Another question about length of day

[swellmomma]

Last night I was mapping out our schedules for next year giving each subject area a rough time frame per day to figure out length of day. In addition to the main subjects I also included music practice, handicrafts, home ec, art, foreign languages(3) etc. From the looks of it my big kids will have 10 hour days which is too much isn't it. I know that if they were in school they would 7 hours, plus homework plus music practice so would that still come out to 10ish hours?

 

I was thinking of using a workbox system following a loop to make sure I covered everything over the week in the boxes. Would this reduce the length of time per day do you think? How many hours per day including things like music practice should the middle grades be doing (specifically grade 5)?

[Stacy in NJ]

Ten hours is too much; seven hours is too much.

 

Are you doing every subject every day?

 

My dss are rising 5th and 7th graders. We plan on working roughly from 9:30 to 2:30 daily with short 5-10 minute breaks and a 30 minute lunch. They'll have probably an hour of homework in the evening.

[swellmomma]

.Not everything everyday, but somethings are do to the nature of the programs we are using (Sonlight history, and science), math 4 days a week, Language arts daily, we do have 3 foreign languages next year (french, latin and greek), art is once a week, music practice daily, music appreciation/composer study twice a week, handicrafts twice a week, health twice a week(we have to do this one), drama once a week unless they are practicing for an upcoming play, logic 4 days per week, PE daily, Bible program daily, home ec once per week, typing 3 times per week, I think that is everything. I had also scheduled reading time in.

 

It may end up being that I have planned out a larger block of time per subject than we will actually need. And I agree that 10 hours is too much, but I don't see us dropping subjects at all, especially the ones that we are aligned with the province due to regulations.(Language arts, health, PE, religion, art, music, drama, and french).

 

I think If I counted only actual content areas and left out reading time, music practice, handicrafts and PE from our daily schedule(still do them but not blocked in kwim) it works out more like 7.5 hours a day of academics with another 2.5 hours of extras, plus outside lessons. Is 7.5 hours for a 10 & 11 yr old too much academics? Where can I prune the schedule a bit without losing content?

Edited July 8, 2009 by swellmomma

[MamaAkins]

.Not everything everyday, but somethings are do to the nature of the programs we are using (Sonlight history, and science), math 4 days a week, Language arts daily, we do have 3 foreign languages next year (french, latin and greek), art is once a week, music practice daily, music appreciation/composer study twice a week, handicrafts twice a week, health twice a week(we have to do this one), drama once a week unless they are practicing for an upcoming play, logic 4 days per week, PE daily, Bible program daily, home ec once per week, typing 3 times per week, I think that is everything. I had also scheduled reading time in.

 

It may end up being that I have planned out a larger block of time per subject than we will actually need. And I agree that 10 hours is too much, but I don't see us dropping subjects at all, especially the ones that we are aligned with the province due to regulations.(Language arts, health, PE, religion, art, music, drama, and french).

 

I think If I counted only actual content areas and left out reading time, music practice, handicrafts and PE from our daily schedule(still do them but not blocked in kwim) it works out more like 7.5 hours a day of academics with another 2.5 hours of extras, plus outside lessons. Is 7.5 hours for a 10 & 11 yr old too much academics? Where can I prune the schedule a bit without losing content?

 

That is A LOT to cover with any child, but especially at those ages. Do you need to do all 3 foreign languages at one time? Could you cut 1 or 2 of those? Or do them on a semester basis? Could you lessen the logic curriculum to once or twice per week? In my opinion, you're setting yourself and your children up for burnout with that amount of work.

[swellmomma]

Logic yes I could cut it down to 2 days. It is only puzzles like logic links, card games like set etc, not an actual curric at this point.

 

Foreign language gets tricky we have to do french this year do to the way we registered for the fall, latin I want them to do, and greek they begged to do. They want to do Mandarin too but I already said no to that one, instead they are learning it informally from a family friend. I was thinking of having them scheduled to do 30 minutes of each per day which really isn't a lot of each one, but combined means 1.5 hours a day of foreign language.

[Deb in NZ]

she covered much of what you aim to cover, but in a much shorter day. Google Charlotte Mason schedules & you should come up with a few samples.

 

HTH,

[swellmomma]

she covered much of what you aim to cover, but in a much shorter day. Google Charlotte Mason schedules & you should come up with a few samples.

 

HTH,

 

 

Thank you, I will go and google that and see what I can come up with.

[Laura Corin]

My twelve year old does 9-5, including a half hour break and one hour for lunch. That covers all subjects, running and music practice, but not assigned reading.

 

My nine year old also has a 9-5 schedule, but he normally covers his list in the first three days of the week, so spends Thursday on his own projects (reading, writing stories, drawing), then we do fun school all together on Friday morning and he has a riding lesson on Friday afternoon.

 

You can get a vague idea of our curriculum from my siggy. The schedule in the siggy is out of date - they both manage their own timetables these days.

 

Laura

Edited July 8, 2009 by Laura Corin

[8filltheheart]

Last night I was mapping out our schedules for next year giving each subject area a rough time frame per day to figure out length of day. In addition to the main subjects I also included music practice, handicrafts, home ec, art, foreign languages(3) etc. From the looks of it my big kids will have 10 hour days which is too much isn't it. I know that if they were in school they would 7 hours, plus homework plus music practice so would that still come out to 10ish hours?

 

I was thinking of using a workbox system following a loop to make sure I covered everything over the week in the boxes. Would this reduce the length of time per day do you think? How many hours per day including things like music practice should the middle grades be doing (specifically grade 5)?

 

I allow approximately 1 hr per grade level for academics until 6th grade or so. 6th-8th is approx 6-7 hrs per day, high school approx 7-9 hrs per day. So, with music practice, definitely under 6 hrs total for a 5th grader.

 

School days at the ps here are 6 hrs and 20 mins which includes lunch, etc. Homework target "times" are typically 15 mins per grade level max, so the maximum homework typically for a 5th grader would be only a little over an hr.

As a homeschooler, I don't factor in "homework time" b/c our instruction and work are all rolled into one. Homework is really the tool of public schools to deal with the fact that teachers are attempting to teach to multiple ability levels for every subject which allows little application time in the classroom.

 

One on one teaching is far more efficient than classroom instruction and there isn't the same amt of "time loss." Since you really like what you have selected to teach, perhaps looking at the time commitment to each subject is where you could reduce your day lengths or consider an alternating day schedule.

 

My rising 5th grader is taking both French and Latin this yr. It will be her 3rd yr of French and her 2nd of Latin. We do it on an alternating schedule of MWF T/H.

 

Hope you find a balance. :001_smile:

[Terabith]

Do you have to do each language (French, Latin, and Greek) daily? What are you using for Greek? If the Greek is at their request, could you test the waters of their interest with something like Hey, Andrew? I don't think that would require a lot of time. Could you alternate French and Latin?

 

If you aren't using a logic curriculum, but are using games and such, could you reduce that to once or twice a week? Alternatively, could logic be integrated into "off times," like vacations or summer or Saturdays? I could see a 20-30 minute game time being an easy add-in during those times that doesn't feel too schoolish.

 

What are you using for the weekly drama? Is there a curriculum or syllabus for that that is given by the province, or is it just mandated that you cover it? If they are in a play or two a year, why wouldn't that cover it? Or can you call playing pretend with their siblings or family charades games drama?

 

What are you doing for handicrafts and home ec? How long are you allotting for composer study? Does health have to be twice a week or could it be once? Could you minimize any of the language arts? (For instance, if you are doing both spelling and vocab, could you combine?)

[kwg]

I had to look up "health lessons" b/c I was not really sure what that was :tongue_smilie:...but briefly the topics were things like making good food choices, not being a couch potato, no to drugs, etc. Isn't that just living in a family? Maybe it is me but I am constantly explaining why they can not eat that and have to eat this, kicking them outside for fresh air and exercise, reminding about self care.

[swellmomma]

I allow approximately 1 hr per grade level for academics until 6th grade or so. 6th-8th is approx 6-7 hrs per day, high school approx 7-9 hrs per day. So, with music practice, definitely under 6 hrs total for a 5th grader.

 

School days at the ps here are 6 hrs and 20 mins which includes lunch, etc. Homework target "times" are typically 15 mins per grade level max, so the maximum homework typically for a 5th grader would be only a little over an hr.

As a homeschooler, I don't factor in "homework time" b/c our instruction and work are all rolled into one. Homework is really the tool of public schools to deal with the fact that teachers are attempting to teach to multiple ability levels for every subject which allows little application time in the classroom.

 

One on one teaching is far more efficient than classroom instruction and there isn't the same amt of "time loss." Since you really like what you have selected to teach, perhaps looking at the time commitment to each subject is where you could reduce your day lengths or consider an alternating day schedule.

 

My rising 5th grader is taking both French and Latin this yr. It will be her 3rd yr of French and her 2nd of Latin. We do it on an alternating schedule of MWF T/H.

 

Hope you find a balance. :001_smile:

 

Thanks for the ideas. Out here school is around 6.3 hours with a 30 minute lunch break. WHen the kids were in ps before, recess was eliminated at their school and they had 3-5 hours of homework per night and they were only in grade 1 and 2. DD usually had 5 hours because she did hardly anything in class at all. So I was thinking in those terms rather than the average ps.

 

Do you find that by alternating the days you do french and latin that her progress is slowed down because she is not reviewing the vocab etc daily?

[swellmomma]

Do you have to do each language (French, Latin, and Greek) daily? What are you using for Greek? If the Greek is at their request, could you test the waters of their interest with something like Hey, Andrew? I don't think that would require a lot of time. Could you alternate French and Latin?

 

If you aren't using a logic curriculum, but are using games and such, could you reduce that to once or twice a week? Alternatively, could logic be integrated into "off times," like vacations or summer or Saturdays? I could see a 20-30 minute game time being an easy add-in during those times that doesn't feel too schoolish.

 

What are you using for the weekly drama? Is there a curriculum or syllabus for that that is given by the province, or is it just mandated that you cover it? If they are in a play or two a year, why wouldn't that cover it? Or can you call playing pretend with their siblings or family charades games drama?

 

What are you doing for handicrafts and home ec? How long are you allotting for composer study? Does health have to be twice a week or could it be once? Could you minimize any of the language arts? (For instance, if you are doing both spelling and vocab, could you combine?)

 

 

For Greek I plan on using Hey Andrew. I am worried that if I alternate the foreign languages they will have more difficulty learning them due to not practicing the vocab daily. I will consider this further though as an option.

 

Logic yes I can get that down to twice a week. Saturdays are pretty busy already without adding in more lessons, but perhaps moving the games from logic in on Saturdays and cutting down to 1 weekday could be possible.

 

Drama is a combination of things. They will be participating in a drama class outside the home once a week, but need to practice their lines. As well in order to meet the provincial requirements they have to participate in things like puppetshows, improv, etc so we will be taking 30 minutes or so once a week to do these things.

 

For homeEc we are using pearables home ec for homeschoolers. ANd for handicrafts it is a chance for them to work on projects in their crochet, sewing, beading, woodwork etc. Without having time scheduled these things never get done. Composer study I was planning on 30 minutes per week to read about a composer, listen to music selections etc.

 

Health is twice a week because then I can cut it down to 20-30 minutes each time and spread it out a bit. To answer the question of the next poster, normally yes health can be combined in normal living, but the province has stipulations of what has to be covered in a year, and we have to follow that due to the way we are registered, which means we have to cover nutrition, exercise, safety, sexuality etc using an approved curriculum.

 

Language arts is a tricky one, I could alternate which days we do grammar and writing rather than doing both every day. We are using R&S for grammar, meaningful composition for writing, copywork and cursive practice for penmanship, ds is using swo for spelling and dd is going to use AAS, both use MCP word study to be followed by wordly wise when they finish the current book, plus lit study/comprehension of the readers in core 3 and 100. I did factor in their assigned reading into our language arts time which extends that a bit. Perhaps if I alternate spelling and vocab, and then grammar and writing, my days will be cut much shorter.

 

To clarify for anyone else reading. In alberta there is 3 ways to register, each one offers a different amount of funding to [parents. I needed increased funding this year compared to prior years as I am changing styles. As a result I registered to do some of my courses following the provincial curriculum, which means I have to teach my kids the same concepts/topics as are taught in the gr 5 public school classrooms in this province using approved curriculum. The rest of the subjects are of my choosing which gives more freedom. The problem lies in the fact I wanted the funding without changing my core program too much, so of the 4 main subjects only Language arts is aligned, the rest are electives, which means though I have to fit them all in to make sure we cover all the concepts/topics. This makes scheduling more challenging than it has ever been before.

[8filltheheart]

Thanks for the ideas. Out here school is around 6.3 hours with a 30 minute lunch break. WHen the kids were in ps before, recess was eliminated at their school and they had 3-5 hours of homework per night and they were only in grade 1 and 2. DD usually had 5 hours because she did hardly anything in class at all. So I was thinking in those terms rather than the average ps.

 

Do you find that by alternating the days you do french and latin that her progress is slowed down because she is not reviewing the vocab etc daily?

 

I guess the question from my perspective is slowed down compared to what? If she were only doing one language, yes, she would probably progress faster. But, the fact that she is doing 2 and is only 10 means from my perspective that she is automatically ahead. ;)

 

I am glad she is learning them, but I wouldn't have her do them at the expense of her childhood. She is first and foremost a 10 yr old. Things that aren't done now can be done later. There are lots of subjects I think would be wonderful to study but there simply not enough hrs in the day and they get dropped.

 

Philosophically, my view of education may be radically different from your own. Each family has to work that out for themselves. I do not view education as list of subjects to get checked off. Nor do I want to do school at home. Our philosophy is one of a living education. Even with a need to complete an approved curriculum, I would figure out a way to do accomplish those objects through interaction vs. scheduled instruction unless I had to actually turn in the assignments to someone like a charter school. (It didn't sound like that was the case. It sounds like you simply need to meet the objectives not turn in specific assignments.)

 

One way to do that is to teach across curriculum........make subjects do double duty. Writing is from history or science, not just a separate subject. Vocabulary is from subjects already being done. Reading ties into history or science. Classical music can be played in the background during the school day. Play one composer's CD for a couple of weeks before introducing a new one.

 

I hope you find a way to accomplish all of your objectives without having school become the dominating factor in your daily schedule. I would worry that you and your children would face burn out by trying to maintain that type of schedule daily. You are describing more hrs than a typical high schooler's day.

Edited July 9, 2009 by 8FillTheHeart

[swellmomma]

I would worry that you and your children would face burn out by trying to maintain that type of schedule daily. You are describing more hrs than a typical high schooler's day.

 

That is definitely something I do not want. I do not want to burn myself or the children out. And I don't want to make school take over their childhood. But at the same time I want to fit all of this in. Some of our work does have tobe submitted, but most of it does not. In things like PE we have to keep a log showing what activity they did each day and showing which categories it fits into, Language arts they have to submit written assignments, Drama requires documentation showing what they have done, where as health is done showing work samples or test marks. How we prove we covered the concepts/topics is done differently depending on the actual course being done(and the school board itself to some extent). So I can integrate some things into the bigger picture, but some things have to done seperating to have concrete proof to show completion kwim.

[Laura Corin]

 

Do you find that by alternating the days you do french and latin that her progress is slowed down because she is not reviewing the vocab etc daily?

 

We do French three times a week and Latin twice a week (Calvin also does vocab review for each for about five minutes each day). Calvin will not finish his Latin book in a year, but should get through French. Hobbes needs more review, being younger, so will not get through French.

 

I know that in a school they would not be getting anywhere near the level of language that they are at home, so I'm happy that they are getting an excellent language education.

 

Laura

[LanaTron]

. Where can I prune the schedule a bit without losing content?

 

Here's what I'm understanding you to say are the courses that you have to do to meet requirements under your home school agreement:

 

Lang arts

health

PE

religion

art

music

drama

french

 

And here are the things that can be flexible:

 

math

history

science

latin

greek

handicrafts

logic

home ec

typing

reading time

 

So, math and reading time, IMO, should be done daily.

 

I would drop Latin, waiting until a time when the schedule is not so tight. Since your dc will already be studying one ancient and one modern language, Latin just isn't necessary on top of that in the 5th grade. OR alternate Latin with Greek, doing each 2 days/week. The days that you are not doing one lang, do some type of short (5 minutes) drill of vocabulary or paradigms. So, M/W do Latin and 5 minute greek drill; T/Th do Greek and Latin drill.

 

You could definitely alternate handicrafts and home ec by week, or by semester/term.

 

You could alternate typing and logic week by week.

 

Your ideas for alternating the language arts subjects are good, too.

 

Good luck.

[LivingUnderGrace]

I think that is too much. My 5th grader will do school from 8:30 - 12:30

and then music practice for 20 mins per afternoon.

 

Even my 8th and 9th graders would not do 10 hours per day. ;)

[Melabella]

I think that is too much. My 5th grader will do school from 8:30 - 12:30

and then music practice for 20 mins per afternoon.

 

Even my 8th and 9th graders would not do 10 hours per day. ;)

 

Really? Maybe my child works very slowly, but I just don't see how it's possible to do even the basic subjects, at that age, in four hours a day.

 

Would you mind sharing the subjects you do and the amount of time allotted for each?

[Deb in NZ]

but I don't count PE, music, art, literature, etc. as part of our "schooltime." My boys will often put in 4+ hours training (gymnastics, hockey, sailing, etc.) after "school" is done + music practice & literaure reading at bedtime. PS in NZ is 9:00-3:00 with 30 minutes for morning tea break & 60 minutes for lunch break. I aim for about 4-5 hours, figuring that we accompllish much more in that time then they would in PS as we don't have wasted time.

 

JMHO,

[Melabella]

Wow! Can I go to school in New Zealand? 1.5 hrs for snack/lunch break is amazing. In our school district, school is from 7:45am - 2:45 pm with a 25 minute (silent) lunch period. Of course, the first and last 15 minutes of the day are not instructional, and there is a lot of other wasted time throughout the day.

[mcconnellboys]

No, that's too much for a 10 and 9 year old. I think it's too much even for high school and I'm very draconian. You should be able to get in your work in a regular school day of 8-3 - even with an hour for lunch. Don't do every subject every day.

[swellmomma]

Thank you everyone for your advice. I sat down tonight with my schedule, course lists etc and managed to tweak the schedule enough to get us down to a 9-4:20pm schedule with a 30 minute break for lunch M-TH and 9-3 on Fridays. I ended up alternating some of the lang arts components, and the days I do latin and greek and shorted amount of time spent on a few other things. I still included handicrafts, typing, health, home ec, composer study etc but reduced the number of days we are doing these things.

 

I don't think I can reduce it further without cutting subjects out completely. I did give a good cushion of time of certain subjects that I know my kids are particularily slow in, so if they pick up the pace they will finish their day sooner. I think if I didn't include certain subjects my days would be as short at some of yours, but I feel those topics are important so they will still have an 8 hour school day, but it is not like all of those subjects are book heavy kwim.

 

Thank you everyone for the ideas you had on how to reduce the school day, I do appreciate all the ideas presented to help me tweak the schedule. Now to go and plan out the one for K/1st grade :)

[Terabith]

I think that is reasonable. Especially since it includes pe and reading time and music practice! Even extending it to Laura's 9-5 three or four days a week is reasonable, as long as there is time for breaks and includes reading, pe, and music practice. PE activity can help break up more focused subjects.

[Ester Maria]

I never used 1h / grade level approach. It may be that I have children who can concentrate more than average, but we never had a light start. In first and second grade I started with 4-5 hours daily, six days a week (Saturday was the day off), and even that was not a radical change given that I have been basically working with them the same thing, though unofficially, in the previous years. Then in third/fourth grade we did about 6 hours daily and 4 hours Friday; and in fifth/sixth 7-8 hours daily (only Wednesday 6 and Friday 5).

 

That is without lunch, but with breaks (about 5 minutes between the subjects, and 20 minutes of gap between "Italian" and "English" part of the day, which probably makes up to almost an hour of wasted time - but they need that time). That is also excluding assigned reading and memorization, which they are supposed to do on their own in their free time (but we do not have classical homework often, so they do most of their school job during those hours).

 

They have always been okay with that, and able to concentrate, we never had any serious problems nor they felt they lacked free time.

[SandKsmama]

Really? Maybe my child works very slowly, but I just don't see how it's possible to do even the basic subjects, at that age, in four hours a day.

I had a 12 year old 7th grader, 8 year old 3rd grader, and 5 year old K-er this past school year, and we did all of our schoolwork in 4 hours a day, so I thought I'd butt in and respond to this. LOL

 

The short answer is that my kiddos can do all their "3 r" work in about 2 hours a day, then our "together" stuff (we use MFW, so that is Bible/history/science/read aloud) takes about 2 hours as well.

 

In my house, the key to getting our schoolwork done in that period of time is that the older 2 work fairly independently on their "3 r" stuff, and while they are doing that, I work with the little one. Also, the math, english, etc. curricula that we use doesn't take a very long time each day.

 

Hope that helps!

Amanda