Mommy7 Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 (edited) Does that sound like a cry for help or what? Okay...we did Shurley 3 this year. My son felt it was hard, but he did do well with it, gradewise..."A" average. However, he is unable to put into words anything about grammar. Can't explain things...if I ask him what a noun is, he sort of panics. This could be more of a lack of narration than anything. Do you think? And, although we have been finding complete subjects and predicates all year (as well as simple), if I just hand him a sentence, he can't find them. He finds grammar difficult and does. not. like it. at. all. He is 10, btw, and will be 11 in the fall. So, he doesn't like that he is in 3rd and feels behind. We will be doing 4th this year. I even thought about calling it 5th even though it will be 4th grade work, just to boost his ego a little. He was never concerned about the age thing before this year. I can thank a few months in private school for that! Now he is very conscious of the number on the book, if you know what I mean! Also, we have never done diagramming or narration. I just read WTM and am understanding the why of it all. So, this year I am making some changes. So, I am considering FLL...thinking it would be more gentle. Should I do a year of review while introducing diagramming by using FLL3? If I follow that scenario, he would do FLL3 in 4th, FLL4 in 5th, R&S 5 in 6th, R&S 6 in 7th, etc. Does that sound like a good plan? I would prefer to start with FLL4, as it seems a little closer to grade level. But, if too much is thrown at him at once, he will panic, guaranteed. Should I do FLL3 everday, and then start FLL4? Could I complete them both in one year, or is that too much? I know they are planned to be a three day a week program. If I did it 5 days, is it doable? He is accustomed to spending 30 minutes a day on grammar. I have R&S4, but you have to draw the lines yourself in that one, so I thought FLL might be a better option. A little more gentle. Ideas or thoughts, Pleeeeeease! Thanks! :001_smile: Edited June 16, 2009 by Mommy7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 Does that sound like a cry for help or what? Okay...we did Shurley 3 this year. My son felt it was hard, but he did do well with it, gradewise..."A" average. However, he is unable to put into words anything about grammar. Can't explain things...if I ask him what a noun is, he sort of panics. This could be more of a lack of narration than anything. Do you think? And, although we have been finding complete subjects and predicates all year (as well as simple), if I just hand him a sentence, he can't find them. He finds grammar difficult and does. not. like it. at. all. He is 10, btw, and will be 11 in the fall. So, he doesn't like that he is in 3rd and feels behind. We will be doing 4th this year. I even thought about calling it 5th even though it will be 4th grade work, just to boost his ego a little. He was never concerned about the age thing before this year. I can thank a few months in private school for that! Now he is very conscious of the number on the book, if you know what I mean! Also, we have never done diagramming or narration. I just read WTM and am understanding the why of it all. So, this year I am making some changes. So, I am considering FLL...thinking it would be more gentle. Should I do a year of review while introducing diagramming by using FLL3? If I follow that scenario, he would do FLL3 in 4th, FLL4 in 5th, R&S 5 in 6th, R&S 6 in 7th, etc. Does that sound like a good plan? I would prefer to start with FLL4, as it seems a little closer to grade level. But, if too much is thrown at him at once, he will panic, guaranteed. Should I do FLL3 everday, and then start FLL4? Could I complete them both in one year, or is that too much? I know they are planned to be a three day a week program. If I did it 5 days, is it doable? He is accustomed to spending 30 minutes a day on grammar. I have R&S4, but you have to draw the lines yourself in that one, so I thought FLL might be a better option. A little more gentle. Ideas or thoughts, Pleeeeeease! Thanks! :001_smile: Here's an idea. How about using the Michael Clay Thomas materials? They are designed for "Gifted children", that should make him feel good. And no numbers on the courses (that should make you feel good). We haven't used these yet. But they looked well explained, give great examples, and then don't beat them to death. I know I would have panicked with Shirley and would have loved something like MCT. Just a thought. Bill http://www.rfwp.com/mct.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lolly Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 You could still use R&S4. Just draw the lines for diagraming for him yourself. I had to do that with one of mine for R&S4 and 5. By 6th, she was ready to do it herself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafiki Posted June 16, 2009 Share Posted June 16, 2009 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKS Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 How about Hake Grammar 5? It doesn't assume prior grammar knowledge, it's incremental with plenty of review (like Saxon), and it has the right number on the book. My son, who has dyslexia and major grammar issues, did well with Hake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy7 Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share Posted June 17, 2009 I had that same thought about SE being auditory. I was just looking at the R&S website. R&S 3 looks like the perfect level. Do you think that is backtracking too much? But, then again, the point is that we get a solid grounding. It doesn't look intimidating at all. It may just give the basics he so desperately needs. I think what happened is that he had not had any grammar, really, before doing Shurley 3. They introduce so many parts of speech, one after the other, that I think it snowballed and he started getting confused. So, he may just need a good year of solid review. And there are only 125 lessons in the R&S3. Then, we could move on to R&S 4. What do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lolly Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 I had that same thought about SE being auditory. I was just looking at the R&S website. R&S 3 looks like the perfect level. Do you think that is backtracking too much? But, then again, the point is that we get a solid grounding. It doesn't look intimidating at all. It may just give the basics he so desperately needs. I think what happened is that he had not had any grammar, really, before doing Shurley 3. They introduce so many parts of speech, one after the other, that I think it snowballed and he started getting confused. So, he may just need a good year of solid review. And there are only 125 lessons in the R&S3. Then, we could move on to R&S 4. What do you think? I know what would happen if I did that. We would wind up rushing through R&S 3 totally negating my purpose. I think it might work better to start with R&S 4 and proceed more slowly. 4 is still pretty gentle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laura Corin Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 Can he write? I just ask because perhaps you might want to go in a radical new direction for him. Calvin has absorbed decent grammar from all the reading he has done. We therefore only do grammar light (reminders if something goes wrong, a little explicit grammar as it comes up in his complete English course). I see grammar as a tool, not an end in itself. It sounds as if intensive grammar study is not having its intended effect, so it's worth thinking about your goals and how to achieve them. Best wishes Laura Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlsdMama Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 I've used both Rod & Staff and First Language Lessons. Our second child, a boy, is very math minded. That's code... It means he isn't fond of grammar, language arts, is pencil allergic, et cetera. I loved Rod & Staff. It is a great program, very thorough. My language arts focused daughter succeeded with it. But it wasn't a good fit. I can't say he LOVES First Language Lessons. I can say he doesn't mind it. I can also say that he feels proficient and it has short lessons that are really doable for him. It isn't overwhelming at all. We are about one half of a level behind his age and we're okay with that. I'd give it a shot. First Language Lessons is what I needed and every year she's come out with a new level, I've purchased it. It's unfortunate it's not higher right now as I'm not sure where I want to go for 8th grade. But, having used both, with a very language centered girl, and a very opposite boy, I can say that First Language Lessons was a REALLY good fit for us. I think you'd be pleasantly surprised at how painless grammar can be... And STILL be thorough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy7 Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share Posted June 17, 2009 What level of FLL would you think? 3 or 4? :) If Level 3 is best, do you still think FLL would be the pick for this situation over R&S3? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mommy7 Posted June 17, 2009 Author Share Posted June 17, 2009 :001_smile: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlockOfSillies Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 I just put in a good word for FLL in another thread, but yes, I would give FLL4 a try. Lots of review, especially of the definitions of the parts of speech. R&S3 set us back, because it was such a poor fit for my dd. She's finishing FLL4 now, and will start a 6th grade text in the fall. If you're not sure about level 4, look at level 3 before you buy, but they are both very incremental. ETA I second Editor in Chief as a supplement. Helped my dd an awful lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swimmermom3 Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 What about not doing grammar this year? The challenge may not be solved by changing curriculum. Perhaps your ds is not ready developmentally for formal grammar instruction. Do you do copy work and dictation? Give your child a simple passage for copy work. Point out one thing for grammar. "We use quotes here because someone is talking." The next day, he uses the same passage for dictation. Ask him if he remembers why the author used quotes. Sometimes when a child struggles we tend to think more (as in curriculum and practice) is better. Maybe for your ds, he can't see the single tree because the forest is blocking his view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lori D. Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 (edited) Our boys are not real big textbook/workbook learners, so we did not go the R&S route. One is an auditory-sequential learner, the other is a visual-spatial learner, and both very easily, successfully, and painless learned grammar through a variety of things we did, never taking more than 20 minutes a day, 4 days a week. In fact, they seemed to see grammar as more of a puzzle to solve than a dreaded torture. :tongue_smilie: BEST of luck in finding what works with your family! Warmest regards, Lori D. Grades 4-5 Grammar Instruction (10-15 min/day, 3 times/week) - Winston Grammar Basic (parts of speech; noun functions) Did the first 20 lessons the first year; then did the entire program the following year. We would go over the concept, and then we would do 4 sentences on the whiteboard using colored markers to mark all the parts of speech we knew. We would stick with a lesson until they really understood the concept. If we needed additional practice sentences because we took longer than 3 days on a lesson, we either repeated ones done earlier in the week, or I just pulled them from past or up-coming lessons. We NEVER did more than 4 sentences in a day. Grammar Mechanics/Editing Practice (5-10 min./day, 3 days/week) - Write Source's Write on Track (gr. 3 level concepts) -- Student Handbook and parts of the workbook - Write Source's Writer's Express (gr. 4-5 concepts) -- Student Handbook and parts of the workbook In 3rd/4th grades we used these materials to learn grammar mechanics (punctuation, capitalization, word usage, etc.) We read aloud a 1-2 pages and had them do half a workbook page. Didn't always read if it was moving on to a new concept before we'd had time to practice the concept with a few workbook pages. Also didn't do every workbook page -- selected ones that would help practice the concept. In 5th grade, instead of the Write Source, I had them use the following to practice grammar mechanics (punctuation, capitalization, word usage, etc.): - Take Five Minutes: A History Fact a Day for Editing (1 short paragraph/day) - Ready, Set, Revise (1 lesson/day -- requires writing 1 sentence; more of a writing "warm up" rather than grammar practice) Grammar Practice (10-15 min/day, 1-2 times/week) - Sonlight-type of dictations I made to reinforce grammar concepts and grammar mechanics, including having them mark capitalization and punctuation. Grammar Supplements (5 min/day, 1-2 times/week) - Schoolhouse Rock: Grammar - Mad Libs - Grammar Ad Libs - online grammar games Picked different supplements from week to week to keep them fresh and fun. Grade 6 Grammar Instruction (10-15 min/day, 3 times/week) - Winston Grammar Basic (parts of speech; noun functions) - Winston Wordworks (word usage) Fast review over 1 month of Winston Basic; then did Wordworks. Grammar Mechanics/Editing Practice (5-10 min./day, 3 days/week) - Editor in Chief - Daily Grams We did one or the other; never both on the same day. Grammar Practice (10-15 min/day, 1 time/week) - Sonlight-type of dictations I made to reinforce grammar concepts and grammar mechanics, including having them mark capitalization and punctuation. Grammar Supplements (5 min/day, 1 time/week) - Comicstrip Grammar Grades 7-8 Grammar Instruction (10 min/day, 3-4 times/week) - Winston Grammar Advanced (noun functions; modifiers) Did about 2/3 of Advanced in 7th grade; repeated entire program in 8th grade. Grammar Practice, including Mechanics/Editing Practice (10 min/day, 4 times/week) - Giggles in the Middle Grade 9 Grammar Instruction (10 min/day, 3-4 times/week) - Winston Grammar Advanced (noun functions; modifiers) Review. Grammar Practice, including Mechanics/Editing Practice (10 min/day, 4 times/week) - The Chortling Bard Edited June 17, 2009 by Lori D. added info Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caroline4kids Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 What about not doing grammar this year? The challenge may not be solved by changing curriculum. Perhaps your ds is not ready developmentally for formal grammar instruction. Do you do copy work and dictation? Give your child a simple passage for copy work. Point out one thing for grammar. "We use quotes here because someone is talking." The next day, he uses the same passage for dictation. Ask him if he remembers why the author used quotes. Sometimes when a child struggles we tend to think more (as in curriculum and practice) is better. Maybe for your ds, he can't see the single tree because the forest is blocking his view. :iagree: I am in the minority but I believe that grammar does not have to be done continually for 12 years. Spending a year working on dictation and copywork may help it all to make better sense when you tackle it later. And to throw yet another wrench in the program. I found this site and LOVE it. I bought the book just to have as a reference. The way they parse sentences looks wonderful for boys.:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Marple Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 MCT grammar/writing looks great! Thanks for the suggestion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted June 17, 2009 Share Posted June 17, 2009 MCT grammar/writing looks great! Thanks for the suggestion. Take a look at the MCT poetry series. The samples of this blew my mind. Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Marple Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I did, and I ordered that too! Your recommendation cost me a lot of $$$;) I'm hoping the writing series will inspire my son. All the "usual" homeschool programs have failed. The only thing that works is simply sitting with him and slogging through the steps. I also bought the Thomas Jefferson speech analysis book - I wanted to try it all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spy Car Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I did, and I ordered that too! Your recommendation cost me a lot of $$$;) I'm bad that way :D You know many people order (mostly) the teachers versions, that they have on the site in a home-school basic bundle? Anyway, now that you've already ordered I thought you'd appreciate know this :tongue_smilie: Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amy in CO Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 My son is 10, will be 11 in November. And he loves FLL. He has gone through all the FLL books. Level 4 does have alot of review. So it should be okay to start with. I like that it has the diagram lines drawn for you, then they are dotted, then you draw your own. So it is a gradual process. There are times that I don't make him do all the writing that is called for, one because it is so much review, and two, his hand gets tired. For example, if it says to write out the sentence and add the comma where it belongs. I will just have him write the comma in the sentence already given. Or if there are three sentences to write, I have him choose one to do. I also really like the definitions included for the parts of speech. We made a sing-song tune to go with them. So even my 14dd (who didn't get to use FLL) has learned the definitions. She goes to a one day a week enrichment program and the writing teacher was trying to tell them what a preposition was. None of the kids were understanding what he was saying. And she started singing the definition from FLL under her breath. And the teacher heard and liked it so well, he had her teach it to the whole class, he said it was a much better definition than he had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Marple Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 I did notice that recommendation on their site. So I only got the student books for the grammar and writing programs. But I still set the Visa on fire:D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elizabeth Conley Posted June 18, 2009 Share Posted June 18, 2009 And now for something completely different, Consider The Critical Thinking Co's Editor In Chief series of workbooks: http://www.criticalthinking.com/getProductDetails.do?code=p&id=09707 http://www.criticalthinking.com/searchBykeyword.do?catalog=p&searchKey=editor+in+chief Your child may prefer to approach grammar from a completely different and very practical perspective. If this works for him, he'll do just fine on standardized tests and written compositions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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