How do you pronounce the author's first name Chaim (Potok)?

[teacalm]

Is it "Khayem" or "Kaim"?

 

Thanks so much.

 

Lyn

[Spy Car]

Is it "Khayem" or "Kaim"?

 

Thanks so much.

 

Lyn

 

Neither. "Anglicized" it would be "Haim".

 

But the "Ch" sound properly pronounced is sometimes described as a "throat-clearing noise." This is a sound we don't have in English, but it's similar to "loch" in Scottish, or Bach in German (said the German way).

 

Bill

[OnTheBrink]

Is it "Khayem" or "Kaim"?

 

Thanks so much.

 

Lyn

 

I don't believe you pronounce the C at all. IIRC, it's pronounced "Haim". Rhymes with "maim".

 

Like sometimes you see Hanukkah spelled as Chanukah, but they're pronounced the same.

[teacalm]

Thank you SpyCar and SolaMichella. So, my bil is right. Silent ch as in k, and just haim as in maim. I love his book The Chosen.

[stripe]

I don't believe in English one would say one should pronounce "ch" like a "c" followed by a "h" ("chocolate" isn't pronounced "kahakolet"). It's a separate sound entirely.

 

Hanukkah and Chanukah are pronounced the same, but the Hebrew "Ch" sound (which can be written in Latin letters as either Ch or H) is throatier than a simple "h."

 

I've never heard a Hebrew speaker rhyme "Chaim" with "maim." More like it rhymes with "rhyme."

[Spy Car]

I don't believe you pronounce the C at all. IIRC, it's pronounced "Haim". Rhymes with "maim".

 

:confused:

 

I don't know how you pronounce "maim", but Haim rhymes with..."rhyme" (of all things) :D

 

Like sometimes you see Hanukkah spelled as Chanukah, but they're pronounced the same.

 

Right. But since most Americans can't pronounce a "ch" they pronounce Chanukah as if it's Hanukkah, but the former is "correct."

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

...just haim as in maim.

 

No, No. See above. Haim as in rhyme for an "anglicized" version. A hard "Ch" for a proper pronunciation.

 

I love his book The Chosen.

 

He is a very interesting author.

 

Bill

[stripe]

Listen 1:27 in to this reading of the Chechen alphabet. They do the KH sound, which is pretty much the same as in Hebrew.

 

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Chechen/Alphabet

[Spy Car]

I don't believe in English one would say one should pronounce "ch" like a "c" followed by a "h" ("chocolate" isn't pronounced "kahakolet"). It's a separate sound entirely.

 

Hanukkah and Chanukah are pronounced the same, but the Hebrew "Ch" sound (which can be written in Latin letters as either Ch or H) is throatier than a simple "h."

 

I've never heard a Hebrew speaker rhyme "Chaim" with "maim." More like it rhymes with "rhyme."

 

Yea, you've got it. It's a throat-clearing sound. The back of the throat constricts, and it's like a "dry gargle". But it's short sound. Quite transient. Most people attempting this sound draw it out far too long.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Listen 1:27 in to this reading of the Chechen alphabet. They do the KH sound, which is pretty much the same as in Hebrew.

 

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Chechen/Alphabet

 

Ten points for an obscure post :D

 

But the Chechen Kh doesn't sound like a Hebrew Ch to me :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

[happygrrl]

Good friends have a son with this name. His name rhymes with "time" and begins with that throat clearing sound that we can barely do :). When we are all together my kids try so hard, but it sounds like a room full of people sneezing! For ease, most people call him "Chi" pronounced with a hard C and rhyming with "sky". I am sad about this, but he likes it better than the attention!

[Tree House Academy]

Haim as in rhyme. I learn something new everyday. These poor kids - we teach them that in English ai says (long) A, now we learn that in Chechen (ETA: er...ummm Hebrew I mean), ai says (long) I. Niiiiice. LOL

Edited November 2, 2009 by Tree House Academy

[Spy Car]

Haim as in rhyme. I learn something new everyday. These poor kids - we teach them that in English ai says (long) A, now we learn that in Chechen, ai says (long) I. Niiiiice. LOL

 

It's HEBREW not Chechen :lol:

 

Bill

[Tree House Academy]

Oops...see, I know NOTHING. LOL

 

However, I have had the most fun in the last 10 minutes saying that hack sound at the beginning of his name. I actually enjoy speaking Russian words for the same reason...all the throat sounds.

[Spy Car]

As an aside, "Chaim" means "life" in English.

 

Bill

[stripe]

Ten points for an obscure post :D

 

But the Chechen Kh doesn't sound like a Hebrew Ch to me :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

Really? Not even a little?

 

Okay, try this one.

http://www.akhlah.com/soundfiles/aleph_bet/chet.mp3

 

or this one:

http://www.njop.org/choicealeph.htm

(pick CHET)

[Spy Car]

Oops...see, I know NOTHING. LOL

 

However, I have had the most fun in the last 10 minutes saying that hack sound at the beginning of his name. I actually enjoy speaking Russian words for the same reason...all the throat sounds.

 

You've got to be careful, you can put an eye out with flying spittle if you hit it too hard :lol:

 

I have another story. My day for these.

 

I recently worked on the "L'Chaim: To Life" telethon, and we shot a little promo piece with Larry King at Dodger Stadium to use in television commercials.

 

The problem was Mr King could not say "Chabad" to save his life. He kept saying "Shabad". which isn't even close. Oy Vey!

 

It was so far off I couldn't stand it. So I broke out a microphone, and recorded myself saying "ch", and then spliced myself in on top of his track, so he sounded "perfect."

 

Don't tell anyone! :lol:

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Really? Not even a little?

 

It's more like a Arab kh, but a Hebrew ch is rather distinct coming from the back of the throat rather than the roof of the mouth.

 

Okay, try this one.

http://www.akhlah.com/soundfiles/aleph_bet/chet.mp3

 

or this one:

http://www.njop.org/choicealeph.htm

(pick CHET)

 

These are both pretty bad. The second, especially, is a travesty. She has NO CLUE how to make this sound. Unbelievable :D

 

Bill

[SonshineLearner]

This is too too funny! I can't roll an r to save my life... but I can throw an "HHHHHHgggghh" sound:-) I lived with a Jewish family and the g-ma could actually speak Yiddish.... Anyway... one of the first baby words the little girl said... was "Cholly" baby word for "Challah" bread:-) So cute.... and makes me smile to think of it. She called me... (by herself) Nana.... So, I can say I was a g-ma first. (And boy was it easier:-)

Carrie

[Trixie]

These are both pretty bad. The second, especially, is a travesty. She has NO CLUE how to make this sound. Unbelievable :D

 

Bill

 

I couldn't open the second one; but I agree that the first one isn't great, especially in isolation.

 

Teacalm, try this:

 

http://forvo.com/word/chaim/

[Spy Car]

I couldn't open the second one; but I agree that the first one isn't great, especially in isolation.

 

Teacalm, try this:

 

http://forvo.com/word/chaim/

 

This is better, but still too much "h" sound not enough k. It's too soft. And it's not coming from far enough back in the throat.

 

Bill

[teacalm]

Thanks so much, Spy Car and everyone. If I'm going to keep on reading Potok's books, I should make a good effort to correctly pronounce his name. Great, great author and books.

[Trixie]

This is better, but still too much "h" sound not enough k. It's too soft. And it's not coming from far enough back in the throat.

 

Bill

 

It's a smidgen on the soft side, given that it's pronounced in isolation; but it's a good guideline. And it's pretty close to way the black hatters in my former shul pronounced it in everyday speech. ;)

[iammommy]

Are you a Chabadnik? Funny story about Larry King!

Edited November 2, 2009 by iammommy
typos

[Spy Car]

It's a smidgen on the soft side, given that it's pronounced in isolation; but it's a good guideline. And it's pretty close to way the black hatters in my former shul pronounced it in everyday speech. ;)

 

Way good enough.

 

If one is not a complete nut :lol:

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Are you a Chabadnik? Funny story about Larry King!

 

Funny, but with this avatar one might think so :D

 

I'm not Jewish, but I'm an honorary Chabadnik.

 

Bill

[Ester Maria]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH0agewEmBw&feature=related

08:00 it says "chet", that's the way CH should be pronounced.

 

Also, Chaim should be pronounced as if it was a monosyllabic word. The stress falls on a, it's Chaim, but more like Chaym, as a single unit.

[calandalsmom]

You know all those threads where people can't believe someone doesnt know something?

;)

[stripe]

These are both pretty bad. The second, especially, is a travesty. She has NO CLUE how to make this sound. Unbelievable :D

Thanks, Ester Maria for providing an acceptable version. I was going to demand that Spy Car record his own, as he kept complaining. At least all of mine didn't sound like a simple H sound.

[Trixie]

Thanks, Ester Maria for providing an acceptable version. I was going to demand that Spy Car record his own, as he kept complaining. At least all of mine didn't sound like a simple H sound.

 

Oh, I dunno. The second repetition in the Alef Bet song sounds awfully "h"-y to my ear. :lol:

[Ester Maria]

Oh, I dunno. The second repetition in the Alef Bet song sounds awfully "h"-y to my ear. :lol:

One of the ways to distinguish non-native speakers - of ANY language - is to watch out who "overdoes" things.

Of course that not in every context a sound will sound the same or be equally clear. CH, as well as all other sounds, sometimes gets "swallowed" a little by the context or speed, it's not equally strong every time you pronounce it. It's dictated by the natural flow of the sentence and it doesn't have to be equally strong every time. So yes, there ARE phonetic contexts in which CH might sound more like H with some speakers because of speed or too much CHs/Rs around or whatever, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

 

Same with Hebrew H (hey) sound - more often than not, it's simply "swallowed" in modern Hebrew. When you hear a person who says H every time there theoretically should be one, you know they're most likely not Israeli. Israeli natives, especially the younger generation, tend to swallow H, or half-swallow it, in most contexts.

[asta]

This is one of those threads that makes you realize that you had a really smart, talented mom.

 

Who worked for a rabbi in college.

 

:lol:

 

(my personal pet peeve is listening to bastardized "Spanish" - I have it in me that all Spanish should sound as if it walked straight out of Guaymas, Mexico... LOL)

[kewb]

This thread is my can't believe people don't know it moment. I thought everyone could make the hacking up a fur ball sound to say Chaim.

 

The Chosen is one of my favorites.

Edited November 3, 2009 by kewb

[PeterPan]

 

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Hebrew/Aleph-Bet/11 Here's a link, just in case anyone wants the written to go with that fun youtube song version of the Hebrew alphabet. (Not that I'm sure it corresponds, lol.) Don't know why the chechen alphabet would be helpful. You'll notice there were multiple forms of the /x/ sound, some voiced /gh/ some with other distinguishers that I'm not even smart enough to sort out. Hebrew looks a little simpler, with just a couple. As Spy said, they can be hard, soft, voiced, voiceless, with other things before and after to affect how they sound. Guess the only thing I take issue with is the idea that an american can't make that (or any) of the sounds. It's just a sound, and you can do it just fine if you practice enough and have someone explain it. That's what you do in linguistics, breaking down the sound and its components so others can reproduce it. People just tend to get silly when they try something new and don't really TRY. If someone explained the components of the sound probably, you could probably get it.

[PeterPan]

Nope, never read anything by Chaim, and my life has gone on. He's on the VP Omnibus lists I think, so someday we'll get to him. :)

[stripe]

Don't know why the chechen alphabet would be helpful.

Okay, since I'm the one who posted the Chechen pronunciation of "kh" -- people were all over the map trying to describe it, and so I tried to find the sound, and failed, and that was the closest I could find, quickly. It at least illustrated the throaty "kh" sound for those who thought it was merely an "H," even though it wasn't perfect.

 

I never said Chechen was like Hebrew, just that there is a similar sound. I know nothing about Chechen.

[PeterPan]

Ah, but as someone who can say a mean russian /x/ and a pretty good ukraninan /gh/ (the voiced partner of /x/), I was hearing a lot more sounds. That chechen alphabet sure is wild, eh? They basically took everything that is understood in russian (vowel reductions, hard/soft, etc.), formalized it, then added on more sounds specific to their language. That was intriguing how many forms of /x/ they had! :)

[stripe]

I was amazed too. It seemed like a combination of Russian and Arabic sounds, plus more.

[Trixie]

One of the ways to distinguish non-native speakers - of ANY language - is to watch out who "overdoes" things.

Of course that not in every context a sound will sound the same or be equally clear. CH, as well as all other sounds, sometimes gets "swallowed" a little by the context or speed, it's not equally strong every time you pronounce it. It's dictated by the natural flow of the sentence and it doesn't have to be equally strong every time. So yes, there ARE phonetic contexts in which CH might sound more like H with some speakers because of speed or too much CHs/Rs around or whatever, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

 

Same with Hebrew H (hey) sound - more often than not, it's simply "swallowed" in modern Hebrew. When you hear a person who says H every time there theoretically should be one, you know they're most likely not Israeli. Israeli natives, especially the younger generation, tend to swallow H, or half-swallow it, in most contexts.

 

Yes, I know. I was just poking a little fun. ;)

[Spy Car]

One of the ways to distinguish non-native speakers - of ANY language - is to watch out who "overdoes" things.

Of course that not in every context a sound will sound the same or be equally clear. CH, as well as all other sounds, sometimes gets "swallowed" a little by the context or speed, it's not equally strong every time you pronounce it. It's dictated by the natural flow of the sentence and it doesn't have to be equally strong every time. So yes, there ARE phonetic contexts in which CH might sound more like H with some speakers because of speed or too much CHs/Rs around or whatever, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it.

 

Same with Hebrew H (hey) sound - more often than not, it's simply "swallowed" in modern Hebrew. When you hear a person who says H every time there theoretically should be one, you know they're most likely not Israeli. Israeli natives, especially the younger generation, tend to swallow H, or half-swallow it, in most contexts.

 

It's funny, but being a "native speaker" doesn't necessarily equate with proper pronunciation.

 

Case in point, the "qaf" in Arabic. We were at soccer this weekend and my 5 year old son has a good friend on the team who is Palestinian. I'd been urging our boys to play with "Coeur d'Lion" (lion hearts in French) as an expression to fire them up a little. Why this? I don't know.

 

Then I thought about how to say this phrase in Arabic, and turned to my friend (the boys mother) and said: Qalbi Assad?

 

"Yes", she said, "but you know we say, 'Albi Assad".

 

That's because most Arabs (Palestinians included) can't pronounce the "qaf." Or if they can, can't be troubled with it in everyday speech. And how they deal with the "qaf" is very reflective of where they come from and their regional dialect.

 

In places like the Gulf "qaf" becomes a "hard G", in the Levant it's dropped and replaced with an "aspirated A". Sometimes it becomes a "K".

 

But "qaf" has it's own sound and a "proper" pronunciation in Arabic.

 

There are plenty of tongue-twisters in Arabic I can't handle, and my rudimentary knowledge of this language grows rustier each year, but (for some reason) I can easily pronounce a perfect "qaf". And it earns me "bonus points" with native speakers (if not quizzical looks) when I pronounce it correctly.

 

I agree about the "overdoing" of the "Ch" sound. It's one thing to make the basic sound, it's another to keep it short and not overdone.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Okay, since I'm the one who posted the Chechen pronunciation of "kh" -- people were all over the map trying to describe it, and so I tried to find the sound, and failed, and that was the closest I could find, quickly. It at least illustrated the throaty "kh" sound for those who thought it was merely an "H," even though it wasn't perfect.

 

I never said Chechen was like Hebrew, just that there is a similar sound. I know nothing about Chechen.

 

I was amazed too. It seemed like a combination of Russian and Arabic sounds, plus more.

 

There are definitely some sounds in the Chechen alphabet link you posted that have direct analogs in Arabic. Several were striking.

 

Bill

[Trixie]

That's because most Arabs (Palestinians included) can't pronounce the "qaf." Or if they can, can't be troubled with it in everyday speech. And how they deal with the "qaf" is very reflective of where they come from and their regional dialect.

 

In places like the Gulf "qaf" becomes a "hard G", in the Levant it's dropped and replaced with an "aspirated A". Sometimes it becomes a "K".

 

I wonder how much really is inability, though, and how much is simply regional dialect or "sloppy" speech, as is the case with native speakers of any language.

[Spy Car]

I wonder how much really is inability, though, and how much is simply regional dialect or "sloppy" speech, as is the case with native speakers of any language.

 

It's probably "sloppiness" and/or "regional accent", as most Arab speakers (I suspect) can and would pronounce "Qur'an" (which starts with a qaf) correctly and with precision.

 

But ask an Arab speaker to pronounce "qahwa" (coffee) and many will struggle getting beyond their "dialect." And it can be somewhat "comical."

 

Bill (who has a strange sense of humor :tongue_smilie:)

[stripe]

I don't think not saying a sound means that one is sloppy or one cannot speak one's own language, as in your illustration of how various Arabs say "qaf" (a very hard K sound). I don't think most people would say that a Bostonian who "paaks" his "caah" can't speak English or is "sloppy." That's just how they talk. I don't think everyone has to sound generically midwestern or, for that matter, like the Queen Mother. ;)

 

I must admit, I've never spent much time laughing at the way other people speak their own language. ?!

[Trixie]

I don't think not saying a sound means that one is sloppy or one cannot speak one's own language ....

 

Not necessarily, no. And that's why regional differences were also mentioned. :001_smile:

[Spy Car]

I don't think not saying a sound means that one is sloppy or one cannot speak one's own language, as in your illustration of how various Arabs say "qaf" (a very hard K sound). I don't think most people would say that a Bostonian who "paaks" his "caah" can't speak English or is "sloppy." That's just how they talk. I don't think everyone has to sound generically midwestern or, for that matter, like the Queen Mother. ;)

 

I must admit, I've never spent much time laughing at the way other people speak their own language. ?!

 

It does illustrate the point that native speakers, such as Bostonians, don't necessarily serve as models of standard pronunciation. You can call "paaks the caah" what-ever you want. Regional? Fine by me. But it is not standard English.

 

ETA: A "qaf is not a hard "K" its Q said from the back of the mouth, while partially closing the throat with the base of the tongue :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

Edited November 3, 2009 by Spy Car

[newbie]

Could these sounds be genetic? Just throwing it out there. I know they can be learned.

 

But, I have one dd that can come up w/the guttural Arabic sounds and cannot roll her r's for Spanish and the other can roll r's but no natural guttural sound.

 

I have great language skill, mostly germanic and latin. But, dh is Egyptian and speaks Arabic fluently.

 

So is it genetic????

[stripe]

ETA: A "qaf is not a hard "K" its Q said from the back of the mouth, while partially closing the throat with the base of the tongue :tongue_smilie:

 

Bill

You seem to be a bit fixated on correcting my descriptions of sounds!

 

I pronounce the letter "qaf" on a daily basis. I know how to say it. I was trying to describe it's hardness to those who aren't familiar with it. Most people would consider it like a K sound.

[Spy Car]

You seem to be a bit fixated on correcting my descriptions of sounds!

 

Not just yours :D

 

I pronounce the letter "qaf" on a daily basis. I know how to say it. I was trying to describe it's hardness to those who aren't familiar with it. Most people would consider it like a K sound.

 

Maybe. But some people think it sounds like a "G" or an aspirated "A" and they are native Arabic speakers.

 

How it it you use "qaf" everyday?

 

Bill

[stripe]

I would not have the nerve to correct the pronunciation of a native speaker of a language I myself did not speak or only slightly, and I disagree that there is only one way to speak a language.