Question about 'being stubborn'

[OrganicAnn]

I have a 5 year old and today she showed me how stubborn she can get. What I'm trying to figure out is 1) is it personality 2) is it developmental ie will she be more reasonable in the future or 3) is a discipline issue.

 

We are family with rules and consequences but nothing too severe or too lenient. We do have some family members that are very stubborn so it could be in the genes. And finally despite being a smart little thing, she still is young enough to have little kid illogical ideas, so maybe she will grow out of some of it.

 

For those of you who have lived through stubborn kids:

1) Does it ever change? - worse or better

2) Is there anything that is effective?

3) Can you break the stubbornness without breaking the spirit.

 

Thanks for any ideas.

 

Book suggestions on the topic welcomed. :)

Edited June 28, 2009 by OrganicAnn

[Karen in CO]

I stay out of parenting advice discussions, but a thought.

 

But what looks like stubborn in a child often looks like strong and independent in an adult.

[Mama Bear]

Just a couple of quick thoughts that have been helpful to me.

 

First, thinking ahead when it begins to become obvious that you're about to enter a power play of any kind and discovering the solution that will allow your child to save face -- this lets you both off the hook much earlier in the interaction and keeps her open to further expansion of character originated by you.

 

Second, my brother's first word was "no." It was just the beginning of a very long and argumentative road for us all. But he has grown up into a solidly ethical engineer who is much sought after **because** he is unafraid to speak the truth and stick to his guns, no matter the consequences.

 

And one more thing -- look around for info on the Anterior Cingulate Gyrus and... Shoot, the name of the other structure escapes me. Anyway, people who have a hard time letting go of a topic often have disregulation of electrical activity there. It's the brain's transmission and if it's out of whack, you won't get to move on easily. Also, from a brain function class I took years ago -- look up stuff about people who live in their limbic system. The limbic system is usually the seat of sort of unreasonable emotional response -- it will push and poke you until you agree to argue and "come live with it." If that area is overactive, good luck getting anything done! :D

 

Those things have helped me to unlock myself from the emotional response that *I* have to one of mine digging in their heels as though their lives depended upon it. :glare:

 

HTH some.

 

:grouphug: "We are all in this to-gether..."

Edited June 27, 2009 by Mama Bear

[stripe]

But what looks like stubborn in a child often looks like strong and independent in an adult.

I agree. I was considered stubborn as a child, so I may not offer the sort of advice you are seeking....

 

I think trying to conceptualize (and formulate) your family as a TEAM that works together and is considerate of each member is probably the best thing you can do to promote family harmony and health. Assume your children have the best motives unless proven otherwise.

[helena]

My 10 yo daughter is stubborn, she's a lot like my husband. He is SO STUBBORN. I've known him since I was 16, and 20 years later I'm still surprised at how hard headed he can be! I also greatly admire some of the things he has done with it.

My daughter hasn't gotten any better or worse over the years. I've set the standards for what I expect and things run fairly smooth. For example she doesn't have to like dinner every night, she just has to eat it. I make sure to cook her favorite dishes to even it all out. I don't tolerate stubborn behavior that looks or sounds rude. But if she paints herself in a corner with a bad mood, I help her out. It's hard for her to be like that sometimes too. I rarely ask her if she wants to do or go to XYZ because if she is even in a little stubborn funk she'll say no. I limit her options and opinions & in the end I think she appreciates it, and generally she has a good time.

It's a dance I guess, and it can be exhausting for me.

I would never want to break her spirit, for someone who can be such a pill, she is a gentle soul. I KNOW with guidance, it can help her be great at whatever she does in life. I like women women like that, cultured and tough as nails.

[Mom22ns]

For those of you who have lived through stubborn kids:

1) Does it ever change? - worse or better

2) Is there anything that is effective?

3) Can you break the stubbornness without breaking the spirit.

 

 

From the stubborn mother of a stubborn daughter...

1) It will get worse and better at different times in her life.

2) Pick your battles carefully. Make sure you don't back her up against a wall if you don't really want to fight.

3) No. Don't break it, learn to work around it and through it.

 

I agree with what others have said about stubborn children being strong adults. My dd has always been in ps and she (although tiny for her age) is known for standing up for kids who are being bullied, sharing her opinions and swaying a crowd - not being swayed, and being a leader in many ways. I never worry about what she will do because "everyone else is doing it". Teachers, parents and other kids all tell me how amazing she is. At home, well she can be a challenge :lol: I am very proud of her though and you may not want to change who your daughter is. Just help her learn other character traits that will temper her stubbornness like respect, obedience and self-control. Don't expect too much from a 5 yo though :001_smile:

[kalanamak]

I would encourage wisdom about what one is stubborn over. One can be stubborn over stupid things ("pig-headed"). My mother used to say we were all so bull-headed, and later sat me down and told me I was "self-willed". I looked it up in the dictionary and asked her "so what's the problem with that?"

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/self-willed

 

So, teach her to direct her will to good things by focusing on end results (or that over-worked word "consequences"). Tenacity is often a very good thing.

Edited June 28, 2009 by kalanamak

[wagnfun]

I have a 5 year old and today she showed me how stubborn she can get. What I'm trying to figure out is 1) is it personality 2) is it developmental ie will she be more reasonable in the future or 3) is a discipline issue.

 

We are family with rules and consequences but nothing too severe or too lenient. We do have some family members that are very stubborn so it could be in the genes. And finally despite being a smart little thing, she still is young enough to have little kid illogical ideas, so maybe she will grow out of some of it.

 

For those of you who have lived through stubborn kids:

1) Does it ever change? - worse or better

2) Is there anything that is effective?

3) Can you break the stubbornness without breaking the spirit.

 

Thanks for any ideas.

 

Book suggestions on the topic welcomed. :)

 

along with everything else that everyone has also said....

 

I believe sometimes, it can be a pride issue.

[Melissa in Australia]

2) Pick your battles carefully. Make sure you don't back her up against a wall if you don't really want to fight.

3) No. Don't break it, learn to work around it and through it.

 

 

I have stubborn children. I think it is genetic:D. I would really agree with the quote.

being stubborn is sometimes a good thing. you stick at doing something for a long time despite obstacles.

[Aggie]

There is a difference between stubbornness and determination.

 

Stubbornness is insisting on doing something one way without regard to whether it is right or wrong, without consulting someone more knowledgeable, and/or not changing a position in spite of good reason to change.

 

One rarely hears of stubbornness as a positive trait. "Oh, he is SO stubborn," isn't usually said with a smile and a lovey-dovey voice, ya know?

 

A stubborn child might put together a puzzle incorrectly and insist it's right or ok. A determined child might spend a long time putting the puzzle together correctly. A stubborn adult might insist THIS is the math program we're going to use this year despite its failure last year, a determined adult would find what works better for the students. A stubborn husband will do a project his way NO MATTER WHAT, while a determined husband will do a project despite challenges.

 

I consider stubbornness a character trait much like selfishness in that many people have an innate tendency to lean that way. But I believe we can also be taught to not act on those tendencies.

 

You didn't mention how she showed her stubbornness. Did she not take any correction? Did she stay in the pool despite you calling to her to get out? Not eat her supper? Absolutely insist that the sky is yellow? 5yo aren't known for their reasoning skills, so *I* would consider a true stubborn act more of a discipline issue. I don't want to raise a child to become a person who doesn't listen to reason or seek wise counsel because she *knows* she is right.

 

I know many strong adults who aren't stubborn. Truly stubborn people only lead people who don't think for themselves. I, by nature, am a follower. But I don't want to follow someone who isn't reasonable. :) It could be said that selfish children grow up to be strong adults, too, but that doesn't make selfishness a trait that doesn't need to be addressed in childhood. There are many ways to instill independence, strength, and determination without fostering and accepting true stubbornness.

 

I don't think you'll break her spirit by correcting her any more than you would break her spirit by addressing any other character issue.

 

All this said, if her stubbornness involved eating, you might want to check into food allergies. And Mama Bear's info on the physical aspect is very interesting! I'll have to check that out next time I feel a stubborn streak coming on in my life!

 

Of course, all this is mho, ymmv, iirc, fwiw, xyz, abc, etc.

[Impish]

I know this trait!

 

When people are frustrated with it, they call it, stubborn, mule headed, pig headed, bull headed.

 

When its working for someone, they call it strength, perseverance, determination, and tenacity.

 

All depends on which side of the fence you're on, and on which day.

 

 

Sincerely,

 

Someone who has this trait in abundance, married someone with this trait in abundance, and has THREE children with this trait (you guessed it!) in abundance. :D

[OrganicAnn]

Thanks for all the replies so far. It does help to discuss things like this sometimes.

 

We love the idea of determination, strong sense of self and willingness to stand up for one's self and one's ideas. But worry about too much stubbornness. I liked Aggie's definition "Stubbornness is insisting on doing something one way without regard to whether it is right or wrong, without consulting someone more knowledgeable, and/or not changing a position in spite of good reason to change."

 

The problem was she wanted to put coins in her mouth and wouldn't believe me when I said it was dangerous/choking hazard. She took the coins out of her mouth, but insisted that no matter what I said she would not believe me that it was dangerous. So she obeyed me over the coins, still she stubbornly keep persisting with the idea that I was only being mean and not trying to protect her from something dangerous. I mostly put this down to being '5' years old. I just worry that it might be a sign of things to come. I anticipate with dread a stubborn teenager!!!! And would love to start working on this now.

 

I like the advice about not backing her into a corner and picking your battles. I think that is always good to do.

[Guest Alte Veste Academy]

The problem was she wanted to put coins in her mouth and wouldn't believe me when I said it was dangerous/choking hazard. She took the coins out of her mouth, but insisted that no matter what I said she would not believe me that it was dangerous. So she obeyed me over the coins, still she stubbornly keep persisting with the idea that I was only being mean and not trying to protect her from something dangerous. I mostly put this down to being '5' years old. I just worry that it might be a sign of things to come. I anticipate with dread a stubborn teenager!!!! And would love to start working on this now.

 

Oh my! It sounds like we have the same brand of daughter. I totally relate to your post. DH and I have discussed MANY times how to improve dd's behavior without crushing her spirit. I'm parenting a mini-me...payback for my very smart-alecky childhood, I suppose! I liked the post that compared stubborn to determined. However, I was both stubborn AND determined. As Karen said, it can be an extremely valuable trait later in life. Negative peer pressure never worked on me. Period. Still doesn't. I LOVE that about myself. I want dd (and the boys too!) to have that gift, the gift of thinking for yourself and not feeling guilty or weird for thinking differently sometimes or for...Heaven forbid, following the rules.

 

What I've been working on is giving lavish praise when her stubborn behavior looks more like determination or self-protection. ("I'm so proud of you for you for telling Jane that you're not allowed to go past the pine tree on the hill, even when she kept asking you to go." "Good job working so hard, over and over, to sound out those words even though you were having a hard time at first! You were so determined and you got it done!")

 

Alternately, she gets disciplined for being unreasonably stubborn (sassy is what I call it then!), like yesterday when the pool was actually overflowing with water when the kids slightly shifted and she told me she was going to add more water. She was walking toward the spigot and I told her no. She got to the spigot and I said, "DD, I said no. There is enough water in the pool. Please make a good choice and mind." She turned the water on for TWO SECONDS, just being stubborn...as if it was actually physically and emotionally painful to mind...ARGH! But I knew she would because she's stubborn and THAT is stubborn, not determined, so it gets discipline. I wrapped her up in a towel and she had to sit out of the pool for for not minding.

 

Another effective technique I've been using more and more... When we're at the beginning of a conflict (maybe I've told her to pick up some toy she's played with and abandoned but she refuses) and I can see it's about to go south, I will say to her, "DD, you can choose to mind and quickly go about your play or you can choose to not mind and have lots of drama before you ultimately end up in your room, screaming and crying about how unfair it all is and how you hate to clean up." There is something about that visual (which she's all too familiar with) that usually helps her choose to mind.

 

In your situation, where she just refuses to believe the truth of what you've said...I get that too. DD thinks she's wise beyond her years (because she doesn't have enough life experience to realize how much life experience she lacks, you know? For that matter, neither do I!) and even if she knows she's wrong and I'm right, she can't admit it. It's humiliating to her and I remember feeling the same way. I don't know that I can make her....or that I should, since I remember how embarrassing it felt. Many times I remember realizing that my mom or dad was right but darned if I would admit it! I tell her frequently that it's ok for us to think differently but that I'm in charge because I'm the mom and that it's my job to keep her safe. Period.

 

For the record, I now have no problem admitting when I'm wrong. DH appreciates that. :D

[Cedarmom]

The problem was she wanted to put coins in her mouth and wouldn't believe me when I said it was dangerous/choking hazard. She took the coins out of her mouth, but insisted that no matter what I said she would not believe me that it was dangerous. So she obeyed me over the coins, still she stubbornly keep persisting with the idea that I was only being mean and not trying to protect her from something dangerous. I mostly put this down to being '5' years old. I just worry that it might be a sign of things to come. I anticipate with dread a stubborn teenager!!!! And would love to start working on this now.

 

I like the advice about not backing her into a corner and picking your battles. I think that is always good to do.

 

 

My son would do the same sort of thing when he was little. And yes, as a teenager he still is stubborn. I think one thing is not to engage in the argument. She obeyed you, but then you were letting her argue about whether it was a good idea. Just tell her discussion is over. Don't try and convince her. If she continues arguing leave the room, or be a brick wall. keep saying we're done talking about it. On the good side, my son will keep trying something, he does not give up easily and he loves his debate club, so now he has someone else to argue with!

[OrganicAnn]

Yes I try not to get into arguments with her. I had let it go, but later in the day I revisited it. I wanted to see once she/I cooled down, if she would be more reasonable. Also little kids can easily come across a stray coin and I wanted to make sure she would not be putting it in her mouth again when I wasn't around or wasn't looking. That is when I realized how.... shall I say persistent she was in her beliefs.