Quiverfull philosophy...who here practices?

[tex-mex]

For me being QF is a heart thing - accepting the # of dc God has for you whether that be zero or twenty, accepting His plan for one's life instead of pursuing one's own will. I don't have that acceptance. I envy those who are able to accept and rejoice in God's will as far as dc are concerned.

 

Thank you for sharing that. I have to share I am finally at a point where I am content and at peace with God's choice for our family. When I was younger, I struggled with this issue & infertility and it wasn't until years later, I realized God knew what He was doing. I am a carrier of a fatal genetic disorder that can be devastating to my children. Plus, I could die in pregnancy or labor. Our son is doing fine -- he is a miracle child! :001_wub:

 

Unfortunately, this disorder disqualifies me from adopting here and abroad as son and I are considered high risk/"catastrophic" for health reasons. Again, I am at peace with God's decision. But truly admire those who can have a large family. I love the show on TLC with the Duggars, for example. Is ATI the same as QF? Duggars are ATI for hsing.

 

I appreciate learning about the QF movement. Never knew much about it. So, this is a good way to learn! If I may ask a dumb question, some QF families like the Duggars wear skirts all of the time and long hair. Is that QF or some other philosophy? Thanks!

Edited August 10, 2009 by tex-mex

[Marylou]

So if the number god wants you to have is zero and makes you infertile, wouldn't pursuing adoption be going against god's plan? Biblically, women didn't didn't spend thousands of coins and go a billion miles away for Chinese babies etc.

 

You mean "billions of coins" and "thousands of miles" right? I really hope you're just kidding.

 

The Bible is loaded with references about taking care of the orphans in the world. What better way than to take them into your home and make them your precious children?

 

www.showhope.org

[tricia]

We are quiverfull. Have been since about our 3rd child and we now have 12.

[Geo]

Sometimes I've wondered about the Quiverfull movement inregards to infertility and adoption. DH and I are infertile and have adopted 3 children from the fostercare system (and are trying to adopt more, but we've been waiting for 2 years now). I guess if we were to take an extreme view of it, we would have to accept that it was God's will that we were to be childless, but I really can't believe that is true. He has blessed us with our children, they are being raised in a Christian home and will be given love, nurturing and every advantage. How could that not be God's will?

 

I agree. A closed womb does not equate a closed heart. Thank God for His Grace on adoptive families who have opened their hearts, lives and homes to fatherless children.

 

"And whoever receives one such child in my name receives Me".

Matthew 18 :5

 

 

Geo

Edited August 10, 2009 by Geo

[mommaduck]

Thank you for sharing that. I have to share I am finally at a point where I am content and at peace with God's choice for our family. When I was younger, I struggled with this issue & infertility and it wasn't until years later, I realized God knew what He was doing. I am a carrier of a fatal genetic disorder that can be devastating to my children. Plus, I could die in pregnancy or labor. Our son is doing fine -- he is a miracle child! :001_wub:

 

Unfortunately, this disorder disqualifies me from adopting here and abroad as son and I are considered high risk/"catastrophic" for health reasons. Again, I am at peace with God's decision. But truly admire those who can have a large family. I love the show on TLC with the Duggars, for example. Is ATI the same as QF? Duggars are ATI for hsing.

 

I appreciate learning about the QF movement. Never knew much about it. So, this is a good way to learn! If I may ask a dumb question, some QF families like the Duggars wear skirts all of the time and long hair. Is that QF or some other philosophy? Thanks!

 

ATI is under Bill Gothard. "Gothardites" are taught to be quiverful. You have to be taking Gothard's seminars to be ATI (advanced seminar level), but not all those that do become ATI (use ATI curric).

 

The hair and skirts is not QF. Some QF do and some don't. Gothard teaches about modesty. The hair is more personal preference to a point. You can be ATI and still cut and style your hair. Now if you go all punk style on them, uhm, that would be an issue with them.

Edited August 10, 2009 by mommaduck

[Quiver0f10]

We are qf, but not ATI( never heard of ati until I heard of the Duggars ), I wear jeans and a t shirt most days and cut my hair although I do like it a bit on the longer side.

[sarahb44]

We dont, though I have been on the fence for a few yrs. We had 2 boys. A vasectomy, a vas reversal and have been overly blessed with 2 more amazing babies. But right now I feel DONE, overwhelmed and exhausted. I adore infants and toddlers. My school aged ones are wearing me lately and I *think* this is causing us to feel done. I adore, and admire QF families!

[blessed2fosteradopt]

Just wanted to say something about adoption.

 

The Bible is full of adoption stories. It tells you that adopting a child is a wonderful blessing. I firmly believe that adopting is just as much a part of 'Quiverfull' as giving birth. God calls us to grow our families, He isn't specific how. I truly believe that some are simply called to adopt, in the same way that God gives us all different callings and talents.

 

A child coming into the family is a blessing...regardless of the path taken to bring them to the family.

 

James 1:27 - Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

 

As one who serves the foster and adoptive community, I am passionate about adoption and think that as Christians we are called to take care of God's abandoned and neglected little ones. I have been blessed to be able to answer the call that God has placed upon me by adopting two children. I suffered for many years with infertility after the birth of my 11yo son. I couldn't understand why God had chosen to close my womb until 3 years ago when my precious little ones came to me via the foster care system. It was all part of His plan. Had I conceived more children, we would've never had the two blessings we have now. I believe that God fills each of our quivers in different ways. Is mine full? Well, according to my dh it is and I am fine with that but we will see what God has in store.

 

Heather, God bless you in your quest to add children to your family through adoption. There are many, many little ones (I see their precious faces every day) waiting for their forever families. I can't begin to imagine that our loving God wants anything less for these children than He wants for those He brings to use through our womb.

[LibraryLover]

You mean "billions of coins" and "thousands of miles" right? I really hope you're just kidding.

 

The Bible is loaded with references about taking care of the orphans in the world. What better way than to take them into your home and make them your precious children?

 

www.showhope.org

 

 

I was kidding. I have partly built my family through adoption. QF is not my thing, but I like large families. I've never heard of a QF family who built their family only by adoption. (Although I am sure they must be out there). I think QF people ought to just admit they like having kids, and not push it on god. What's the problem with just admitting you like having babies and want to fill the world with more Christians. Own it.

Edited August 11, 2009 by LibraryLover

[HeatherLynn]

I was kidding. I have built my family through adoption. QF is not my thing, but I like large families. I've never heard of a QF family who built their family only by adoption. (Although I am sure they must be out there). I think QF people ought to just admit they like having kids, and not push it on god. What's the problem with just admitting you like having babies and want to fill the world with more Christians. Own it.

 

That is funny right there. I DO like having kids, but I can't any longer. Well, I *could* if it were a miracle, but by all appearances, I am barren. Anyhow, even though I love kids and would LOVE to have a large family, I am trusting God to give me the signs to keep going or to stop. I do believe he will only give me what I can handle. Whether that be my 4 or 14, I'll let him decide by shutting and opening doors.

 

I do not dress like the Duggars EVERY DAY. LOL. I do wear my hair long, but also cut and style it and even highlight it. I like to wear jumpers and skirts because it makes me feel more feminine and biblical. However, I also like to wear my shorts and capris. LOL My DD is certainly not a feminine dresser very much, and I am okay with that. I want her to be comfortable in her skin.

 

Yes, we do try to be modest, but my definition of modesty may vary from that of others since my DD is allowed to wear tank tops and a bikini around family (she has to wear a more modest suit when at public swim places, a long tankini). She is not allowed to show her tummy in public, ever.

[Ginevra]

What do you (those who believe in QF) make of this?

 

I was persuaded of the QF thinking years ago...about 8 years ago. I had two kids and dh was "done". Dh would never have embraced something so "crazy". So I left it up to God, figuring if God really wanted us to go this direction, He would work out the husband problem. Miraculously, He did seem to do this. The particulars make an amazing story, but to be concise, dh changed his mind and we eventually conceived #3. But then I lost that baby at birth. I maintained my belief that God would work it out. We conceived again. I lost that baby to miscarriage at 8 weeks. I was getting a little jaded by then, but again we conceived. Things worked out and we had Mason, but it was a high-risk pregnancy. By that point, dh was WAAAAYYY done. So over having any more kids. Only because I cried and begged and pleaded did he not make it permanent.

 

My youngest is going on 5 now. For a long time, I really thought God would make a way and we would have more kids one way or another. I am completely open to adoption and would begin immediately if dh agreed. Now, though, I can't help wondering what the point was of this whole horrible journey, if we only end up with 3 kids anyway. Which is how it looks to be. Dh shows not the most remote sign of changing his mind. We are getting old. Unless something totally astonishing happens in spite of b/c, we're not having more kids.

 

I know that the aim of QF is not having a large family, but I don't see what point there was in God bringing me to it (if, indeed He did) when it just made me want what I can't have. Earlier in my life, I had no notion of having or adopting more than average amount of kids. I think I was better off when I just expected to have 2 or 3 kids and then get a vasectomy and be done.

[kmacnchs]

I have never heard of this term before (verse, yes, "term", no) but we are definitely QF.

 

I went to the GYN 5 mo before I was married (because my mom told me that is what you do) and she told me all different forms of birth control and how they are "perfectly healthy", etc, etc. My mom used bc and everyone I knew "planned" their children's births but God was REALLY speaking to my heart saying this was wrong. I talked to my (then) fiance about God making it clear that He did not want me to use bc SOLEY because of my control issues (Type A here!) and that I needed to leave it up to Him to determine when, and how many children I have. Well, praise God, my hubby believes the same thing! I knew he was the oldest of 5 but I didn't know why (his mom is QF too).

 

So, I talked to my pastor's wife about God's leading and she sent me to a friend that had gone to a class at the seminary that told of what bc REALLY does to you and your babies, which just solidified it in my mind.

 

So, now I struggle with 2 things...1. my parents (CONTROL FREAKS) think what I am doing is horrible (to my body, to my children, because of finances, and just in general), and 2. I LOVE nursing and want to for at least 1 year so I basically keep up with my cycle until then (my poor hubby)...I struggle with whether I am going against God's Will by doing that...we are not using "bc" but I guess I am not leaving it totally up to God...some advice? encouragement? btdt?

 

btw, my ds is 4mo and I have not "become a woman" yet so praise God!:D

Edited August 10, 2009 by kmacnchs

[Geo]

What do you (those who believe in QF) make of this?

 

I was persuaded of the QF thinking years ago...about 8 years ago. I had two kids and dh was "done". Dh would never have embraced something so "crazy". So I left it up to God, figuring if God really wanted us to go this direction, He would work out the husband problem. Miraculously, He did seem to do this. The particulars make an amazing story, but to be concise, dh changed his mind and we eventually conceived #3. But then I lost that baby at birth. I maintained my belief that God would work it out. We conceived again. I lost that baby to miscarriage at 8 weeks. I was getting a little jaded by then, but again we conceived. Things worked out and we had Mason, but it was a high-risk pregnancy. By that point, dh was WAAAAYYY done. So over having any more kids. Only because I cried and begged and pleaded did he not make it permanent.

 

My youngest is going on 5 now. For a long time, I really thought God would make a way and we would have more kids one way or another. I am completely open to adoption and would begin immediately if dh agreed. Now, though, I can't help wondering what the point was of this whole horrible journey, if we only end up with 3 kids anyway. Which is how it looks to be. Dh shows not the most remote sign of changing his mind. We are getting old. Unless something totally astonishing happens in spite of b/c, we're not having more kids.

 

I know that the aim of QF is not having a large family, but I don't see what point there was in God bringing me to it (if, indeed He did) when it just made me want what I can't have. Earlier in my life, I had no notion of having or adopting more than average amount of kids. I think I was better off when I just expected to have 2 or 3 kids and then get a vasectomy and be done.

 

It sounds like you're disappointed with God.

 

Geo

[Marylou]

I think QF people ought to just admit they like having kids, and not push it on god. What's the problem with just admitting you like having babies and want to fill the world with more Christians. Own it.

 

Wow.

[Ginevra]

It sounds like you're disappointed with God.

Yes.

 

What I'm wondering is if there is anybody else who did embrace QF, only to have nothing good come of it.

[Geo]

I think QF people ought to just admit they like having kids, and not push it on god. What's the problem with just admitting you like having babies and want to fill the world with more Christians. Own it.

 

"Wow" is right. Don't know how I missed this comment. I sincerely hope you are kidding, but suspect you're not. Speaking only for my family, I'd have to say just the opposite. It was 1989, we were "done" after three kids, I mean it. Well, for about six months anyway. God moved on my heart that I didn't value what he valued. God, as the Creator, loves life and puts the highest value on it and that being a good Father, He only wants to give good gifts to His children...the fruit of the womb is a reward....blessed is he whose quiver is full. This might not impress everyone, but when anointed by the Spirit of God...it has POWER to change a heart. My husband and I were being "self"-ish and wanted to build a life centered around ourselves so we could "do things and have stuff". Our first three kids were borne out of our fleshly desire, the next three were birthed out of unity with God's heart. Intimacy results in fruitfulness. That's why I say it's a faith thing.

 

Charles Wesley expresses it so simply,

 

Jesus, from whom all blessings flow,

Great Builder of Thy church below,

If now Thy Spirit moves my breast,

Hear, and fulfill Thine own request!

 

Geo

 

`

Edited August 11, 2009 by Geo

[Veritaserum]

I went to the GYN 5 mo before I was married (because my mom told me that is what you do) and she told me all different forms of birth control and how they are "perfectly healthy", etc, etc. My mom used bc and everyone I knew "planned" their children's births but God was REALLY speaking to my heart saying this was wrong.

 

That was me, too. Dh and I really prayed about it and thought about it while we were engaged. We came to the conclusion that God wants us to have as many children as we can physically and emotionally care for. We decided that we wouldn't wait (even though EVERYONE except my parents told us we should). We prayed about our decision and got a surprise answer that we should wait 6 months. Not knowing about other options, I did use the pill for 6 months (ick) and we conceived in our 7th month of marriage.

 

So, now I struggle with 2 things...1. my parents (CONTROL FREAKS) think what I am doing is horrible (to my body, to my children, because of finances, and just in general), and 2. I LOVE nursing and want to for at least 1 year so I basically keep up with my cycle until then (my poor hubby)...I struggle with whether I am going against God's Will by doing that...we are not using "bc" but I guess I am not leaving it totally up to God...some advice? encouragement? btdt?

 

btw, my ds is 4mo and I have not "become a woman" yet so praise God!:D

 

After our first baby was born I read Taking Charge of Your Fertility by Toni Weschler, which I highly recommend for anyone wanting to know more about how their bodies work. I was fascinated that God designed our bodies to give clear signals as to when we are fertile, which I interpret as a sanction to use that information to decide whether or not we're ready for another baby. I do not think God approves of physical or emotional burn-out from too many kids too close together. It's not good for the parents or the children. Yes, God can and does strengthen us and help us, but I think He also expects us to use common sense. :tongue_smilie:

 

Our kids have come every 21 - 30 months because I'm infertile for a year+ after giving birth due to breastfeeding (Sheila Kippley has an excellent book called Breastfeeding and Natural Childspacing). With five, dh and I are feeling pretty maxed out. We'll see how we feel in a few years.

 

I think it's essential to realize that some couple's quivers are smaller than others. ;)

[HeatherLynn]

 

I think it's essential to realize that some couple's quivers are smaller than others. ;)

 

I believe this is key right here.

 

My first two children were born 11 months apart and I was exclusively BF AND we were using other natural methods after #1. With #3, I was also BF and using other methods, and she still came. Then, I used abstinence. It worked like a charm. :lol: Low and behold, secondary infertility took hold and we had to work hard for pregnancies #4 and #5, only to loose them too. We were clearly led to adopt which is in God's word and he does lead people to this route. Our son Troy came very quickly as affirmation of this. How else are these children going to be taken care of. I have peace with being barren now, and feel blessed to have given birth to all four of my children, even my son who was born still. (pregnancy #4 was twins which were m/c)

[Geo]

Yes.

 

What I'm wondering is if there is anybody else who did embrace QF, only to have nothing good come of it.

 

You must be referring to your losses, not Mason, correct? I don't know why such things happen, though I could imagine some. Your sweet ones have only ever known the safety and warmth of your womb and the soft, rhythmic beating of your heart and then...being born into the Kingdom of Heaven. Their whole lives were/are free of pain and suffering...never knowing the agony of rejection or the bitter remorse of committing sin. It comes closer to Enoch than the rest of us will ever know. Don't let your grief and confusion seperate you from God's comfort. "Prayer is a salve for every sore, even the sorest; a remedy for every malady, even the most grievous."

"Pour out your heart like water before the face of the LORD,..." Lamentations 2:19

 

Geo

[BakersDozen]

I know that the aim of QF is not having a large family, but I don't see what point there was in God bringing me to it (if, indeed He did) when it just made me want what I can't have.

What I'm wondering is if there is anybody else who did embrace QF, only to have nothing good come of it.

Your questions make me weep - my heart aches for what you have been through. I'll share (briefly) what happened with me in hopes it will help you somehow.

 

I decided that being QF was a good thing when I was pg w/#4. I'd had 4dc in 4 years and thought that by not preventing I would have the 12dc I'd always wanted. Such arrogance!! Within a year of that decision I lost 3 precious babies and part of my reproductive system. My heart and life were shattered, I don't remember anything from Oct. 31, 2001-April 2002. I missed my dc's bdays, the holidays, everything. I declared that being QF stank, I had better luck when God wasn't a part of my fertility and disinvited Him into that area of my life (I'm lucky I'm still on the planet for how I spoke to Him). It was a very bad time. I was angry at everyone (pg women were my enemy especially those with "oops" pregnancies) and God was at the top of my list...oh how sad that makes me. Then came the day I broke.

 

I was in my closet looking at the pregnancy journal I had bought thinking I would use it soon after #4 was born, and I wept. Only that time it was different because I was not crying out to God for more dc, I was crying out to be back in His will, to seek His plan instead of my own even if that meant no more babies. I told Him that my heart was breaking at the very thought of not having more dc yet more than anything I needed to be back with Him. It was a time of healing for me that, unfortunately, took a long time to get to and I had to go through much sorrow in the process.

 

I cannot say what my heart would have been had I not conceived again. I openly admit that I would have struggled (I'm not one to joyfully accept when I don't get something I really want ;)) and admit with great embarassment that I still struggle. But I have learned in the years since that happened that the purpose in being QF is, above all, to accept and seek God's will for our lives, to trust Him even when we don't understand. For me that acceptance isn't there and I cannot say that I am QF. I believe for me being QF is a process that may take a lifetime rather than a one-time decision. Like you I wondered why God would bring me to something that would make me want what I couldn't have (it is very hard for me to get/stay pg, dh is not open to adoption even though he himself was adopted). Yet this journey has brought me closer to Him and has shown me more than ever that He is GOD, He is on His throne, and no matter what He does in my life as far as dc go I will still love Him (those of you who've seen "Facing the Giants" recognize those lines...I cried so hard because I was right where she/they were). I've lost 5 babies since the ectopic in 2001 and do not ever assume to have another baby. I've already told God that if there are no more babies in my future that I will have to work through that and it will not be easy - in fact I've already apologized to Him for what I will think/feel. :blush:

 

Quill, what you have been through is heart-breaking and I pray that you have felt His loving arms around you through it all. I hope my post has been a help to you and not brought more hurt.

 

I think QF people ought to just admit they like having kids, and not push it on god. What's the problem with just admitting you like having babies and want to fill the world with more Christians. Own it.

 

:blink: Edited August 11, 2009 by LuvnMySvn

[Myrrh]

Why yes, our quiver is full and we are blessed by our three children...but no, we don't subscribe to the one-verse theology which says that having a full quiver means not being proactive in limiting family size. I find it offensive when people describe "quiver full" as allowing God to decide how many children you have (see the first few posts in this thread), and putting God in control...not just offensive to me, but to our awesome and sovereign Creator. The God I believe in (the one of the Bible) is bigger than any of our choices. Haven't we all heard the stories of children conceived despite the pill, the condom, etc.? I even know several people who had children after having vasectomies (there's a 1 in 1600 chance of it growing back).

 

And to be consistently "quiver full", couples would be obligated to always do the deed during the woman's fertile period every month. Not just whenever they feel like it.

 

I get pretty fired up about this issue because of the abuses it can cause. It is part of the larger hyper-patriarchy movement which has various branches--as has been mentioned by others in this thread, Bill Gothard and ATI is one (I didn't realize the Duggars were part of that), Vision Forum is another, and I believe the Pearls as well. I'm not sure about Doug Wilson but he is part of the patriocentric movement.

 

The hyper-patriarchal people are also often hyper-calvinists. I'm a calvinist but am wary of the legalistic direction I've seen many in the Reformed camp going.

 

Here are some of the sites dealing with the controversy of QF and the spiritual abuse of patriocentricity (I've amassed a number of them and intend to blog it all out eventually):

 

http://quiveringdaughters.blogspot.com/

(oldest daughter raised in a QF family, details spiritual abuse)

 

http://truewomanhood.wordpress.com/

(this is the motherlode of discussion threads)

 

http://www.thatmom.com/

(experienced older homeschooling mom who has become something of an authority on patriocentricity--search her blog for "quiver")

[Geo]

Why yes, our quiver is full and we are blessed by our three children...but no, we don't subscribe to the one-verse theology which says that having a full quiver means not being proactive in limiting family size. I find it offensive when people describe "quiver full" as allowing God to decide how many children you have (see the first few posts in this thread), and putting God in control...not just offensive to me, but to our awesome and sovereign Creator. The God I believe in (the one of the Bible) is bigger than any of our choices. Haven't we all heard the stories of children conceived despite the pill, the condom, etc.? I even know several people who had children after having vasectomies (there's a 1 in 1600 chance of it growing back).

 

And to be consistently "quiver full", couples would be obligated to always do the deed during the woman's fertile period every month. Not just whenever they feel like it.

 

I get pretty fired up about this issue because of the abuses it can cause. It is part of the larger hyper-patriarchy movement which has various branches--as has been mentioned by others in this thread, Bill Gothard and ATI is one (I didn't realize the Duggars were part of that), Vision Forum is another, and I believe the Pearls as well. I'm not sure about Doug Wilson but he is part of the patriocentric movement.

 

The hyper-patriarchal people are also often hyper-calvinists. I'm a calvinist but am wary of the legalistic direction I've seen many in the Reformed camp going.

 

Here are some of the sites dealing with the controversy of QF and the spiritual abuse of patriocentricity (I've amassed a number of them and intend to blog it all out eventually):

 

http://quiveringdaughters.blogspot.com/

(oldest daughter raised in a QF family, details spiritual abuse)

 

http://truewomanhood.wordpress.com/

(this is the motherlode of discussion threads)

 

http://www.thatmom.com/

(experienced older homeschooling mom who has become something of an authority on patriocentricity--search her blog for "quiver")

 

 

 

Interesting... so you feel that God's Sovereignty is glorified when He acts in spite of our efforts, but not when one consciously acknowledges that Sovereignty at the outset? Don't let some badly worded statements in this thread cause you to hyper-react. The ministries you mention may have a view on qf, but they do not "own" it. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to start a S/O thread stating your concerns rather than act as a troll and attempt to hijack this one?

 

Geo

 

Urban dictionary definition of Troll: One who posts a deliberately provocative message to newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.

Edited August 11, 2009 by Geo
restraint/rephrase

[KingM]

Originally Posted by LaurieNE View Post

I think QF people ought to just admit they like having kids, and not push it on god. What's the problem with just admitting you like having babies and want to fill the world with more Christians. Own it.

 

"Wow" is right. Don't know how I missed this comment. I sincerely hope you are kidding, but suspect you're not. Speaking only for my family, I'd have to say just the opposite.

 

So you don't like babies and you don't want to fill the world with Christians?

 

LaurieNE put it rather bluntly, to say the least, but I suspect that a lot of people outside the QF movement see a bit of truth in her statement. I do think QF followers really, really like children, as a general rule (nothing wrong with that), and yes, are focusing on one particular scripture to support their love of children.

 

I'm not saying there aren't other factors involved, but from an outsider's perspective, this is what it looks like.

[Marylou]

So you don't like babies and you don't want to fill the world with Christians?

 

LaurieNE put it rather bluntly, to say the least, but I suspect that a lot of people outside the QF movement see a bit of truth in her statement. I do think QF followers really, really like children, as a general rule (nothing wrong with that), and yes, are focusing on one particular scripture to support their love of children.

 

I'm not saying there aren't other factors involved, but from an outsider's perspective, this is what it looks like.

 

No, if anything, they focus on one particular scripture to support their love of God.

 

Now, that's worth another "wow" ;)

[KingM]

No, if anything, they focus on one particular scripture to support their love of God.

 

 

Doesn't that imply that someone who has eight children loves God more than someone who has four children, or one? Or none, for that matter?

 

Maybe I'm struggling to wrap my mind around the QF philosophy, but it's obvious to me that not everyone can follow this practice or we'd eat ourselves off the planet like a horde of locusts within about two generations. So are the QF the elect? The ones with the secret insight into the will of the Lord?

[mommaduck]

Why yes, our quiver is full and we are blessed by our three children...but no, we don't subscribe to the one-verse theology which says that having a full quiver means not being proactive in limiting family size. I find it offensive when people describe "quiver full" as allowing God to decide how many children you have (see the first few posts in this thread), and putting God in control...not just offensive to me, but to our awesome and sovereign Creator. The God I believe in (the one of the Bible) is bigger than any of our choices. Haven't we all heard the stories of children conceived despite the pill, the condom, etc.? I even know several people who had children after having vasectomies (there's a 1 in 1600 chance of it growing back).

 

And to be consistently "quiver full", couples would be obligated to always do the deed during the woman's fertile period every month. Not just whenever they feel like it.

 

I get pretty fired up about this issue because of the abuses it can cause. It is part of the larger hyper-patriarchy movement which has various branches--as has been mentioned by others in this thread, Bill Gothard and ATI is one (I didn't realize the Duggars were part of that), Vision Forum is another, and I believe the Pearls as well. I'm not sure about Doug Wilson but he is part of the patriocentric movement.

 

The hyper-patriarchal people are also often hyper-calvinists. I'm a calvinist but am wary of the legalistic direction I've seen many in the Reformed camp going.

 

Here are some of the sites dealing with the controversy of QF and the spiritual abuse of patriocentricity (I've amassed a number of them and intend to blog it all out eventually):

 

http://quiveringdaughters.blogspot.com/

(oldest daughter raised in a QF family, details spiritual abuse)

 

http://truewomanhood.wordpress.com/

(this is the motherlode of discussion threads)

 

http://www.thatmom.com/

(experienced older homeschooling mom who has become something of an authority on patriocentricity--search her blog for "quiver")

 

Quiverful + Reformed does not equate hyper calvinism :glare: Oh, how awful, the evil, evil breeders within the Reformed churches! Are some of these families neglectful and abusive? Sure, there are some. But because I know of families that use BC and are abusive, maybe I should just start making points that all are (?)

[kmacnchs]

I find it offensive when people describe "quiver full" as allowing God to decide how many children you have (see the first few posts in this thread), and putting God in control...not just offensive to me, but to our awesome and sovereign Creator. The God I believe in (the one of the Bible) is bigger than any of our choices. Haven't we all heard the stories of children conceived despite the pill, the condom, etc.? I even know several people who had children after having vasectomies (there's a 1 in 1600 chance of it growing back).

 

And to be consistently "quiver full", couples would be obligated to always do the deed during the woman's fertile period every month. Not just whenever they feel like it.

 

After the first couple of pages, it is confirmed that QF is NOT having as many children as you can, but being joyful about whatever God decides (how many children you have).

 

I know of many children that were conceived *in spite* of efforts to not...QF to me is acknowledging God's control (not trying to fight God). I fully believe that my dc would have been born regardless of what I was doing (bc, etc) because God is Sovereign. But I think it is MOST important to live WITHIN God's Will, not against it.

 

Just to reiterate...I am not intimate with my dh on a schedule...because the point of being intimate is not to populate the Earth...that is NOT the point of QF! I know I am not making sense but I tried...one of those days already:tongue_smilie:

[Marylou]

Doesn't that imply that someone who has eight children loves God more than someone who has four children, or one? Or none, for that matter?

 

Maybe I'm struggling to wrap my mind around the QF philosophy, but it's obvious to me that not everyone can follow this practice or we'd eat ourselves off the planet like a horde of locusts within about two generations. So are the QF the elect? The ones with the secret insight into the will of the Lord?

 

Um. . . no, you really misunderstood my post. Christians are supposed to make decisions in life based upon what pleases/glorifies the Lord, not because we like insert your preference (for anything) here.

 

So are the QF the elect?

 

Sure hope you're just joking here. But if not, perhaps you should reread the Reformed threads again. The only one who has "secret insight" into anything is God.

 

Please stick with the OP or start your own. Thanks.

[Geo]

So you don't like babies and you don't want to fill the world with Christians?

 

LaurieNE put it rather bluntly, to say the least, but I suspect that a lot of people outside the QF movement see a bit of truth in her statement. I do think QF followers really, really like children, as a general rule (nothing wrong with that), and yes, are focusing on one particular scripture to support their love of children.

 

I'm not saying there aren't other factors involved, but from an outsider's perspective, this is what it looks like.

 

 

I'm not surprised that you cut out my explanation in quoting me because you have already made up your mind about my motive and actions, regardless of my sharing a very intimate experience pertaining to it. This thread has revealed the heart postures of a good number of of folk. Now that you've had that priveledge, will you continue to judge what it "looks" like? ...or are you just trying to be a pot stirrer?

 

 

 

Geo

Edited August 11, 2009 by Geo

[Myrrh]

Interesting... so you feel that God's Sovereignty is glorified when He acts in spite of our efforts, but not when one consciously acknowledges that Sovereignty at the outset? Don't let some badly worded statements in this thread cause you to hyper-react. The ministries you mention may have a view on qf, but they do not "own" it. Wouldn't it be more appropriate to start a S/O thread stating your concerns rather than act as a troll and attempt to hijack this one?

 

Geo

 

Urban dictionary definition of Troll: One who posts a deliberately provocative message to newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.

 

I am *not* a troll but the fact that you would be so quick to label me that way merely because I present an alternate viewpoint (and exposing abuses within the other viewpoint) only further confirms the judgemental/holier-than-thou attitude which I have witnessed among some of QF camp.

 

As someone stated earlier in this thread, one's convictions about having children should be between each couple and the Lord. There is no Scripture which directly addresses family planning. The only commands concerning children are from the womb on. If you want to say that any form of human intervention is disregarding God's sovereignty, then this philosophy must be applied in the opposite direction as well--wouldn't using medical technology that extends natural life be taking matters into our own hands? Same with fertility drugs. And so on...

 

The only reason I even spoke up about this topic is because of how my heart grieves for the families who have been enslaved by legalism, and where spiritual and emotional abuse is occurring. I know this isn't every QF family, but the sites I referenced in my earlier comments (as well as many others) are a testimony to where this can go. The mere fact that there is a name and a movement for holding this belief "Quiver Full" I find troubling. It's as though that verse belongs only to those who are interpreting it "correctly." Otherwise, as I said in the first sentence of my previous comment, I too should be able to call myself "Quiverfull" since I definitely believe I have a full quiver and I am very blessed.

 

Let's look at the single passage that started this thread and from which an entire theology about family has emerged (Psalm 127:3-5):

 

3 Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord,

the fruit of the womb a reward.

4 Like arrows in the hand of a warrior

are the children [1] of one's youth.

5 Blessed is the man

who fills his quiver with them!

He shall not be put to shame

when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.

 

Where in that does it say that people who attempt to limit the size of their family are out of God's will? If you exegete it that way (read into it), then you would also have to say that it means those without children are somehow second class citizens. There's nothing here about "belief" -- it's literally about having children. People could even use this verse as a rationale for taking fertility drugs.

 

I prefer to read the Bible in context, not extract a single passage and slap a "thou shalt not..." on it.

 

As for outpopulating the non-Christians, the Bible shows examples of just the opposite. God's chosen people, the Hebrews, were always a minority. The great battles were always won with the least manpower to demonstrate God's power.

 

And if Paul says it's better not to be married to be able to fully devote oneself to the work of the Lord, one could even infer (and I'm not doing that) it's better to have a smaller family to be more free to go out and minister.

 

This is obviously a *HUGE* topic but the bottom line is that this is not a foundational doctrine of Christianity and if it causes division, condescension, and abuse, it's gone farther than personal convictions and into legalism.

[Myrrh]

Quiverful + Reformed does not equate hyper calvinism :glare: Oh, how awful, the evil, evil breeders within the Reformed churches! Are some of these families neglectful and abusive? Sure, there are some. But because I know of families that use BC and are abusive, maybe I should just start making points that all are (?)

 

I did not say that QF + Reformed = hypercalvism, nor that all who identify with QF are abusive. I just was pointing out that I've noticed a pattern of hypercalvinism connected with patriocentricity, so there can be a slippery slope between theologies. Your sarcasm is uncalled for. As for populating, please see the comment I posted just before this one.

[Geo]

Doesn't that imply that someone who has eight children loves God more than someone who has four children, or one? Or none, for that matter?

 

Maybe I'm struggling to wrap my mind around the QF philosophy, but it's obvious to me that not everyone can follow this practice or we'd eat ourselves off the planet like a horde of locusts within about two generations. So are the QF the elect? The ones with the secret insight into the will of the Lord?

 

\|||/

(o o)

,----ooO--(_)-------.

| Please |

| don't feed the |

| TROLL's ! |

'--------------Ooo--'

|__|__|

|| ||

ooO Ooo

Edited August 11, 2009 by Geo

[mommaduck]

I am *not* a troll but the fact that you would be so quick to label me that way merely because I present an alternate viewpoint (and exposing abuses within the other viewpoint) only further confirms the judgemental/holier-than-thou attitude which I have witnessed among some of QF camp.

 

~~~~~~

 

The only reason I even spoke up about this topic is because of how my heart grieves for the families who have been enslaved by legalism, and where spiritual and emotional abuse is occurring.

 

 

#1 YOUR post came off as harsh, judgmental, and YOU had the holier than thou attitude.

 

#2 And here are the judgments. Not all Quiverful or large families are "enslaved, legalistic, or abusive". This was a support thread. There were a few honest questions asked and answered. But your post was a simple out and out attack on ALL those that are quiverful, have been quiverful, or simply have large families.

[Myrrh]

#1 YOUR post came off as harsh, judgmental, and YOU had the holier than thou attitude.

 

#2 And here are the judgments. Not all Quiverful or large families are "enslaved, legalistic, or abusive". This was a support thread. There were a few honest questions asked and answered. But your post was a simple out and out attack on ALL those that are quiverful, have been quiverful, or simply have large families.

 

Thou doth protest.

[Geo]

This is the thread title (topic) reads:

 

Quiverfull philosophy...who here practices? ...

 

not

 

Quiverfull philosophy...who wants to debate?

 

 

 

I cry Troll when I see one and at no other time.

 

 

Geo

[Georgie]

\|||/

(o o)

,----ooO--(_)-------.

| Please |

| don't feed the |

| TROLL's ! |

'--------------Ooo--'

|__|__|

|| ||

ooO Ooo

 

Hmm, maybe a simple I do not wish to answer your question...... or simply ignore???

[mommaduck]

*needs to figure out how to put someone on ignore* Amazing, even with my arguments with Spycar and others, I've never felt the need to use it.

[kmacnchs]

This is on the front page of the quiverfull website:

 

We exalt Jesus Christ as Lord, and acknowledge His headship in all areas of our lives, including fertility. We exist to serve those believers who trust the Lord for family size, and to answer the questions of those seeking truth in this critical area of marriage.

Whether your quiver is large or small, you are welcome.

 

So again I say, being QF is NOT having many children (it says whether your quiver is large or small...NOT full or not). It is about "acknowledg[ing] His headship in all areas of our lives, including fertility".

 

Really, who can argue with acknowledging that the Lord is the leader of your family???

[Dianne-TX]

This is on the front page of the quiverfull website:

 

We exalt Jesus Christ as Lord, and acknowledge His headship in all areas of our lives, including fertility. We exist to serve those believers who trust the Lord for family size, and to answer the questions of those seeking truth in this critical area of marriage.

Whether your quiver is large or small, you are welcome.

 

So again I say, being QF is NOT having many children (it says whether your quiver is large or small...NOT full or not). It is about "acknowledg[ing] His headship in all areas of our lives, including fertility".

 

Really, who can argue with acknowledging that the Lord is the leader of your family???

 

Exactly. It's when we try to analyze it and make it "fit" in our common sense. Just another area where God is God and we are not and we will not be able to figure it out. It's complete faith, not necessarily knowing the end of the story. Are we willing to step out without knowing the end of the story? It's not about the number or if the ability to have children is even possible, it's about our hearts and if we truly acknowledge Him as over it all.

[KingM]

Not all Quiverful or large families are "enslaved, legalistic, or abusive".

 

Look at the Duggars, for example. I think they're absolutely nuts (you know, in the "wow, I would go nuts" sort of way), but they sure seem to have their head in the game. The J&K+8 fiasco, on the other hand, maybe is an example of biting off more than you can chew.

[KingM]

I'm not surprised that you cut out my explanation in quoting me because you have already made up your mind about my motive and actions, regardless of my sharing a very intimate experience pertaining to it.

 

No, I admit that I don't know what your motives are. I trust they are what you claim they are.

 

I have, however, seen QF types (by "types", I include others who don't believe in birth control) refer to family planning as evil, because it attempts to thwart God's will, or explicitly state that a Christian natalist movement will eventually overwhelm the opposition through shear demographics. Outbreed 'em, in other words.

[Impish]

I always find this confusing. Why do folks get so upset about a religious belief when its not one they follow? What does it hurt you if nobody's insisting you follow it, or even agree to it?

[mommaduck]

I always find this confusing. Why do folks get so upset about a religious belief when its not one they follow? What does it hurt you if nobody's insisting you follow it, or even agree to it?

 

THANK YOU! I get tired of being shot at from one side or another. I'm certain others do also. There are many reasons a person may believe what they are doing is right; I listed a few. You don't have to agree with them (I don't agree with all of them). But leave it there.

[Myrrh]

I am *not* a troll but the fact that you would be so quick to label me that way merely because I present an alternate viewpoint (and exposing abuses within the other viewpoint) only further confirms the judgemental/holier-than-thou attitude which I have witnessed among some of QF camp.

 

As someone stated earlier in this thread, one's convictions about having children should be between each couple and the Lord. There is no Scripture which directly addresses family planning. The only commands concerning children are from the womb on. If you want to say that any form of human intervention is disregarding God's sovereignty, then this philosophy must be applied in the opposite direction as well--wouldn't using medical technology that extends natural life be taking matters into our own hands? Same with fertility drugs. And so on...

 

The only reason I even spoke up about this topic is because of how my heart grieves for the families who have been enslaved by legalism, and where spiritual and emotional abuse is occurring. I know this isn't every QF family, but the sites I referenced in my earlier comments (as well as many others) are a testimony to where this can go. The mere fact that there is a name and a movement for holding this belief "Quiver Full" I find troubling. It's as though that verse belongs only to those who are interpreting it "correctly." Otherwise, as I said in the first sentence of my previous comment, I too should be able to call myself "Quiverfull" since I definitely believe I have a full quiver and I am very blessed.

 

Let's look at the single passage that started this thread and from which an entire theology about family has emerged (Psalm 127:3-5):

 

3 Behold, children are a heritage from the Lord,

the fruit of the womb a reward.

4 Like arrows in the hand of a warrior

are the children [1] of one's youth.

5 Blessed is the man

who fills his quiver with them!

He shall not be put to shame

when he speaks with his enemies in the gate.

 

Where in that does it say that people who attempt to limit the size of their family are out of God's will? If you exegete it that way (read into it), then you would also have to say that it means those without children are somehow second class citizens. There's nothing here about "belief" -- it's literally about having children. People could even use this verse as a rationale for taking fertility drugs.

 

I prefer to read the Bible in context, not extract a single passage and slap a "thou shalt not..." on it.

 

As for outpopulating the non-Christians, the Bible shows examples of just the opposite. God's chosen people, the Hebrews, were always a minority. The great battles were always won with the least manpower to demonstrate God's power.

 

And if Paul says it's better not to be married to be able to fully devote oneself to the work of the Lord, one could even infer (and I'm not doing that) it's better to have a smaller family to be more free to go out and minister.

 

This is obviously a *HUGE* topic but the bottom line is that this is not a foundational doctrine of Christianity and if it causes division, condescension, and abuse, it's gone farther than personal convictions and into legalism.

 

Nice how no one actually addresses any of what I said and instead blacklists me. That is a huge red flag that people feel threatened.

 

Again, I say, my motives for posting were:

 

a) The language used to describe QF makes it sound as if though who don't hold to that theology are somehow not trusting the Lord, not putting him first, and otherwise disobeying the Bible. Now THAT is judgemental. And I have a right to defend the unrepresented position in a public forum.

 

b) My heart aches for the women and children who are being spiritually abused within this movement, and their stories need to be heard for the sake of others who may be in similar situations.

[kmacnchs]

a) The language used to describe QF makes it sound as if though who don't hold to that theology are somehow not trusting the Lord, not putting him first, and otherwise disobeying the Bible. Now THAT is judgemental. And I have a right to defend the unrepresented position in a public forum.

 

b) My heart aches for the women and children who are being spiritually abused within this movement, and their stories need to be heard for the sake of others who may be in similar situations.

 

I am sure I will get attacked for this but I *do* think that those who take bc pills (in particular) are not trusting in the Lord *in regards to children*. Why else would you take bc pills unless you did *not* want to get pg? And I *do* think they (bc pill users) are not doing what they should because bc pills kill unborn babies. This said, I also believe MANY (if not the majority) who take bc pills have NO IDEA what it does - they just know that it prevents them from having a baby (supposedly) and that it is "completely safe" because that is what our doctors say, sadly enough.

 

Point B) I'm not sure how you could be abused by being encouraged to let the Lord rule your family...however, I can see your point if you are speaking of people telling women that they must have large families (NOT WHAT QF IS, THOUGH).

[Ginevra]

You must be referring to your losses, not Mason, correct? I don't know why such things happen, though I could imagine some. Your sweet ones have only ever known the safety and warmth of your womb and the soft, rhythmic beating of your heart and then...being born into the Kingdom of Heaven. Their whole lives were/are free of pain and suffering...never knowing the agony of rejection or the bitter remorse of committing sin. It comes closer to Enoch than the rest of us will ever know. Don't let your grief and confusion seperate you from God's comfort. "Prayer is a salve for every sore, even the sorest; a remedy for every malady, even the most grievous."

"Pour out your heart like water before the face of the LORD,..." Lamentations 2:19

 

 

Geo, of course I'm not referring to Mason. I do not see Mason as a good trade or a decent payoff for suffering the losses. It's nice that we did get to have him, but I don't see it as...."Well, if we had never lost the others, we wouldn't have had him." To me, I should have four children, because I gave birth to four children.

 

Also, I appreciate your sentiments about the "beauty" of being born into Heaven, but it's not adequate to make it alright. I don't imagiine any of us set out to have children so we can populate Heaven. If Heaven is so great for our children, then Andrea Yates is a saint and we who raise our children to adulthood are selfishly keeping them from bliss.

 

I hope you take my words in the way I intend them. I am not shooting down your attempt at being soothing. It's just that I'm sure I've heard it all before and really none of it is acceptable balm. It completely sucks to lose a child; it stinks and it makes no sense in any possible light. But I do give people credit for trying.

 

To Lovemy 7: Your sorrows are my sorrows; you said it well. Thanks for that.

[mommaduck]

Nice how no one actually addresses any of what I said and instead blacklists me. That is a huge red flag that people feel threatened.

 

Again, I say, my motives for posting were:

 

a) The language used to describe QF makes it sound as if though who don't hold to that theology are somehow not trusting the Lord, not putting him first, and otherwise disobeying the Bible. Now THAT is judgemental. And I have a right to defend the unrepresented position in a public forum.

 

b) My heart aches for the women and children who are being spiritually abused within this movement, and their stories need to be heard for the sake of others who may be in similar situations.

 

You're a Christian, right? These are the same arguments made against Christianity by SOME people. Take a look...

 

a) the language used to describe a Christian makes it sound as if those who don't hold to that theology are somehow not trusting the HaShem/the Creator/etc, not putting Him first, and otherwise going to hell. Now THAT is judgmental. And I have a right to defend the unrepresented position in a public forum (even if the thread was started as a support to Christians.

 

b) My heart aches for the women and children who are being spiritually abused within Christianity and their stories need to be heard for the sake of others who may be in similar situations.

 

 

 

Now, I had come across the sites you listed before and agree they have a right and should tell their story. However, abuse most likely would have happened by the same perpetrators even if they weren't "quiverful". There are perps that USE various issues and things as a TOOL to assist in their abuse. There are abusers that twist Christianity, Islam, Atheism, and others to back up their abuse. There are those that have used "quiverful" as a tool in their abuse and those that have used birth control as a tool in their abuse...both can be used to manipulate. It does not make Quiverful, Christianity, etc evil or something to abhor.

 

The point is, don't broadbrush and don't attack. No one attacked you. It's a SUPPORT thread. Again...SUPPORT THREAD.

[Myrrh]

I know there are several families here who put their family size in the hands of God, and was wondering who was here.

 

We too believe in quiverfull, but only were able to have 4 living children. So, we are following the fostering/adoption route to continue building our family as God sees fit.

 

So many people have negative things to say, and I was wondering where I could go to meet other like-minded individuals (forum or mail list maybe?). Feel free to PM me.

 

Thank you,

Heather

 

This was the post that started this thread. It implies that those who are not QF are not putting their family size in God's hands and not building their families as God sees fit. There have been more posts after it which continue on in that vein.

 

QF by itself is not abusive, but it is often part of a larger theological context which I mentioned earlier called Patriocentricity. Earlier, I linked to some websites substantiating that, including this one:

 

http://quiveringdaughters.com/About_the_Author.html

 

Also, the original poster said she was wondering where she could go. It wasn't stated that this thread was the place. Stifling dialogue, particularly in a homeschooling forum, seems like the antithesis of what we're here for.

 

I would have stayed away from this thread if the original post said "I believe that my family is personally called not to attempt to limit the size of our family. I would like to meet others who have that same conviction, so I have set up this thread for us to discuss what it's like to practice this way of life."

[Ginevra]

 

Why yes, our quiver is full and we are blessed by our three children...but no, we don't subscribe to the one-verse theology which says that having a full quiver means not being proactive in limiting family size. I find it offensive when people describe "quiver full" as allowing God to decide how many children you have (see the first few posts in this thread), and putting God in control...not just offensive to me, but to our awesome and sovereign Creator. The God I believe in (the one of the Bible) is bigger than any of our choices. Haven't we all heard the stories of children conceived despite the pill, the condom, etc.? I even know several people who had children after having vasectomies (there's a 1 in 1600 chance of it growing back).

 

And to be consistently "quiver full", couples would be obligated to always do the deed during the woman's fertile period every month. Not just whenever they feel like it.

 

I get pretty fired up about this issue because of the abuses it can cause. It is part of the larger hyper-patriarchy movement which has various branches--as has been mentioned by others in this thread, Bill Gothard and ATI is one (I didn't realize the Duggars were part of that), Vision Forum is another, and I believe the Pearls as well. I'm not sure about Doug Wilson but he is part of the patriocentric movement.

 

 

Myrrh, here is a way to perhaps see where QF thinking is coming from, even if you don't agree. There are two beliefs that are central to Christian theology. (At least mainstream Christian theology; I can't speak to every tangential group.)

1.) Every human being is expressly and purposefully created by God;

2.) God's will is always superior to human choices/planning.

 

Therefore, it logically follows that God would never make a child by accident or by default because two fertile people had s*x. I say this as a person who does not know - or is not convinced of - the two points above. I say this is as person who is using b/c.

 

By the logic you are using, we can jump off a building and if it is God's will that we live, He will cause a truck hauling a gigantic trampoline to drive by at just that moment, breaking our fall and preserving our life. :001_smile:

 

If "God is bigger than our choices", then you could throw away the birth control and God would never create another child unless it was in his Sovereign Plan.

 

The Bible is filled with examples of people second-guessing God, sure that He or they made a mistake, or meant something else. It is when they tried to "help" God's plan come to pass that they made a mess of things. (Read about Abraham conceiving Ishmael with Hagar.) True faith is to trust God when it makes no earthly sense. (Coming from someone who does not take this advice! :tongue_smilie:)

 

I know what you mean about certain QF "types" and the whole patriachy obsession. I'm not a fan of that and cannot call myself QF, but I see no reason to be offended that some people believe in such a fashion. It doesn't hurt you particularly for believing differently.

[Impish]

Nice how no one actually addresses any of what I said and instead blacklists me. That is a huge red flag that people feel threatened.

You're blacklisted? Huh. Nobody ever shares lists with me :angry: I don't get flags either, dang it.

Again, I say, my motives for posting were:

 

a) The language used to describe QF makes it sound as if though who don't hold to that theology are somehow not trusting the Lord, not putting him first, and otherwise disobeying the Bible. Now THAT is judgemental. And I have a right to defend the unrepresented position in a public forum.

And the language used by those that don't believe is equally inflammatory. Its pretty simple. Believe it or don't. Regardless of faith, what someone else believes really has nothing in the world to do with YOU. Nobody's saying you have to do anything. That you're so persistant in insisting that QF is wrong, makes me wonder how confident YOU are in your stance. Speaking of protesting too much ;)

And here's the other thing. EVERYONE is judgemental. Nobody ever promised that they weren't. The very thought is ridiculous. We all judge what is right and wrong for us. Someone believing that being QF is trusting the Lord and obeying the Bible has to do with how they live THEIR lives...not yours. You insist on seeing insult where there is none.

b) My heart aches for the women and children who are being spiritually abused within this movement, and their stories need to be heard for the sake of others who may be in similar situations.

Any domestic abuse should be intolerable. Period. There are those that would use and pervert anything and everything to justify their behaviour. Nothing at all new about that. My heart aches for ANY child or adult whose a victim of domestic violence/abuse.

 

I am sure I will get attacked for this but I *do* think that those who take bc pills (in particular) are not trusting in the Lord *in regards to children*. Why else would you take bc pills unless you did *not* want to get pg? And I *do* think they (bc pill users) are not doing what they should because bc pills kill unborn babies. This said, I also believe MANY (if not the majority) who take bc pills have NO IDEA what it does - they just know that it prevents them from having a baby (supposedly) and that it is "completely safe" because that is what our doctors say, sadly enough.

Not everyone is ignorant. Many make informed decisions about their health care. I also believe that God speaks and leads hearts that listen, and not everyone is a) able/ready to hear and b) Called to do the same thing.

Point B) I'm not sure how you could be abused by being encouraged to let the Lord rule your family...however, I can see your point if you are speaking of people telling women that they must have large families (NOT WHAT QF IS, THOUGH).

 

Absolutely :iagree: