Help me understand the allure of IEW

[Country Girl]

I actually posted these questions in a post about Classical Conversations since they use IEW but figured it may fit better in its own thread. I am wanting opinoins on the type of writer IEW produces? I've sat in on a couple of vendor workshops for IEW and listened to a podcast of Andrew Pudewa and still can't quite wrap my brain around the benefits. I get the key word outline, I get that they use this to re-write the material they read, I get that they have a set of "rules" as far as adding adverbs, using different sentence openers, etc. But I've never seen any info on how a student goes from re-writing a source work to writing original papers, with info from several sources, with their own ideas. And as they get to this point, are they still encouraged to follow the checklist or do they ever get to a point where they can just write, in their own style?

 

Thanks!

[Peela]

Lol, I cant answer you because the only IEW product we have used, which we are currently working through, is Medieval History-based Writing lessons.

 

The kids (ages 13 and 14) have been working on doing a 5 paragraph essay- I am making them do it the IEW way. 3 word outlines, rewrites, even dress ups, because I want to honestly evaluate whether it works, especially for my reluctant writer.

However, he was just telling me a few days ago that he finds the 3 word outlining and rewriting from that type of outlining silly, and feels he could do a much better job by just taking notes, or doing a more normal outline, then going for it in his own way. And, I think he is probabyl right.

 

Maybe IEW works well for people who like to approach writing as a science, as a methodical, almost mathematical art, and feel intimidated by the freedom of writing. I am finding that since both my kids have their own writing voice anyway, even my reluctant writer, IEW is kind of a step backwards. I will make it work for me though and the way it is broken down into steps is helping the whole assignment not be overwhelming.

I will tweak it now I have given it a good go, but I am glad I havent used the whole program. I dont feel I need that amount of hand holding, actually, even though I appreciate the structure of a program at times.

[amtmcm]

Maybe IEW works well for people who like to approach writing as a science, as a methodical, almost mathematical art

 

Peela's comment may be correct. My DD is visual spatial (not naturally methodical) and she needs specific rules to keep her thoughts organized. We used IEW SWI-B this year and it was the best thing we could have used for her writing. Even SWB has stated that IEW is excellent at teaching structure. Prior to IEW, reading my DD's writing was like reading someone's stream of consciousness. After being forced to outline and follow rules, she formed the habit of keeping her thoughts organized and in 1 semester her writing improved tremendously. DD attended a speech class this spring and her teacher commented that her persuasive essay was good enough to enter in a contest. I give much of the credit to IEW.

 

As for the dress ups, most writing programs encourage strong verbs and colorful adjectives. IEW has a list of banned words which are boring, like "he said." Using "he whispered" or "he exclaimed" provides the reader with a better mental image and makes the writing more interesting. The dress ups may seem forced, but it's about forming a habit of considering word choice.

 

My DD also enjoyed watching Andrew Pudewa teach. He's funny and clear. He has the steps of writing broken down into manageable chunks and the student is writing for every lesson (not just filling in workbook pages).

 

We much preferred SWI and being able to watch Andrew Pudewa teach rather than the workbook approach. We tried Bible Based Writing Lessons concurrently with SWI-B and it didn't go over very well. I have looked through the Ancient History based lessons and it seems like it contains more instruction than the Bible based lessons, so maybe it is better. Or maybe my attempt to reinforce the SWI lessons with another workbook was overkill and my DD was overwhelmed. At any rate, we highly recommend IEW SWI DVD's.

Edited May 24, 2009 by amtmcm

[Heather in Neverland]

But I've never seen any info on how a student goes from re-writing a source work to writing original papers, with info from several sources, with their own ideas. And as they get to this point, are they still encouraged to follow the checklist or do they ever get to a point where they can just write, in their own style?

 

Thanks!

 

The workshops they give usually only shows you the start of the process. Further on in the units it DOES teach writing from multiple sources, etc. My ds has an enormous vocabulary but does not like writing...or didn't until we started IEW. It has definitely taught him to be a better writer and how to use his great vocabulary to his advantage. It is pretty methodical but that appeals to us left-brained people! :D And he turns out great work! Here is an example: http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=69621

 

HTH!

[SBP]

You might try cross-posting your question to the high-school board if you haven't already. Some of the parents there might have more experience with how IEW works with students who have more mature rhetorical skills. Since my children are 10 and 11, they're not at that point yet, and IEW has been good for them. My son, in particular, needs the structure that IEW teaches since his brain doesn't really do "organized" when left to its own devices. :tongue_smilie: He also would be extremely content to start every sentence in the paragraph the same way. "He went... He said... He left..." etc., or the ever-popular "And then... And then... and then..." So for him, a couple of years of IEW were really helpful. With the checklists given to him beforehand, he knew what was expected in the way of varying sentence structure, and it wasn't just Mom being a big old meanie. I'm less strict about the requirements for adverbs, adjectives, etc. because I do think the excessive use of those can lead to a contrived style. My children have pretty good vocabularies for their ages, and unless I notice problems, I'm content to let the vocabulary they use in their writing mature naturally along with them.

 

If you can get your hands on one, you might be enlightened by looking at one of the History-Based writing lessons books and reading through it. I believe CC will be using the Ancient History-Based writing book next year, but really, any of them would do. You can see how they handle the various units of IEW, including writing reports with multiple sources. Working through one of the History-Based books really helped me "get" IEW in a way I didn't after just watching TWSS.

 

Best,

 

SBP

[Rhonda in TX]

The rewriting of paragraphs is just the introduction to the program. The dress-ups are all about expanding word choice (as said by others). Many writing curriculums talk about using better words. IEW just does it in a very concrete fashion, which some kids really need.

 

As you go farther through the program, you are gathering info from one source, then multiple sources. There's a unit on writing "from the brain", rather than sources. There's 5-paragraph (and more) essays. You also do, at some point, drop the requirement of the dress-ups. The hope is that by then you will just naturally use them as needed.

 

Janice in NJ wrote an excellent post about IEW here.

[laughing lioness]

IEW teachs students the structure and style of writing (speaking and thinking).

 

IEW consists of 9 units that focus on either creative writing or essay reports, etc) writing. The program teaches the students the questions to ASK given whatever assignment they are presented with. If they have a creative writing piece the questions will be different than if they had to write a reseach report. Many writing programs give the kid a blank sheet of paper and say "write what you did on your summer vacation." the kid blanks. Report writing generally consists of plagerism for many kids even through college. IEW gives the kids source documents and says, Outline, re-wirte in your own words, check your structure, dress up.= How simple was that? No plagerizing, and the piece is about something.

 

Style techniques are taught throughout the 9 units. Dress-Ups, openers, clinshers, decorations, etc. There is always more to learn. My dd has used IEW for 8 years and did the "Rhetoric" program this year and added greatly to her reproitoire. IEW also demands that the student use a decent vocab through the use of the banned word list, strong adj and quality adverbs, etc, etc.

 

The student has a check list which can range from very simple to quite complex. This gives the student ownership. Is the title centered and underlined? Is the structure clear? Is style implemented?

 

Most young kids write simply- Subject/verb. IEW takes the student quickly and effecitivley to more complex sentence structures. You can go to the web-site and check out samples of before and after after 3 mths of the program.

[TracyR]

Wow! After reading the reviews I find myself still in limbo about what to use for a writing program. I keep swaying towards IEW though. My oldest is 11 and struggles A LOT with writing. She is very mathematically inclined so I'm wondering if a "formula" approach would actually help her.

She LOVES history so I could see her enjoying the History writing lessons too.

 

Ladies, would I need to purchase the videos first, or could I just purchase the Ancient History set and start with that assuming this will take us through IEW like its intended to be taught? Money is tight here so getting both would be a stretch. But I could swing getting the theme based writing lessons.

 

From a mom who is still thinking out loud.

[calandalsmom]

While the ancient history lessons seem to have a fairly good instructor's guide, I think you really benefit from TWSS> Cost was a huge issue for me. luckily in asking around my homeschool group I found someone who was happy to lend me the program.

 

Im watching units 8 and 9 next. Its enlightening.

 

One thing Mr Pudewa says in there somewhere is after watching his seminar you read things differently. And I do. Im reading the Horse and His Boy to my kids right now and really noticing things- like oh that's a which clause (only as CS Lewis is a sophisticated writer the "hich" is understood rather than stated.)

[Country Girl]

Thank you everyone! I really appreciate the way that you all have made the progression of the program more clear to me. It is also very helpful to hear what parts of the program have worked for some and what parts haven't.

 

Laughing lioness, thanks for pointing out the sample writings on the IEW website. I am going to check them out.

 

I am actually currently using a different writing program with my son that we enjoy. However, I'm considering joining a CC group and they use IEW. I'm wondering if we did join the CC group if we could use the benefits of the IEW program (really getting a student to think about their word choice etc) to supplement our other program. Hmmm, I'll have to think about that.

 

Thanks!

[brownie]

This sounds like the right kind of program for my science-y visual spatial disorganized son but $250? I might as well hire a tutor instead. Are you all buying both the teacher's course and the student's course? Brownie

[FlockOfSillies]

I only use the SWI, not the TWSS. My dd is also using the theme-based lessons, but you could just pick one, or buy the whole shebang used.

[laughing lioness]

You only really need to start with the TWSS - this teaches the teacher how to teach. Or, you could go with the SWI- these are DVD's of Andrew Pudewa teaching your student, so, in effect, you are paying a writing tutor. It's only $239 if you buy both together- which is a nice combo but not the most frugal way to go. We used TWSS alone for years- taught co-ops with it. There is a bit of a learning curve, but once you "get it" you will know how to write and teach writing for life.I wouldn't start with a theme book unless you borrow or buy the TWSS. The TWSS is the backbone of the program and without understanding it, the add-ons don't make as much sense.

Your CC community should show the TWSS videos to the parents. The Essential tutor will teach from a theme book.

[Country Girl]

You can go to the web-site and check out samples of before and after after 3 mths of the program.

 

I've been looking around the IEW website and can't find these. Could you point me in the right direction?

 

Thanks!

[katilac]

As for the dress ups, most writing programs encourage strong verbs and colorful adjectives. IEW has a list of banned words which are boring, like "he said." Using "he whispered" or "he exclaimed" provides the reader with a better mental image and makes the writing more interesting. The dress ups may seem forced, but it's about forming a habit of considering word choice.

 

I'll admit that this is the one factor that I can't get past in order to evaluate IEW fully; the long list of words to use in place of 'said' just makes me cringe.

 

I can see where one would want to develop the habit of considering word choice, but I just can't get on board with teaching students that having their characters moan, exclaim and whisper is key to improving their writing.

 

I've had too many college professors and editors beating me in the head with the opposite theory - - 'he said' is not boring no matter how many times it is repeated, because it is merely a background tool. They are not important; the writing that surrounds them is. One of my teachers used to say, "If your character has nothing of interest to say, it does not matter if he shouts, whispers or cries."

 

My personal preference is that writing programs should teach formal writing OR creative writing, not both. They are two completely separate creatures. All students need to learn formal writing, but certainly not creative writing.

[Country Girl]

I'll admit that this is the one factor that I can't get past in order to evaluate IEW fully; the long list of words to use in place of 'said' just makes me cringe.

 

I can see where one would want to develop the habit of considering word choice, but I just can't get on board with teaching students that having their characters moan, exclaim and whisper is key to improving their writing.

 

I've had too many college professors and editors beating me in the head with the opposite theory - - 'he said' is not boring no matter how many times it is repeated, because it is merely a background tool. They are not important; the writing that surrounds them is. One of my teachers used to say, "If your character has nothing of interest to say, it does not matter if he shouts, whispers or cries."

 

My personal preference is that writing programs should teach formal writing OR creative writing, not both. They are two completely separate creatures. All students need to learn formal writing, but certainly not creative writing.

 

 

I think your thoughts reflect some of my hesitations that I've always had with IEW when I hear about it. I especially agree with the need to learn formal writing but not necessarily creative writing. That is a big reason I've picked the program we are currently using, it focuses on academic writing.

 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[tonya in sc]

The writing is VERY formula. Granted, it's a good formula, but I can pick out an essay written by an IEW kid a mile away when I teach at our co-op. I thinks it is a good program for kids weak in writing because it does give them a formula to follow that is usually reliable and will get them through school.

All of my kids hated it. I have 1 good writer, and 3 who struggle. The good writer felt constrained beyond belief, and the strugglers saw no USE for the writing assignments. We are regrouping this year, and I am not sure just what I will use.

Just my .02.

tonya

[angela in ohio]

This sounds like the right kind of program for my science-y visual spatial disorganized son but $250? I might as well hire a tutor instead. Are you all buying both the teacher's course and the student's course? Brownie

 

No. I have been teaching IEW for many years (inlcuding co-op classes and tutoring) with just a used copy of the TWSS. You can start with the TWSS and use the materials included right in it to teach for several years, depending on age of dc. Then you can decide whether to look for your own source material or buy one of their other products to continue.

[Staci in MO]

I'll admit that this is the one factor that I can't get past in order to evaluate IEW fully; the long list of words to use in place of 'said' just makes me cringe.

 

I can see where one would want to develop the habit of considering word choice, but I just can't get on board with teaching students that having their characters moan, exclaim and whisper is key to improving their writing.

 

I've had too many college professors and editors beating me in the head with the opposite theory - - 'he said' is not boring no matter how many times it is repeated, because it is merely a background tool. They are not important; the writing that surrounds them is. One of my teachers used to say, "If your character has nothing of interest to say, it does not matter if he shouts, whispers or cries."

 

My personal preference is that writing programs should teach formal writing OR creative writing, not both. They are two completely separate creatures. All students need to learn formal writing, but certainly not creative writing.

 

:iagree: These are the same reasons why I've never considered IEW. I personally don't see any need to teach creative writing. I have spent a good part of my adult life writing fiction for fun, and I HATED creative writing assignments as a child. They were always too constrictive.

 

Any child who has a bent toward creative writing is going to do it on his own. Anything that will help someone improve their creative writing can be taught in the context of formal writing (using strong verbs, eliminating passive voice, not relying on adverbs, organizing your thoughts, etc.)

 

And the whole "she whispered, he moaned, she gasped" in place of "she said." Ugh!

[Kim in Appalachia]

I've used it on and off for years. There are things about the program I don't like, but I have seen benefits.

 

Right now my oldest is finishing up the US History Vol 2. She is writing a research paper (or super essay). The whole thing was laid out for her. She was given each topic and just needed to "fill in the blanks" for the paragraphs. She was walked through the whole process, so that instead of being intimidated by a large paper, she's almost enjoying it (as much as she'll enjoy any writing project :D) She has learned how to do MLA documentation, and has included a quote in each paragraph. The best part is that I have not had to do much with her.:001_smile: My job becomes helping her polish her writing. I need to help her create tighter sentences and better concluding sentences, but I have not had to spend a lot of time teaching her how to put this paper together. That is a big plus for this mom of 5.

 

I like IEW for middle and high school. I don't care for it for young elementary, only because it involves a lot of work from me. :tongue_smilie: My younger kids use Rod and Staff, as well as Imitations in Writing (which uses IEW techniques).

[laughing lioness]

I've heard several times that people think that IEW creates stiff and formulaic writers, who are trying to "fit in" all of the dress-ups, overkilling by using "exclaiming" etc instead of using, "he said," being able to spot an IEW user miles away.

During the learning curve that takes place during any new skill aquisition, there will probably be a period of overkill (this is called overlearning and is part of memorization). Once the student "gets" the skills, has ownership for them, the voice of the writer is clearly heard, the stylistic techniques become tools that the writer uses when appropriate. Have you read any thing by an older IEW trained student? If you are looking simply at a young student, or someone who has used IEW for a year or two, you won't be seeing the benefits of the program. If you'dl ike to read someone's blog who has been thouroughly IEW trained I'd happily recommend by dd's http://blindlyservinghim.blogspot.com/

Also, while SWB no longer recommends IEW (she has her own writing program) if you dissect her writing, it clearly follows IEW style, as all good writers do. NOT becasue IEW is the be all and end all, but becasue IEW and all good writing programs ultimatly teach the same thing.

It is easy to pick out the units that focus on creative or essay writing. There is no rule that says you have to teach all 9 units (and many of the add-ons for IEW don't). Many creative writers I know who write naturally actually need more structure than they or their parents realize. Getting words on a page isn't necessarily good writing. Focus and clarity clearly don't go hand in hand with those who write prolifically.

Country Girl, I'll pm you the samples. They were on an loop, not the web-site.

Of course IEW won't be a good fit for everyone but for many it has been an affordable, accesible great fit.

[Marsha]

What are the recommendations in the new WTM book?

[angela in ohio]

It's so funny to hear people say that they avoid IEW because of the creative writing. I have heard for years that people don't do IEW, because there isn't enough creative writing.

 

We use IEW specifically because there isn't a focus on creative writing, but instead a focus on preparing for a variety of academic writing. I have seen some more creative writing elements when I looked at the history-based lessons, but I don't use those in our homeschool.

[Mandy in TN]

I've heard several times that people think that IEW creates stiff and formulaic writers, who are trying to "fit in" all of the dress-ups, overkilling by using "exclaiming" etc instead of using, "he said," being able to spot an IEW user miles away.

During the learning curve that takes place during any new skill aquisition, there will probably be a period of overkill (this is called overlearning and is part of memorization). Once the student "gets" the skills, has ownership for them, the voice of the writer is clearly heard, the stylistic techniques become tools that the writer uses when appropriate. Have you read any thing by an older IEW trained student? If you are looking simply at a young student, or someone who has used IEW for a year or two, you won't be seeing the benefits of the program.

:iagree:I answered on the high school board, but wanted to respond here as well.

 

As a junior high student, ds had problems with paragraph organization and sentence variety. We had not used IEW and with high school essays looming I took the plunge and purchased TWSS. (granted I bought it used for half price but I still thought it was awfully expensive.) I am so glad that I did. Now ds who previously couldn't organize his thoughts well enough to produce a well formed paragraph can for CC type a 5-7 page, double-spaced, A+ paper with bibliography in one evening without having me proof read it. Ds gives Andrew Padewa full credit for this skill.

 

Ds began IEW late in JrHigh. When I bought TWSS at the local curriculum sale, I believe it was spring of his 8th grade year. He watched TWSS on his own. (instead of watching it myself and then teaching the method to ds) At our house Andrew Padewa has his own nickname. (If you have a nickname, my kids really like you.) Andrew Padewa is Ferret Man.

 

Ds went on to use Elegant Essay (which I liked except for the section on transitions).

 

However, since ds began IEW as an older student, we never followed every point religiously. Ds listened to what Andrew Padewa had to say. (Honestly, it is difficult to just watch TWSS. Andrew Padewa's speaking style very engaging and you want to interact with TWSS.) We both had wow! moments along the way. As old as ds was at the time, he was able to understand the reasons for the lessons as presented in TWSS and incorporate into his compositions valuable skills that made his writing better organized and more interesting.

 

HTH-

Mandy

Edited May 26, 2009 by Mandy in TN