4 year old doesn't care...

[lilbean05]

I am having the hardest time with my oldest, my 4y/o DD. She is a very smart little girl, but seems to throw all care to the wind when it comes to misbehaving. She knows that what she is doing is wrong (hitting her 2 y/o brother), breaking a woven basket to make sticks, not following explicit directions (stay in your chair until I tell you to get up). She just sort of shrugs off her punishments and says after the fact "I will be nice NEXT time" and "I am not a nice girl" but she isn't ashamed at all about it. She says it matter of factly and then skips off on her merry way to hit her play and then she will hit her brother again or do something else she knows is wrong. :glare: I am completely COMPLETELY at my witts end and have no idea what to do. She knows what she is doing is wrong and we are VERY strict about following through and consequences, but it just doesn't matter. She just doesn't care. I have no idea what to do.

[secular_mom]

Something that sticks out for me is her saying "I am not a nice girl". Has she been told that she is 'not a nice girl' when she misbehaves? IF she has, then she may just be living up to the title. I have no idea whether this applies or not, it's just a thought.

[lilbean05]

She has been told "It is not nice to hit. It hurts to hit and it is not nice. We want to be nice and loving." We make an effort to be positive when we are scolding, by saying "It is not nice" instead of "It is bad."

[gardening momma]

Reading Raising Godly Tomatoes online has helped me a lot lately. www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com

[OrganicAnn]

She may be acting that way to get your attention. Even negative attention. Just a thought.

[lilbean05]

If the consequences you are dolling out don't make her care then you need to find something she does care about.

 

Believing that she is "not a nice girl" would bother me more than anything else. Why does she believe this about herself? Is she giving up to the inevitable because she can't be perfect so she won't try? Is she living up to words spoken by others?

 

Have you tried telling her what to do, instead of what not to do? "We keep out hands to ourselves even when we are frustrated" "Feet are not for kicking. When you are angry it is better to stomp around the yard". The emotions are real so try channeling it.

 

I am having a hard time trying to figure out what she DOES care about, because I completely agree. We have tried taking things away, the naughty chair (big super nanny fans!), reading scripture to talk about consequences and actions, we have tried redirecting and showing her what she can do. I am running out of ideas! I don't think she BELIEVES she isn't a nice girl. She is very happy to just say "I am not being a nice girl!!", big smile, shrug of the shoulder, and a very happy demeaner. She is a very happy child, very joyful. She hardly ever gets upset about much of anything. I am so happy that we have raised such a joyful, spirited child, but it seems to be biting us in the butt when it comes to learning right from wrong.

[Dirtroad]

I am having the hardest time with my oldest, my 4y/o DD. She is a very smart little girl, but seems to throw all care to the wind when it comes to misbehaving. She knows that what she is doing is wrong (hitting her 2 y/o brother), breaking a woven basket to make sticks, not following explicit directions (stay in your chair until I tell you to get up). She just sort of shrugs off her punishments and says after the fact "I will be nice NEXT time" and "I am not a nice girl" but she isn't ashamed at all about it. She says it matter of factly and then skips off on her merry way to hit her play and then she will hit her brother again or do something else she knows is wrong. :glare: I am completely COMPLETELY at my witts end and have no idea what to do. She knows what she is doing is wrong and we are VERY strict about following through and consequences, but it just doesn't matter. She just doesn't care. I have no idea what to do.

 

Your discipline isn't working. You might read Dare to Discipline by James Dobson. Her consequences aren't enough to stop the behavior and may make her feel like she is getting more attention, etc. It is amazing how they come to decisions at this age.

[lilbean05]

She may be acting that way to get your attention. Even negative attention. Just a thought.

 

I have thought that this might be the case too. I am 6 months pregnant and we are to the point where we don't jump around together anymore, I don't carry either of them anymore, I am running out of lap room, that sort of thing. We have really tried to mitigate the impact by making up for it in other ways--like big tickeling fest instead of jumping around dancing, that sort of thing. But my DD is the only one acting up; my DS doesn't seem to be impacted by anything, so I wasn't sure if this was it or not.

 

Thank you for all of the quick feedback. I was really needing to vent after a long trying day!

[CookieMonster]

She just sort of shrugs off her punishments and says after the fact "I will be nice NEXT time" and "I am not a nice girl" but she isn't ashamed at all about it. She says it matter of factly and then skips off on her merry way to hit her play and then she will hit her brother again or do something else she knows is wrong. :glare:

 

I had to break the rules about timeouts with my oldest. Instead of the standard age=time I had to have him stay in timeout until his attitude changed.

 

Sometimes that was a minute. Sometimes he stayed in timeout for ten or fifteen minutes. If I didn't make him stay until he got over himself, he would go directly back and do it again.

 

Just a thought.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Honestly, it sounds like punishment isn't what THIS child needs. People TEND to lean towards harsher, longer, harder punishments when kids don't respond to the punishments being doled out. That rarely works; it just makes the parents feel that they are doing SOMETHING. Unfortunately, the poor parents are STILL doing SOMETHING when the kid is 8 and 12, completely exhausted that THEY are doing so much work. Tough kids need BETTER discipline, not worse punishments. Work SMARTER and more effectively now so you and kiddo reap the rewards when kiddo is a preteen and teenager. And it MIGHT be a little harder now (at least for a tough kiddo). But giving 90-100% for a few year and working down to 10-20% makes a whole lot more sense than working at 75% til kid is an adult.

 

"Tomato staking" is good discipline. Kids need plenty of time, attention, and immediate direction. They need supervision and guidance. They need parents to catch them behaving well, set them up for success, encouage them. "Tomato staking" gives them all these things. It's solidly good for young children. In time, you can let looser of the reigns but don't give her responsibility and opportunity she isn't yet ready for.

 

Key things in discipline. First is consistency. You say you have that. GREAT! Some kids are 100% kids. If you're at 90%, you might work it up the last little bit. It'll get easier later, but for now, meet that need. Second is firmness. A soft brick wall doesn't give way. It won't kill ya to run into but it ain't budging either. It gives kids security when the boundaries are CLEAR. Third is setting kids up for success. This can't be stressed enough. Give kids cues to work off of. Give them direction and redirection. Guide them along the way. Start small. What you allow/encourage her to do, help her to succeed at. Then given more for her to succeed at. Fourth, discipline for the long-run. The idea isn't just to start/stop certain behaviors NOW. Yes, we want that to happen also, but if you can keep in mind the long term goals, you'll be less likely to just control her and punish her. You'll be guiding her towards self-discipline, self-control, internalized values and morals, etc.

 

There are LOTS of scriptures on discipline and teaching in the scriptures. FEW of them talk about punishments. Instead, they are all about consistency, persistence, kindness, gentleness, reasoning, encouraging, helping, love, thinking, patience. Your discipline needs to have that same basic message. You may well feel compelled to punish her occassionally. But it should be VERY rare if you are DISCIPLINING well. Your daughter is saying, "what you're doing now isn't working." Instead of doing more in that direction, maybe beefing up the teaching and guidance would be more beneficial.

 

I hope this helps a little,

[Pamela H in Texas]

I had to break the rules about timeouts with my oldest. Instead of the standard age=time I had to have him stay in timeout until his attitude changed.

 

rules, schmules...

 

Honestly, your way makes a WHOLE lot more sense. It is what we all do in the real world. We go to the bathroom, take a shower, take a walk, step out onto the porch, lie on our bed, whatever for as long as we need to in order to feel together enough to deal with things again. If he's ready in 40 seconds, GREAT! If he needs 20 minutes, let him have it!

[Garga]

Haven't read the other responses, so maybe I'm repeating.

 

I have a VERY strong willed 6 yo and a normal willed 4 yo. When my strong-willed son was 4 it was our worst year together. At 4 he challenged me non-stop all day long. It was awful.

 

After awhile of struggling and being harsh and disciplining and have consequences, I finally realized that being gentler, keeping him near me more, and connecting with him throughout the day is the best thing.

 

So, when either one of my boys does something they know they're not supposed to do, they become "glued" to me. They have to stay right by me in the house, usually holding my hand or holding onto my shirt or something. They must be right next to me. They can't be doing anything wrong when they're glued to Mommy! They have to follow me around and help me with whatever it is I'm doing. We do this until I feel that they have softened or are ready to try being nice over again.

 

Now that my strong willed boy is 6 and I've worked with him for so long, the gluing doesn't need to be for as long.

 

I think tomato staking (raisinggodlytomatoes.com) is the same idea. (Tomatoes will fall over and rot unless you stake them, relates to Children will be naughty unless they're right next to you being guided.)

 

The gentler I am, the more time I spend with my guys, the more cuddles we do, the more I give them eye contact and unexpected hugs throughout the day: the nicer they are and the more they respect and listen to what I say to them.

Edited June 25, 2009 by Garga

[Mommyof4ks]

I don't know when this behavior started, but mine got very emotional and acted up alot while I was pregnant. They seemed to know that something was about to change, and they did not like it one bit.

 

Once the baby arrived and they saw how much fun it was to have a baby around and that they were still loved, then they got back to behaving well.

 

That does not really help in the mean time, sorry.

[ekarl2]

Reading Raising Godly Tomatoes online has helped me a lot lately. www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com

 

This is a GREAT site! Thank you so much for posting it!

[Mandamom]

I had to break the rules about timeouts with my oldest. Instead of the standard age=time I had to have him stay in timeout until his attitude changed.

 

Sometimes that was a minute. Sometimes he stayed in timeout for ten or fifteen minutes. If I didn't make him stay until he got over himself, he would go directly back and do it again.

 

Just a thought.

 

You definitely aren't the only one. Don't feel bad :).

[AuntieM]

"Why yes, you ARE a good girl!"

 

And do your best to catch her doing good things. Vow to spend the next two days only commenting when you catch her doing something GOOD that you can commend her on, and on having good positive interaction when in "neutral" territory. Otherwise, gently and nonverbally remove her from a disobedient situation. Your standards remain the same, it's just your reactions that change.

 

I believe this is a good technique for all kids, but I do have one child who absolutely *thrives* on this type of parenting. HTH.

[6packofun]

She has been told "It is not nice to hit. It hurts to hit and it is not nice. We want to be nice and loving." We make an effort to be positive when we are scolding, by saying "It is not nice" instead of "It is bad."

 

It sounds like she's being flippant by really saying, "Oh well, so I'm not a nice girl!" lol For some children, semantics do count for a lot. Maybe you could ditch the "nice girl" language and make it more about "good choices and poor choices" with her behavior? It's the behavior that you want to focus on anyhow. So if it were me, I would respond every time she said, "I'm not a nice girl." with, "No, you're a very nice girl who made a poor choice. Let's think about what would be a better choice." And work from there.

 

One of the most effective tools I used at this age was The Rewind. We play out or repeat the situation--if it's one that suits this method--up to the point that dd gave the wrong response/attitude/behavior and let her work out what the better way would be. We do it over and over until we get a "good choice" out of her. LOL

[gevs4him]

First I would like to say thank you for sharing - it is always a caring loving parent who reaches out for advice - which you apparently are - don't feel you are doing something wrong because your child does not respond to your ways, it is tough trying to figure out why your child decides to act out. Take a step back and think well I am 6 months pregnant and things need to change around here so how can I put a positive spin to make that change? Maybe tell her you really need her help with things - explain to her she is the oldest and she is such a sweet, kind loving little girl who her mommy loves and needs help from - tell her you have some special things you know only a big girl like her will be able to do - whatever it takes to break the cycle of unkind behavior - have her do little things for her brother, make a big deal about it that you are so glad she can do that for him, have her do things around the house ( I had to change the way I folded clothes because our daughter felt she needed to help) whatever it takes to give her things to do to help you were you can give her praise. You could even make a little chore list to put stickers on or check off when she does a chore if that would make her happy.(our daughter loved hers) Will be praying for you -

Lisa

[lilbean05]

Thank you all SOO much! Today was much much better. I spent extra alone time with DD today, just the two of us playing for a little bit. I am making the shift to saying that she is a good girl, but made a poor choice (I like that--thank you!), and the book recommendations you made are great. I am going to print this thread off and show it to my husband, to whom I have been slowly reading random suggestions to, but this way he can read the whole thing through. You are all so wonderful to take the time to give me encouragement and suggestions!

 

:) Blessings to you!

Heidi

[Carol in Cal.]

That doesn't mean apology, although I think that that is important, too.

 

It means that you say something like, "People are very special. We don't hurt people, ever. No hitting, just hugging. Nice, gentle hugging. What can you do to make Joey feel better?" and walk her through something that approaches sincerity in that regard. Most 4 year olds, if you tell them this, will feel some genuine, though brief, concern for the other person, and will think of offering them a toy, or a hug, or something like that.

 

I wonder whether the general atmosphere in the house is pretty distracted/anxious right now? Sometimes preschoolers are sensitive to that without being about to articulate it. Those hugs work for her, too!

[secular_mom]

That doesn't mean apology, although I think that that is important, too.

 

It means that you say something like, "People are very special. We don't hurt people, ever. No hitting, just hugging. Nice, gentle hugging. What can you do to make Joey feel better?" and walk her through something that approaches sincerity in that regard. Most 4 year olds, if you tell them this, will feel some genuine, though brief, concern for the other person, and will think of offering them a toy, or a hug, or something like that.

 

I wonder whether the general atmosphere in the house is pretty distracted/anxious right now? Sometimes preschoolers are sensitive to that without being about to articulate it. Those hugs work for her, too!

 

Not to nitpick or anything, but would replace "we don't hit people" with "It's not okay to hit people, hitting hurts" and "make Joey feel better" with "help Joey feel better". It still amazes me how such small changes in wording can affect a child's perception.

[Carol in Cal.]

Not to nitpick or anything, but would replace "we don't hit people" with "It's not okay to hit people, hitting hurts" and "make Joey feel better" with "help Joey feel better". It still amazes me how such small changes in wording can affect a child's perception.

 

"help" is more accurate and less directive, so it's better.

 

I really have had a lot of success with the 'we don't hit people' remark, though. It engages the child in the community in a way that the other version does not--setting a community standard that everyone follows, and taking a tiny bit of the judgement out of the remark while still being very clear. It wouldn't work as well on a 7 year old, but 4 year olds are still figuring out what 'normal' is, and often they can be carried along with the 'crowd' toward what is presented as good and proper behavior.

[Karen sn]

I'd tell her, "That's ok. You don't have to be a nice girl at heart. You just have to act like one." Because she has a point. Some people just aren't naturally nice. They have to act it though!

[skaterbabs]

I would strongly encourage you to read "Raising Your Spirited Child" by Mary Sheedy Kurcinka.

[Lovedtodeath]

 

I'd tell her, "That's ok. You don't have to be a nice girl at heart. You just have to act like one." Because she has a point. Some people just aren't naturally nice. They have to act it though!

:lol: So true!

[specialmama]

I'd tell her, "That's ok. You don't have to be a nice girl at heart. You just have to act like one." Because she has a point. Some people just aren't naturally nice. They have to act it though!

 

Although I agree that this is true, I would never say this to a child who is 4. :001_huh: I feel that saying this is actually feeding this child's idea that she is a bad girl.

[Karen sn]

Although I agree that this is true, I would never say this to a child who is 4. :001_huh: I feel that saying this is actually feeding this child's idea that she is a bad girl.

 

Nice and "not bad" are not the same thing.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Although I agree that this is true, I would never say this to a child who is 4. I feel that saying this is actually feeding this child's idea that she is a bad girl.

 

Karen, though Nice and "not bad" are not the same thing, I agree with Karyn. First off, I'm not sure a kid is gonna get all those nuances of language. She just doesn't have the life experience.

 

And though it's completely true that we try to act better than we feel if what we're feeling would lead to inappropriate acts, I don't think I'd say "you don't have to be a nice girl at heart" either. The idea of discipline is to reach the heart so she CAN be a "nice girl at heart" also. As a Christian, there is NO WAY that I could okay not being nice at heart. (note: adding these parts as the OP mentioned being a christian faith) This child is created in God's image and God is the ultimate in goodness! She definitely has goodness deeply ingrained in her though she can't help having inherited the issues of sin. She is potentially Good in the making!

 

I do believe in behaving oneself better. My son went through some TOUGH times. He's just a more challenging kid than 99.9999% of kids. Very few rival him (and I've worked with hundreds of kids and with families with more difficult kiddos). He needed strong discipline (teaching/guidance). If I had OKAY'd not being "nice at heart" he would have ran with it possibly thinking that must be the way it was, he just wasn't. Instead, we talked about that sometimes how we feel and who we are take a little more time to come around but that we can control our actions and in time those other things WILL come around. I backed it up with scripture but asked him simply to trust my widom of being alive for 30some years also. BTW, kid wasn't 4 when we had this conversation though.

 

And he DID come around! His situational behavior, his main behavioral patterns, then his feelings and eventually WHO HE IS came around. Now, there were a few other influences as I don't believe that discipline alone changed everything, but I know that good strong discipline definitely helped.

 

Anyway, I'm hoping some of the above makes sense. I just think we have to be VERY careful about how we word things with children and the younger, the more careful we need to be about the message. They just don't have the life experience or knowledge of language nuances that we do as 20somethings to 50sometimes. How could a 4yo?

[Pamela H in Texas]

BTW, what I LOVE about this board is that we can have interchanges like this. I learn so much from hearing various perspectives. In the end, we take in the information and find what we can agree with and use for our families. It's pretty neat, imo :)