I am about to go nuts!

[Nakia]

I think spelling is going to kill us. We started with R&S spelling in 2nd grade, but I didn't like the "memorize a list of words for a test" feel of it. So last year for 3rd grade, we did AAS level one and most of level two. We just finished level two, and my child still can't spell. She can sure recite the rules for spelling though. That is the part that is making me nuts. She isn't implementing the rules, and often can't decide which vowels to use. Also she often gets the letters in the word right, but in the wrong order.

 

Some examples: This week she spelled loud l-o-u-n-d. I just asked her to spell beginning and she said b-e-i-g-n-i-n-g. ARGH!!!!!

 

I am feeling crazy. I had intended to move on to AAS level three when we start back to school in a week (after our break), but I don't even want to. The thing is she reads so well, like a 7th or 8th grade level. The other thing is I am a great natural speller, so I am having a bit of difficulty with trying to teach her to spell. I need help!!! I don't know whether to keep on with AAS or to switch to something else. AAS is teacher-intensive (which I don't really mind, if it would work) and time-consuming. If it's not going to work, it is just going to irritate me to spend so much time on it, KWIM? I don't know if it is something that will come with more practice. I am also sure to help her correct words she spells wrong in her writing, and explain the spelling to her. Should I just hang in there with AAS and correcting her mistakes with writing?

 

 

Out of curiosity, I did a quick little placement test for Sequential Spelling (someone recommended it here recently) and she needs to start at level one according to that. EEEKKK! Of course, I don't know much about that program at all, so I'm not really considering it right now, I was just wondering.

 

Please help me help this child. I have a brother who is so smart, but cannot spell to save his life. He is a police officer, and it has really hurt him in having to write reports and things like that. Not to mention, it is very embarrassing at times for him. I don't want that for Anna.

Thanks for any advice.

[nukeswife]

I'll be anxiously watching. I put my ds (now 10) through AAS 1 and 2 last year with the same results of still not spelling well, although he doesn't remember many of the rules either. I've recently bought Apples and Pears spelling when Phonetic Zoo was fun for him, but not he wasn't retaining anything. I hope to have A&P by next week and we'll see how that goes, but I've also checked into Sequential Spelling as well. That may be my next thing to try if A&P is a bust.

[Snickerdoodle]

We are using Apples and Pears spelling and really like it.

 

I'm curious Nukeswife, why did you sell the "Bears" program from the same makers as apples and pears?

 

ETA or was it the apples and pears did you have?

[MistyJ]

I feel your pain. I started hsing dd in 2nd grade. She's now in 4th, and just can't spell.

 

We started AAS 1 this year. She seems to really enjoy it, but it remains to be seen if she is learning to spell. Ugh, it's hard to hear that AAS didn't work for you. I really have a lot of hope riding on it.

 

Maybe some people never learn to spell? :confused: My husband certainly never did

 

(If you need to sell AAS 2, I need a copy.)

[nukeswife]

We are using Apples and Pears spelling and really like it.

 

I'm curious Nukeswife, why did you sell the "Bears" program from the same makers as apples and pears?

 

ETA or was it the apples and pears did you have?

 

It was Apples and Pears (where's the kicking myself smilie) because I thought PZ was working really well and turns out it was all going in one ear and out the other.

[Rebecca]

I don't know how much help I will be- but I felt compelled to chime in.

I, too, am a natural speller. Think about it... how do you know how to spell? Usually because you have a visual "memory" of the word and also because you can "hear" the sounds in the word correctly. When you "hear" the word you "visualize" it in your mind...

 

SO- with that said... my 9 year old is my oldest and he - so far- has needed lots of help with spelling. This is the approach I have taken:

1.) copywork everyday from the book(s) he is reading... just one selection a day... you could space this through the week as you determine... depending on the length of the passage.

2.) Building Spelling Skills by CLP (or you could use Spelling Workout). This he can do independently.... except for the test. I chose two levels lower than his actual grade and am having him work thru it quickly- completing two levels a year. i.e. he does two lessons in one unit per day- making sure to read EVERYTHING in the workbook. I correct his work everyday- talk with him about it and administer the test.

3.) Spelling Wisdom dictation passages... one or two a week. Day 1 he copies the passage about three times. Day 2 he studies. Day 3 I dictate.

4.) Dictation thru WWE level 2

5.) I have occasionally made personal lists based on his own personal writing and had him study those and then tested him.

 

I hope this gives you some ideas. It is intensive- but it is intensive toward my son- with him having to do the work.

 

Blessings,

Rebecca

[Rebecca]

P.S. I did want to add that using my approach that I shared in this thread- I have seen a great deal of improvement in my son's spelling.

And Nakia- I could post some "doozies" too- if I went and got his notebook!:D

Rebecca

[jg_puppy]

Add me to the list of people that has a 4th grader who is a great reader, but poor speller. We have tried so many different programs. We have had the most success with Apples and Pears spelling. My dd completed Level B last year, and she is doing Level C this year. I am not sure where we will go after Level C. Level D uses a lot of British spellings, and I think that would confuse her. I will be watching this thread for some ideas of where to go after Apples and Pears.

 

Jan

[kalanamak]

The thing is she reads so well, like a 7th or 8th grade level.

 

I was that kid, and it is related to fact that reading is SO easy, spelling seems like the biggest drag on earth. I'd keep plugging away, but she may need motivation: like the desire to write well, or a pony or something like that.

 

Can she spend a year spelling her way to something really special?

 

Unfortunately, I didn't care to spell until I was out of my youth, and I still am learning. I keep swearing I'll start a "frequently missed list". Maybe by the time I'm 60:).

[TwinMominTX]

I could have written almost your exact post. My twins are good readers and TERRIBLE spellers. We did AAS level 1 and most all of of level 2 and they are still terrible spellers. It didn't do anything for us - at all.

 

I ended up deciding to do a remedial phonics program using Saxon Phonics Intervention. Probably a little radical, but I wanted them to really understand and internalize the rules. It takes us about 15-20 minutes to do each lesson. They repeatedly ask to do it first thing in the daily schedule so I guess they enjoy it! We are only about 2 weeks in and I've already seen their spelling improve quite a bit.

 

Edited to add: I never taught my twins any phonics. They picked up the inital sounds and just went from there. I am hoping the remedial work in phonics will help with their spelling.

[shalom22]

I have been using the IEW TWSS with my kids this year. I was watching one of the seminar dvd and the instructor made a statement that really caught my attention regarding spelling. I will try to remember and restate what he said in an understandable way. I will listen to it again tomorrow to verify what I am saying here.

 

The general idea was this: When we 'look' at a word, written down on paper or on a board, our brain takes the whole word in at one time. Like taking a picture. The word goes into the brain without order and it is processed. Our brain does not take the word in one letter at a time in order to process it.

 

But when the word is given orally and we write the word down (even if you spell the word out for the student verbally) or if we are asked to spell out the word verbally, our brain is forced to process the word one letter at a time and in order.

 

Does that make any sense? I am sure there is more to this, but this basic statement was like a lightbulb going off for me and the way I was expecting the kids to learn to spell. I will listen to the seminar again and fill in anything that I missed.

[Cammie]

I just had to thank you for the first laugh of the day - I loved the quote in your signature line about the devil! Too funny!:rofl:

[Sue G in PA]

Samantha- so how does IEW say to teach spelling, then? I was intrigued by your post, but can't really go from that to how then to teach our kids spelling! I, too, have great readers but poor spellers!

[TwinMominTX]

IEW has a spelling program called Phonetic Zoo that is set up this way...

 

A spelling rule is taught and 15 spelling words that follow this rule are then dictated to the student who writes them down.

 

The student then hears the spelling word again with a the correct spelling as a way to correct the work. When they correctly spell all 15 words two times in a row they move on to the next lesson.

[MgoBlue]

Sequential Spelling isn't for everyone. It's not a big deal to start with book one no matter what the age. We do spelling every day & 8 yr old dd doesn't even really study the words anymore before she takes the test. She writes the words she got wrong a couple times & then I retest her on those words.

Here is a link to Cathy Duffy's review of SS: http://cathyduffyreviews.com/spelling-vocabulary/sequential-spelling.htm

 

HTH, Paula

[claire up north]

We use Sequential Spelling and love it. We tried a zillion programs around here; nothing seemed to work, but I am seeing a lot of improvement with SS.

 

Yes, you should start at book 1. And don't be thrown by the first couple of days...it seems waaaaay too easy and babyish. Take it as a gift;) and keep going. Both the words and the vocabulary get much more challenging around Day 10. Use the beginning days to get into a rhythm and to get kids to actually try to figure out each word.

 

Finally, FWIW, I don't think what you are describing is that unusual. I have read that spelling and reading are quite distinct skills and it is not unusual to have a good reader with lousy spelling abilities. This does not seem intuitive to me at all, but I live with some people like that, so I know it's possible. :)

 

Good luck!

[Nakia]

I really appreciate each response!! The best part is knowing I am not alone in the fight to each my child to spell! :001_smile:

[Nakia]

I just had to thank you for the first laugh of the day - I loved the quote in your signature line about the devil! Too funny!:rofl:

 

Don't you love it!?!?!

[dmrranch]

Just wanted to say that it is recommended that you start with Level 1 of Sequential Spelling no matter how old you are. Don't let that stress you. I haven't used the program but I have heard a lot of great things about it from those that have struggled in the past.

[MerryAtHope]

Hi Nakia!

 

Some thoughts for you:

 

First--a lot of kids are not ready to put spelling and writing together yet by 4th grade. They are trying to think about so many things at once--handwriting & neatness, caps, punctuation, grammar, spelling, AND come up with original ideas--it's a lot of skills to bring together. So, I like to break it down. When they write, I have them edit later--either that day if it's short, or the next day if it's more than a sentence. You want fresh eyes looking at their writing, and for them to take time (If it's a paragraph, I let editing be their LA for the day, so they aren't rushing to get through it).

 

I use COPS to help them remember what to look for--Capitalization, Organization (includes neatness & legibility), Punctuation, and Spelling. See what she can find to fix first, and praise for every error she finds.

 

Then you look through for things that she would have learned already in AAS (or other spelling program). She wouldn't have learned beginning yet at the end of level 2, but she HAS learned begin, so you could choose to work on that word. I like to put a light pencil X next to the line for every error in it, and then I hand it back. Let her look again for the errors and see if she can find them. If she can't, point out the specific word, and see if she can fix it. If not, talk her through. If the errors are not phonetically possible, have her sound it out exactly as written--example, with lound, see if she pronounces it as written--if not, you say "lound" and emphasize the /n/ a little. Ask her if there are any extra sounds. See if she can figure out to get rid of the "n."

 

With beginning you could say, "we have only learned the first part of this word, begin, so let's try that part. What's the first syllable in begin?" See if she can come up with "be," and then ask her how to spell be. You could also try saying it as she wrote it--"be-ig-ning. Does that sound right? How can we fix this?"

 

The errors your daughter is making are common for someone who is trying to rely on memorizing spelling the way we might memorize a phone number--she's thinking more in letter names or just the visual of the letters and not paying a lot of attention to the sounds. With spelling, you really want her to do both. This is why AAS Level 1 focuses on segmenting, and why at the beginning of every lesson, they take you through the segmenting of another word.

 

I would keep her doing lots of segmenting work. Dictation helps with this--encourage her to say the sounds as she writes. Also copywork--and copywork can be very hard for some kids (and some resort to saying letter names when they copy something--you want her to think in sounds as she writes). Whenever you are doing the words in AAS, you want her to be segmenting them and thinking through the sounds.

 

With her not knowing which vowels to use, you might want to incorporate a little more review of the phonogram and sound cards. The sound cards are another way of getting her to listen for the sound and write what she hears.

 

I HTH! Merry :-)

[PeterPan]

Nakia, when my dd was at that stage a couple years ago, it had nothing to do with not understanding spelling, which is what AAS, SWR, etc. work on, and everything to do with not using it enough and in context. A wise friend told me to ditch the spelling program, which was only succeeding in making her think she couldn't spell, and start doing dictation from literature. We did and it made a HUGE turnaround for us. Since then I've done it all kinds of ways: from literature, from the Wise Guide sentences, using sentences I make up, etc. It's all good. But we're talking serious quantities, 3/4-1 page written a day. Also she enjoyed the Calvert Spelling cd's (computer). If you don't know what else to do, try the cd's. They're fun and will fill the gap while you sort things out. Some kids just need to use things a lot for them to click. Some kids just aren't detail-oriented. My dd is a seive for any facts, be they spelling, math, whatever. But boy is she good on stuff with a context like history! That's why I finally realized her spelling was going to have to be in context.

 

That's what worked for us. If your problem goes on for too long, or if she really can't sort out sounds and has problems with phonemic awareness despite thorough teaching and practice, I'd pursue that more carefully.

[siloam]

I would start keeping track of the words she does mis-spell and have her work on those. I think there are two issues happening here. One is to a point she doesn't care and two is that even when she does care she probably doesn't have good visual memory of the words, nor is she the best at hearing the individual sounds (from the samples you gave), so she is making errors.

 

I am dyslexic and a horrible speller, and I struggle with the same things. Most of the time I am so busy writing that I don't even think about spelling. In order to spell well I really have to STOP everything and think about it. It doesn't come naturally, yes even knowing the rules, though knowing the rules has helped. Most of the time what happens these days is I get tired of having to correct the same word over and over again with spell check and I finally tune in long enough to figure out how I am misspelling it. Even after that I have times when I totally flip which is the right way and which is my old wrong way and still spell it wrong. I am getting better.

 

Heather (Who once again spelled happens, happends and had to correct it again.)

[Nakia]

I really appreciate all of the responses. I have a lot to think about this week, and I will certainly implement some of the suggestions. Thanks again!!

[Ottakee]

Just another plug for Apples and Pears spelling. It is a tad expensive but it works and the spelling STICKS.

[shalom22]

Samantha- so how does IEW say to teach spelling, then? I was intrigued by your post, but can't really go from that to how then to teach our kids spelling! I, too, have great readers but poor spellers!

 

 

Ok, I just listened to the IEW DVD seminar. The following is a little long, it is almost a transcript but not completely verbatim, of what was said about spelling.

 

"Spelling is the correct retrieval of sequentially stored, virtually random bits of information. The key word is sequential.

 

Spelling is a sequential activity. If you don't get the letters in the right order, you get it wrong. You often see children writing words like: 'baer'. All the infomation if there, but in the wrong sequence.

 

Textbooks put strong emphasis on visual information. They want to teach spelling visually. Unfortunately, visual information is not sequential in nature.

 

If I write a word and ask you to look at this word: 'special', you are forced by nature to see all these letters simultaniously. There is no sequential storage. There is spatial storage, but not a sequential one. Consequently, if all of those letters are going into your brain at the same time through your eyes and you have even a mild dyslexia or other, it may not be going in the correct spatial relationship. And it doesn't come out in spatial relationship.

 

When you write a word, you write it one letter at a time. It comes out sequential. However, if I say a word, and spell it out loud - e-f-f-e-c-t-i-v-e, I am forced and you are forced by nature to hear those letters one at a time in sequence, because I can't say them all at once. See the difference?

 

This is why, I believe, for many children not having success in spelling now, there needs to be an emphasis on auditory input which is sequential and less emphasis on visual input. This is the more traditional way to do spelling. Think about spelling bees, there is no paper involved. And you practice for them using auditorial and verbal information. It is sequential and stores the information in the right pattern..."

 

The speaker goes on to mention that IEW has a spelling program that is auditory and not visual.

 

Hope this is clear and helpful.

[tvaleri]

Just saw this thread and wanted to chime in. Out of my five kids, two are not so good spellers. They also do not like reading. I've found that kids who are love to read are naturally great spellers. That said, there is help for those who struggle. Phonetic Zoo which is affiliated with The Institute for Excellence in Writing is a great program. Mr. Pudewa states "Spelling is the random retrieval of sequentially stored information. If the information isn't stored in correct order, it cannot be retrieved in correct order." You can check out http://www.writing-edu.com for more of his wisdom on spelling. Also, check out PZ. Great company which offers a 100% money back guarantee on all products, regardless of how long you used them!

 

Incidentally, I've tried Spelling Power, Rod & Staff, Abeka, Sequential Spelling, with no success. Not that these are inadequate programs, they simply didn't work for my kiddos who struggled with spelling.

 

In Christ alone,

Teresa

[HollyBee]

I've found that kids who are love to read are naturally great spellers.

 

Not necessarily. My 11 yo dd is an exceptional reader, and loves to read, but couldn't spell her way out of a paper bag. She still sometimes spells "with" as "whith." She's finally getting better using a combination of AAS and Apples & Pears, but you can't assume good reading = good spelling.

 

This came as a shock to me, as I am a good reader and a naturally good speller. She obviously inherited her father's electrical engineering spelling. :tongue_smilie:

 

Holly

[LadyAberlin]

Not necessarily. My 11 yo dd is an exceptional reader, and loves to read, but couldn't spell her way out of a paper bag. She still sometimes spells "with" as "whith." She's finally getting better using a combination of AAS and Apples & Pears, but you can't assume good reading = good spelling.

 

This came as a shock to me, as I am a good reader and a naturally good speller. She obviously inherited her father's electrical engineering spelling. :tongue_smilie:

 

Holly

 

 

My sister who is 22 and always reading is a horrible speller. She is always reading classics and have a great vocabulary, but she can't spell. She writes really well too. Her papers for college were always amazing. Our dad is an Electrical engineer to and horrible speller LOL.