My son found the CC environment very motivating. He worked very hard for those CC teachers and very much enjoyed the experience.

 

Also, just because this son needs a lot of "management" doesn't mean that your other child(ren) will be this way. My younger son is completely different when it comes to interests and motivation.

 

HTH,

Brenda

[Cedarmom]

I think you are right on when you say you are no longer going to do research for colleges for him. That is a very logical step. You don't see him putting in the effort- and therfore you are not motivated. This is a real life consequence. Tell him you may change your mind if you see him really working, but as it is now you've put in your effort. This is not abandoning him, it's asking him to do his share of the work (his school) Maybe stepping out of it will help him to take more responsibility.