Christianity vs. Churchianity

[dorothy]

I have been attending a church that I love for the following reasons:

kind, loving people, super-helpful staff, thoughtful pastors, excellent sermons, and a commitment to helping globally.

 

But, I do not like: contemporary services, constant call for volunteers, the "produced" (albeit really well produced) feeling of the worship, the "edutainment" in Sunday school, and now, the drive to raise $$$ to build a mega-building for a mega-church.

 

I totally do not agree with building a bigger church. Yes, we have to have three services every Suanday to fit everyone, but we also have to have 100 small groups so that people feel connected. I think it makes more sense to plant smaller churches around our region and abroad and encourage mature attenders to attend the new churches and reach new people. Or, stay put and use the money to help missions around the world.

 

Anyway, the cons are starting to outweigh the pros because this building project has become the FOCUS of the church. I just do not think that that was what Christ intended - he said "GO OUT" not "MAKE BUILDINGS TO WAREHOUSE CHRISTIANS."

 

I feel bad because I like the people at church and they have been so sweet with my kids (my kids like it there - that is why I have stayed), but I just feel so uncomfortable with the money-raising, volunteer-pressuring, and I miss singing Good ole Hymns!

 

Anyone have any advice?

[PariSarah]

One suggestion only: learning to "hear" the constant call for volunteers differently. I know that many churches fall victim to look-busyitis. ("Hey, the Boss might be coming back--look busy!") And many churches substitute doing church for being the Body of Christ.

 

But part of that has to do with a very solid reading of Paul. His words on giftedness can be life-giving. The Spirit gives each of us the gifts to participate in God's Kingdom--we have things that God has qualified and called us uniquely to do. Following Christ isn't just about feeling religious--it's about being and doing what Christ was and did. In mediocre churches, this devolves into a constant clamor to create programs and fill spots. But when it's working right, when people are attentive and open to the working of the Spirit, it means that each and every member will know herself to be a vital part of Christ's ministry to the world.

[Harriet Vane]

Like Parisarah I appreciate how well you have said this. Thank you for putting this trend so succinctly. I *love* your post title.:)

 

One thing I will differ on, slightly, though, is the volunteer drive. As one who has organized many children's programs over many years (and fought to SIMPLIFY them so that we could regain focus on Christ) I can tell you that there is a startling lack of volunteers in the church as a whole. Unfortunately many, many, many people attend church without contributing in some way. This results in very overworked, overstressed volunteers. While I do recognize that not everyone can volunteer all the time (I cut my own volunteer commitments significantly 18 months ago due to family crises), it is obvious to me that many people could help a little more than they do.

 

Personally, I think if volunteers are not forthcoming programs should be cut, but I have not been able to find a church that will take a step that drastic. It does result, often, in a percentage of the body taking the services the church offers without being responsible to contribute in any way.

 

Thanks again for sharing.

[Daisy]

Amen! Amen! and Amen!

[Adrianne]

We recently had our change in adult Sunday school classes and I really did not know where to go. I feel like sometimes adult Sunday school (and sometimes kids too) is preaching to the choir, if you pardon my pun.

 

Aren't most people there because they already believe? Of course not all, and some do need to learn sound doctrine as new Christians. It just seems sometimes we as Christians are obsessed with being better Christians (warehouse christianity) and not so worried about spreading, living, and feeling God's word.

 

At our last church the pastor's wife criticized me for the way I spent my time with God. Like there is only one way???

 

I do think worship is important but can't worship be done through our acts sometimes and not making sure we "show up" every week and bring our bibles? Are we better Christians because we take notes during the sermon?

 

Anyway, churches have always turned me off because sometimes they are more about social cliques than God. My great grandpa used to say " sometimes the best Christians are not found in church." (he was old German Luthren)

 

I do have to say however, that our church started making one service contemporary and the other, later service traditional. I like this as I too missed the old hymns. Some weeks I think I go just to sing.......

[Janna]

When I read the title of your post I was immediately struck. It's a perfect title. "churchianity" - I love it and am gonna remember it and use it.

 

That said, I think we must be attending the same church. Seriously, every single one of the things you mentioned - pros and cons - are identical to what's happening to my church (except we had the "$$$ drive" last year and the building has begun).

 

I can't help you out. Honestly I can't. Dh and I have stepped up to volunteering in many things (S.S. was one of them and for your exact reason - "edutainment". We wanted to volunteer and have a say in what happens there) and are beginning to feel burned out (well, I am, but mainly because I'm also pg and due soon and that's on my mind).

 

I will say that the call for volunteers doesn't bother me because it's what is needed and quite frankly, I would be more upset if they had paid staff to do everything rather than volunteers. I think in order to be "the body of Christ", we have to all do our part - which is more than just sitting and listening to a good sermon. The truth is, and it's funny because I was just having a conversation about this on the phone this afternoon, that people just aren't stepping up to serve anymore. Everything is so me-me-me focused and everything is so "this is my season of life so give me some grace because I'm not gonna help" and accepted, that there aren't enough people stepping up to serve. Don't misunderstand. I completely understand the "season of life" thing, and I'm gonna be in that here very, very shortly. For a small time I'm gonna have to step aside and say, "look, I just had a baby, I need to concentrate on being a devoted mother and I need to concentrate on not burning myself out to the point I am going crazy with motherhood and hormones dropping too. But I will be back. Just give me a couple of months." But I do think that some of this is just part of the "suffering with Christ" and the persevering that we're called to do. It is not His intention that everyone become so "me-centered" that they can't see beyond themselves to help out. So I really don't have a problem with the volunteer pressuring.

 

But everything else you said, I with you. It saddens me. It really, really does.

[SparrowsNest]

I don't even remember where I heard this, but a while back someone said/I read/in a sermon/wherever that the purpose of the worship service wasn't to cater or to pander to *our* preferences, but rather to gather the body of Christ together to glorify God. So the question isn't "Did I like the service today?" but rather "Was God glorified?" Asking that question when I have felt like grumbling about preferences/little things/the way our worship leader strums his guitar while he's talking ;)/etc., has helped me to realign my spirit with the Big Picture.

 

So for me, if my church is theologically sound and I believe that Christ is being glorified, I tend to think the rest is non-essential. I don't always like our music choices. I don't always like the way our preacher uses 'edgy' terms to be 'relevant.' I wish we could kneel. But, at the end of the day, the issue for me would boil down to what is at the core of your church. If it is a heart seeking to glorify God, preach the Gospel, feed believers, and take God's love into a dying world, then I could personally overlook music I didn't care for and a church-building drive. But what I think I am hearing from you is that that heart for God's glory may not be there, and that you are concerned that "church for church's sake" may be driving these activities. In that case, we would probably talk with the leadership first and, if you are not satisfied, we would probably look for a place of worship where Christ, and not the church, was at the center.

[Old Dominion Heather]

Personally, I think if volunteers are not forthcoming programs should be cut, but I have not been able to find a church that will take a step that drastic.

 

 

Can I come to your church? :)

[dorothy]

I actually volunteer at the church and understand the need for people to step up. I think the issue for me is that they have created a zillion programs to "attract" seekers and "edutain" the children so that the parents will want to come to church. They use many, many resources to do this and need many, many people to execute it. The bigger church will require this in a bigger way.

 

I do not agree with the concept that we have to attract people to church. I think that we are to live lives and love others in a way that they see Christ in us. We can invite people to church but if they are only attending because the kids like the arts and crafts, really!

 

So, I think that if programs were simplified, the basics taught again (Bible, simple songs for kids) and the videos, graphics, altar decorations, tech stuff, etc., were cut-out/simplified, we would have enough volunteers.

[Janna]

And you know what else? There was a time when it was the grandmotherly people of the church who were the children's S.S. teachers. The S.S. classes were so well behaved and kept in check and there was respect there for the "elder" from the kids.

 

Now it's the young, hip parents they want to teach the kids, and a lot of those parents don't even have control over their own kids, let alone a class of 17 other people's kids, kwim?

 

Dh and I have really struggled with being S.S. teachers because how we teach our children at home (classically, or neo-classically, really. And even that is as best as we can) is so radically different than how they want these kids taught. And the way we teach our kids about spiritual matters is also so radically different. So I completely understand your "edutainment" wording. But we're there for a reason. We're there to serve, and when the times are appropriate and we feel led, we do speak up. We have made sure that we're part of the small core of people helping to get the curriculum together. But we're constantly butting heads it seems, though we're not in a place that we have fought with another or anything like that. It's just...hard.

 

But when I think about the argument of how things were in "my day", I think that my parents probably said the same thing. I'm sure that things were going on in my church growing up that "never would have happened" when my parents were growing up and so forth. Going back to the past isn't always the answer. But gosh, finding the right answer for today takes a lot of spiritual discernment which can only be met with constant prayer and petition, kwim? It's hard.

[karne]

I see in a couple different ways.

 

Our church just built a larger sanctuary. I'm impressed that they did not go into debt to build it. The pastor was doing 5 services every Sunday. 2 at once. One service would sing first, the other service would have the sermon first and then switch. I was also impressed that the sanctuary they built was very basic. No grandiose ideas, no tapestries and stained glass. Just a larger building with more seats.

 

I understand the need for volunteers, but I think people are volunteered out. They are realizing they are over committed and either cutting back or quiting to spend that time with their family. And I think that's where they should be.

 

Parents can run themselves ragged getting kids to all their church activities and then getting themselves to their own Bible study or home group. It's exhausting.

 

Having said 'our church' in the beginning of my post, we rarely go to church. For many reasons which I won't go into here.

 

I think we ought to spend more time with our kids and husbands/wives. That's what's going to make the difference, not the number of or the quality of the church activities we participated in.

 

just one woman's opinion....

[lynn]

One suggestion only: learning to "hear" the constant call for volunteers differently. I know that many churches fall victim to look-busyitis. ("Hey, the Boss might be coming back--look busy!") And many churches substitute doing church for being the Body of Christ.

 

But part of that has to do with a very solid reading of Paul. His words on giftedness can be life-giving. The Spirit gives each of us the gifts to participate in God's Kingdom--we have things that God has qualified and called us uniquely to do. Following Christ isn't just about feeling religious--it's about being and doing what Christ was and did. In mediocre churches, this devolves into a constant clamor to create programs and fill spots. But when it's working right, when people are attentive and open to the working of the Spirit, it means that each and every member will know herself to be a vital part of Christ's ministry to the world.

 

I've been in churches where people "clamor" to get the "glory" and others get snubbed for not being the "chosen" ones. That is what has turned me off at most churches. I am so tired of the "faith giving" for bigger and better things to Glorify God and ignoring the immediate needs right around them. So few churches follow the principles laid forth by Paul at what the church should do. It's sad to see the state of most churches today for many have become no more that a social club for the "look what I am doing people" We are trying hard to find a church that meets the needs of our family but are so turned off by why so many churches have become and I live in the Bible belt. We find it hardest to find a church home here than anywhere else we have lived. We keep are not giving up we really do give an honest effort to seek a church that meets the needs of my family.

[Danestress]

I go to a church that has grown in exactly the way you see to prefer. It was planted with five people, grew, split, grew split, grew. We now have about 100. And you know what bugs me? The music, Edutainment and being asked to volunteer for everything under the sun, lol. So I guess it's going around. We still don't have a building, and I don't project one in the near future. We meet at a YMCA gym, and just setting up and breaking down church every week really requires a lot of faithful volunteers.

 

I actually love my church, adore the people, and can't imagine leaving it because of the things that sort of bug me at times. Something would probably bug me anywhere I went.

 

And my irritations are not things I would take to church leadership because I recognize they are trivial compared to the things we do right.

 

But in your case, I think I would at least bring up your issues with church leadership and see how they respond, because how leadership responds to differing opinions is probably one of the MOST important things about leadership, to me. So it would be a good test case:)

 

I don't think it is "right" or "wrong" in God's eyes to build a bigger church. I suspect maybe different churches are called to different things. Honestly, it's SO hard sometimes to have your friends split off and plant a new church. But in any case, I would want to talk with leadership and the pastoral staff about what the church's vision and mission are and how this building fits into that.

[Jackie in AR]

And you know what else? There was a time when it was the grandmotherly people of the church who were the children's S.S. teachers. The S.S. classes were so well behaved and kept in check and there was respect there for the "elder" from the kids.

 

Now it's the young, hip parents they want to teach the kids, and a lot of those parents don't even have control over their own kids, let alone a class of 17 other people's kids, kwim?

 

At our current church, there are people of every generation who teach the children's Sunday school classes. It is great!

 

Unfortunately, the church we were a part of in Texas had an older generation who didn't help at all with any of the children's ministries. They had "done their time" when their children were growing up, and told us that in no uncertain terms. In those exact words, actually.

 

So, it is not always the younger generation who doesn't want the involvement of the older folks; sometimes the older ones aren't interested in serving any longer.

[mcconnellboys]

No, but please help me find a church just like the one you want, as I want that, too.....

 

Regena

[Mama Anna]

Honestly, it's SO hard sometimes to have your friends split off and plant a new church. But in any case, I would want to talk with leadership and the pastoral staff about what the church's vision and mission are and how this building fits into that.

 

Hey, I think Danestress has a good point. Would you and your family/friends be willing to break off and be the seeds of a new plant across town? Maybe what is needed is someone to be willing to take the big leap. If, of course, it's what God wants of you . . .

 

Mama Anna

[Mx5]

Anyone have any advice?

 

It's hard to know what's in the mind of church leadership until you're in it. I'm assuming your dh is not on the elder board or on staff as a pastor or counselor, right? It is hard to know how leadership makes their decisions when you're not in on what they know. There may be extenuating circumstances warranting the building of a bigger sanctuary - like maybe your preaching pastor is burning out doing 3 services each Sunday? Or perhaps your church doesn't have enough mature believers (preferably elders) to lead church plants? Then again, church planting is very difficult, and from what I understand a good percentage of people who go to the plant end up back at the mother church within a year. Not many pastors / elders and their families want to take that on.

 

We (dh & I) have been on both sides of this. He served in a very large church for many years. He's now pastoring a much smaller church. We still need volunteers and still ask for them. We still push small groups, just as we did in the large church.

 

I think that there are just some things in the American brand of Christianity that lends itself to having some inherent problems with things like whether to split and plant churches, or expand the existing facilities. It is a complex issue. My guess is that the leadership in your church has had some professionals come in and advise them what to do... church growth consultants, perhaps? Our former church did this. We began offering all things to all people - life cycle small groups, affinity groups, children's church, women's ministry, outdoors ministry, car ministry, singles ministry... on and on it went. The church got huge - the idea was to reach the lost, but what happened is that the saved came. This isn't bad. We are to make disciples, right? And discipleship takes teaching. But even though the church is big, they have a very difficult time even staffing nursery for the women's ministry meetings. The empty-nesters feel that they have done their time with kids, and don't have a vision to reach the young moms. The young moms resent being given tips on marriage and home life and spiritual life.

 

Like I said, it's complex.

 

Advice? Pray much for the leadership of your church. You said they were helpful. Many sweet loving people... this sounds like a wonderful church. If you want to know the rationale behind the building project, talk to someone who would know, like an executive pastor or someone on your elder board. Things may not be as they seem to you. None of it is easy. If the teaching is biblically correct, and your children are thriving, then I would be hesitant to pull out of the church (not that you implied that).

[Storm Bay]

I feel that in cases like this, it's better to split and have 3 churches instead of one. Others will rise up to lead. If everyone just wants the same minister/preacher, then who are they following? Or they could take turns. If people are giving financially (because they want to, not because it's forced--I'm not into fundraisers for churches at all) then there ought to be enough to support at least 2 preachers, I would think.

 

As for the services, if they're being done this way just to get people, I don't like it. But I would look to see who is being glorified here, because God calls different people in the Body to meet different needs, and if He's calling someone to do this it will be evident. Do you have your needs met here? (as far as being with other Christians, what you're learning, is it helping you grow). Do people do their best to walk the walk? No one is perfect, of course, so I don't mean perfect, and if new people are coming it's not fair to expect them to be trying to do it all until they are ready to make a commitment.

 

All those things said, there are times when it can be a blessing to have hundreds of people together, but I certainly wouldn't want that to be my regular meeting size.

[Mamagistra]

I see in a couple different ways.

 

Our church just built a larger sanctuary. I'm impressed that they did not go into debt to build it. The pastor was doing 5 services every Sunday. 2 at once. One service would sing first, the other service would have the sermon first and then switch. I was also impressed that the sanctuary they built was very basic. No grandiose ideas, no tapestries and stained glass. Just a larger building with more seats.

 

I understand the need for volunteers, but I think people are volunteered out. They are realizing they are over committed and either cutting back or quiting to spend that time with their family. And I think that's where they should be.

 

Parents can run themselves ragged getting kids to all their church activities and then getting themselves to their own Bible study or home group. It's exhausting.

 

Having said 'our church' in the beginning of my post, we rarely go to church. For many reasons which I won't go into here.

 

I think we ought to spend more time with our kids and husbands/wives. That's what's going to make the difference, not the number of or the quality of the church activities we participated in.

 

just one woman's opinion....

 

I agree with much of what you say here. We stepped back from our beloved church a while ago because we simply felt like we needed a break from all the changes that were happening: building plans, new and "improved" children's programs, contemporary music, and more. We're still unsure whether to stay or move on. :confused:

[Hillary in KS]

Personally, I think if volunteers are not forthcoming programs should be cut, but I have not been able to find a church that will take a step that drastic. It does result, often, in a percentage of the body taking the services the church offers without being responsible to contribute in any way.

QUOTE]

 

Strider, when we lived in Wisconsin we attended a rather large (for that area) church. There were two services, and Sunday School for children during each service.

 

If there were not enough volunteers to teach a children's class, that class was closed. Period. Before the start of every new Sunday School year, the SS Director would announce, "The following classes will be closed unless more adults volunteer to help." 9 times out of 10 volunteers would come forward. Sometimes a class would close, and then open a couple of weeks later when there were volunteers.

 

I really appreciated and respected that step they took!

[lynn]

At our current church, there are people of every generation who teach the children's Sunday school classes. It is great!

 

Unfortunately, the church we were a part of in Texas had an older generation who didn't help at all with any of the children's ministries. They had "done their time" when their children were growing up, and told us that in no uncertain terms. In those exact words, actually.

 

So, it is not always the younger generation who doesn't want the involvement of the older folks; sometimes the older ones aren't interested in serving any longer.

 

I totally agree with them. My son's 2yr ss teacher had not been in an adult ss class in 30years. She more than served her time. I feel if every parent would volunteer where their children are the older generation would be more than happy to sub once in a while when those volunteers need a Sunday off.

[SparrowsNest]

I totally agree with them. My son's 2yr ss teacher had not been in an adult ss class in 30years. She more than served her time. I feel if every parent would volunteer where their children are the older generation would be more than happy to sub once in a while when those volunteers need a Sunday off.

 

 

This isn't the kind of person Jackie has in mind.

 

In fact, I am wondering if Jackie went to my old church in Texas. We asked some of the older ladies if they would come read to the babies in the nursery. Once a year. For 15 minutes. To the last one, the answer was "No. I've raised my children. Church is MY time. They're YOUR babies. YOU read to them."

 

Thankfully we have found a truly covenantal church where all the members understand that we are to point one another to Christ all our lives, young and old, and that church and, indeed, all our lives are not "our" time, but rather "God's time."

[karne]

You could get my mom to go to your church :) She is always volunteering in the nursery, cause she loves the babies. And this woman has 13 grandchildren (all grown up) and 11 great grandchildren. You'd think she had enough babies in the immediate family. Nope, she volunteers in the nursery.

[*anj*]

 

I feel bad because I like the people at church and they have been so sweet with my kids (my kids like it there - that is why I have stayed), but I just feel so uncomfortable with the money-raising, volunteer-pressuring, and I miss singing Good ole Hymns!

 

Anyone have any advice?

 

I totally empathize with you on the "edutainment" and the need to make it a mega church. My former church used materials for children's education that really bugged me. I was put in charge of choosing a new curriculum and I picked something that I thought was excellent. People used it, but there were many complaints that it was too serious, not "fun" enough. I wouldn't be surprised if they end up switching to something else now that I'm gone. The same thing happened with children's church, although I was voted down on that one. (Note: my leaving has nothing to do with that, it's a totally different issue, and I was very sad to leave.)

 

That church has also been in the process of building an enormous addition. The existing church will be dwarfed by the newer building. The church took out a huge mortgage for this addition, plus the people have been asked to give very sacrificially. And the present building is not bursting at the seams. People are beginning to worry that the remnant left behind will have to foot this enormous bill. The church where we worship now is located in a warehouse. It doesn't look beautiful on the outside. You have to read the sign to know that there's a church inside. But they did a wonderful job remodeling the inside and it is very attractive, no warehouse feel at all when you're inside. Plus: it's all paid for.

 

Having said all that, if you are able to truly worship at that church and the teaching is sound, I'd encourage you to stick it out. Donate time and money to the best of your ability, and that's it. If they don't have enough money or volunteers to do certain projects, they'll eventually have to face the reality of that situation.

Oh, and regarding the music: is there any chance they'd add a hymn or two to the mix? Maybe there are others like you who would just really appreciate a couple of hymns amidst the worship choruses. Our church has mostly contemporary music, but we usually sing at least one hymn although they get uptempoed. It's a nice compromise for this hymn-lover.

[Jill- OK]

...but we *have* decided to move on. :-(

 

(There's more than just the changes going on, but those play a part, too)

 

It's hard to find 'simple' churches, these days, I'm finding.

[***Tish***]

Has anyone read the book Simple Church? Right before we moved here , our Children's pastor asked me to read it. All the staff are reading it now at our old church. It really is a great concept and I wish more churches would adopt the principles in it. Clarify the aims of the church and then you run one program to reach each aim. Now those programs can be age- differentiated, but there is one overall goal of the program. I don't know if I am adequately explaining it. Anyway, I think that would take away so much of the busy-ness for the sake of busy-ness that leads to volunteer burn-out.

 

We've been here in UT (having moved from GA) for 5 months. We've been seeking a church and I'll just say flat out that it is HARD! I've been learning the lesson, though, that wherever we visit - whether the worship style is one I like or don't - that I have to be there to worship God. It's a problem if I can't find my way to focus on God and not on myself and how I don't like this or that about the church we are at on a particular week.

 

I don't know that we're going to find a place that totally fits us and our personal preferences. There aren't quite as many options here for us as there were in the Bible Belt. I do know that if we can find a place that is doctrinally sound and that glorifies God in all they do, that He will be pleased with me making adjustments and serving and worshiping Him in the place where I am.

[Call Me Cordelia]

I haven't read all the responses, but here's my take.

 

Perhaps the church is following God, but it's not your vision. Perhaps you have the correct vision but the church is not following God and needs prayer. Perhaps you're both wrong.

 

We have been at the same church for over 14 years. It is currently a very different place than when we joined. Why? I believe because God has called the church to change. Some of the changes have been pleasant for me. Sometimes I have changed in a different way than the church.

 

When we joined there were many externals I liked: SS was optional for kids and many chose to stay with parents, no kids church, no youth group, no women's programs, not a lot of programs, husbands expected/encouraged/equipped to lead in the church and their families, most ladies wore dresses 24/7, everyone homeschools, etc... *Some* of these externals have changed, but the heart for God has not. Yet I have seen so many people leave the church because we are too strict. Then another set leave because we are too worldly. Then another group leaves because they are not being fed. I am (can't get the right word - saddened, shocked, dismayed) at how many leave in bitterness with a critical spirit, not called *to* something, but judgmental of others not on the same page as them.

 

Whenever I feel critical and/or feel like leaving I come down to a couple factors. First, it seems God has placed us there and not given direction to leave. Second, my kids are truly fed and challenged. Then I ask myself what about the church is *hindering* my relationship with God? I have yet to find anything. Do I think the church should be doing more in area X? Sure. But is there anything hindering me from being involved in area X? Nope.

 

A teacher I truly love, Francis Frangipane, tells people who seek to join his church to return to their church and pray for it for 30 days.

 

There truly is no perfect church, just the church that God wants you to be a part of. We have such a privilege of worship in this country; I think we squander it in ways that grieve God's heart.

 

Disclaimer: These thoughts are not directed at the OP or anyone in particular; they are simply my general thoughts on church participation. :)

[Mx5]

 

Whenever I feel critical and/or feel like leaving I come down to a couple factors. First, it seems God has placed us there and not given direction to leave. Second, my kids are truly fed and challenged. Then I ask myself what about the church is *hindering* my relationship with God? I have yet to find anything. Do I think the church should be doing more in area X? Sure. But is there anything hindering me from being involved in area X? Nope.

 

A teacher I truly love, Francis Frangipane, tells people who seek to join his church to return to their church and pray for it for 30 days.

 

There truly is no perfect church, just the church that God wants you to be a part of. We have such a privilege of worship in this country; I think we squander it in ways that grieve God's heart.

 

Disclaimer: These thoughts are not directed at the OP or anyone in particular; they are simply my general thoughts on church participation. :)

 

I love your question about whether or not the church is hindering your relationship with God, or hindering you from doing more in an area that means something to you.

 

Wise words!

[Jill- OK]

...you weren't speaking to anyone in particular, but I did want to clarify that in my post, as I said, the changes in style and focus aren't the only reasons we're leaving.

 

In fifteen years of attending church as a family, we've only left someplace out of anything other than necessity (moving) twice. (Before now, that is.) Both times, church attendance had become something that was almost dreaded, things were so far removed from our perception of worship and service. And both times, my husband (who I defer to in matters like this) didn't make a decision until he felt sure. Both times...we felt an incredible relief after leaving, and found the 'right' place for our family, afterwards.

 

We've loved this church for years. But there's a fundamental shift occuring, and it's literally becoming a different church. I think we counted six families, besides ourselves, that are leaving at around the same time. (Several others left earlier.) The pastor was...well, not exactly fired, but not really given much choice but to leave. The music minister is gone. The children's minister is leaving. The interim music minister was told he was no longer needed (they were leaving, anyway). The youth pastor stepped down, and just announced that they're leaving after Easter. The piano player...well, I could go on and on, but I won't.

 

Sometimes churches do change. And sometimes people have legitimate reasons for leaving their place of worship. I agree with much of what you've said, and I especially believe that Christians should endeavor to bridge differences, and simply suck it up when there are trifles that irritate them.

 

But I do think that there are times when you can part ways, and go different directions, and it be the right thing for everyone.

 

Anyway, this isn't necessarily directed at you, but I didn't want to leave the wrong impression of the reasons why we're leaving our church. It's not something we ever do lightly, and I don't think we'd be able to, if we didn't have a sense of direction, and the feeling that we really should be somewhere else.

[Rebecca in GA]

Many folks object to megachurches, but I'm a big fan of corporate worship. I grew up in a small, stale, steepled-and-hymned Methodist church and when I had my own children, I joined a slightly less small, stale, steepled-and-hymned Baptist church. I sat in my seat and listened to some good sermons and some that didn't even have a Scriptural reference. Mostly, I listened to a whole lot of "this is what's wrong with the world -- aren't you glad we're better than that?"

 

DH and I never intend to go back to a church with a steeple. We have grown and learned so incredibly at our "megachurch," with its loud praise and worship time, its skits, its humble and on-fire leadership that we can't imagine being tied down to our previous experiences again.

 

Do what you need to do, what you're led to do and what's best for your walk. But please understand that this type of worship, this type of church has taken some Christians (ME!) further than they've ever thought possible and it's not always the style, the financial needs or the size that's the problem.

[Jackie in AR]

Great post, Rebecca.

 

Many folks object to megachurches, but I'm a big fan of corporate worship. I grew up in a small, stale, steepled-and-hymned Methodist church and when I had my own children, I joined a slightly less small, stale, steepled-and-hymned Baptist church. I sat in my seat and listened to some good sermons and some that didn't even have a Scriptural reference. Mostly, I listened to a whole lot of "this is what's wrong with the world -- aren't you glad we're better than that?"

 

Oh, don't you get so tired of hearing that? This has really been grating on my nerves lately as it seems I'm hearing it a lot. And mostly from the hymnal crowd. I just want to scream for them to get the log out of their own eye. And, yes, I realize I've got a pretty big one in my eye, too. :D

 

(And I want to be clear that I'm not talking specifically about my own church, but making a generality about several comments I've heard lately from different groups/places.)

 

DH and I never intend to go back to a church with a steeple. We have grown and learned so incredibly at our "megachurch' date='" with its loud praise and worship time, its skits, its humble and on-fire leadership that we can't imagine being tied down to our previous experiences again.

 

[b']Do what you need to do, what you're led to do and what's best for your walk.[/b]

 

Yes! And quit telling the rest of us that we're doing it wrong because we don't do it just the way you prefer.

 

But please understand that this type of worship' date=' this type of church has taken some Christians (ME!) further than they've ever thought possible and it's not always the style, the financial needs or the size that's the problem.[/quote']

 

It sounds as though you've found your niche, Rebecca, and feel free to worship in the way that is meaningful to you. That is truly a blessing.

[Danestress]

At our current church, there are people of every generation who teach the children's Sunday school classes. It is great!

 

Unfortunately, the church we were a part of in Texas had an older generation who didn't help at all with any of the children's ministries. They had "done their time" when their children were growing up, and told us that in no uncertain terms. In those exact words, actually.

 

 

 

Honestly, I don't want people to teach my children who don't have a desire to be there. This should be a calling - not a sheer service, in my opinion. If God doesn't give someone a heart for children, then they probably have other ministry gifts.

[3littlekeets]

As I read this thread I cannot help but think of Marshall McLuhan's famous phrase "The medium is the message." Just like the disagreements over powerpoint lecture notes versus Socratic method teaching in University classes, and computer-based reading versus traditional book learning, so much of the issue centers on the medium -- the transmission of the message -- rather than content itself. However, as McLuhan argues, it's not a bad thing; it just is.

 

Even in Churches, we see that the style and channel of delivery are as important as the message. In fact, as a Catholic, one of the things I both love and loathe is the full traditional mass. Nothing has changed, at our church, in the last 75 years, except for English masses instead of Latin ones, and the fact women no longer need to cover their heads.

 

Peace, Carol

[Jackie in AR]

Honestly, I don't want people to teach my children who don't have a desire to be there. This should be a calling - not a sheer service, in my opinion. If God doesn't give someone a heart for children, then they probably have other ministry gifts.

 

I completely agree. And I wasn't saying that the older generation should teach a class; I was merely replying to Janna's statement that churches today don't want the older generation involved in children's Sunday school.

 

Here is my entire post including my last sentence which referenced that.

 

At our current church, there are people of every generation who teach the children's Sunday school classes. It is great!

 

Unfortunately, the church we were a part of in Texas had an older generation who didn't help at all with any of the children's ministries. They had "done their time" when their children were growing up, and told us that in no uncertain terms. In those exact words, actually.

 

So, it is not always the younger generation who doesn't want the involvement of the older folks; sometimes the older ones aren't interested in serving any longer.

[Jackie in AR]

I totally agree with them. My son's 2yr ss teacher had not been in an adult ss class in 30years. She more than served her time. I feel if every parent would volunteer where their children are the older generation would be more than happy to sub once in a while when those volunteers need a Sunday off.

 

No, that wasn't the case at our former church.