Mandatory swine (h1n1) vaccine ??'s

[MomLovesClassics]

I am concerned about forced swine (h1n1) flu vaccines in the fall. I am unclear if they sre safe and effective. Drug companies can now push medicines through at a rapid pace. I do not trust the botched test results. Obama is said to have financial ties to the drug companies that produce the vaccines, not to mention helped create (Avian Act) laws that require their use. Also it appears something was rushed through protecting the vaccine companies should people suffer adverse side effects. Now there seems to be talk that the government can take you to jail if you refuse to take the vaccine. What are the alternatives? How can you avoid these swine flu vaccines???

[theresatwist]

I am concerned about forced swine (h1n1) flu vaccines in the fall. I am unclear if they sre safe and effective. Drug companies can now push medicines through at a rapid pace. I do not trust the botched test results. Obama is said to have financial ties to the drug companies that produce the vaccines, not to mention helped create (Avian Act) laws that require their use. Also it appears something was rushed through protecting the vaccine companies should people suffer adverse side effects. Now there seems to be talk that the government can take you to jail if you refuse to take the vaccine. What are the alternatives? How can you avoid these swine flu vaccines???

 

Can you tell us your source? That sounds like rumor to me.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Could we also have a source regarding vaccines being mandatory? And does mandatory mean moreso than normal vaccinations are?

 

Generally speaking, we're not interested. We do have special circumstances to take in account, but....

[MomLovesClassics]

Well, my concern is that mandatory is above regular vaccines, no exemptions for religious or any other reason. I am wondering if it will come to that. It is said the laws are set up in such a way it can.

[gingersmom]

I have not heard anything about it being mandatory. I actually read that they may not have enough vaccine to go around.

[Pamela H in Texas]

are they coming door to door?

[OHGrandma]

are they coming door to door?

 

Even scarier:

Health and Human Services Secretary (and Bilderberg member) Kathleen Sebelius told the Associated Press on June 16 that she is urging school superintendents around the country to spend the summer preparing for a massive swine flu vaccine this fall and added that schools are being put on notice that they might be turned into factory assembly line shot clinics. “If you think about vaccinating kids, schools are the logical place,†Sebelius said.

 

Will it happen? I don't know, but the polio vaccine was administered in the public school.

[Pretty in Pink]

It would be helpful to have links to back up these claims (to the extent that the vaccines will be mandatory, that the drug companies have special immunity if something goes wrong with the vaccines, that refusing the vaccine would land you in jail, etc).

[A.D.]

Why is that scary? If the need for a mass vaccination does occur, schools are a logical choice.

I fail to see the bugbears under the bed on this one.

[chaik76]

Why is that scary? If the need for a mass vaccination does occur, schools are a logical choice.

I fail to see the bugbears under the bed on this one.

Personally, I don't mind them using schools for the vaccines, if they have gotten permission from each parent to vaccinate each child. The bugbear here (and I'm not honestly worried about it being mandatory at this time) is that the vaccine manufacturer have been authorized to cut corners (I'll try to come back and post the link) and it will most likely not be legally liable for any problems that arise from the vaccine.

 

We personally will probably not get vaccinated...the vaccine will not have time to be tested thoroughly...we just won't know if there are going to be side effects right away.

 

Not all people vaccinate, so if it did become mandatory that would be a huge problem for many.

[Pamela H in Texas]

A.D.

 

Can safety (esp long term) be assured if a vaccine has been developed and "tested" within 6months time? I just can't believe so.

 

However, if this flu follows the paths of other major flus, it will be mighty dangerous this fall. I think coming up with a vaccine is good. I don't even disagree with giving them out at school.

 

But I DO have an issue with it being more mandatory than any other vaccination. I want the choice to decide whether or not my children and I will be vaccinated.

[Melissa in Australia]

I think the vaccine will be too late here in Australia. just about everyone I know has got a family member with suspect swine flue. 3 of my family have had a suspect dose. half of the local town has it. they are no longer testing people for it, just assuming that most of the flue cases are swine flue. so far there have only been 31 deaths in Australia. and about 100 in hospital seriously ill, 30 or something of those are on life support, heart/ lung machines, mostly young . they are predicting about 6000 deaths in Australia by the end of the flue season. the usual amount of flue deaths in flue season is 2000 to 3000.

[gardening momma]

From what I understand, the swine flu isn't any more dangerous than other forms of the flu...it's just the latest one out, and if someone has other underlying health issues, any type of flu can be dangerous for them. But the average healthy person will recover from swine flu like any other flu. They'll be miserable, yes, but unlikely to die. I doubt the vaccine will be mandatory.

[Kathy in MD]

So far the only backing for the original post mentioned is that the schools may be used as vacination sites. No one has given any sources for making it mandatory, or jail time or banning possible exceptions.

 

I don't see the original post as being likely. For starters, many are allergic to eggs and recieving the flu vaccine could be fatal. There are also other health reasons for not recieving the flu vaccine.

 

It sounds to me that a gov't official made a statement and the rumor mill went to work.

[yslek]

I found this very alarmist article: http://www.infowars.com/journalist-fired-over-flu-pandemic-lawsuit/

 

If you click on the hyper-link for " Bioterrorism Evidence", a 134-page report pops up with some of the info the OP posted. Don't know if this is what she was referring to, though. Just what I found. :)

[Perry]

I am concerned about forced swine (h1n1) flu vaccines in the fall. I am unclear if they sre safe and effective. Drug companies can now push medicines through at a rapid pace. I do not trust the botched test results. Obama is said to have financial ties to the drug companies that produce the vaccines, not to mention helped create (Avian Act) laws that require their use. Also it appears something was rushed through protecting the vaccine companies should people suffer adverse side effects. Now there seems to be talk that the government can take you to jail if you refuse to take the vaccine. What are the alternatives? How can you avoid these swine flu vaccines???

 

I can address a few of your questions.

 

First, there are no current plans to make the vaccine mandatory. There is no federal legislation (that I know of) that makes this legal. There may be local and state laws that would allow mandatory vaccination, but even that isn't clear. From HHS

6. Legal preparedness

State and local health departments should ensure that appropriate legal authorities are in place to facilitate implementation of plans for distributing pandemic influenza vaccines. Health departments might undertake these legal preparedness steps:

 

 

• Ensure that plans for distribution of vaccines are reviewed by appropriate legal authorities.

• Determine whether state and local laws allow non-licensed volunteers or healthcare workers from other jurisdictions to administer influenza vaccines.

• Work with professional organizations and unions to consider options for emergency performance of tasks outside of standard job descriptions.

• Determine whether state and local laws allow mandatory vaccination to protect the public health, if needed.

 

 

In reality, it is unlikely that there will be enough doses for everyone anyway, so they aren't likely to get too wound up when people refuse.

 

 

If the case fatality rate is very high, I believe there may be an attempt to require vaccination in some populations (nursing home patients, prisons). Also, I would not be surprised to see mandatory vaccination of health care workers. Of course, if HCW were to refuse, they would not be forced, although they may lose their jobs. Mass vaccination in schools is being considered. They cannot vaccinate your child without parent/guardian consent.

 

Vaccine safety: The vaccine is being fast tracked so it will be available by this fall in the Northern Hemisphere. Safety studies won't be completed by that time. If complete safety studies were done, there is no way the vaccine would be available until after the flu season is over. Since the strain is related to the human H1N1 that has been circulating in people for 30 years, it is believed that there is adequate experience with similar vaccines to go ahead with fast tracking. With the 1976 swine flu vaccine, the main safety concern was a possible excess of Guillain Barre Syndrome, a neurological disorder. AFAIK, there has never been a good explanation of why that occurred, or even if it was truly associated with the vaccine. There had not been good reliable data prior to 1976 on GBS, so when there were reports of GBS after the vaccine, there weren't good statistics to make comparisons. It is possible that the rates really weren't higher, but it appeared higher because people were actively looking for it and reporting it more often. The available information suggests that the vaccine was associated with some cases of GBS. The data is better now, so if there is an increase in GBS with the new vaccine it should be determined quickly. CDC has extensive plans to monitor safety and adverse events, and there are many different systems being put in to place to collect data and do surveillance.

 

 

I don't know enough about the liability issue to say much, except that the vaccine companies most likely would have refused to produce the vaccine if they hadn't been protected from lawsuits.

 

 

 

Personally, I won't be first in line, nor will my kids. We will be waiting a short while to see how things are developing. If it is clear that the flu is very serious with high case fatality rates, we'll take the small risk of the vaccine, because we may run out of it quickly. If it's looking like a routine flu, we'll wait awhile longer.

 

Also, quarantine has been mentioned elsewhere. We've had quarantine laws for years, but influenza was recently added to the list of diseases that qualify for possible quarantine. Quarantines aren't used often, and are most often employed when infected people enter the country. It doesn't work very well unless it is for one or a very few individuals and no one else has the illness. It really doesn't work well for influenza, and wouldn't be helpful at all at this point. I realize that China is quarantining people but it's being done out of fear and isn't really doing any good. Revere had a good post about quarantine at Effect Measure a while back.

[Karen in CO]

Personally, I won't be first in line, nor will my kids. We will be waiting a short while to see how things are developing. If it is clear that the flu is very serious with high case fatality rates, we'll take the small risk of the vaccine, because we may run out of it quickly. If it's looking like a routine flu, we'll wait awhile longer.

 

 

Would feel the same if you had asthma? I've read several things about the death rate being higher, as is usually the case, in people with asthma. I quit flu vaccines years ago because of one terrible flu season in which I had three confirmed cases even though I had the vaccine, and I haven't had either since. The late night international news is starting to make me reconsider. Would asthma cause you to consider the vaccine more?

[Perry]

Yes, anything that increased the risk of flu complications would make me more likely to vaccinate earlier.

 

I should have mentioned that the risk of GBS with the 1976 swine flu vaccine was something like 1/100,000. So even if this vaccine is associated with GBS, the risk is very, very low.

 

I don't know what the plan is if there appears to be an elevated risk of GBS with this vaccine. I haven't heard if there is a protocol or they're taking a wait and see approach. I imagine it will depend on the severity of the flu. If the flu is really awful, people will accept a higher risk with the vaccine.

[Blueridge]

Here are several interesting articles that I received recently in a health newsletter:

 

http://www.swineflu.org/forum_posts.asp?TID=24645

 

http://globalhealth.kff.org/Daily-Reports/2009/July/10/GH-071009-Swine-Flu.aspx

 

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/search/content/business/epaper/2009/07/10/0711swineflu.html

[Perry]

Here are several interesting articles that I received recently in a health newsletter:

 

http://www.swineflu.org/forum_posts.asp?TID=24645

 

http://globalhealth.kff.org/Daily-Reports/2009/July/10/GH-071009-Swine-Flu.aspx

 

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/search/content/business/epaper/2009/07/10/0711swineflu.html

 

 

Here is an article about mandatory vaccines. According to this article, the first public mandatory vaccination law was enacted in 1809, so this isn't anything new.

 

We have had mandatory school vaccines for many years. All states have medical exemptions and almost all (except WV, I believe) have religious/other exemptions.

 

I don't know how often this law is actually used. I'll try to find out and post later.

[Perry]

I forgot to mention something else--

Several people voiced concern about vaccinating children without consent. I have said before that children can't be vaccinated without consent. However, it IS in the realm of possibility that the influenza vaccine could become a mandatory school vaccine. Consent is still required, but if it is refused, they do have the legal right not to allow your child to attend school.

And like I said, there are exemptions.

 

I don't have any idea what happens under martial law.

[Orthodox6]

Perry, thank you for sharing helpful, current information. (I don't know or remember -- are you a physician, PA, or a nurse ?)

 

When I hear words of "mandatory" anything, I default to assuming it is Internet rumour.

[Perry]

Perry, thank you for sharing helpful, current information. (I don't know or remember -- are you a physician, PA, or a nurse ?)

 

Infectious disease epidemiology- my research was on swine and avian influenza

[Orthodox6]

Are you still active in the field ?

 

One summer, during college, I worked for an office in Houston -- I'm thinking it was related to WHO; however, it has been decades now, and maybe they didn't have a field office there? At any rate, people there had ties to WHO, and I felt drawn to consider an M.PH. for a bit.

 

Infectious disease epidemiology- my research was on swine and avian influenza

[Julie in Austin]

Infectious disease epidemiology- my research was on swine and avian influenza

 

Can I thank you for your numerous thoughtful comments on swine flu? It is really nice to have someone with expertise who is willing to comment.

[Karen sn]

Can I thank you for your numerous thoughtful comments on swine flu? It is really nice to have someone with expertise who is willing to comment.

 

Yes. In the Spring when my very paranoid, glued to the all day news station friend was causing a ruckus and more paranoia over this - I calmly explained to him what you told us. Then he rudely insulted "some novice homeschooler" versus the media and the CDC. A few days later he had to eat crow and admit you were right.

 

I tried to tell him that most homeschool parents are quite educated and many had serious professions before having kids.

 

So thanks, Perry, for all the info.

You kept my household from the paranoia and we understood it was better to be exposed in the Spring than in the Fall.

You maybe even saved some lives around the globe!

[Perry]

Yes. In the Spring when my very paranoid, glued to the all day news station friend was causing a ruckus and more paranoia over this - I calmly explained to him what you told us. Then he rudely insulted "some novice homeschooler" versus the media and the CDC. A few days later he had to eat crow and admit you were right.

 

 

 

That's sort of funny because back in April I was contacted by several national media organizations and quoted (unnatributed) several times on CNN. HA!

Edited July 20, 2009 by Perry

[Perry]

That didn't make any sense. I should have explained that I have several publications that made some news over the past few years, regarding swine and avian flu. When the swine flu began this spring, many flu researchers were contacted by news organizations.

[KayT]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Readiness_and_Emergency_Preparedness_Act

 

"Vaccine manufacturers lobbied for the legislation, which would effectively preempt state vaccine safety laws in the case of an emergency declaration by HHS, by making clear they would not produce new vaccines unless the legislation was enacted."

 

 

I heard them talking about this a week or so ago on our local news. I don't remember much but I am guessing that pan-flu has caused the HHS to declare an emergency which has given the vaccine makers immunity...no pun intended.

 

Perry...do you have any thought on the immunologic adjuvants that may be used in these vaccines? I read somewhere about those giving the shots being able to have 10 vials of vaccine and 10 vials of adjuvants and that could be mixed by those giving the shots.

 

I don't know much about them but a big red flag goes up in my head every time I read about them!

[Perry]

Perry...do you have any thought on the immunologic adjuvants that may be used in these vaccines? I read somewhere about those giving the shots being able to have 10 vials of vaccine and 10 vials of adjuvants and that could be mixed by those giving the shots.

 

I don't know much about them but a big red flag goes up in my head every time I read about them!

 

I really don't know much about the adjuvants. Preliminary studies are suggesting the vaccine isn't "strong" enough to evoke a good immune response, so there is discussion of giving two doses or using adjuvants. Most of the adjuvants are proprietary so very little is known about them. Certainly using adjuvants increases the possibility of side effects, and if they're needed it may delay things, since they'll try to get additional safety data before licensing. Most vax preparations are premixed, but I believe one company is preparing separate vials for mixing at the site of administration. That shouldn't be a problem for clinics, but sounds like a logistical PITA for mass vax campaigns, like in schools.

 

I don't know what the advantage of separate vials would be. I can only think of disadvantages.

[momtotkbb]

Perry --

 

I appreciate your perspective on this issue. Can I ask ---you mention taking a wait and see approach to vaccinating yourself and dc. You also note that certain medical issues like Asthma would possibly make you more quick to vaccinate. If vaccinations weren't a possibility due to previous severe allergic reactions (as in respiratory distress) would you then look at not taking your dc out to events like co-ops, gym classes, etc?

 

I'm having a hard time figuring out what the normal would be here. My little guy just turned 6 and has severe asthma ---it is triggered most by simple colds, viruses, allergies and of course things in the air. However, he also has severe allergic reactions which lead to asthma attacks for things like coloring/flavorings in meds ---he has had two reactions to flu vaccines (the first they thought was a fluke) the second was so severe they knew it wasn't a fluke, he's allergic to Allegra, to Zyrtec, to generic prednisone, etc. This past year was the first time we have attended a co-op in years and I also let him take some sports classes ----we spent a large part of the school year sick - which in our house means 1 trip to ER, numerous office visits, oral prednisone for 3-10 days 7 times from Sept - May, along w/ reg meds. So as dh and I discussed this last night I'm wondering if we should stay home ---or go ahead and plan to participate but be willing to drop things if the flu season is bad. He thinks we just need to "toughen" the little guys immunity by letting him be out with the general population. What would your thoughts be?

[newbie]

Perry,

 

I was just about to ask if you were going to be first in line, but you answered my question. Good to know.

 

I wish more monies would be facilitated towards prevention, so far we have seven deaths in San Diego and no extra measures are being taken. For example, schools are still accepting sick kids. My dn's daycare takes him everyday and he has a horrible cough. Mostly sis's fault, on top of that she sends him to a waterpark.

 

People need to get off the mindset of cureall vaccine and focus on prevention and everyday care.

 

When they closed down Mexico city, nbrs decreased rapidly. Case in point.

[Perry]

Perry,

 

I was just about to ask if you were going to be first in line, but you answered my question. Good to know.

 

I wish more monies would be facilitated towards prevention, so far we have seven deaths in San Diego and no extra measures are being taken. For example, schools are still accepting sick kids. My dn's daycare takes him everyday and he has a horrible cough. Mostly sis's fault, on top of that she sends him to a waterpark.

 

People need to get off the mindset of cureall vaccine and focus on prevention and everyday care.

 

When they closed down Mexico city, nbrs decreased rapidly. Case in point.

 

I don't want to give the impression that I think the vaccine is a bad thing. I am cautious by nature, of everything, so it's just my personality to hang back a little and see where things are headed. We won't be first in line, but we won't be far behind. It's possible the flu will start off mild and then turn worse, and by then the vaccine may be gone. The most recent prediction I heard was 60-80 million doses (US) for the fall. If 2 doses are required, we are looking at 30-40 million people - about 10-15% of the population. Most vaccine is produced in Europe, not the US. So it may end up being a rare and valuable commodity.

 

My point is, we won't wait long.

 

I understand and agree with you about prevention. Handwashing, social distancing, sneezing and coughing into your sleeve are all helpful and important. If you (the generic "you") are sick, stay home. If the flu has a high case fatality rate, we may very well see some attempts at shutting down of public places.

 

However, I would include vaccination as a very important preventive measure.

[Perry]

:grouphug:

 

I'm sorry. I wish I had some concrete answers for you, but I don't. Is your son allergic to eggs? There is some new technology using human and caterpillar cells instead of eggs to grow the virus, and those might be an option for him. There may be other options for vaccine too, but you should discuss those with his doctor.

 

It's so hard to know what to do. We can't lock them in a closet (tempting, sometimes) but there is no question that social distancing decreases rates of infection. Not everyone who gets the vaccine will get full immunity from it, so even vaccinated people would benefit from considering themselves susceptible and act accordingly. Probably some vaccinated people will get full immunity, most partial immunity, and some none. But you don't have any way of knowing which category you're in.

 

My plan is to wait and see. It may turn out not to be any worse than seasonal flu, and we will carry on as usual. If it's severe, we will limit activities and avoid crowds when it's in full swing. I don't know how draconian I'll get. It will depend on the severity of the disease.

[Perry]

Are you still active in the field ?

 

Only peripherally, right now. That will probably change this fall.

 

 

One summer, during college, I worked for an office in Houston -- I'm thinking it was related to WHO; however, it has been decades now, and maybe they didn't have a field office there? At any rate, people there had ties to WHO, and I felt drawn to consider an M.PH. for a bit.

 

I hope you are still considering it. It's a great field!

[lovetobehome]

I am alarmed by the recent events, has anyone looked at this video and info?

http://www.nvic.org/NVIC-Vaccine-News/June-2009/Swine-Flu-Vaccine--Will-We-Have-A-Choice--by-Barba.aspx

 

Here is a small section, relating to Massachusetts enacting a law which allows state officials to enter our homes with out consent...and to quarantine or investigate individuals....

 

"In some states, like Massachusetts, public health doctors have persuaded legislators to quickly pass pandemic influenza legislation that will allow state officials to enter the homes and businesses without the approval of occupants; to investigate and quarantine individuals without their consent; to require licensed health care providers to give citizens vaccines and to ban the free assembly of citizens in the state"

 

And I also came across this letter and read about Baxter on Bloomberg news...

It is a letter meant to be sent to our representatives, I am researching it further...just wondered if anyone else has done the same and come up with some answers. I had never heard of Baxter before, but I am just a mom, :-) Maybe the info here is inaccurate, I really don't know, but I am certainly reading more now.

Here is the letter:

 

"It has been brought to my attention that Baxter International, a major multi-national pharmaceutical company which has now received contracts from nations all around the world to produce and distribute a new swine flu (H1N1) vaccine, is under suspicion for the following reasons:

 

1- In February, 2009, Baxter's Austrian branch sent batches of what was supposed to be human influenza (H3N2) vaccine to 18 different European countries. These countries were to use these vaccine samples to produce human flu vaccines for their populations. One country, the Czech Republic, tested these batches and found them to be contaminated with live Avian inflenza virus (H5N1 - Bird flu). Had this vaccine been administered to people prior to this contamination being discovered, it could have caused a deadly pandemic.

 

2- Baxter had been given stocks of Avian inflenza virus by the US government so it could work on producing a vaccine against any future outbreak of this disease. This virus was provided to them under the condition that they would adhere to the required Biosafety Level 3 strict controls. Had these controls been followed, this sort of contamination would have been impossible. There are only 2 conclusions one can draw from the fact that this contamination event took place. Either:

Baxter were incredibly careless with their procedures causing an accidental contamination which then, incredibly, was allowed to get out into millions of doses of vaccine before anyone noticed; or

 

The contamination was intentional and it was only a matter of luck and good due diligence on the part of the Czech officials that this was caught before anyone received the contaminated vaccine lots.

 

3- The outbreak of Swine Flu (H1N1) which has led the World Health Organisation (WHO) to declare the highest possible level of pandemic awareness - Level 6 - began in Mexico City - right near a Baxter Labs facility which was working on experimental flu vaccine. This might be no more than a coincidence were it not for the fact that on August 28, 2008, Baxter Labs filed for a patent (# US20090060950A1) on H1N1 virus - almost a full year before this outbreak occurred or H1N1 had ever been heard of! This patent demonstrates that Baxter was working on a vaccine which would have been composed of several different types of viruses including human, pig, dog, horse and avian flu. Is it too much to expect that the company which sent out contaminated flu vaccines in February could not have done exactly the same thing several months later in May?

 

The New Zealand Minister of Health, the Hon Tony Ryall, has asked Ministry of Health officials to urgently advise him on issues raised about a swine flu vaccine produced by Baxter International Inc. There is grave concern that due to the past record of contamination and errors made by Baxter Labs, none of their vaccines can be trusted.

 

As a concerned citizen, I agree that there is cause to question Baxter's products and hope that you will also see that there are very serious outcomes possible if a pharmaceutical company, which has been given a contract to make vaccines which will protect health, instead distributes vaccines which spread disease and possibly, even cause death.

 

It is my will that you do everything within your power to call for a public and transparent investigation of this situation and that any vaccines produced by Baxter International should be thoroughly examined by an independent laboratory for any evidence of contamination with adventitious viruses or bacteria and that the results of this investigation be made public as a matter of urgency."

 

Sounds pretty awful, I hope this stuff isn't true!

Edited July 27, 2009 by lovetobehome