Nestof3 Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I have read the hardback book, and I cannot even do the dictation on page 168. How on earth am I supposed to expect a ten-year-old son to do it? It is just too much information to hold in my head! I am perfectly capable of writing great sentences of that length, but it's a different matter trying to hold someone else's sentences in my head. I am an English major, by the way, who focused on Renaissance literature in college. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragons in the flower bed Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I have read the hardback book, and I cannot even do the dictation on page 168. How on earth am I supposed to expect a ten-year-old son to do it? It is just too much information to hold in my head! I am perfectly capable of writing great sentences of that length, but it's a different matter trying to hold someone else's sentences in my head. I can do it. I wouldn't be the same person without it. It's what gets me writing, and I've defined myself as a writer at times. I think of a sentence or four, or hear some, and I just need to get them down in the way I thought of them. When I was a kid I used to hold sentences in my head for hours sometimes before I could get home to my typewriter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom-ninja. Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I think this was discussed before. The goal is to be able to hold 30 or more words in your head. I think it was 30+ words. I think one mom here said she tried different sentences that she made up, and her ds had better success. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nestof3 Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 I can do it. I wouldn't be the same person without it. It's what gets me writing, and I've defined myself as a writer at times. I think of a sentence or four, or hear some, and I just need to get them down in the way I thought of them. When I was a kid I used to hold sentences in my head for hours sometimes before I could get home to my typewriter. I am not doubting that some people can, but if I cannot (and have written great papers), then is it really necessary for good writing? Again, I think there is a difference when the sentences come from within a person rather than from without. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nestof3 Posted September 2, 2009 Author Share Posted September 2, 2009 I think this was discussed before. The goal is to be able to hold 30 or more words in your head. I think it was 30+ words. I think one mom here said she tried different sentences that she made up, and her ds had better success. Hmmm. I see. I think Susan and I will just have to disagree on this one. I do not think that is required in order to be able to flow with writing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truebluexf Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 That does sound like an awful lot to memorize on the cuff! I think the exercise of practicing and trying is probably a good mental workout, but I also wouldn't sweat it if my children couldn't do it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aletheia Academy Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I don't think it is *necessary* to be able to dictate to write a good paper. I was one who received never received less than a B on a college paper of any length, and I taught high school English for a number of years and worked with lots of kids who wrote good papers but did not possess dictation skills. However, I do think practicing dictation skills and progressing with the amount that you can write from dictation *is* a good way to train and exercise one's brain, much like other memorization tasks/skills such as memorizing poetry or pieces of music to play from memory. It is not necessary to memorize pieces of music to play from memory to be a good piano player, but it is impressive when we see someone do it. Like any other endeavor, some folks have more inherent ability to write from dictation, perhaps, but almost anyone can train themselves incrementally to become proficient at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali in OR Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I'm with you Dawn. I'm not really believing that mastering dictation is necessary to become a great writer (don't think I could do it). I can see that if you CAN do it, you can probably learn to write well also, but I think it's possible to write well without holding exact wording in your head before you write. I like to have an organizational model (outline), know where I'm going, what points I will make, etc. I do believe in the power of a well-crafted sentence. I just don't think I have to have the whole thing in my head before putting pen to paper (or fingers to keyboard). I wrote good papers in college without using this method. I think that outlining will be a far more important skill. So I'm using WWE 1 with my youngest and can see the benefit at that age. I've looked at the WWE 3 sample and done the first week with my 4th grade dd (and she did fine with the dictation, which I think is shorter than what you're talking about). But I'm thinking that for 3rd and 4th grade, WWE might not be the way I want to go. I think I would like to study other writing skills and not focus so much on dictation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haiku Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I am sure that people can be great writers without practicing dictation. I never did and I am a published writer. But I still think that dictation is a valuable mental exercise. If you or your son can't do that dictation, no sweat. Try a slightly easier or a slightly different one. Tara Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mom4him Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 Hmmm. I see. I think Susan and I will just have to disagree on this one. I do not think that is required in order to be able to flow with writing. I think I would relax with it. I doubt that all great writers went through WWE 4 or necessarily this process to become a good writer. ;) I am using WWE1 this year with my soon to be 9 and 10 yr olds. I doubt that we ever even got to book 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
angela&4boys Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 I think I would relax with it. I doubt that all great writers went through WWE 4 or necessarily this process to become a good writer. ;)I am using WWE1 this year with my soon to be 9 and 10 yr olds. I doubt that we ever even got to book 4. :iagree: Our 9yo ds is starting WWE 2. Like mom4him, I'm not worried if we don't make it to 4. I am more focused on the narrations. Being able to put his summary from head to paper is my main goal. Dictation is a bonus. :) And btw, I couldn't do the final dictation for 4 either. :001_huh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janice in NJ Posted September 2, 2009 Share Posted September 2, 2009 (edited) Is it possible that she is trying to get kids to hold a lot of ideas in their heads at once - not words - but ideas? Thoughts, connections, images. A good writer has to hang onto a pile of propositions while he juggles, sorts, links, and subordinates them in order to arrange them in a whiz-bang way. I've done this with my high schoolers and it's a challenge. We keep forgetting things. We end up with mental bits dangling everywhere. Where was I going to put that... and darn! What was that word? As a momma who is facing a personal next step which is teaching my high schoolers to take notes from a live lecture, I'm wondering if longer dictation might be a splendid idea at age 10. (Note taking from a live lecture - as in outlining a progression of propositions when you just realized that the lecturer has just said, "The second thing was...." and you realize that you didn't notice that there was a first thing, and now he seems to be talking faster so you're writing - scribbling actually - but WHILE you are writing, you are frantically trying to remember what the first thing was... Was there even a first thing? What did he just say? Dang. Missed it. Where are we???!!!???? Unnerving.) Can I just say that I'm reading this post and wondering if all of this might be easier now if I had required longer dictationalizationamation when they were littler little people without all of their prickly teenager crankiness. :001_smile: I can hear the groans now... "How are we supposed to remember all of this? This is crazy, mom." Catch the subtle implication that Mom is crazy? Can I just say that I'm not looking forward to sliding in the DVD and handing out the sheets of paper. Friendly but with a healthy dash of cold, stern "Hmmmm..... let's try it anyway, shall we?" :glare: ;) Isn't life grand? If it were me, I would work toward it if I were you. Believe it or not, they get more ornery and set-in-their-ways (not less) as they get older. Old dogs and tricks and all that. Course I'm not the one who has to do it. Wanna trade? :001_smile: Peace, Janice Enjoy your little people Enjoy your journey Edited September 2, 2009 by Janice in NJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom-ninja. Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 dictationalizationamation This has got to be one of the best word ever! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jibaker103 Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 Is it possible that she is trying to get kids to hold a lot of ideas in their heads at once - not words - but ideas? Thoughts, connections, images. A good writer has to hang onto a pile of propositions while he juggles, sorts, links, and subordinates them in order to arrange them in a whiz-bang way. I've done this with my high schoolers and it's a challenge. We keep forgetting things. We end up with mental bits dangling everywhere. Where was I going to put that... and darn! What was that word? As a momma who is facing a personal next step which is teaching my high schoolers to take notes from a live lecture, I'm wondering if longer dictation might be a splendid idea at age 10. (Note taking from a live lecture - as in outlining a progression of propositions when you just realized that the lecturer has just said, "The second thing was...." and you realize that you didn't notice that there was a first thing, and now he seems to be talking faster so you're writing - scribbling actually - but WHILE you are writing, you are frantically trying to remember what the first thing was... Was there even a first thing? What did he just say? Dang. Missed it. Where are we???!!!???? Unnerving.) Can I just say that I'm reading this post and wondering if all of this might be easier now if I had required longer dictationalizationamation when they were littler little people without all of their prickly teenager crankiness. :001_smile: I can hear the groans now... "How are we supposed to remember all of this? This is crazy, mom." Catch the subtle implication that Mom is crazy? Can I just say that I'm not looking forward to sliding in the DVD and handing out the sheets of paper. Friendly but with a healthy dash of cold, stern "Hmmmm..... let's try it anyway, shall we?" :glare: ;) Isn't life grand? If it were me, I would work toward it if I were you. Believe it or not, they get more ornery and set-in-their-ways (not less) as they get older. Old dogs and tricks and all that. Course I'm not the one who has to do it. Wanna trade? :001_smile: Peace, Janice Enjoy your little people Enjoy your journey :iagree: wholeheartedly especially since I'm starting to deal with a cranky, ornery 8th grader needing to learn notetaking & outlining!!! :lol: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linders Posted September 3, 2009 Share Posted September 3, 2009 We are in WWE2 and when DS asked me to reread the dictation sentence (yes, one sentence) I had to look at it again. Obviously, he will be better-educated than I. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmsmama Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 I thought the Level 4 stuff was really tough too, but at least dd has a while before we cross that bridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kls126s Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Obviously, he will be better-educated than I. And isn't that what we are all working toward? :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penelope Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 I don't know, I never practiced dictations that long in school. I don't think it is necessary for good writing, either. As far as taking good notes, I think that comes from lots and lots of practice taking notes. In middle school, the teacher can go more slowly for practice. I still remember my 7th grade history teacher forcing us to outline chapter after chapter, and take notes from her lectures (that she would check). College efficiency in note-taking comes from a good abbreviation system and ability to organize/outline IME. ;) This is something I will have to plan for if we hs through middle and high school. I don't see myself lecturing at the dining table while my kids take notes, lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lionfamily1999 Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 I can see the benefit of bulking up short term memory. Dh can remember lists of things for a short period of time, that really helps him in his job. Ds can out memorize me any day. My goal is to have him better off than I am. At third grade, as far as memory goes, that has been achieved ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orthodox6 Posted September 4, 2009 Share Posted September 4, 2009 Not necessary AT ALL to develop strong -- even superior -- writing skills. This is a good example of where I apply common sense, rather than blindly follow an educator's recommendations and attribute my frustration to some failure or flaw within myself. What works, what fits, what succeeds* . . . that is what is "necessary" for an individual student. [* sincere, diligent effort is assumed] I am not doubting that some people can, but if I cannot (and have written great papers), then is it really necessary for good writing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mom0012 Posted September 5, 2009 Share Posted September 5, 2009 I can't write those sentences from dictation either! If I can't do it, I know my son is never going to be able to. Lisa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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