Going to jail for PRAYING?

[Spy Car]

If this case were anywhere near as clear cut as you are portraying it, I seriously doubt that the judge would have plainly ruled that he did *not* in fact violate the court order by his actions.

 

But that is not what she ruled. She said he *did* violate the Court Order, but she she wavered on whether it was *intentional* (while speculating in open court that it might have been) and so, with the *possibility* the violation was inadvertent, she let him off.

 

Who knows what effect demonstrators outside the court supporting Lay had on the ruling? But I've never heard of a Judge entertaining a "I forgot" defense in a legal case.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

It sounds to me from most of the articles that this was an event on school property, but not during school hours, and was not primarily for students, but for fundraisers and community members.

 

It was on a school day, at lunch, with students present. There is testimony to that effect and all mainstream media are reporting these facts without exception.

 

 

From my reading, it appears that this fact was a central reason for the judge's ruling... that it was reasonable to conclude that the two men in question did not perceive prayer in this situation to violate the standing order, because students were not present.

 

Students were present. And student "non-presence" was not part of her ruling according to published reports, instead her ruling was based solely upon "intention." And on that issue she made a very odd decision. But politics is politics, and justice was not done.

 

Bill

[Erica in PA]

Why not? Locally where I live there are 2 judges that are going to jail for severe corruption. Judges are human too so it is possible that a judge's opinions or beliefs may "color" their judgments IMHO. I do believe that most judges are good BTW and I am not implying that most are not or that this particular judge was not. I am just saying it is theoretically possible that the judgment was affected.

 

This was the same judge who ordered the initial injunction, and also filed the contempt charges. It doesn't seem credible to me that in some people's eyes she was upstanding and right while opposing these men previously, and suddenly possibly corrupt when she rules in their favor one time. Imo, if she is the one who gave these rulings and guidelines, she would know if they have been violated or not. She ruled that what these men did, did *not* violate her order. Are any of us more familiar with these circumstances and the law than she is, to say that she was suddenly wrong on this ruling? It's particularly far-fetched to suggest so, when none of us even know if students were present, how many, if this was a community event, if it happened during school hours, etc.

[Erica in PA]

But that is not what she ruled. She said he *did* violate the Court Order, but she she wavered on whether it was *intentional* (while speculating in open court that it might have been) and so, with the *possibility* the violation was inadvertent, she let him off.

 

Who knows what effect demonstrators outside the court supporting Lay had on the ruling? But I've never heard of a Judge entertaining a "I forgot" defense in a legal case.

 

Bill

 

 

I don't know which particular news sources you are relying on, but what you are saying your sources say, I am not finding. (And no, I am not looking at any faith-related or conservative news sources.) Not much is known for sure about the details of this case, no matter how forcefully you may seek to relate your understanding of them. For example, I keep reading over and over that the judge found the two men "not guilty" of violating her order. She ruled that what they did, did *not* violate her court order. As far as who was present, some articles say students were present, some say only a few culinary students who were serving food, some say inly fundraisers and boosters/community members, some say during the school day, some after school hours.... there is no way of knowing which details are correct at this point.

[Mrs Mungo]

She ruled that what these men did, did *not* violate her order.

 

Not what was stated. Again, this is from the last newspaper quoted:

Following the lecture, Rodgers first addressed Freeman, Pace’s athletic director, and found him not guilty. She concluded when he prayed at a school event at Lay’s request, his action was “inadvertent and was based on habit rather than intentional violation†of the injunction.

 

He did not understand that it applied to *all* school sponsored functions. Criminal contempt of court has a high burden of proof and this case did not meet the burden of proof that he *willfully* violated the court order.

 

It's particularly far-fetched to suggest so, when none of us even know if students were present, how many, if this was a community event, if it happened during school hours, etc.

 

The local newspaper accounts quote court testimony that students served the meal and were therefore present, it was on school property. The judge found it was in violation but that he did not willfully violate it.

[Spy Car]

It's particularly far-fetched to suggest so, when none of us even know if students were present, how many, if this was a community event, if it happened during school hours, etc.

 

We do know. There was testimony for a School Board official (who has a lot to lose) that there *were* students present at a school time event (at lunch) at a Public School.

 

Bill

[Erica in PA]

It was on a school day, at lunch, with students present. There is testimony to that effect and all mainstream media are reporting these facts without exception.

 

 

 

A cafeteria full of students during lunch period is a much different scenario than a luncheon for community members with a couple students serving food, and both of those scenarios are described in various news articles. There was a reason why this principal stopped praying at numerous events where he previously would have prayed, in order to follow the judge's order, as she noted. It doesn't make sense to me that he would make those changes, and then suddenly barge into the high school cafeteria full of students and pray. It also doesn't make any sense that the judge would not find him guilty if he did that. It's much more logical to conclude that he perceived this as a different kind of situation, one that he did not think met the criteria that was set before him. Therefore, until the details are more plainly presented than they have been, I think it's a big jump to make the conclusions that you are.

[Erica in PA]

 

 

The local newspaper accounts quote court testimony that students served the meal and were therefore present, it was on school property. The judge found it was in violation but that he did not willfully violate it.

 

As I said before, there is a huge difference between a couple students serving food, and a room full of students in the cafeteria. If the former is all it was, that should be noted, rather than just saying that this prayer included "students." That is very misleading.

[Erica in PA]

We do know. There was testimony for a School Board official (who has a lot to lose) that there *were* students present at a school time event (at lunch) at a Public School.

 

Bill

 

How many students? 500? 5? Were they attending the luncheon, or serving food? It makes a difference.

[Erica in PA]

I think you missed the part in your quote where the judge ruled that he was "not guilty" of violating the injunction. :confused:

[Mrs Mungo]

I think you missed the part in your quote where the judge ruled that he was "not guilty" of violating the injunction. :confused:

 

That is not what she said!!! They were not guilty of intentionally/willfully violating the injunction!

 

As far as noting that it was not an event for the students, the students were serving lunch, both Spycar and I posted articles *and quotes* that said that. I'm not sure what you are arguing here.

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

This was the same judge who ordered the initial injunction, and also filed the contempt charges. It doesn't seem credible to me that in some people's eyes she was upstanding and right while opposing these men previously, and suddenly possibly corrupt when she rules in their favor one time. Imo, if she is the one who gave these rulings and guidelines, she would know if they have been violated or not. She ruled that what these men did, did *not* violate her order. Are any of us more familiar with these circumstances and the law than she is, to say that she was suddenly wrong on this ruling? It's particularly far-fetched to suggest so, when none of us even know if students were present, how many, if this was a community event, if it happened during school hours, etc.

 

This sounds reasonable to me and I was not responding to all of the facts in the story which I do not have which is my fault. I was just speaking in generalities:)

[Erica in PA]

That is not what she said!!! They were not guilty of intentionally/willfully violating the injunction!

 

As far as noting that it was not an event for the students, the students were serving lunch, both Spycar and I posted articles *and quotes* that said that. I'm not sure what you are arguing here.

 

And I'm not sure why you are arguing with me. There was a ruling, it was "not guilty." What is to debate about that?

 

ETA: I'm even more confused now because I just read over some of your posts, and you made exactly the same point that I was making here.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Erica in PA

[Mrs Mungo]

And I'm not sure why you are arguing with me. There was a ruling, it was "not guilty." What is to debate about that?

 

You are arguing they were found not guilty of violating the court order. That isn't the case. They were heavily lectured by the judge because they *did* violate the court order. They weren't charged with violating a court order. They were charged with contempt of court which carries the burden of intentionally and willfully violating the court order. You are claiming they were found not guilty of something different than what they were charged with.

[Spy Car]

A cafeteria full of students during lunch period is a much different scenario than a luncheon for community members with a couple students serving food, and both of those scenarios are described in various news articles. There was a reason why this principal stopped praying at numerous events where he previously would have prayed, in order to follow the judge's order, as she noted. It doesn't make sense to me that he would make those changes, and then suddenly barge into the high school cafeteria full of students and pray. It also doesn't make any sense that the judge would not find him guilty if he did that. It's much more logical to conclude that he perceived this as a different kind of situation, one that he did not think met the criteria that was set before him. Therefore, until the details are more plainly presented than they have been, I think it's a big jump to make the conclusions that you are.

 

It's still a violation of a Court order to lead prayers at Public School with 1 child present or 500. Especially when you are under a Court Order to *stop* doing exaclty what the Principal did.

 

What's not clear about that?

 

He got off because the Judge said the violation may have been unintentional, but he didn't get off because there wasn't a violation. He violated the Court Order, he just wasn't held to account.

 

Bill

[Erica in PA]

You are arguing they were found not guilty of violating the court order. That isn't the case. They were heavily lectured by the judge because they *did* violate the court order. They weren't charged with violating a court order. They were charged with contempt of court which carries the burden of intentionally and willfully violating the court order. You are claiming they were found not guilty of something different than what they were charged with.

 

:confused: I don't get it. Sorry!

[Slartibartfast]

Well I guess Politicians have gotten off for accidentally selling weapons and accidentally engaging the services of a prostitute so why not?

[mommaduck]

As far as the presence of a few students serving during a luncheon vs a room full of students being led in prayer...

 

If they were at a restaurant and students, working there, were present when the adults held a prayer over the meal....this also would be seen as different than a room full of students. The devil is in the details.

[Mrs Mungo]

:confused: I don't get it. Sorry!

 

Let me try to put it in more simple terms.

 

They violated a court order. They were charged with contempt of court. The judge found they were not guilty of contempt of court. The reason they were found not guilty was because 1. it seems they didn't understand that the court order applied to *all* school sponsored events and 2. they claim that they prayed out of habit rather than out of intentional disobedience of the court's order. They were lectured by the judge who explained the injunction (which I linked a little while back, on pg 19 or 20) further to them.

 

If they had said "we prayed because we aren't going to submit to the court's authority" then they would have been found guilty.

[RubberChickenGirl]

<snip>

 

I don't know what the answer is. If these guys are blessing meals and not demanding every head bowed, then I don't see the problem. If they're forcing the people to repeat the prayer or take part, then I get it. Yes, I understand there was a court order, but where does the court get off telling someone they can't pray at all? I would understand if it said they could not induce or coerce others into praying with them, but not allowing them to pray at all? That seems to go to far, imo. As a Christian, I would see that as putting me in the position where I have to choose which authority I listen to, God or man.

 

My view exactly.

[RubberChickenGirl]

As a sort of on point comment....do ya'll know that Turkish Muslims are starting up Charter Schools at a rapid clip? I am sure they'll be very careful to not proselytize directly:

 

The SKY Foundation Charter Schools Front for Turkish Muslim Organization

 

 

The Discovery School of Tulsa. According to the Tulsa World:

 

Kaan Camuz, an employee of the Stillwater-based Sky Foundation, said that group will operate the Discovery School of Tulsa, which initially will be for kindergarten through eighth-grade students.

 

The Sky Foundation already operates the Dove Science Academies in Tulsa and Oklahoma City.

The school boasts about it's cultural diversity emphasis:

 

Discovery School of Tulsa infuses

multicultural content throughout the curriculum.

This honors students’ home culture, gives

them the opportunity to study their own and other cultures,

and to develop cultural sensitivity.

Then I found that a woman on a blog warned that the school is a front for Turkish Muslims. The school and articles about it don't say that anywhere in so many words. You have to dig for the info and put the pieces of the puzzle together. The school sponsors trips to Turkey and the Turkish language is offered. The leadership of the SKY Foundation includes names like Bilal Erturk, Kaan Camuz, Barbaros Aslan, and Burak Yilmaz. When you search under Kaan Camuz' name you find that the SKY Foundation has NO website that I can find.... They have opened schools in Oklahoma City, Tulsa (Discovery School discussed above), and Arkansas. According to the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette : (forgive small font)

 

The Sky Foundation of Stillwater, Okla., which operates four charter schools in Tulsa and Oklahoma City, wants to establish the Dove School of Excellence in the Fayetteville and Springdale areas. The school, offering an emphasis on science, math and technology, would serve some 300 students initially in grades kindergarten through eight and then expand to 500 students in kindergarten through 12th grades.

Furthermore, the article reads:

The 14 proposals for the independently run charter schools come at a time when President Barack Obama and U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan are calling for states to lift caps on charter schools. Duncan has warned that states with limits on charter school numbers will jeopardize their eligibility to receive some of the federal stimulus grants.

 

Further, Kaan Camuz is principle of Harmony Science Academy in Austin, TX. The website lists more than 25 locations in TX alone. The parent organization mentions 9 locations elsewhere. You cannot access the staff names unless you are enrolled at the schools. According to Wiki, these schools in TX are fronted by the Cosmos Foundation. I am unsure if there are Muslim underpinnings to CF. The website reads:

 

The Board of Directors

;

The Board of Directors of the Cosmos Foundation is made up of dedicated educators distinguished community members. Members of the Board have a great deal of experience in law, medicine, science, mathematics, and computer education at a national as well as at an international level. Members of this unique board are volunteers and no member is paid for the services he or she provides.

The names of the board members are strangely absent. It is challenging to find staff names at the TX schools but names like Nihant Guvericn of Dallas, RAMAZAN COSKUNER in Austin, Murat Kaya in Euless, Emra Orel in Brownsville, Ali Tekin in Bryan, and Ugur Demircan in Houstan pop up with a Google Search via Harmony Science Principal.

***

 

An interesting back door approach to influence.

[mommaduck]

Yes, while researching this issue, I ran across articles dealing with PUBLIC Charter Schools that were Muslim run...prayers, rituals washings in the bathroom, halel (sp) food, etc. Testimony of a substitute teacher stated that all these things were taking place. The supervisor of the school refused access to the reporter that wanted to go in to one.

 

As a sort of on point comment....do ya'll know that Turkish Muslims are starting up Charter Schools at a rapid clip? I am sure they'll be very careful to not proselytize directly:

 

The SKY Foundation Charter Schools Front for Turkish Muslim Organization

 

 

The Discovery School of Tulsa. According to the Tulsa World:

 

Kaan Camuz, an employee of the Stillwater-based Sky Foundation, said that group will operate the Discovery School of Tulsa, which initially will be for kindergarten through eighth-grade students.

 

The Sky Foundation already operates the Dove Science Academies in Tulsa and Oklahoma City.

The school boasts about it's cultural diversity emphasis:

Discovery School of Tulsa infuses

multicultural content throughout the curriculum.

This honors students’ home culture, gives

them the opportunity to study their own and other cultures,

and to develop cultural sensitivity.

Then I found that a woman on a blog warned that the school is a front for Turkish Muslims. The school and articles about it don't say that anywhere in so many words. You have to dig for the info and put the pieces of the puzzle together. The school sponsors trips to Turkey and the Turkish language is offered. The leadership of the SKY Foundation includes names like Bilal Erturk, Kaan Camuz, Barbaros Aslan, and Burak Yilmaz. When you search under Kaan Camuz' name you find that the SKY Foundation has NO website that I can find.... They have opened schools in Oklahoma City, Tulsa (Discovery School discussed above), and Arkansas. According to the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette : (forgive small font)

The Sky Foundation of Stillwater, Okla., which operates four charter schools in Tulsa and Oklahoma City, wants to establish the Dove School of Excellence in the Fayetteville and Springdale areas. The school, offering an emphasis on science, math and technology, would serve some 300 students initially in grades kindergarten through eight and then expand to 500 students in kindergarten through 12th grades.

Furthermore, the article reads:

The 14 proposals for the independently run charter schools come at a time when President Barack Obama and U.S. Secretary of Education Arne Duncan are calling for states to lift caps on charter schools. Duncan has warned that states with limits on charter school numbers will jeopardize their eligibility to receive some of the federal stimulus grants.

 

Further, Kaan Camuz is principle of Harmony Science Academy in Austin, TX. The website lists more than 25 locations in TX alone. The parent organization mentions 9 locations elsewhere. You cannot access the staff names unless you are enrolled at the schools. According to Wiki, these schools in TX are fronted by the Cosmos Foundation. I am unsure if there are Muslim underpinnings to CF. The website reads:

The Board of Directors

;

The Board of Directors of the Cosmos Foundation is made up of dedicated educators distinguished community members. Members of the Board have a great deal of experience in law, medicine, science, mathematics, and computer education at a national as well as at an international level. Members of this unique board are volunteers and no member is paid for the services he or she provides.

The names of the board members are strangely absent. It is challenging to find staff names at the TX schools but names like Nihant Guvericn of Dallas, RAMAZAN COSKUNER in Austin, Murat Kaya in Euless, Emra Orel in Brownsville, Ali Tekin in Bryan, and Ugur Demircan in Houstan pop up with a Google Search via Harmony Science Principal.

***

 

An interesting back door approach to influence.

[Spy Car]

Yes, while researching this issue, I ran across articles dealing with PUBLIC Charter Schools that were Muslim run...prayers, rituals washings in the bathroom, halel (sp) food, etc. Testimony of a substitute teacher stated that all these things were taking place. The supervisor of the school refused access to the reporter that wanted to go in to one.

 

Where's the ACLU when we need them?

 

Perhaps we should all send them a check :D

 

Bill

[fivetails]

Y'know, I keep looking at this thread...and I keep being surprised by how long it's gone on....cuz I have a funny feeling that if this had happened here (Canada), the fuss would long be over ~ if it had ever gotten to the fuss at all. We're a hard bunch to get fussed over much. ;)

 

I don't know ~ it's just pretty much impossible for me to imagine feeling "offended" or as if I'd been some sort of victim to a "hostile act" when someone stood over there and said a loud prayer. :001_huh:

 

Yeah, I'm a Christian ~ but please don't let that colour my reaction above, because I've been on the other side as well.. two of my parents are Atheists and that's how I was raised for quite a few years, while all the time going to "religion" class at school - mandatory class, just as Math, French, Language Arts, and all that. It never bothered me. *shrug*

 

Now, as an adult and as a Christian, I still don't get "offended" if someone offers a prayer to another deity/whatever around me... if I was at a function and someone stood up to offer a prayer to a God/Goddess/whatever that I don't believe is the true God, I would simply sit respectfully until they were finished. I wouldn't participate, as I don't pray to or believe in that deity -- but I wouldn't feel like they were being "hostile" ~ unless they were brandishing a hockey stick over my head at the same time. That would make it a wee bit different. :tongue_smilie:

[RubberChickenGirl]

Yes, while researching this issue, I ran across articles dealing with PUBLIC Charter Schools that were Muslim run...prayers, rituals washings in the bathroom, halel (sp) food, etc. Testimony of a substitute teacher stated that all these things were taking place. The supervisor of the school refused access to the reporter that wanted to go in to one.

 

Interesting. All I could gather from my research was that they promoted diversity big time, continually promote Isl*m as peace loving, provide Turkish language and the trips to Turkey. I assumed that they would spend their 8-12 years w/ a student promoting those things and soft-selling Isl*m and developing future allies. Had no idea they were openly doing all of the above.

[mommaduck]

The only reason I bring this up is that people are screaming over praying on the public dole, yet there doesn't seem to be the same hullabub when it's coming from elsewhere.

 

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-US%3Aofficial&hs=yub&q=Islamic+charter+school+public&aq=f&oq=&aqi=

 

And where the sub spoke about her experience:

http://www.startribune.com/local/17406054.html

 

Looks like the ACLU did get involved. I believe the ACLU had good intentions and good beginnings. But I also believe that it, like many entities, became corrupt as well as picks and chooses rather than equally representing.

[Spy Car]

Y'know, I keep looking at this thread...and I keep being surprised by how long it's gone on....cuz I have a funny feeling that if this had happened here (Canada), the fuss would long be over ~ if it had ever gotten to the fuss at all. We're a hard bunch to get fussed over much. ;)

 

I don't know ~ it's just pretty much impossible for me to imagine feeling "offended" or as if I'd been some sort of victim to a "hostile act" when someone stood over there and said a loud prayer. :001_huh:

 

Yeah, I'm a Christian ~ but please don't let that colour my reaction above, because I've been on the other side as well.. two of my parents are Atheists and that's how I was raised for quite a few years, while all the time going to "religion" class at school - mandatory class, just as Math, French, Language Arts, and all that. It never bothered me. *shrug*

 

Now, as an adult and as a Christian, I still don't get "offended" if someone offers a prayer to another deity/whatever around me... if I was at a function and someone stood up to offer a prayer to a God/Goddess/whatever that I don't believe is the true God, I would simply sit respectfully until they were finished. I wouldn't participate, as I don't pray to or believe in that deity -- but I wouldn't feel like they were being "hostile" ~ unless they were brandishing a hockey stick over my head at the same time. That would make it a wee bit different. :tongue_smilie:

 

Perhaps you didn't read the background on this school and how the Administration was forcing religion on students. This was not an isolated case of a prayer being said.

 

The was a court order against further actions of this sort.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Interesting. All I could gather from my research was that they promoted diversity big time, continually promote Isl*m as peace loving, provide Turkish language and the trips to Turkey. I assumed that they would spend their 8-12 years w/ a student promoting those things and soft-selling Isl*m and developing future allies. Had no idea they were openly doing all of the above.

 

What's with the Isl*m? :glare:

[mommaduck]

What's with the Isl*m? :glare:

It might be similar to how some Jewish mamas on another board type x-tian or xtian, because it is offensive to them to refer to Christians as Christians. Took me a bit to understand that, but accepted it as a matter of conscience ;)

[fivetails]

Y'know, I keep looking at this thread...and I keep being surprised by how long it's gone on....cuz I have a funny feeling that if this had happened here (Canada), the fuss would long be over ~ if it had ever gotten to the fuss at all. We're a hard bunch to get fussed over much. ;)

 

I don't know ~ it's just pretty much impossible for me to imagine feeling "offended" or as if I'd been some sort of victim to a "hostile act" when someone stood over there and said a loud prayer. :001_huh:

 

Yeah, I'm a Christian ~ but please don't let that colour my reaction above, because I've been on the other side as well.. two of my parents are Atheists and that's how I was raised for quite a few years, while all the time going to "religion" class at school - mandatory class, just as Math, French, Language Arts, and all that. It never bothered me. *shrug*

 

Now, as an adult and as a Christian, I still don't get "offended" if someone offers a prayer to another deity/whatever around me... if I was at a function and someone stood up to offer a prayer to a God/Goddess/whatever that I don't believe is the true God, I would simply sit respectfully until they were finished. I wouldn't participate, as I don't pray to or believe in that deity -- but I wouldn't feel like they were being "hostile" ~ unless they were brandishing a hockey stick over my head at the same time. That would make it a wee bit different. :tongue_smilie:

Perhaps you didn't read the background on this school and how the Administration was forcing religion on students. This was not an isolated case of a prayer being said.

 

The was a court order against further actions of this sort.

 

Bill

 

You mean kinda like how I went to those "religion" classes? ;)

 

(Ha - y'know how they split us? Catholics and Protestants. Two groups, headed to two different rooms for that class. The Catholics were the french kids with the cool beads and the Protestants were the rest of us. :lol: )

[Spy Car]

It might be similar to how some Jewish mamas on another board type x-tian or xtian, because it is offensive to them to refer to Christians as Christians. Took me a bit to understand that, but accepted it as a matter of conscience ;)

 

I'll admit x-tian is not my favorite form.

 

But it least make arguable sense that some people who sincerely don't believe Jesus was not/is not the Messiah might want to avoid the "Christ" in Christian. Again, I don't love it.

 

But Isl*m?

 

This formulation seems designed for no purpose other than to connote disrespect.

 

Bill

Edited September 22, 2009 by Spy Car

[Spy Car]

You mean kinda like how I went to those "religion" classes? ;)

 

(Ha - y'know how they split us? Catholics and Protestants. Two groups, headed to two different rooms for that class. The Catholics were the french kids with the cool beads and the Protestants were the rest of us. :lol: )

 

Yea. Theoretically that isn't legal in the USA. Not in Public Schools.

 

Bill

[mommaduck]

I'll admit x-tian is not my favorite form.

 

But it least make arguable sense that some people who sincerely don't believe Jesus was/is the Messiah might want to avoid the "Christ" in Christian.

 

But Isl*m?

 

This formulation seems designed for no purpose other than to connote disrespect.

 

Bill

I was guessing. I have no dog in that fight ;) Maybe because they don't believe that the word used for that religion is accurate (depending on how you define it...submission or peace). Then it would be like avoiding Christ if you didn't believe that Jesus was/is the Christ/Messiah....they don't believe that Islam is Peace. *shrugs*

 

 

Be interesting to hear why she chose to type that way anyhow.

[RubberChickenGirl]

What's with the Isl*m? :glare:

 

Sorry. Just my paranoia about writing about controversial subjects on public domains.

[fivetails]

You mean kinda like how I went to those "religion" classes? ;)

 

(Ha - y'know how they split us? Catholics and Protestants. Two groups, headed to two different rooms for that class. The Catholics were the french kids with the cool beads and the Protestants were the rest of us. :lol: )

 

Yea. Theoretically that isn't legal in the USA. Not in Public Schools.

 

Bill

 

Well, this *was* elementary school ~ I'm 32 ~ and on an airforce base, for whatever that's worth. They also gave out the strap and kept the grade five teacher who had a tendency to pick kids up by the scruff when they acted out. Maybe not such a good example. :tongue_smilie:

[mommaduck]

Sorry. Just my paranoia about writing about controversial subjects on public domains.

People that would do those kinds of searches would also search using the same type of break up you did of the word.

[fivetails]

Sorry. Just my paranoia about writing about controversial subjects on public domains.

 

I wouldn't call Islam a "controversial subject" ~ it's a different faith - and one that a fair few board members practice, if memory serves. I don't think they'd feel too great about their faith being looked as something that needed 'soft-selling" or was some sort of weird conspiracy to take over the minds of "charter school" kids. :confused:

 

{I have no idea what a "charter school" is ~ private school?}

[Ibbygirl]

 

{I have no idea what a "charter school" is ~ private school?}

 

 

From wiki. :) Hope this helps. :)

 

Charter schools are elementary or secondary schools in the United States that receive public money but have been freed from some of the rules, regulations, and statutes that apply to other public schools in exchange for some type of accountability for producing certain results, which are set forth in each school's charter.[1] Charter schools are opened and attended by choice.[2]

While charter schools provide an alternative to other public schools, they are part of the public education system and are not allowed to charge tuition. Where enrollment in a charter school is over subscribed, admission is frequently allocated by lottery-based admissions. In a 2008 survey of charter schools, 59% of the schools reported that they had a waiting list, averaging 198 students.[3] Some charter schools provide a curriculum that specializes in a certain field—e.g. arts, mathematics, etc. Others attempt to provide a better and more efficient general education than nearby public schools.

Some charter schools are founded by teachers, parents, or activists who feel restricted by traditional public schools.[4] State-authorized charters (schools not chartered by local school districts) are often established by non-profit groups, universities, and some government entities.[5] Additionally, school districts sometimes permit corporations to open chains of for-profit charter schools.

[Spy Car]

[

I wouldn't call Islam a "controversial subject" ~ it's a different faith - and one that a fair few board members practice, if memory serves. I don't think they'd feel too great about their faith being looked as something that needed 'soft-selling" or was some sort of weird conspiracy to take over the minds of "charter school" kids. :confused:

 

 

Amen sister :001_smile:

 

Bill

[fivetails]

{I have no idea what a "charter school" is ~ private school?}

 

From wiki. :) Hope this helps. :)

 

Charter schools are elementary or secondary schools in the United States that receive public money but have been freed from some of the rules, regulations, and statutes that apply to other public schools in exchange for some type of accountability for producing certain results, which are set forth in each school's charter.[1] Charter schools are opened and attended by choice.[2]

While charter schools provide an alternative to other public schools, they are part of the public education system and are not allowed to charge tuition. Where enrollment in a charter school is over subscribed, admission is frequently allocated by lottery-based admissions. In a 2008 survey of charter schools, 59% of the schools reported that they had a waiting list, averaging 198 students.[3] Some charter schools provide a curriculum that specializes in a certain field—e.g. arts, mathematics, etc. Others attempt to provide a better and more efficient general education than nearby public schools.

Some charter schools are founded by teachers, parents, or activists who feel restricted by traditional public schools.[4] State-authorized charters (schools not chartered by local school districts) are often established by non-profit groups, universities, and some government entities.[5] Additionally, school districts sometimes permit corporations to open chains of for-profit charter schools.

 

So they're... kinda like "free" private schools. Or usually free. Cool. :D

 

They might very well exist here (country) and I've just never heard of them ~ or they could exist under a different sort of name...

 

Thanks for the explanation!

[Ibbygirl]

So they're... kinda like "free" private schools. Cool. :D

 

They might very well exist here (country) and I've just never heard of them ~ or they could exist under a different sort of name...

 

Thanks for the explanation!

 

:) My pleasure. I think they're kind of a cross between public and private at least the one my dd went to for one year was. It got public money as well as private so it was free, but they didn't have bussing or anything like the public schools do. They also had an arts program that the regular public schools didn't have but they still took FCATS (standardized tests) which are required for all public schools in my state.

[Spy Car]

So they're... kinda like "free" private schools. Or usually free. Cool. :D

 

They might very well exist here (country) and I've just never heard of them ~ or they could exist under a different sort of name...

 

Thanks for the explanation!

 

They are still "public schools" just freed from the school district and teachers unions. They are an attempt to experiment with publicly funded alternatives to traditional public schools and public school administration. And given a fair amount of latitude to specialize or innovate.

 

Bill

[Mrs Mungo]

Then I found that a woman on a blog warned that the school is a front for Turkish Muslims. The school and articles about it don't say that anywhere

 

Really? A single woman on a blog? These schools have been named some of the finest in a very red state (I'm from Oklahoma, that's no put down, just a fact) but they are secretly indoctrinating school children into Islam? Was the blog lady, by any chance, a public school teacher/administrator? Because I could see why some charter schools being named the best in the state might be a threat to the system.

 

I actually have a good friend who teaches at a private school in Tulsa. I'll be interested to see what he has to say about this.

 

The articles linked by mommaduck have no bearing on or relation to the schools mentioned in Oklahoma, as far as I can tell.

[lionfamily1999]

Well I guess Politicians have gotten off for accidentally selling weapons and accidentally engaging the services of a prostitute so why not?

Yes, but those are just silly things that men do. Prayer, though?!? Omg! One of those kids could end up a Christian (Saints Preserve Us!).

Sorry. Just my paranoia about writing about controversial subjects on public domains.

I get it.

[PineFarmMom]

Yes, but those are just silly things that men do. Prayer, though?!? Omg! One of those kids could end up a Christian (Saints Preserve Us!).

 

 

 

:iagree: I can't believe I was seeing prayer compared to those things in the same sentence!!

Edited September 22, 2009 by Texas T

[Spy Car]

:iagree: I can't believe I was seeing prayer compared to those things in the same sentence!!

 

AGAIN, the issue is not *a prayer* it is pattern of forcing religion in an unwanted and hostile fashion on children by a public school principal who has abused his authority (repeatedly).

 

This principal was taken to court for violating the religious freedom of his students, order to *stop* using his position to promote his religious agenda, and then acted to defy that court order.

 

This man has seriously infringed on the rights of his students. What he had done is very wrong, and not something to excuse.

 

Bill

[PineFarmMom]

AGAIN, the issue is not *a prayer* it is pattern of forcing religion in an unwanted and hostile fashion on children by a public school principal who has abused his authority (repeatedly).

 

This principal was taken to court for violating the religious freedom of his students, order to *stop* using his position to promote his religious agenda, and then acted to defy that court order.

 

This man has seriously infringed on the rights of his students. What he had done is very wrong, and not something to excuse.

 

Bill

 

Okay. I'll repeat myself: "I can't believe I was seeing prayer compared to those things in the same sentence!!" Wow, it still means the same thing to me and I still feel pretty correct in my observation that the comparison was ludicrous. That. is. all.

[Slartibartfast]

Yes, but those are just silly things that men do. Prayer, though?!? Omg! One of those kids could end up a Christian (Saints Preserve Us!).

 

 

 

Would you feel the same if it wasn't Christianity that they were proselytizing during class?

 

Heck, they might become a Wiccan, Saints preserve us! Wicca is a peaceful religion, that would be ok with you right??

 

 

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/undergod/2009/09/say_grace_go_to_jail.html?hpid=talkbox1

 

According to court documents, the Pace High Teacher Handbook required school personnel to "embrace every opportunity to inculcate, by precept and example, the practice of every Christian virtue." School and district officials "often led or directed students in prayer at extracurricular and athletic events, arranged for prayer during graduation ceremonies, proselytized students during and outside of class, and sponsored religious baccalaureate services. One teacher displayed a waist-high white cross in her classroom."

I *am* a Christian and if my child's teachers were proselytizing in class I would have strong objections.

 

The point is that it isn't about Christianity. It is wrong for teachers and other school officials to preach to students. It does not matter what religion it is. It is always wrong.

 

 

Edited September 22, 2009 by Sis

[PineFarmMom]

Would you feel the same if it wasn't Christianity that they were proselytizing during class?

 

Heck, they might become a Wiccan, Saints preserve us! Wicca is a peaceful religion, that would be ok with you right??

 

 

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/undergod/2009/09/say_grace_go_to_jail.html?hpid=talkbox1

 

Saying a prayer isn't proselytizing!!

 

I'll turn this. Here is my question to you and those of you who are so appalled: Would you feel the same way if it was Islam or Wiccan or, wow, basically ANYTHING other than Christianity that they were "proselytizing" during class? Whether you admit it or not, most of you wouldn't find that offensive at all. There is a very obvious distinction for most of you that I am guessing you're either proud of (hopefully not) or just are blind to (hopefully so) between Christianity and anything else. Everything BUT Christianity deserves acceptance from what I'm viewing on the boards these days. When the tables are turned, I just don't see the media frenzy and the extreme anger like I do when it's done by a Christian.

[Slartibartfast]

Saying a prayer isn't proselytizing!!

 

I'll turn this. Here is my question to you and those of you who are so appalled: Would you feel the same way if it was Islam or Wiccan or, wow, basically ANYTHING other than Christianity that they were "proselytizing" during class? Whether you admit it or not, most of you wouldn't find that offensive at all. There is a very obvious distinction for most of you that I am guessing you're either proud of (hopefully not) or just are blind to (hopefully so) between Christianity and anything else. Everything BUT Christianity deserves acceptance from what I'm viewing on the boards these days. When the tables are turned, I just don't see the media frenzy and the extreme anger like I do when it's done by a Christian.

 

But they were proselytizing. That is why they were found in contempt. That is what lead to the order being made to begin with.

 

If it was just a prayer without the previous issues there would not have been a fuss. No one would have cared. (well, reasonable people would not have cared anyways)

 

Read my quote. They were proselytizing during class and in between classes.

 

It was because of the previous issues that this is even a story.

 

Also I clearly stated in my post it doesn't matter what religion it is. Proselytizing in public schools by teachers and officials is wrong and a violation of the student's rights.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Sis