Storm Bay Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 Thanks! That's just what I wanted to know. We can definitely just skip the introduction part. I was impressed by the book selection, so I think we'll go ahead with it. The author herself isn't ID, btw, but uses that to help introduce discussion between the 3 camps, ID, evolution & creationism. Also, here's a link to some information about her use of the word design in the biology book. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112829 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 The author herself isn't ID, btw, but uses that to help introduce discussion between the 3 camps, ID, evolution & creationism. Also, here's a link to some information about her use of the word design in the biology book. http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112829 I think this is in reference to RS4K, and not NOEO? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 I think this is in reference to RS4K, and not NOEO? Yes but there was a comment here about RS4K. My fault for doing a search on RS4K and not reading the title more carefully when I found the post I answered here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted July 7, 2009 Share Posted July 7, 2009 Yes but there was a comment here about RS4K. My fault for doing a search on RS4K and not reading the title more carefully when I found the post I answered here! :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I've seen it a couple times mentioned as preferable to RS4K or Noeo but I had crossed it off my list ages ago because of their dominion science center website (which is linked to from About Us page on the Elements website), and which says: http://www.dominionsciencecenter.org/id15.html We believe the world was created by God and given to mankind to enjoy and to conserve. It is the duty of mankind to take care of the creation and to relieve suffering wherever possible. We seek truth in all things and will not present a scientific theory as fact. In our museum, scientific theories will remain theories. Ding ding ding went my bells because to me that reads like code for ID, and I had deleted it from my list of possible curricula choices. [big whine] I just want a science curriculum written by an evolutionist & pref an atheist. I'd like it to be easy to teach, engaging, rigorous, hands-on but with lots of good background to explain the concepts. Why is that so hard to find? [end big whine] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Satori Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 If you find one, be sure to let me know! :) I'm also looking for one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WishboneDawn Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 I've seen it a couple times mentioned as preferable to RS4K or Noeo but I had crossed it off my list ages ago because of their dominion science center website (which is linked to from About Us page on the Elements website), and which says: There's nothing in The Elements that related to ID and no reference to religion. She deals with the elements, plain and simple. I don't think an atheist evolutionist could have done a better job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 http://www.dominionsciencecenter.org/id15.html Ding ding ding went my bells because to me that reads like code for ID, and I had deleted it from my list of possible curricula choices. Really? Which form of ID would that be? Not all ID proponents believe that there is any kind of god or God. While I'm not an ID proponent, I've read several books by different ID people, and there is no way Michael Denton believes that God created anything; if he does now, he sure didn't when he wrote his first book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 [big whine] I just want a science curriculum written by an evolutionist & pref an atheist. I'd like it to be easy to teach, engaging, rigorous, hands-on but with lots of good background to explain the concepts. Why is that so hard to find? [end big whine] Probably because this is what the schools do, so those producing homeschool materials assume that this is already covered? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 http://eequalsmcq.com/classicscifaq.htm Does anyone know this guys story as to evolution/creation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 (edited) http://www.dominionsciencecenter.org/id15.html Ding ding ding went my bells because to me that reads like code for ID, and I had deleted it from my list of possible curricula choices. The Elements contains nothing that could be considered objectionable. However, after doing a few keyword searches in Carbon Chemistry, I found this at the end of a chapter on proteins. There are tens of thousands of different types of proteins in your body, so DNA contains an incredible amount of information! If you uncoiled your DNA, it would be about 6 feet long. Big deal, right? That doesn’t seem very long. But remember, the thickness would still be microscopic. If we increased the size of the DNA so that it was as thick as a piece of thread, the length would then be over 100 miles! Where did this information come from? Could random mutations have produced this amazing complex system? [unless something appears in a graphic, this was the only reference to mutations in the book. The discussion of DNA is otherwise solely in terms of its role in the production of proteins.] Have you ever seen complex information (like a computer program) come from nowhere? Followed by a thumbprint graphic saying: This is a rhetorical question. It isn't really for asking because the answer is obvious. We know that information can't come from nowhere. Note she doesn't say, "These are rhetorical questions." If I were teaching that lesson, I would continue, "Of course it doesn't come from nowhere it comes from..." and discuss it in evolutionary terms, even if only briefly. It is unlikely that it occur to my children to think that she might be talking in religious terms. Still, it's a big shift from the discussion of the relationship between DNA and proteins. I'll look through The Brain later. Edited July 23, 2009 by nmoira Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 22, 2009 Share Posted July 22, 2009 :thumbup1:Moira, I just wanted to complement you on sticking to the facts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizabeth Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Peek wrote :"bothered doing a google search about her beliefs, all of a sudden her curriculum is no lon"and as far as open agendas? well that would be considering the scientist's faith or beliefs instead of judging their work. That became quite evident when a number of secular folk used RS4K for quite some time with little complaint, and then when someone ger acceptable. That's pretty telling." Actually since you raised this I would like to acknowledge that I am the person who alerted others about this not because I googled her name and lo and behold found out she was a proponent of ID .When you buy the materials you are supporting their political agenda. I think it is morally weak and intellectually sloppy to buy from persons who financially support causes you find objectionable or reprehensible. After I purchased a product I began receiving solicitation letters from several ID PACS and further when I inquired as to how they got my name they were not able to say or refused to answer. Not acceptable. Furthermore it took me 5 hours to find the information I needed to stop the funding requests coming to my home. I felt like I had been duped , my name given to political action committees that I not only disagree with but have fought in court to keep theology out of the public schools . It would be as if you ordered a health book and then realized that it was funded by a PAC that supports Planned Parenthood after searching for hours on the internet for the information as to who funded the text. Then to add insult to injury Planned Parenthood sends you requests for donations to their cause. You would be fuming and rightly so. It is sneaky, underhanded and downright dishonest no matter who does it. Academic dishonesty is one of the things that I consider to be absolutely reprehensible. That includes using terms of art as if in common parlance fashion to confuse laypeople like the words theory and law. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornblower Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 moira, I really appreciate you taking the time to look at this & tell us what you're finding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 After I purchased a product I began receiving solicitation letters from several ID PACS and further when I inquired as to how they got my name they were not able to say or refused to answer. Not acceptable. Furthermore it took me 5 hours to find the information I needed to stop the funding requests coming to my home. I felt like I had been duped , my name given to political action committees that I not only disagree with but have fought in court to keep theology out of the public schools. Thank you so much for clarifying. That is not acceptable! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 I'll look through The Brain later.I didn't find anything here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 moira, I really appreciate you taking the time to look at this & tell us what you're finding.No problem. It's especially easy when the material is in digital format. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verity Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 (edited) NOEO is not a written curriculum, but rather a series of lesson plans. You can see from the list of books and other materials used for each level on the website that all the materials listed are secular. If you glue or tape together the introduction pages in the front of the NOEO manual, it is also completely secular. We only used Physics I, but I've never seen a specific complaint about NOEO aside from the Introduction. However, the Introduction is sufficient for some to avoid NOEO, and I understand that. I wouldn't ever use RS4K because of its author's associations with the ID community, but some other secular homeschoolers don't have a problem with that. We all have to draw our own lines and decide when to extend the benefit of the doubt. What is the ID community? I just realized that MoH is definitely not going to work for my christian but not Young Earth family and have already ordered RS4K - boy this curriculum business is exhausting! :tongue_smilie: Nevermind, I figured it out - sorry! Edited July 23, 2009 by Verity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 (edited) Actually since you raised this I would like to acknowledge that I am the person who alerted others about this not because I googled her name and lo and behold found out she was a proponent of ID .When you buy the materials you are supporting their political agenda. . The problem for me lies in the fact that I haven't found any curricula that supports my "political agenda" be it secular or religious, so I would have to write all my own! Even evolutionists have vastly different political agendas. Are you going to check the politcal beliefs of all of them, too? Evolutionists exist in many areas of the political spectrum, including communism & fascism, so if you buy an evolutionary text book, you're supporting the political agenda of that author, which may be vastly different than yours. Eugenics is a nasty offshoot of evolution that I am sure most evolutionists don't agree with it, but I can no longer support anything Planned Parenthood did (not a textbook, but a very popular organization) because its founder was a racist who supported eugenics (she hated Africans, Christians and those she called morons.) This is why I have to side with Peek on this one, even though she and I don't always see eye to eye. ETA Dr. Keller is an ex-atheist who is a creationist, not an ID proponent. I heard her speak in person as I was considering RS4K and heard her views. Edited July 23, 2009 by Karin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truscifi Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Wow, people are getting really worked up on this one.:tongue_smilie: :chillpill: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Bay Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Wow, people are getting really worked up on this one.:tongue_smilie: :chillpill: :D:D:D Naturally. Any thread that gets into evolution, ID, etc, or starts to criticize a well loved curricula is liable to go this way. I get worked up when I see what I perceive as misinformation. Actually, I wasn't even worked up, just enjoying the discussion and putting out other food for thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truscifi Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 :D:D:D Naturally. Any thread that gets into evolution, ID, etc, or starts to criticize a well loved curricula is liable to go this way. I get worked up when I see what I perceive as misinformation. Actually, I wasn't even worked up, just enjoying the discussion and putting out other food for thought. Lol, I understand. I was enjoying it enough to read through all 12 pages of posts...but sometimes people get carried away with discussions. Just trying to lighten the mood :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Lol, I understand. I was enjoying it enough to read through all 12 pages of posts...but sometimes people get carried away with discussions. Just trying to lighten the mood :) You should see how worked up people get when I say that MFW won't work for my family. ;) But, really, we are done being worked up (though I fear that I lost a friend due to siding with the wrong party)... did you see the date on the posts? This is an old thread that was resurrected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truscifi Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Ahhh, I see. No, I didn't look at the dates on the earlier posts, just on the last few. Thanks for the clarification! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizabeth Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 http://www.arn.org/docs2/news/schoolsciencestandards090403.htm'>http://www.arn.org/docs2/news/schoolsciencestandards090403.htm'>http://www.arn.org/docs2/news/schoolsciencestandards090403.htm'>http://www.arn.org/docs2/news/schoolsciencestandards090403.htm I do not think you are correct, Keller is an ID proponent. I have 5 more links to prove that I am correct regarding funding, the intelligent design she ascribes to but never explicitly admits so as to avoid having people who wish to teach pure science reject her work outright and if you do not understand that I am suggesting that when you buy these books you are directly supporting ID being taught in the public schools I do not know what to say I cannot make it any more clear. LInks follow: http://www.discovery.org/a/3171 http://www.arn.org/ http://www.intelligentdesign.org/resources.php http://www.arn.org/arnproducts/rs4k/rs30.htm http://books.google.com/books?id=raqJjM9LkeAC&pg=PA166&lpg=PA166&dq=ARN+research+network+funding&source=bl&ots=gcMfdleI7M&sig=E3xArIubMenqMew5HOYy8qIF1Zc&hl=en&ei=2upnSp2_O52qtgfbo7TODA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2 I provide these links because I do not wish to debate what is factually obvious that she believes in ID and is not frank about the fact that your dollars and name will be given to Political Action Committees and the ARN network so they can solicit funds from you. I personally do not care what anyone else uses to educate their children hsing is about parental choice . I do care that persons who are not intending to support or teach a certain point of view being hoodwinked into purchasing materials by the abscence of clear information regarding the POV being taught and where, if at all their name and address will be given to another entity. It is unethical . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Elizabeth, I for one appreciate the clarification as this RS4K debate has been going on all over the place and I never knew about where this was coming from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 I think it is morally weak and intellectually sloppy to buy from persons who financially support causes you find objectionable or reprehensible Okay. I thought I had left this thread behind weeks ago, but I have to say something here. Elizabeth, I am one of those morally weak and intellectually sloppy people you are talking about.:glare: My youngest raced through what I thought was a year's worth of science in 6 months. I checked our state's science standards to see what else I needed to cover. I looked through my options and ended up with LifePac. The science part that wasn't Biblical (1/3rd) was fine, even demanding. It was boring beyond belief, but it did the job. Did I like paying for a Bible study when I was buying a science program? No, but I knew what I was getting myself into. I would love to be a "purist" like many of the secular homeschoolers here. However, it's not going to happen until I have better choices than the same cr**py, watered -down textbooks that my daughter brings home from her ps hs. Secular textbook publishers also have agendas. In an effort to be all things all over the country they often fail to provide anything of depth. I find it just as morally reprehensible to support their dumbing down of American students. I am not applying this standard to all textbook publishers but it fits for the majority of the ones I've seen. When someone writes a science program for homeschoolers that is scientifically and academically excellent that doesn't look like it was pulled straight from a ps classroom, I'll be the first in line. Until then, just sign me "Lisa-the weak and sloppy". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmilyK Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 But then I love a healthy debate. Elizabeth, thanks for all this research. I agree with your concerns. I'm really disturbed about the fact that you were put on mailing lists, and what the profits are used for. Like Lisa, I've been weak on this. :001_smile: Further complicating it for me is that I am religious (albeit a liberal Christian), so I don't mind references to God, and authors who happen to be Christian, but it all seems out of place in science texts (and I have the same problem with providential history). All I want is something in line with current scientific understanding, that's well done and teachable. Lisa said it better than I can -- and answered the question about why we need secular homeschool materials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 I forgot to add that I too would be fried to have my name passed on to an ID PAC because of curriculum I had purchased. Ugh! I hadn't considered that ramification. I just want to educate my dc to the very best of my ability with the best possible materials. It seems like such a simple desire, eh?;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Okay. I thought I had left this thread behind weeks ago, but I have to say something here. Elizabeth, I am one of those morally weak and intellectually sloppy people you are talking about.:glare: When someone writes a science program for homeschoolers that is scientifically and academically excellent that doesn't look like it was pulled straight from a ps classroom, I'll be the first in line. :iagree: I forgot to add that I too would be fried to have my name passed on to an ID PAC because of curriculum I had purchased. Ugh! I hadn't considered that ramification. I just want to educate my dc to the very best of my ability with the best possible materials. It seems like such a simple desire, eh?;):iagree:No surprise that I agree with Lisa! I fought tooth and nail using Abeka, but it is the best math program for us. I researched the moral ramifications of supporting Abeka and I decided that I am not donating... they are providing me with a service. I'd still prefer not to... but, see the above. :) Thanks Lisa! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizabeth Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Okay. I thought I had left this thread behind weeks ago, but I have to say something here. Elizabeth, I am one of those morally weak and intellectually sloppy people you are talking about.:glare: My youngest raced through what I thought was a year's worth of science in 6 months. I checked our state's science standards to see what else I needed to cover. I looked through my options and ended up with LifePac. The science part that wasn't Biblical (1/3rd) was fine, even demanding. It was boring beyond belief, but it did the job. Did I like paying for a Bible study when I was buying a science program? No, but I knew what I was getting myself into. I would love to be a "purist" like many of the secular homeschoolers here. However, it's not going to happen until I have better choices than the same cr**py, watered -down textbooks that my daughter brings home from her ps hs. Secular textbook publishers also have agendas. In an effort to be all things all over the country they often fail to provide anything of depth. I find it just as morally reprehensible to support their dumbing down of American students. I am not applying this standard to all textbook publishers but it fits for the majority of the ones I've seen. When someone writes a science program for homeschoolers that is scientifically and academically excellent that doesn't look like it was pulled straight from a ps classroom, I'll be the first in line. Until then, just sign me "Lisa-the weak and sloppy". I appreciate your response and wholeheartedly agree that secular textbook publishers fail to provide anything of depth or that is affordable for most families. I absolutely loved using CPO Science texts by Dr Hsu but even for just a few experiments it was very pricey indeed. We used the texts and only did a few experiments. I simply refuse to spend money on what I consider a "science" program that has as its foundational premise , theology. That is what I appreciate so very much about home education . Each family can cull through materials and select what most closely aligns with their intellectual, spiritual and political values. http://dev.cpo.com/home/2/ForEducators/PhysicsAFirstCourse/tabid/265/Default.aspx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peek a Boo Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 http://www.arn.org/docs2/news/schoolsciencestandards090403.htm'>http://www.arn.org/docs2/news/schoolsciencestandards090403.htm'>http://www.arn.org/docs2/news/schoolsciencestandards090403.htm'>http://www.arn.org/docs2/news/schoolsciencestandards090403.htm I do not think you are correct, Keller is an ID proponent. I have 5 more links to prove that I am correct regarding funding, the intelligent design she ascribes to but never explicitly admits so as to avoid having people who wish to teach pure science reject her work outright and if you do not understand that I am suggesting that when you buy these books you are directly supporting ID being taught in the public schools I do not know what to say I cannot make it any more clear. LInks follow: http://www.discovery.org/a/3171 http://www.arn.org/ http://www.intelligentdesign.org/resources.php http://www.arn.org/arnproducts/rs4k/rs30.htm http://books.google.com/books?id=raqJjM9LkeAC&pg=PA166&lpg=PA166&dq=ARN+research+network+funding&source=bl&ots=gcMfdleI7M&sig=E3xArIubMenqMew5HOYy8qIF1Zc&hl=en&ei=2upnSp2_O52qtgfbo7TODA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2 I provide these links because I do not wish to debate what is factually obvious that she believes in ID and is not frank about the fact that your dollars and name will be given to Political Action Committees and the ARN network so they can solicit funds from you. I personally do not care what anyone else uses to educate their children hsing is about parental choice . I do care that persons who are not intending to support or teach a certain point of view being hoodwinked into purchasing materials by the abscence of clear information regarding the POV being taught and where, if at all their name and address will be given to another entity. It is unethical . so....nobody that you buy stuff from contributes to ANY cause you deem horrible?? I've never been able to track every dollar i spent like that. Can you share your methodology of determining where all the different retailers spend their money? I can only hope that one day I'm not so morally weak and intellectually sloppy to buy from persons who financially support causes I find objectionable or reprehensible. and i didn't see anywhere in those links where it says they are sharing customer information w/ ID proponents/PACs --can you clarify? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nmoira Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 [i thought I'd posted this this morning...] The problem for me lies in the fact that I haven't found any curricula that supports my "political agenda" be it secular or religious, so I would have to write all my own!Well, I've never received anything other than catalogues from companies after ordering curriculum, so what Elizabeth is describing is something of an anomaly, and certainly not something I'd tolerate. ETA Dr. Keller is an ex-atheist who is a creationist, not an ID proponent. I heard her speak in person as I was considering RS4K and heard her views.I've seen this claim before, but have problems reconciling it with: ID Network Featured Speakers -- 2004 RS4K was begun under the umbrella of ARN (here's link for those not familiar with ARN) ARN seems to be under the impression Ms. Keller is a proponent of ID: In New Mexico one newspaper exclaimed “Evolution science staying in schools†after the Board of Education approved a new science standard. What they didn’t report was that “Evolution religion†had been removed. The new draft standard had been replete with materialistic dogma and ideology. Through the involvement and insistence of several proponents of Intelligent Design (including Dr. Rebecca Keller, author of RealScience-4-Kids and research chemist at the University of New Mexico), the curriculum committee agreed that dogma had no place in good science education and most of the offending remarks were removed. Furthermore, even though evolution would be taught as the leading scientific view for life on earth, the Education Department made it clear that developing critical thinking skills was an important part of science education and students and teachers were free to question evolution theory. And she identified herself as such in an op-ed piece she co-authored for the Albuquerque Journal. She has represented The Discovery Institute: The Discovery Institute's two speakers, von Sternberg and Keller, met Jan. 23 in Columbia to tell Education Oversight Committee members why South Carolina's highly regarded science guidelines should carry critical analysis language pushed by Fair. And a link to the Discovery Institute for those not familiar with it. Note their sub-site: http://www.intelligentdesign.org/ Note that though she is described at a former "research professor," most often by the Discovery Institute, this is and error and she was a research assistant. She also did some post doc work. I don't say this it undermine her credentials -- she has a PhD -- and I see no evidence that the initial mistake is hers (apparently dating from the dissent from Darwin statement). It is, however, a commonly seen error. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elizabeth Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 so....nobody that you buy stuff from contributes to ANY cause you deem horrible?? I've never been able to track every dollar i spent like that. Can you share your methodology of determining where all the different retailers spend their money? I can only hope that one day I'm not so morally weak and intellectually sloppy to buy from persons who financially support causes I find objectionable or reprehensible. and i didn't see anywhere in those links where it says they are sharing customer information w/ ID proponents/PACs --can you clarify? That is the point Peek. They do not disclose that and as a person who gives a sizable amount to the Democratic party and is a precinct captain for my area , Southern Poverty Law Center and many other totally liberal,progressive causes there is no way that any ID/creationist PAC or any such company would get my name unless it was from that company. Is there any doubt that ARN reaps profits from the curricula sales???I included a link showing that specifically. I am not worried about every dollar that I spend but I will not shop from a company whose entire agenda is completely against my intellectual , political and spiritual values. Walmart is a prime example . Personally ,I think it is great when people choose not to do business with a company that is a substantial supporter of a belief system that they find objectionable. I wish more people that espouse a certain set of beliefs would put their money where their mouth is. FWIW I do not back away from alleging that it is moral weakness and intellectually sloppy to spend money with a company when you know good and darn well that they support /contribute to causes, beliefs etc that you find objectionable. I strongly believe in the power of the pursestrings...odd that this thread has riled up feathers, conservative christians have no problem with boycotting as a general rule ...I often go here http://www.opensecrets.org/ or http://www.cpac.org/ to see where $$$$ is coming from in the area of politics. It is a reality check for me to see that politicians who espouse one thing and accept money that shows their disingenous pattern of behaviour. As always I appreciate your thoughtful response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 I think I'd be miffed if purchasing curricula materials got my information distributed to ANY political action group, whether I agreed with their agenda or not. Science has been a real sticking point for us too. We ARE a religious family, but I don't like the religious homeschool science materials at all. To me, religion and science are just two separate things and smushing them together results in something else entirely that teaches kids not only shaky science, but funky theology as well. I very much prefer secular materials for science, but it does seem in the homeschool world as if "secular" means "carbon copy of public school". For some reason all that inspiring stuff about living books instead of textbooks and notebooking or lapbooking instead of workbooks and worksheets turns into "oh well if you want secular just buy a textbook". Makes me cranky. This year I've put together a course guide for a physical science course for my son that uses all secular materials (see my siggy). It does use a textbook (Science Explorer) as the spine, but it includes other good books too. I'm especially interested to see how my son responds to the biographies of scientists, as I think it's important to see science in context as a journey of discovery that real people have participated in over the centuries, and not just a list of dry facts or a series of fun activities. I love my faith, but I love science too and it really frustrates me that I can't find better secular science materials for homeschoolers. Then again, with all this talk of supporting causes, I don't know if my science stuff will ever sell to anybody because religious folks will object to my insistance on secular science (and probably to my particular religion, even though it's not in the materials at all), and secular folks will object to my being involved with religion at all. Sigh. Oh well...lol. It's out there, we'll see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 For some reason all that inspiring stuff about living books instead of textbooks and notebooking or lapbooking instead of workbooks and worksheets turns into "oh well if you want secular just buy a textbook". Makes me cranky. Sorry. lol. But most of the debates that I see are programs that are written as textbooks. Not programs that choose from living books. There are many, many living books and encyclopedias espousing evolution, so a program based on literature is easy. Noeo (from the OP, most of the replies have been about RS4K) does it from what I have understood. In the past Sonlight has worked for that. What you aren't finding is a science text (like RS4K or God's Design) that espouses evolution for homeschoolers, or an evolutionist who is putting together the literature based program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 I think I'd be miffed if purchasing curricula materials got my information distributed to ANY political action group, whether I agreed with their agenda or not. Science has been a real sticking point for us too. We ARE a religious family, but I don't like the religious homeschool science materials at all. To me, religion and science are just two separate things and smushing them together results in something else entirely that teaches kids not only shaky science, but funky theology as well. I very much prefer secular materials for science, but it does seem in the homeschool world as if "secular" means "carbon copy of public school". For some reason all that inspiring stuff about living books instead of textbooks and notebooking or lapbooking instead of workbooks and worksheets turns into "oh well if you want secular just buy a textbook". Makes me cranky. This year I've put together a course guide for a physical science course for my son that uses all secular materials (see my siggy). It does use a textbook (Science Explorer) as the spine, but it includes other good books too. I'm especially interested to see how my son responds to the biographies of scientists, as I think it's important to see science in context as a journey of discovery that real people have participated in over the centuries, and not just a list of dry facts or a series of fun activities. I love my faith, but I love science too and it really frustrates me that I can't find better secular science materials for homeschoolers. Then again, with all this talk of supporting causes, I don't know if my science stuff will ever sell to anybody because religious folks will object to my insistance on secular science (and probably to my particular religion, even though it's not in the materials at all), and secular folks will object to my being involved with religion at all. Sigh. Oh well...lol. It's out there, we'll see what happens. MamaSheep, what age range do you see for your product? Where do you see the student going next after this class? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 What you aren't finding is a science text (like RS4K or God's Design) that espouses evolution for homeschoolers, or an evolutionist who is putting together the literature based program. Carmen, as usual, your nimble and perceptive brain has hit the nail on the head, at least for me. If I need a textbook for middle school or high school, I want something similar to Dr. Wile's books without the preaching. We've done well with Apologia but there are days I feel positively violent towards the man ( more to do with his attitude than his beliefs). His texts don't feel nearly as busy as my dd's ps books and seem more efficient if not always exciting. I don't have a science background, so I can't speak to the quality of the science except that my ds tests well after using Dr. Wile's books. Science is definitely my most frustrating area for choosing curriculum and it's one of the most important disciplines in this house given my dc's interests.:tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Sorry. lol. But most of the debates that I see are programs that are written as textbooks. Not programs that choose from living books. There are many, many living books and encyclopedias espousing evolution, so a program based on literature is easy. Noeo (from the OP, most of the replies have been about RS4K) does it from what I have understood. In the past Sonlight has worked for that. What you aren't finding is a science text (like RS4K or God's Design) that espouses evolution for homeschoolers, or an evolutionist who is putting together the literature based program. Yes, you're right. There definitely are a lot of individual RESOURCES from a secular perspective. It's pre-organized homeschool programs that are hard to find. And there are starting to be some of those that do a pretty good job at an elementary level. We really liked Pandia's REAL Life Science I a few years back. Getting into middle school, though, it seems to be a problem, although I did see a few programs starting to emerge when I was searching for one. I didn't like any of them well enough to pick them, but it was nice to see that people are working in that direction nonetheless. MamaSheep, what age range do you see for your product? Where do you see the student going next after this class? It's intended for students working at a 6th-8th grade level, but it would probably work for a strong reader a grade or two lower, or for a high school class for someone not planning on college. I guess where you would go next would depend a bit on the student. We're thinking we'll probably do a 9th grade level biology with ds next year (for 8th grade, he's a sciencey kid), but if you were to do this physical science course for 6th grade you'd want another middle school level course next. I'm hoping to put out similar middle school level course guides for earth science and life science using the other Science Explorer books as spines, but I'm not sure what the release schedule will look like. It depends a bit on whether I can find an organized biology course I like for my son, or whether I need to put one together myself. I am excited about this project and enjoying it, but I do have to put my own family first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 I don't know if my science stuff will ever sell to anybody because religious folks will object to my insistance on secular science (and probably to my particular religion, even though it's not in the materials at all), and secular folks will object to my being involved with religion at all. Sigh. Oh well...lol. It's out there, we'll see what happens.That is exactly how I feel!!!!:grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Yes, you're right. There definitely are a lot of individual RESOURCES from a secular perspective. It's pre-organized homeschool programs that are hard to find. And there are starting to be some of those that do a pretty good job at an elementary level. We really liked Pandia's REAL Life Science I a few years back. Getting into middle school, though, it seems to be a problem, although I did see a few programs starting to emerge when I was searching for one. I didn't like any of them well enough to pick them, but it was nice to see that people are working in that direction nonetheless. :D Well I know how you feel in that area as well! That's why I started writing my history program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 :D Well I know how you feel in that area as well! That's why I started writing my history program. Oooh! What kind? Might you perchance be aiming toward a middle to high school age group, secular, classical, and easy to execute? If so, you might make me a very happy camper. We can crack the whip at each other...lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Not yet :o Right now I have 18 weeks of Ancients for K-3 (aproximately) and 3-5 in the works, along with the next 18 weeks of both of course! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 (edited) Not yet :o Right now I have 18 weeks of Ancients for K-3 (aproximately) and 3-5 in the works, along with the next 18 weeks of both of course! Aw well, maybe it'll work for my younger one then. I really like SOTW, though. You don't use that as a spine, by any chance? Edited July 24, 2009 by MamaSheep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paula in PA Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Then again, with all this talk of supporting causes, I don't know if my science stuff will ever sell to anybody because religious folks will object to my insistance on secular science (and probably to my particular religion, even though it's not in the materials at all), and secular folks will object to my being involved with religion at all. Sigh. Oh well...lol. It's out there, we'll see what happens. Not this secular person. I really like what you did. Enough to make me reconsider (again :tongue_smilie:) using SE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 (edited) Not this secular person. I really like what you did. Enough to make me reconsider (again :tongue_smilie:) using SE. Thank you! What a nice thing to say. In several ways. :001_smile: Edited July 24, 2009 by MamaSheep correcting typo ;P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Aw well, maybe it'll work for my younger one then. I really like SOTW, though. You don't use that as a spine, by any chance? Of course! I looked into different spines to see if I could satisfy the complainers, but SOTW is the best. It is based on the encyclopedia more than SOTW though, if someone were to want to leave it out. I plan to add Little History of the World to the next level, optional of course, but scheduled. I don't really think at this age a spine makes much sense if you only read a chapter at a time. I scheduled it that way, but DD reads all the other books and dabbles in projects, and we review twice a year by reading SOTW straight through. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MamaSheep Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 Of course! I looked into different spines to see if I could satisfy the complainers, but SOTW is the best. It is based on the encyclopedia more than SOTW though, if someone were to want to leave it out. I plan to add Little History of the World to the next level, optional of course, but scheduled. I don't really think at this age a spine makes much sense if you only read a chapter at a time. I scheduled it that way, but DD reads all the other books and dabbles in projects, and we review twice a year by reading SOTW straight through. I'll be interested to see it when it comes out. But I don't want to derail the thread anymore than it already has been. Thanks for answering my questions. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovedtodeath Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 So... it looks like Noeo is written with secular materials and has no comment from the authors to stear it in a non-secular way in the lessons, but some may object to their statement in the front that is written in the Teacher's Manual. Is that a good sum up of the OP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lovemykids Posted July 24, 2009 Share Posted July 24, 2009 So... it looks like Noeo is written with secular materials and has no comment from the authors to stear it in a non-secular way in the lessons, but some may object to their statement in the front that is written in the Teacher's Manual. Is that a good sum up of the OP? Yes, I believe this sums it up...correct me if I'm wrong. Some secular HSers just object to the statement of faith (or whatever it is) on the website. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.