Going to jail for PRAYING?

[Scuff]

The only way to avoid religion being "pushed" on my children is for them to attend an Orthodox parochial school, or to be homeschooled.

 

In the public schools, a religious worldview that has ended up being called, in general terms, "humanism" (and which is palatable to atheists) concretely "pushes" religion on the children and adults present. No word games -- it is a religious point of view.

 

In numerous other situations, my children and I have somebody else's religious worldview "pushed" on us. Generally it assumes the form of a group prayer, the content of which is fully alien to us, even if the prayer would be labelled "Christian." (Often it is a prayer addressed to some mish-mosh generic "god" which, in my framework, does not even exist to be a problem in the first place.)

 

I don't get bent out of shape over this generic public action, an action which contains scant content to anyone other than the person who is praying aloud. I just read a book, look out the window, pray silently, or whatever. I never would waste my time arguing against the majority culture. (and I speak of both public schools and group meetings) My time is far better spent raising my children in our family's faith, which includes allowing freedom to adherents of other religions.

 

The only time that I did feel angry was when, at my older boys' Montessori school, the children were up on a stage at an end-of-year performance, rotating in some pagan-style dance dedicated to the sun, and intoning some hymn-style song to the earth. My anger in that instance, though, was because the school lacked the wit to ask parents for permission. In that instance, we definitely were "forced" into something we believe wrong.

 

Interesting thought that my children are "in the care" of an outside school. I don't think so. In loco parentis expired as a concept many years ago.

 

Good stuff.

[Spy Car]

The article states they offered a public prayer in front of students (who are not adults, "consenting" or otherwise), faculty and members of the community.

 

And they did so in violation of a Court Decree. What's hard to understand about this?

 

No one is looking to infringe on freedom of conscious. Or to prevent a person from saying a silent prayer over a meal.

 

But a Administrator of a school can not use his or her authority to advance their own religious agenda. It is not permissible (for good reason) and there was a Court Order in effect because of prior abuse of authority.

 

Bill

[lionfamily1999]

The article states they offered a public prayer in front of students (who are not adults, "consenting" or otherwise), faculty and members of the community.

 

And they did so in violation of a Court Decree. What's hard to understand about this?

 

No one is looking to infringe on freedom of conscious. Or to prevent a person from saying a silent prayer over a meal.

 

But a Administrator of a school can not use his or her authority to advance their own religious agenda. It is not permissible (for good reason) and there was a Court Order in effect because of prior abuse of authority.

 

Bill

Public prayer is perfectly legal and it does not have to be silent. Forcing someone to bend their religion due to their position is against the Constitution. If they were not coercing, requiring, or mandating that prayer, if it was a prayer in which the participants were willing/consenting, then it does not violate the separation of church and state. If the previous ruling said, as it says in the article, that they are PROHIBITED from participating in or starting a prayer then, imo, that judge ruled contrary to the Constitution and violated their rights as American citizens.

 

If it was, indeed, a group of consenting people praying over a meal then what was the problem in the first place? You don't have to pray silently, there are some that believe prayer MUST issue from the mouth. As long as you are not forcing someone else to pray you are well within your rights.

[Spy Car]

If they were not coercing, requiring, or mandating that prayer, if it was a prayer in which the participants were willing/consenting, then it does not violate the separation of church and state.

 

But the school authorities WERE coercing the public prayer in the face of a direct Court order not to do so. The participants were not consenting adults, the students were not "adults" at all.

 

No one is against private prayer. This was not that. It was imposed prayer by people acting under authority in a manner enjoined by the Court.

 

Bill

[lionfamily1999]

But the school authorities WERE coercing the public prayer in the face of a direct Court order not to do so. The participants were not consenting adults, the students were not "adults" at all.

 

No one is against private prayer. This was not that. It was imposed prayer by people acting under authority in a manner enjoined by the Court.

 

Bill

From what the article said, the people praying were consenting adults. They weren't saying 'everyone bow your head' (or so it was portrayed in the article), they weren't requiring people not in the group to repeat the prayer. A group of people can pray in public too. They can do so out loud, they can do so together. They can even stand up and join hands. It's their right to do so. If they had coerced someone I guess the charges would not have been dropped.

[LizzyBee]

The article states they offered a public prayer in front of students (who are not adults, "consenting" or otherwise), faculty and members of the community.

 

And they did so in violation of a Court Decree. What's hard to understand about this?

 

Bill

 

:confused: One article I read said in one paragraph that students were included and in a different paragraph that students weren't included. It seems the media reporting on the incident are not clear on the facts, so it's kind of pointless to say on a message board that any of us know all the pertinent facts.

[Slartibartfast]

The article in the OP states that the whole reason this started was...

 

The ACLU filed suit last year against the school district in northwest Florida on behalf of two Pace students who alleged that "officials regularly promoted religion and led prayers at school events," according to an ACLU statement.

[lionfamily1999]

The article in the OP states that the whole reason this started was...

Yes, but the charges brought NOW are from a different set of circumstance.

[Slartibartfast]

But it still says...

 

"Freeman complied with the request and offered the prayer at the event. It appears this was a school-sponsored event attended by students, faculty and community members."

Attorneys from Liberty Counsel, a conservative legal group helping defend Lay and Freeman, have said that attendees included booster club members and other adults who helped the field house project -- all "consenting adults."

[lionfamily1999]

Yes and the group praying were made of consenting adults. Students might have gone, but the group praying were consenting adults.

 

Again, according to the article, I wasn't there.

[Slartibartfast]

I found a different article that stated that the event took place on church property.

 

I don't know why a school event would be held on church property. :confused:

 

http://www.pnj.com/article/20090917/NEWS01/909170317&referrer=FRONTPAGECAROUSEL

[PineFarmMom]

Again, reminds me of how the Bible says that some will call good evil and evil good. I'm not surprised by it at all.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Texas T

[Slartibartfast]

I don't really believe it was persecution

 

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/undergod/2009/09/say_grace_go_to_jail.html?hpid=talkbox1

 

According to court documents, the Pace High Teacher Handbook required school personnel to "embrace every opportunity to inculcate, by precept and example, the practice of every Christian virtue." School and district officials "often led or directed students in prayer at extracurricular and athletic events, arranged for prayer during graduation ceremonies, proselytized students during and outside of class, and sponsored religious baccalaureate services. One teacher displayed a waist-high white cross in her classroom."

That seems to be crossing the line to me.

 

If the event took place on church property then I agree that it would be expected that a prayer would take place.

[Tree House Academy]

But pushing ones religious beliefs on children from a position of authority in a public school is very wrong.

Bill

 

See, I didn't see it as them "pushing their religious beliefs on children" just by praying over a meal. Like I said, if a muslim prayed over a meal that my Christian son was eating, it would not offend me at all. I would actually consider it something done out of love.

 

I guess I just don't see things the same as others.

[lionfamily1999]

I found a different article that stated that the event took place on church property.

 

I don't know why a school event would be held on church property. :confused:

 

http://www.pnj.com/article/20090917/NEWS01/909170317&referrer=FRONTPAGECAROUSEL

Thanks for the link, it explains the situation a little better.

According to court documents, the Pace High Teacher Handbook required school personnel to "embrace every opportunity to inculcate, by precept and example, the practice of every Christian virtue." School and district officials "often led or directed students in prayer at extracurricular and athletic events, arranged for prayer during graduation ceremonies, proselytized students during and outside of class, and sponsored religious baccalaureate services. One teacher displayed a waist-high white cross in her classroom."

That, even from a Christian pov, is rediculous and definitely crosses all kinds of lines. I understand the court order.

The Pensacola News Journal reported late Thursday that after a full day of testimony, Judge M. Case Rodgers said the prayer at a field house dedication during the school day that was held on church property was spontaneous, and there was seemingly no intent to violate the order. Lay could have faced up to six months in jail and $5,000 each in fines if the judge had ruled differently.

And that explains why it was dropped. What in the world are they doing with a field house on church property? Lines aren't even blurred at that point, it makes it impossible for anyone to be in the right. I mean, if they have this at a church then what happens when the members of said church decide to preach or pray on their own property??? That is a mess.

No one should go to jail for saying grace before a meal. But God isn't hard of hearing. If public school officials or anyone else wants to say grace before meals at government-sponsored events, they have every right to do so -- privately and silently, in their own heads and hearts.

That irritates me. We have the right to pray aloud. There are people that believe that prayer must be spoken. I would never dream of interrupting someone mid prayer to tell them to think good thoughts and shut their yap. That evens verges into freedom of speach, imo.

As the ACLU explained, "By directing, promoting, sponsoring, or otherwise endorsing prayer or religious activity, public schools infringe on the constitutional right of students, parents, teachers, and other staff to determine for themselves their religious beliefs and practices."

Imo, that's too far too. Prayer around the flag pole, the Christian Athletes, those are school clubs and perfectly legal. As long as no one is being coerced there isn't an issue. That idea that the ACLU puts forth concerns me because, imo, it steps over all sorts of boundaries meant to protect religion from government envolvement.

 

Many people are defined by their religion. It's not something they put on and take off. For those people, their religion is a part of who they are.

[Slartibartfast]

Oh..I assumed they were just having a thing for the field house on church property. Is the field house on church property? That seems really inappropriate.

[lionfamily1999]

Oh..I assumed they were just having a thing for the field house on church property. Is the field house on church property? That seems really inappropriate.

Maybe I misread it, but why would they have a dedication somewhere other than the place they're dedicating?

[Impish]

I'm confused. And not being sarcastic or snarky at all.

 

I thought that religion was not to be a part of public school, period in the States? Can someone explain please? I don't get if its a public school why they would need to be having court orders in the first place.

 

Second, if you're in a position of power and authority, as a principal would be, and leading a public prayer, its a far different animal than someone quietly blessing their own meal. You don't need to be heard throughout the room to say your blessing aloud.

 

This just seems another case of 'one person's rights end where another's begin'. All people of all faith have the right to worship...but others have the right not to witnessing you doing so.

[Slartibartfast]

Maybe I misread it, but why would they have a dedication somewhere other than the place they're dedicating?

 

I have no answer for this. :lol: I guess it just didn't occur to me that they would *possibly* build a school building on church property.

[HollyDay]

what happened to tolerance. Prayers of any sort (christian, muslim, whatever) cannot be said to appease the unbeliever. What appeases those of faiths?

[lionfamily1999]

I have no answer for this. :lol: I guess it just didn't occur to me that they would *possibly* build a school building on church property.

I would have never believed that people in a public school would do HALF of what they were doing to get the original court order. After reading the charges brought before, building on church property wouldn't surprise me at all.

[Karenciavo]

 

They were exonerated much to the delight of the students.

[Heather in Neverland]

what happened to tolerance. Prayers of any sort (christian, muslim, whatever) cannot be said to appease the unbeliever. What appeases those of faiths?

 

That is a very good question. There are things that we, as believers, are compelled to do, like offering a blessing and prayer of thanks to God for a new building that will serve the children of the school...prayers of blessing for those who may have donated to the cause...prayers of thanks to the workers who built it...

 

Prayers like this are not meant to "proselytize" and even if you don't believe in God, how can your heart be so hard that if someone prays to the God they believe in to bless YOU for your help you get offended and want to put them in jail?

 

I live in a country populated by muslims, buddhists, hindus and others. When our christian school children from our christian school here gathered up and delivered:

 

¼ ton of rice

32 kilos of powdered milk

50 liters of cooking oil

32 kilos of Milo

6 bags of onions

8 bags of garlic

A whole lot of love

 

to a very poor muslim community and they were so grateful and they were offering prayers (out loud) to their God, prayers of thanks, prayers of blessing over us and our christian children...all muslim prayers... and we felt so happy to have helped them and to be the object of their muslim prayers of blessing and thanks.

 

We did NOT leave there talking about "How dare they express thanks to us christians with muslim prayers. I am so OFFENDED!"

 

Can't we extend a little graciousness to one another? Take things in the spirit it was meant? Not jump to be offended so easily?

[Donna T.]

I just cringe when I hear news reports like this. I am a Christian (conservative theologically) and I long for the Lord Jesus Christ to be exalted in all spheres. And, by faith, I believe that He will be. Eventually. But, it seems to me that Christians get so full of themselves and get so full of their own spirituality, that they bring reproach upon the Name of the Lord. They think they are making some kind of witness for Him but they are really just enflaming non-believers. In a perfect world, I would want public officials/school officials to pray for.... whatever, everything. But, this is not a perfect world and I think it's wrong. I'm sure their intentions are good. They probably intended good. But, prayer in public is not what Jesus told the church to do! He told us to give the gospel out. That is two different things. We offend others with our prayers when we are supposed to be fishing for men with the gospel message.

 

Jesus said:

Matthew 6:6

"But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly."

 

I know alot of Christians would disagree with me. But, really, no where in Scripture are we told to pray publically for any reason whatsoever. It is said that they were blessing their meal. That is not what the article said. Anyways, that certainly would not require a public prayer.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Donna T.

[lionfamily1999]

Didn't the disciples praise God constantly?

 

We're told to bless our food.

 

We're not supposed to pray to get glory from other people, but we can praise God every day, every where. In the Psalms it says to tell others the wonders of God, to praise God to others. Whether or not praising God is a prayer is, I guess in the eye of the beholder, but there are instances when going into a closet to pray would not work out well.

[mommaduck]

That is a very good question. There are things that we, as believers, are compelled to do, like offering a blessing and prayer of thanks to God for a new building that will serve the children of the school...prayers of blessing for those who may have donated to the cause...prayers of thanks to the workers who built it...

 

Prayers like this are not meant to "proselytize" and even if you don't believe in God, how can your heart be so hard that if someone prays to the God they believe in to bless YOU for your help you get offended and want to put them in jail?

 

I live in a country populated by muslims, buddhists, hindus and others. When our christian school children from our christian school here gathered up and delivered:

 

¼ ton of rice

32 kilos of powdered milk

50 liters of cooking oil

32 kilos of Milo

6 bags of onions

8 bags of garlic

A whole lot of love

 

to a very poor muslim community and they were so grateful and they were offering prayers (out loud) to their God, prayers of thanks, prayers of blessing over us and our christian children...all muslim prayers... and we felt so happy to have helped them and to be the object of their muslim prayers of blessing and thanks.

 

We did NOT leave there talking about "How dare they express thanks to us christians with muslim prayers. I am so OFFENDED!"

 

Can't we extend a little graciousness to one another? Take things in the spirit it was meant? Not jump to be offended so easily?

:iagree:Thank you, Thank you, Thank you!!!! This country (and France) is out of WHACK!

[Spy Car]

Prayers like this are not meant to "proselytize" and even if you don't believe in God, how can your heart be so hard that if someone prays to the God they believe in to bless YOU for your help you get offended and want to put them in jail?

 

 

Because it is coercive and creates a hostile environment for those not of the majority faith to have Christian prayers pushed upon them. I fail to see how you can't understand the position this puts non-Christians (especially children) in.

 

So either you bite your tongue and go along, or you protest you freedoms being infringed. It's wrong to push your religion (or anti-religion) on children. This has no place in a public school, and it is the height of arrogance to ignore Court Orders and to subvert the laws of our land (not to mention good manners) just because one is a true believer in their own righteousness.

 

Bill

[lionfamily1999]

Because it is coercive and creates a hostile environment for those not of the majority faith to have Christian prayers pushed upon them. I fail to see how you can't understand the position this puts non-Christians (especially children) in.

 

So either you bite your tongue and go along, or you protest you freedoms being infringed. It's wrong to push your religion (or anti-religion) on children. This has no place in a public school, and it is the height of arrogance to ignore Court Orders and to subvert the laws of our land (not to mention good manners) just because one is a true believer in their own righteousness.

 

Bill

They were on church property when it happened.

 

Praying is not coercion in and of itself. Forcing others to pray, that's coercion.

[mommaduck]

Let's repeat this a few more times. This should have been a big clue.

 

They were on church property when it happened.

 

Praying is not coercion in and of itself. Forcing others to pray, that's coercion.

 

And if they were on church property, others could have chosen not to come.

Edited September 19, 2009 by mommaduck

[Spy Car]

They were on church property when it happened.

 

Praying is not coercion in and of itself. Forcing others to pray, that's coercion.

 

I beg to differ. Autorities acting in loco parentis leading prayer in front of minors is coercive. It creates a very hostile environment for those not of the faith to be put into such a position. It is not a kind act.

 

This was a public school event, from what I understand, therefore the norms of a public school should prevail for Administrators. There was already abuse on these grounds or there wouldn't be a standing Consent Decree.

 

It's shameful behavior.

 

Bill

[JudyJudyJudy]

Let's repeat this a few more times. This should have been a big clue.

 

 

 

And if they were on church property, others could have chosen not to come.

This was a school-day function. If they were attending church instead of school, then their pay needs to be docked.

[Spy Car]

They were on church property when it happened.

 

 

All the news reports I've been able to locate state this incident occurred at Pace High School, on public school grounds, not at a church. So I'm confused about the "church property" claim.

 

Also the Administrators had already been taken to court for forcing their religious views on students and were expressly barred from further acts of this kind.

 

The Court was cowardly for letting them off. It's a sad day for American justice.

 

Bill

[JudyJudyJudy]

All the news reports I've been able to locate state this incident occurred at Pace High School, on public school grounds, not at a church. So I'm confused about the "church property" claim.

 

Also the Administrators had already been taken to court for forcing their religious views on students and were expressly barred from further acts of this kind.

 

The Court was cowardly for letting them off. It's a sad day for American justice.

 

Bill

I haven't been able to find anything to substantiate that claim, either.

[mommaduck]

This was a school-day function. If they were attending church instead of school, then their pay needs to be docked.

Most likely we are talking about salaried, not hourly workers. They can offer any event outside of school hours and elsewhere if they wish. It's up to others whether they attend or not. If it's off campus, they couldn't force or coerce the others there.

[lionfamily1999]

I found a different article that stated that the event took place on church property.

 

I don't know why a school event would be held on church property. :confused:

 

http://www.pnj.com/article/20090917/NEWS01/909170317&referrer=FRONTPAGECAROUSEL

The link was back two pages.

 

This is the link to the article which states they were on church property. It also has the judge's reasoning behind dropping the charges.

Edited September 19, 2009 by lionfamily1999

[lionfamily1999]

Most likely we are talking about salaried, not hourly workers. They can offer any event outside of school hours and elsewhere if they wish. It's up to others whether they attend or not. If it's off campus, they couldn't force or coerce the others there.

It was a building dedication, not in the middle of the school day, it was an after school thing for the people that had helped get the money and the building up.

[Spy Car]

Prayers like this are not meant to "proselytize" and even if you don't believe in God, how can your heart be so hard that if someone prays to the God they believe in to bless YOU for your help you get offended and want to put them in jail?

 

 

Further reading makes it clear this Principle Lay has used his position to proselytize students.

 

From the Washington Post:

 

"It seems that Principal Frank Lay has been trying to use his freedom of religion to turn Pace High School into a sort of Sunday school.

 

According to court documents, the Pace High Teacher Handbook required school personnel to "embrace every opportunity to inculcate, by precept and example, the practice of every Christian virtue."

 

School and district officials "often led or directed students in prayer at extracurricular and athletic events, arranged for prayer during graduation ceremonies, proselytized students during and outside of class, and sponsored religious baccalaureate services. One teacher displayed a waist-high white cross in her classroom."

 

After being taken to court for these activities, Lay agreed to stop religious coercion and proselytizing efforts, but he didn't like up to his word. Shame on him.

 

Bill

[mommaduck]

It was a building dedication, not in the middle of the school day, it was an after school thing for the people that had helped get the money and the building up.

Thank you. Definitely not something to work a sweat up about. If it were in the middle of the school day, in the school, and a captive audience, that would have me screaming also. But this wasn't.

[Spy Car]

It was a building dedication, not in the middle of the school day, it was an after school thing for the people that had helped get the money and the building up.

 

On a public school campus, yes?

 

With a school principle who was legally enjoyed from this sort of activity, yes?

 

Can we just flout the law because we have zeal and are self-righteous?

 

The man violated his word. And violated the rights of his students. He should have done jail time.

 

Bill

[lionfamily1999]

On a public school campus, yes?

 

With a school principle who was legally enjoyed from this sort of activity, yes?

 

Can we just flout the law because we have zeal and are self-righteous?

 

The man violated his word. And violated the rights of his students. He should have done jail time.

 

Bill

No, on CHURCH PROPERTY. He was barred from it IN SCHOOL.

[Heather in Neverland]

Because it is coercive and creates a hostile environment for those not of the majority faith to have Christian prayers pushed upon them. I fail to see how you can't understand the position this puts non-Christians (especially children) in.

 

So either you bite your tongue and go along, or you protest you freedoms being infringed. It's wrong to push your religion (or anti-religion) on children. This has no place in a public school, and it is the height of arrogance to ignore Court Orders and to subvert the laws of our land (not to mention good manners) just because one is a true believer in their own righteousness.

 

Bill

 

The room was filled with people who helped make this project happen. The leaders of the meeting wanted to thank them and they did so in a way that was the most meaningful way they knew how...they prayed blessings and thanks.

 

Now maybe the people in the room do not believe in God but if someone chooses to honor you and they use the most meaningful way that they know of to do it (asking their God to bless these people), I would feel HONORED not "co-erced" or "infringed upon".

 

I have friends who are missionaries. They were visiting a village that was very remote and they brought much needed medicine and food to this village. To show their gratitude, the village (not christian) prayed THEIR way of praying to THEIR gods, did their tribal dances to THEIR gods, and even slaughtered and roasted several chickens in honor of my friends even though food is so scarce that this was a monumental expense for them. And my friends are also vegetarians.

 

Now what should they have done in this situation? Turned their backs and walked away? Gotten unbelievably offended that these people would DARE to offer up prayers and rituals of thanks to their OWN gods instead of to the christian god? Scorned them?

 

No. They smiled, choked down the meat when offered to them, and thanked them for the blessings and honor bestowed on them. Because they have class and compassion and care for their fellow man. The tribal people were NOT trying to convert them just as these principals were NOT trying to convert their audience.

 

But to offer such a prayer of blessing (no matter what religion it comes from) on a group of people is an HONOR not an OFFENSE.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Heather in NC

[Spy Car]

The room was filled with people who helped make this project happen. The leaders of the meeting wanted to thank them and they did so in a way that was the most meaningful way they knew how...they prayed blessings and thanks.

 

And they did so AFTER giving their word they would no longer do so, and after a Court settlement which found they were proselytizing and creating a hostile environment at school.

 

So they lied to the Court. And violated a Consent Decree. Which will get you jail time where justice prevails.

 

This was not a "one-off" prayer. This was part of a pattern by a principle to use his position to proselytize children. That is wrong. Wrong. Wrong.

 

Now maybe the people in the room do not believe in God but if someone chooses to honor you and they use the most meaningful way that they know of to do it (asking their God to bless these people), I would feel HONORED not "co-erced" or "infringed upon".

 

Students at the school felt other-wise Heather. And they were forced to take the Principle to court to stop his infringement on their freedoms and the students prevailed. No small matter.

 

Principle Lay was under a Court order not to do what he did.

 

You may think it's OK. But some of his students felt strongly otherwise. Strongly enough to go to Court to stop him.

 

They surely didn't see his as loving acts of kindness. And I would not feel "honored" to have a person in authority force his religion on me or my child.

 

It is a grave offense to abuse authority in the way this man has (repeatedly). It is dishonorable and illegal.

 

Bill

Edited September 19, 2009 by Spy Car

[mommaduck]

And they did so AFTER giving their word they would no longer do so, and after a Court settlement which found they were proselytizing and creating a hostile environment at school.

 

So they lied to the Court. And violated a Consent Decree. Which will get you jail time where justice prevails.

 

Bill

 

 

Nope. Instead they went and held a non-school event, off school property, where attendance was optional. There is nothing saying that they can't go to a church an pray in thanksgiving for a new building as a group and on their own time.

[Spy Car]

Nope. Instead they went and held a non-school event, off school property, where attendance was optional. There is nothing saying that they can't go to a church an pray in thanksgiving for a new building as a group and on their own time.

 

All the news reports I've read say the event was at the Public High School and not a church and was a "school event".

 

If people want to go to a non-school event after school hours at a church to pray, who'd have a problem with that?

 

A school event at a church, with prayer? At a school with a Court Decree against its administrators where there is prayer? Big problem.

 

But where do you get this was at a church? Ever thing I've read said this was a luncheon at school. If that is the case, it is wrong, no?

 

Bill

[mommaduck]

All the news reports I've read say the event was at the Public High School and not a church and was a "school event".

 

If people want to go to a non-school event after school hours at a church to pray, who'd have a problem with that?

 

A school event at a church, with prayer? At a school with a Court Decree against its administrators where there is prayer? Big problem.

 

But where do you get this was at a church? Ever thing I've read said this was a luncheon at school. If that is the case, it is wrong, no?

 

Bill

What I read talked about it being a luncheon...as in a special meal/event held somewhere off campus.

[Spy Car]

No, on CHURCH PROPERTY. He was barred from it IN SCHOOL.

 

Futher reading of a multitude of news reports show this happened ON CAMPUS at a SCHOOL EVENT at LUNCH TIME on a SCHOOL DAY.

 

Not after school, not at a church, not at a non-school event, not with "consenting" adults.

 

DURING SCHOOL, ON CAMPUS, with an audience of STUDENTS, FACULTY, AND MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

What I read talked about it being a luncheon...as in a special meal/event held somewhere off campus.

 

On campus.

[mommaduck]

On campus.

Show me where it specifically says that it was held AT the school.

[mommaduck]

This is why the ruling went the way it did.

 

the event was for adults -- and not for students -- it fell into a different category and was exempted from the types of school-sponsored activities in which prayer was expressly forbidden.

[Spy Car]

Show me where it specifically says that it was held AT the school.

 

It say so in every major news story. The first one at hand, the Miami Herald

 

"Assistant U.S. Attorney Randy Hensel had argued that the two men read and accepted the court order and knew that praying at the lunch meeting on school property was an obvious violation of the court's agreement."

 

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/florida/AP/story/1237706.html