Another couple Catholic questions if you please

[Amber in SJ]

Thank you so much to those who responded yesterday regarding the death of my nephew.

 

We now have some information about the funeral service. My SIL sent the whole family & friends an e-mail that indicated there would be a mass before the memorial type service for those whom it would be appropriate to attend. My question is; for whom is it appropriate to attend the mass? Dh's family is all of the Evangelical Christian faith, SIL is the only Catholic and we are the only members of the LDS church. Is it only appropriate for the Catholics to attend the Mass? When BIL & SIL were first married and the children were little they attended a Catholic church that was more, how do I say it, liberal? The one she has been attending for the past couple of years is much more conservative or traditional. I do not mean to offend anyone with these terms and let me know if they are not appropriate. My other question is about headcovering. I believe at her current place of worship she wears something over her hair for Mass. If it were appropriate for me to attend the Mass would I wear something like this? What would be appropriate for a funeral mass? Where would I find such a thing in time for the funeral next Monday? My 15 yo dd would like to go to the Mass, but I don't know what would be appropriate and if she would need a head covering, too. I know I should ask my SIL, but I didn't want to bombard her with questions. I want to be respectful.

 

Thank you,

Amber in SJ

[LauraGB]

. My question is; for whom is it appropriate to attend the mass?

The mass is to mourne, honor, remember your nephew. Everyone is welcome, regardless of personal faith.

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

[Melinda in VT]

Not a Catholic, but when I was LDS I attended a Catholic wedding mass and no one batted an eye. There was a point in the mass where people came forward for Communion, and those of us who were not Catholic just stayed in our seats.

 

I would say if you want to go (and in your circumstances, I would), go. I would guess that your SIL just meant that those who would be offended or bothered needn't feel pressured to go.

[LaxMom]

The mass is to mourne, honor, remember your nephew. Everyone is welcome, regardless of personal faith.

:grouphug::grouphug::grouphug:

Indeed. My Jewish / non-religious family members all attend (and participate in) funeral masses for Catholic family members. Really, the only part not observed by the non-Catholic contingent is communion.

 

I would assume that "for whom it is appropriate" would mean "not the general public", as the memorial service is intended for that. I could be wrong though.

 

I'm sorry for your loss. :grouphug:

 

ETA: Head covering is not generally required anymore, though there are some congregations who continue the practice, and some individuals opt to cover regardless of the culture of the parish. I doubt anyone would bat an eye about a young woman who is not a member of the church attending a funeral without head cover, but if it's a concern, just take a scarf in your purse. (And, if it makes you feel better, my mother and her sisters would often end up pinning a Kleenex to their heads as teens because they used to forget their little veils regularly.)

Edited October 6, 2009 by MyCrazyHouse

[HRAAB]

Anybody is welcome to attend Mass. However, only Catholics, and only Catholics in a state of grace, are able to receive Communion. Non-Catholics are usually invited to walk up to the altar to receive a blessing during Communion. It sounds as though your sil is attending a Latin Mass. If so, you can cover your head with a scarf or hat. If she is attending a Novus Ordo Mass, there is no need to cover your head. Please, please feel free to attend the funeral Mass for your nephew; your sil needs your support, in person, emotionally and through prayer.

 

Janet

[unsinkable]

Thank you so much to those who responded yesterday regarding the death of my nephew.

 

We now have some information about the funeral service. My SIL sent the whole family & friends an e-mail that indicated there would be a mass before the memorial type service for those whom it would be appropriate to attend. My question is; for whom is it appropriate to attend the mass? Dh's family is all of the Evangelical Christian faith, SIL is the only Catholic and we are the only members of the LDS church. Is it only appropriate for the Catholics to attend the Mass? When BIL & SIL were first married and the children were little they attended a Catholic church that was more, how do I say it, liberal? The one she has been attending for the past couple of years is much more conservative or traditional. I do not mean to offend anyone with these terms and let me know if they are not appropriate. My other question is about headcovering. I believe at her current place of worship she wears something over her hair for Mass. If it were appropriate for me to attend the Mass would I wear something like this? What would be appropriate for a funeral mass? Where would I find such a thing in time for the funeral next Monday? My 15 yo dd would like to go to the Mass, but I don't know what would be appropriate and if she would need a head covering, too. I know I should ask my SIL, but I didn't want to bombard her with questions. I want to be respectful.

 

Thank you,

Amber in SJ

 

:grouphug: I am so sorry for your loss.

 

Anyone can go to Mass. Anytime. Anywhere. Catholic funerals are beautiful, IMHO. I would hope that if you go to Mass (anytime, anywhere) you'd feel as welcome as I did when I went to LDS Sunday services as a visitor. :)

 

However, only Catholics in a state of grace can receive Holy Communion. If you go to Mass, just stay in your seats for Communion. Don't line up. It is not a big deal at all.

 

As for head coverings, I know in years past, a simple handkerchief would suffice. If you don't want to bother your SIL, you could call the church. I'm sure they'd be happy to answer your questions.

 

HTH. :grouphug:

[Danestress]

You will not be able to take communion, but it will be fine just to sit in your seat while they celebrate the mass.

 

I went to a Catholic funeral mass recently (also for a teenager). I felt comfortable and welcome.

 

Go. I'm so so so sorry for your loss. No words.

[HRAAB]

 

 

However, only Catholics in a state of grace can receive Holy Communion. If you go to Mass, just stay in your seats for Communion. Don't line up. It is not a big deal at all.

. :grouphug:

 

At both my mom's and dad's funeral Mass, the priest invited all family members and friends to come forward for a blessing. They were asked to cross their arms across their chests and bow their head, much like young children before they make their First Holy Communion. However, if she is attending a Tridentine Mass, they should stay in their seats.

 

If I've made a mistake, I'm sure someone will correct me. It's been years since I've been able to attend the Latin Mass. :crying:

 

Janet

[mamamoon]

everyone is welcome! and you may go up for a blessing when people are receiving communion. simply cross your arms.

 

covering the head is old school, but some prefer to still do it~it is a change that happened with vatican 2.

 

sorry for the loss in your family.

[Avila]

Non-Catholics are welcome to attend Mass, but they should not receive communion. That is the official Catholic position.

 

It sounds like she might be attending a Latin Mass. I am guessing that because of the head-covering issue. If it is a Latin Mass oratory that keeps with church teachings, the head covering would be optional. Most regular parishioners would be wearing them, but at the oratory I attend sometimes, there are always women there who don't wear one. It also has some scarves in the lobby that you can borrow to wear.

 

But there are several different types of Latin Mass churches, and some of them don't follow official Catholic teaching in all areas. If she attends one of those, the rules may be completely different from what I am telling you. So honestly, you may want to just ask her.

 

Peace and prayers for you and your family.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Asenik

[unsinkable]

At both my mom's and dad's funeral Mass, the priest invited all family members and friends to come forward for a blessing. They were asked to cross their arms across their chests and bow their head, much like young children before they make their First Holy Communion. However, if she is attending a Tridentine Mass, they should stay in their seats.

 

If I've made a mistake, I'm sure someone will correct me. It's been years since I've been able to attend the Latin Mass. :crying:

 

Janet

 

Janet,

 

I don't think you made a mistake. I just think it depends on the church.

 

I didn't know what Amber meant by "conservative or traditional." I do know that people I would call conservative or traditional Catholics think that the blessing instead of Communion is a travesty (their words). So in the interest of caution, I thought I'd write stay in your seats. No worries that way, KWIM?

[Ellie]

I do know that people I would call conservative or traditional Catholics think that the blessing instead of Communion is a travesty (their words). So in the interest of caution, I thought I'd write stay in your seats. No worries that way, KWIM?

According to the folks on Catholic Defenders of the Faith, although many do go forward at communion to receive a blessing, it really is not proper.

 

I'd stay seated. No one will be offended; theoretically, people will not even notice, as their minds will be on their own receiving of the Eucharist.

[Amber in SJ]

Thank you ladies for the information. OK, a scarf then? I will have to go shopping. Plain? Or is patterned OK? White or matching my outfit, which will be navy or light gray? Do I try to hold it on with bobby pins?

 

I know I am focusing on something ridiculous that doesn't even matter but I want to be respectful and thinking about stupid things keeps me away from the loss that feels like a big, black hole that will suck me in if I think about it directly.

 

Amber in SJ

[HRAAB]

Thank you ladies for the information. OK, a scarf then? I will have to go shopping. Plain? Or is patterned OK? White or matching my outfit, which will be navy or light gray? Do I try to hold it on with bobby pins?

 

I know I am focusing on something ridiculous that doesn't even matter but I want to be respectful and thinking about stupid things keeps me away from the loss that feels like a big, black hole that will suck me in if I think about it directly.

 

Amber in SJ

 

Any scarf would be fine. Maybe try to find one that you will use later? In the past when I attended a Latin Mass, I secured my veil with bobby pins.

 

Maybe it wouldn't hurt to check for sure that the ladies at this parish do indeed cover their heads before you rush out and buy a scarf.

 

Janet

[AlmiraGulch]

Thank you ladies for the information. OK, a scarf then? I will have to go shopping. Plain? Or is patterned OK? White or matching my outfit, which will be navy or light gray? Do I try to hold it on with bobby pins?

 

I know I am focusing on something ridiculous that doesn't even matter but I want to be respectful and thinking about stupid things keeps me away from the loss that feels like a big, black hole that will suck me in if I think about it directly.

 

Amber in SJ

 

My sister sometimes chooses to wear a head covering, while literally no one else in her parish does.

 

I have not personally heard of or know of any Catholic church that requires head coverings any more. Like someone else already stated, that requirement went out with Vatican II (in the '60s). If you choose to wear one, plain or patterned, matching or not, will make no difference.

 

Honestly, I (and a large majority of others in attendance) usually wear jeans to Mass if I attend, unless it's a special occasion like Christmas, Easter or a funeral.

 

You are very kind to be so considerate of others' beliefs during this horrible time! If it would make you feel more comfortable, you may wish to take a scarf in case you look around and feel that you need it based on what others are wearing. Otherwise, I promise you that no one will pay any attention to it whatsoever. The modern Roman Catholic Church absolutely does not require head coverings anymore, and it is quite unusual to see someone wearing one anymore.

[unsinkable]

If you are really concerned you could try local Catholic stores and ask if they sell chapel veils.

 

HTH

[asta]

Amber,

 

I've always been taught (mom's a v. traditional Catholic) that, if one is *not* Catholic, you would not need to cover your head. It doesn't really work that way in Catholicism.

 

When Mrs. Obama visited the Pope, she covered her head, even though she isn't Catholic, because all women who visit the pope cover their heads. Period. It isn't a "Catholic mass" thing, it is a "he's the head of the Catholic Church" thing. Kind of like curtseying to the Queen (bad analogy, but all I've got at the moment...).

 

HTH

 

 

a

[MomOfOneFunOne]

I recommend not wearing the scarf. I am Catholic and an (almost) daily communicant but I only occassionally go to the Latin rite. When I very first went, messing around with a scarf on my head separated me from the sarifice and prayers through my own akwardness and distraction and probably distracted others.

 

I'm used to it now so it's not a big deal. However, this is a huge thing in your life and you probable want to be fully present. The covering isn't required of you and may separate you from what you're there for.

 

If you feel strongly that you want to do it, any kind of scarf will do in a pinch but the long narrow kind may cause you more trouble.

 

Remember those combs we used to wear back in the way back? They are plactic and come in a variety of colors. You're supposed to hold it face down, comb it through to the desired location in your hair and then flip it back and press forward to insert the teeth into hair and it holds the hair in place. REmember those? I got one and folded down the corner of the scarf. I stitched the comb to the scarf. I don't do the early 80s comb insertion technique described above but just tuck it in my hair on top. Stays put.

[Spy Car]

If one wore a head-scarf to a Mass, particularly a Tridentine Mass, could one be seen as sending an inadvertent signal that one was in sympathy with potentially schismatic elements of the Catholics Church such as the Society of St Pius X and other "Traditionalist" elements who are deeply opposed to Vatican II?

 

I'd want to be really careful that the head-scarf isn't a far deeper "signal" than you might assume it to be.

 

Amber, I'm very sorry for your loss.

 

Bill

Edited October 6, 2009 by Spy Car

[HRAAB]

Okay, one last time. All the Tridentine Masses I've attended the women covered their heads. I have not been to one for over 10 years, but cannot imagine it would change. If it is a Novus Ordo Mass, yes, you would probably stand out if you covered your head. If it is a Tridentine/Latin Mass, you might stand out if you don't. It's not sending any signals or anything. But it's not a big deal. It's a funeral. Please go and don't worry about the head covering.

 

Janet

[HRAAB]

If one wore a head-scarf to a Mass, particularly a Tridentine Mass, could one be seen as sending an inadvertent signal that one was in sympathy with potentially schismatic elements of the Catholics Church such as the Society of St Pius X and other "Traditionalist" elements who are deeply opposed to Vatican II?

 

I'd want to be really careful that the head-scarf isn't a far deeper "signal" than you might assume it to be.

 

Amber, I'm very sorry for your loss.

 

Bill

 

I'm certainly not in sympathy when any of the schismatic groups in the Catholic Church, but if I attend a Latin Mass I will cover my head, because that is what is done. At least in my experience. Normally I attend the Novus Ordo and would never wear a head covering as that would perhaps look like I was trying to make a statement. The OP said her sil attended a Latin Mass, and likely most of the women will cover their heads; this in no way is taking sides with any schismatic sect such as Pius X.

 

I think I just talked in a circle. :tongue_smilie:

 

Janet

[Avila]

If one wore a head-scarf to a Mass, particularly a Tridentine Mass, could one be seen as sending an inadvertent signal that one was in sympathy with potentially schismatic elements of the Catholics Church such as the Society of St Pius X and other "Traditionalist" elements who are deeply opposed to Vatican II?

 

I'd want to be really careful that the head-scarf isn't a far deeper "signal" than you might assume it to be.

 

Amber, I'm very sorry for your loss.

 

Bill

 

In general, Bill, I wouldn't think so. The chapel veil is still worn in papal Masses and is generally not seen as symbolic in a schismatic way. SSPXers have their own chapels, and they generally don't associate with other Catholics (even Tridentine Mass ones) for their own reasons. The chapel veil is intended to be an outward sign of reverence for the presence of Christ in the Eucharist at Mass.

 

So while a non-Catholic could wear the veil, they certainly don't have to, and rather than being seen as sympathy with SSPX, it would be more seen as a sign of respect for the place or a sign of belief in the Catholic Eucharistic teaching. I honestly, in my year-plus of attending a Tridentine Mass (still in alignment with the Pope), never had anyone comment on it either way.

[Spy Car]

I'm certainly not in sympathy when any of the schismatic groups in the Catholic Church, but if I attend a Latin Mass I will cover my head, because that is what is done. At least in my experience. Normally I attend the Novus Ordo and would never wear a head covering as that would perhaps look like I was trying to make a statement. The OP said her sil attended a Latin Mass, and likely most of the women will cover their heads; this in no way is taking sides with any schismatic sect such as Pius X.

 

I think I just talked in a circle. :tongue_smilie:

 

Janet

 

In general, Bill, I wouldn't think so. The chapel veil is still worn in papal Masses and is generally not seen as symbolic in a schismatic way. SSPXers have their own chapels, and they generally don't associate with other Catholics (even Tridentine Mass ones) for their own reasons. The chapel veil is intended to be an outward sign of reverence for the presence of Christ in the Eucharist at Mass.

 

So while a non-Catholic could wear the veil, they certainly don't have to, and rather than being seen as sympathy with SSPX, it would be more seen as a sign of respect for the place or a sign of belief in the Catholic Eucharistic teaching. I honestly, in my year-plus of attending a Tridentine Mass (still in alignment with the Pope), never had anyone comment on it either way.

 

Thank you both for responding. I'm not Catholic. And I've only attended one Tridentine Mass (because I thought it would be highly interesting to hear Latin) and I guess I felt a little naive afterward, when from comments directed to me and over-heard comments among others I came to believe there was a lot more going on than I was fully comprehending.

 

And I left wondering just how in "communion" this community was with Rome, as they seemed quite disgruntled (to put it mildly).

 

I didn't fully "get" the meaning of all the medals worn my the men, nor was I sure what conclusion to draw from the head-scarves.

 

While not Catholic, I've attended Roman Catholic Masses with great frequency over the course of my life (from childhood). So Catholic Churches and Catholic Mass are hardly "strange" to me.

 

But the tenor at the Tridentine Mass was something completely new to me. And it had nothing to do with the service being in Latin (that's why I went). It just felt nothing like going to St Cyril's or Our Lady of Grace.

 

So I wondered if the head-scarf could be seen as a political/religious statement showing ones stand on Vatican II?

 

Bill

[HRAAB]

Thank you both for responding. I'm not Catholic. And I've only attended one Tridentine Mass (because I thought it would be highly interesting to hear Latin) and I guess I felt a little naive afterward, when from comments directed to me and over-heard comments among others I came to believe there was a lot more going on than I was fully comprehending.

 

And I left wondering just how in "communion" this community was with Rome, as they seemed quite disgruntled (to put it mildly).

 

I didn't fully "get" the meaning of all the medals worn my the men, nor was I sure what conclusion to draw from the head-scarves.

 

While not Catholic, I've attended Roman Catholic Masses with great frequency over the course of my life (from childhood). So Catholic Churches and Catholic Mass are hardly "strange" to me.

 

But the tenor at the Tridentine Mass was something completely new to me. And it had nothing to do with the service being in Latin (that's why I went). It just felt nothing like going to St Cyril's or Our Lady of Grace.

 

So I wondered if the head-scarf could be seen as a political/religious statement showing ones stand on Vatican II?

 

Bill

 

There are definitely divisions in the Catholic Church - divisions among the people anyway. You might have been among some Traditionalists perhaps? I get very confused over what's what, myself (traditionalist, orthodox, conservative). And I do know a 'few' women who cover their heads as an anti-Vatican II statement. Usually at a Latin Mass it's just a sign of respect for Christ. The Latin Mass is a beautiful experience, imo, however, squabbling among unhappy Catholics could certainly give a non-Catholic a poor impression.

 

Janet

 

Janet

[Spy Car]

There are definitely divisions in the Catholic Church - divisions among the people anyway. You might have been among some Traditionalists perhaps? I get very confused over what's what, myself (traditionalist, orthodox, conservative). And I do know a 'few' women who cover their heads as an anti-Vatican II statement. Usually at a Latin Mass it's just a sign of respect for Christ. The Latin Mass is a beautiful experience, imo, however, squabbling among unhappy Catholics could certainly give a non-Catholic a poor impression.

 

Janet

 

Janet

 

Not a bad impression. I just think I happened to accidently stumble into a Traditionalist assembly, looking for a "Latin Mass" and finding myself in another world. There was no question in my mind that this wasn't your typical "Catholic" Church. No way!

 

It seemed so far past "conservative" that I don't even have a name for it. And the tenor and conversation seemed very anti Vatican II. And the ladies all wore head-scarves, which I'm unused to seeing in large number at Catholic Mass. Hence the question.

 

I still enjoyed hearing the Mass in Latin. The service was beautiful.

 

Bill

[LaxMom]

If one wore a head-scarf to a Mass, particularly a Tridentine Mass, could one be seen as sending an inadvertent signal ...

Um, not to be snippy, but would you have the same concerns about covering your head entering a synagogue? (Really, it's a question and not a snide comment.)

 

I generally view such things as deferring to cultural tradition, and would certainly cover my head anywhere that it is expected that women do so, and I would never even consider that I might be sending a signal, inadvertent or otherwise.

[Spy Car]

Um, not to be snippy, but would you have the same concerns about covering your head entering a synagogue? (Really, it's a question and not a snide comment.)

 

I generally view such things as deferring to cultural tradition, and would certainly cover my head anywhere that it is expected that women do so, and I would never even consider that I might be sending a signal, inadvertent or otherwise.

 

Hey, there are synagogues where a woman showing an elbow is a scandal. And it's usual in Orthodox temples for men and women to sit segregated.

 

I'm not against following the rules of the road, sort of speak.

 

The question I had with head-scarves in a Catholic Mass (where to my knowledge they are not "required") was if they might serve as an unintended signal that one is an opponent of Vatican II. So one might be getting involved in an internal debate without meaning to. I may be all wrong on the matter.

 

But little signals, like a Kippah (yarmulke) of a certain size or made of a particular material CAN be a clue to the initiated about where a person is coming from with Jews. Where the "average Joe" might miss the significance.

 

I am simply asking (not telling) about the Catholic head-scarf question. But I do wonder if it doesn't potentially carry a Traditionalist (anti-Vatican II) "message."

 

Bill

[Philothea]

When I attended the novus ordo service I would cover my head and I stuck out pretty bad. I didn't care though, because headcovering in Church is indiciative of belief in the Blessed Sacrament and the presence of God and His angels.

 

I go to the SSPX and other sedevacantist chapels and they all expect women to cover their heads, most of the time a head covering is provided. Doing so is does not mean that you agree with their response to the current crisis of faith. It would be considered gravely disrespectful to have an uncovered head in a (traditional) Catholic church even if you did not share the beliefs. We requested that all women cover their heads at our wedding.

 

If I were attending another person's church for a wedding or funeral I would follow all of their passive participation customs, such as sitting, standing or removing shoes. Active participation, such as prayers, communion meals, and singing, I would not do.

[LaxMom]

Hey, there are synagogues where a woman showing an elbow is a scandal. And it's usual in Orthodox temples for men and women to sit segregated.

 

I'm not against following the rules of the road, sort of speak.

 

The question I had with head-scarves in a Catholic Mass (where to my knowledge they are not "required") was if they might serve as an unintended signal that one is an opponent of Vatican II. So one might be getting involved in an internal debate without meaning to. I may be all wrong on the matter.

 

But little signals, like a Kippah (yarmulke) of a certain size or made of a particular material CAN be a clue to the initiated about where a person is coming from with Jews. Where the "average Joe" might miss the significance.

 

I am simply asking (not telling) about the Catholic head-scarf question. But I do wonder if it doesn't potentially carry a Traditionalist (anti-Vatican II) "message."

 

Bill

Yes, I imagine the disposable from the basket out front screams "gentile!" :D And you should keep your elbows covered in temple, woman or not. Short sleeved suit jackets are just tacky.

 

I doubt the (non-Catholic) OP too concerned about Vatican-II (though, being non-Catholic is probably not "in support of"), in any event.

 

I appreciate the explanation, though.

[Spy Car]

When I attended the novus ordo service I would cover my head and I stuck out pretty bad. I didn't care though, because headcovering in Church is indiciative of belief in the Blessed Sacrament and the presence of God and His angels.

 

I go to the SSPX and other sedevacantist chapels and they all expect women to cover their heads, most of the time a head covering is provided. Doing so is does not mean that you agree with their response to the current crisis of faith. It would be considered gravely disrespectful to have an uncovered head in a (traditional) Catholic church even if you did not share the beliefs. We requested that all women cover their heads at our wedding.

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but is it true that the "sedevacantist" movement holds that Pope Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, and Pope Benedict were not/are not "true" Popes (nor Catholics) and are instead heretics and not legitimate successor of Peter?

 

And the Papal seat has thus been "vacant"?

 

This rather confirms my suspicion that the head-scarf issue runs deeper than one might expect on the surface. And that it can be a mark of schismatics or "Traditionalists" or "Sedevacantists" (pick your term).

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Yes, I imagine the disposable from the basket out front screams "gentile!" :D

 

Totally goyish :D

 

Bill

[LMA]

Correct me if I'm wrong but is it true that the "sedevacantist" movement holds that Pope Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, and Pope Benedict were not/are not "true" Popes (nor Catholics) and are instead heretics and not legitimate successor of Peter?

 

And the Papal seat has thus been "vacant"?

 

This rather confirms my suspicion that the head-scarf issue runs deeper than one might expect on the surface. And that it can be a mark of schismatics or "Traditionalists" or "Sedevacantists" (pick your term).

 

Bill

 

The issue here runs deeper than just a bunch of unhappy schismatics. Going to a "schismatic" (which in itself is debatable) church does satisfy your Sunday obligation in the Church because the lineage of ordination is not broken.

 

There are lots of issues with the direction and validity of the modern Church. The Traditional movement is more than just bringing back the Traditional Mass. The "head-scarf", which is not really a proper term, is called a veil or mantilla. It is a tradition brought back by women who want to cover their head and not as a political statement but for religious reasons. You can wear a veil in the modern Mass. They are not banned.

 

There are issues with the validity of the rite of ordination and whether or not such priests are validly ordained or are just presiders at the Mass. Other rites were changed also. That is why there is a sedevacantist issue. Not all Traditional groups go as far to say the seat is empty. Some will just say that it is doubtful that the current Pontiff is a valid holder. Either way the issue is deeper than just being a schismatic. It is more than just "sour grapes".

 

It is more than I want to discuss here. You can PM me if you wish. I can send you some links and titles to read, if you are interested.

 

Louise

[Philothea]

Correct me if I'm wrong but is it true that the "sedevacantist" movement holds that Pope Paul VI, John Paul I, John Paul II, and Pope Benedict were not/are not "true" Popes (nor Catholics) and are instead heretics and not legitimate successor of Peter?

 

And the Papal seat has thus been "vacant"?

 

This rather confirms my suspicion that the head-scarf issue runs deeper than one might expect on the surface. And that it can be a mark of schismatics or "Traditionalists" or "Sedevacantists" (pick your term).

 

Bill

 

They aren't schismatics, it is lawful and acceptable to not accept a papal claimant on resonable grounds. But most of the other stuff you have resonably correct. Except for the headcovering issue, headcovering is the norm not the exception for all Catholic ladies, despite their standing on the crisis. It is the ones who don't cover their heads who are making the statement.

[Spy Car]

They aren't schismatics, it is lawful and acceptable to not accept a papal claimant on resonable grounds. But most of the other stuff you have resonably correct.

 

So not schismatics, but "sedevacantists" don't accept that the past 4 or 5 Popes (including the current Pope Benedict) were/are legitimate papal claimants? Is that correct?

 

Do "sedevacantists" refer to Benedict as "Pope Benedict" or is there another term of reference? And is it correct that, from a sedevacantist perspective, that Benedict would be viewed as a heretic? Same with John Paul II?

 

Except for the headcovering issue, headcovering is the norm not the exception for all Catholic ladies, despite their standing on the crisis. It is the ones who don't cover their heads who are making the statement.

 

So those who don't wear a "mantilla" (thank you LMA) would be signaling they not in agreement with Traditional Catholicism (including but not not limited to the sedevacantist movement) and are thus making a statement that they are in league with the current/recent illegitimate Popes and the heretical modernist movement?

 

Am I getting close?

 

Bill

[HRAAB]

They aren't schismatics, it is lawful and acceptable to not accept a papal claimant on resonable grounds. But most of the other stuff you have resonably correct. Except for the headcovering issue, headcovering is the norm not the exception for all Catholic ladies, despite their standing on the crisis. It is the ones who don't cover their heads who are making the statement.

 

Not according to the 1983 Code of Canon Law, unless you don't believe it's binding. Women are not canonically required to cover their heads, although there is nothing forbidding women from doing so.

 

Janet