My daughter just isn't learning math....

[Haiku]

The early years are too valuable to waste doing nothing.

 

 

I never suggested doing nothing. :)

[Spy Car]

I never suggested doing nothing. :)

 

Then we've found common ground :001_smile:

[Lovedtodeath]

From Bill's description, it sounds like Miquon does just as good as MUS Primer, and you might be able to stick with it without killing all joy of math. :tongue_smilie:I really wish that I had gone with it. I have the cuisenare rods and everything. ::sigh::

[nmoira]

I do think that there are some things that children are not developmentally ready to learn. Having watched my three (very different, biologically unrelated) kids go through the various stages of development and learning (my oldest is almost 15), I am convinced that sometimes, a child simply can't learn a certain concept because their brain has not matured to the that point yet.

I think there's also a question of interest. My not quite 5yo is simply not interested at this point. She'd rather spend her time drawing, creating worlds, and getting lost in role play. We do a bit of math so she because she wants to do some school like her sister, but she doesn't want to do much. She is, however, exposed to a lot indirectly, and has picked up an amazing amount of knowledge seemingly by osmosis.

 

It's ironic in a way because I frequently heard from the "kids should only play, role play, and create imaginary worlds" proponents in reaction to my oldest who was academically oriented at an early age. :lol:

[Spy Car]

It's ironic in a way because I frequently heard from the "kids should only play, role play, and create imaginary worlds" proponents in reaction to my oldest who was academically oriented at an early age. :lol:

 

Are you trying to say you can't win? :lol:

[SonshineLearner]

Hey There,

 

I wanted to suggest that you read Bluedorn's Teaching The Trivium. (At least the part about math) I love how they explain what children should do before 10. I don't do formal math with my son, at all. I have an abacus waiting, but so far only my husband and 17 year old have learned how to use it.

I have cuisinaire rods, and unicubes for my son, we count things...and we read lots of living books (livingmath.net for ideas) I love the Greg Tang's books and Cindy Neuschwander. We skip count and I've explained multiplication. We've only practiced orally. He loves to walk around saying 2=2 is 4...4+4 is 8 (on up) Children can do more orally, usually, than writing. There's also less to get confused. We also practice spelling and such...orally. He likes to write, but only when it's him copying his older sisters.

Like someone mentioned before, this is a great time to memorize poetry, Bible chapters....etc. AND, play with math manipulatives...and such..with no pressure. You can be in the car and ask, "If I gave you 5 apples and then you gave your sister 2 apples, how many would you have left?" and it's great for their memory and math skills... Just a thought...maybe you don't need another math curriculum:-)

Carrie:-)

[MitchellMom]

Your mom is going to squash your dd's spirit, if you let her! STOP all pressure - put your momma-bear foot down!!! Put your fingers in your ears when it comes to talking academics with your mom!!!!

 

I am agreeing with Spycar Bill - a child can go much farther in math understanding than most adults give credit. HOWEVER - kids don't typically COMMUNICATE their understanding in the standardized format or learn in a perfect line like the pretty scope and sequence charts.

 

Your mom is hung up on her knowing numbers through 30......you can spend today drilling her until she turns blue on 12 and 21 or you can take from where she is NOW, and move forward one step. I would be willing to give you my big toe if she doesn't know 12 from 21 at the age of 6-7:001_huh::D...the question is whether or not you are going to grow your dd's mind or feed your mother's power trip in the meantime. I'm guessing the difference might be a dd who is happily hsing and loving math or not....

 

If it were me, I would tell my mother that I will no longer communicate about dd's academics. Truly - this isn't just about numbers through 30. If you drill dd on this and she proudly presents her knowledge to grandma, grandma will think " Stink! Now I've got to find soemthing esle she can't yet do!?!":confused: It will be a never ending battle if you don't draw the line now![/quote]

 

VERY good point!!!

 

From Bill's description, it sounds like Miquon does just as good as MUS Primer, and you might be able to stick with it without killing all joy of math. :tongue_smilie:I really wish that I had gone with it. I have the cuisenare rods and everything. ::sigh::

 

 

Hmm ... what do all think I should buy for her:

MUS Primer or

Right Start or

Miquon ???

[Lovedtodeath]

If Bill is getting his directions from Miquon then I would go with that. He may just be using Miquon's materials and know how to teach it himself. Bill?

[Spy Car]

Hmm ... what do all think I should buy for her:

MUS Primer or

Right Start or

Miquon ???

 

If Bill is getting his directions from Miquon then I would go with that. He may just be using Miquon's materials and know how to teach it himself. Bill?

 

Here are some thoughts. It sounds to me like your daughter would benefit from "concrete" ways to help understand some math concepts. And that you both are feeling a little "frustrated" right now.

 

I'm not sure adding another "teacher directed" math program is really what you two need right now. I do think a set of Cuisenaire Rods (and base-10 "flats" now, or later) could be used to great advantage to help "turn the lights on". These (or the similar MUS) rods are really helpful for children this age (and ongoing).

 

A person could "intuitively" use the rods to teach concepts without help, but I was not that person before *I* was exposed to Miquon. Reading the Miquon teachers materials (including the First Grade Diary) lead to dozens of light-bulb moments for me.

 

I went from feeling a little apprehensive about how I was going to teach math to my son, to feeling inspired and confident (and relaxed). It was really a turning point for me.

 

When we started out we played a lot together with the rods. I felt "liberated" to make up my own "lab-sheets". Because it is a "discovery" method children learn to "think" on their own. This is not mommy or daddy "telling them" how to do it. Rather, as partners, parent and child play together. And learn.

 

For us, for *me*, the exposure to Miquon made all the difference in the world. But it came at least as as much from deepening my understanding of how children think and learn, and having the tools on had to help them, as from working on "lab-sheets". Not that I didn't like the lab-sheets (I do. Very much).

 

More than half of what we've done with "Miquon" are things I've made up (which is highly encouraged). I've mentioned this before, but I took an index card and put an inequalities sign (>) on it. Then I'd take two rods of different values put them on the table and let my boy put the card the correct way between them, and then read the sentence:

 

Six is "greater than" Four.

Four is "less than" Six.

 

Really simple things. But we kept it like "games", with lot's of praise. Praise works miracles. And these simple things add up. They are development appropriate, more than that they are developmentally necessary.

 

We did nothing that would cause "anxiety" and just enough challenge and positive feedback to keep my child wanting more.

 

So for a girl who is feeling "day-dreamy", not quite getting the concepts (because the presentation is too abstract) and a pair (you two) who are feeling frustrated, you might consider at least getting some rods. Perhaps getting the Miquon First Grade Diary, Lab Annotations and the Orange Book.

 

And then glean from them what you will. She would start making stacks of different rods that add up to the same value (and you can reprise a version when you get to "number bonds in Singapore 1) and "stairs". And just play.

 

To Carmen, the example I gave while "Miquon inspired" to some degree (because I understood it is a good way to do it) isn't exactly the way Miquon teaches. It is generally far less "directed" than say the way MUS would teach.

 

For me the "discovery" aspect of Miquon (assuming it works for the child, I'm aware that it is not a good fit for everyone) is a prime value. I really do think Miquon gets children thinking mathematically.

 

My own son is what I'd call a boy-boy. And when we started the exposure to the C. Rods and Miquon was a little "squirrelly". But for him the approach really focused his mind. Being met with a challenge and having the tools to figure out how to solve it lead to "calm" and confidence. Where me "talking at him" might have just lead to frustration.

 

Instead he loves math. And I love math. We had a lot of fun with it. We've drawn on a great number of other things. But starting out with Miquon (for us) was a god-send.

 

I wish you and your daughter the best :001_smile:

 

Bill

Edited May 23, 2009 by Spy Car

[FO4UR]

Ditto to Spy car:thumbup:

 

PLUS -Miquon is SO VERY different from anything your mom is pushing you to do - I think it will fell like a breathe of fresh air - and it will be easier to mentally stay above your mom's guilt trips over math. jmo

 

ETA: Reason # 3464 to refrain from discussing academics with your mom....one day, your dd will bloom. She will excell in every possible area, and then what? Your mom will guilt you over not putting her in a gifted program at your local public school. You aren't going to win this without a big FAT line in the sand. (((((HUGS)))))

 

Whatever math you choose, use your dd's stage and ability to determine when and what to push.

Edited May 23, 2009 by 3blessingmom

[Nan in Mass]

I second the Ruth Beechick suggestion. She does a good job of explaining the developmental stages of learning math. It goes something like this (my youngest is 15 so it has been awhile): first children learn to do math with real objects, then they learn to do math with a word representing each amount of objects, then they learn to do math with a written symbol representing the a word representing an amount. If you jump to the written symbol too soon, the child gets confused. So, first you do things like hold up two fingers on one hand and three on the other hand and ask how many fingers are up. The child counts the first two and then continues counting across to the other three and tells you five. When the child can do that easily, you can ask the same question without actually holding up the fingers, leaving the child to hold up the fingers. If I have two fingers and I put up three more, how many fingers do I have up? The child will probably try it with their own fingers, count them, and tell you five. After awhile, the child will be able to picture the fingers and count them in their head. Awhile after that, they will remember that 2 and 3 make 5. When that is coming easily, you can show them the symbol (numeral 2) that represents the idea of two, and the one for three, and have them practise using the symbols to represent amounts. When that is going easily, you can add the plus symbol and have them practise written math. The point is, that they have to be able to do it with real objects before they can do it in their head and they have to be able to do it in their head before they can do with with symbols representing amounts. And there is lots of overlap. A child who can use symbols for addition for numbers under 10 might be able to add hundreds in their head. You can introduce multiplication (in the form of a rectangle) and division and fractions long before the child can use the symbols for such things. Perhaps the reason it looked like your child went backwards is that she can do things mentally beyond what she is capable of with written numbers?

[Spy Car]

I forgot "breath of fresh air" :D

 

Thank you Paula!

 

Nan, the points in your post are very well-taken. The one think I'd point out about C. Rods (and where they have a huge advantage over "fingers") is that they at one-and-the-same-time tangibly represent a "value" in length, which is a great concrete form for a child's mind to grasp, and same time it is a "unified" value. Meaning, the child doesn't "count".

 

The rods take on numerical values "3" or "7" or what-ever without the need to "count" fingers or little bears every time one does an equation. This really helps move the child developmentally from a "concrete" value to one that is abstract without encouraging counting out "problems" on ones fingers. And I think this is a better mind-building model.

 

I also like how Miqoun introduces proper mathematical symbols (even fractions) early on. The "quantities" are always there at the beginning in either a "concrete" or pictorial" forms, but the "equations" are mathematically correct.

 

And no "the crocodile eats the bigger one" (for "inequalities) type stuff. The examples of "value" are alway comprehensible, but the math does not get "dumbed down" and the pathways to learning "abstractions" are opened in very ingenious ways.

Bill

Edited May 23, 2009 by Spy Car

[Karen in CO]

 

And no "the crocodile eats the bigger one" (or "inequalities) type stuff.

Bill

 

 

:iagree:Crocodiles are bad. I always use alligators to explain inequalities. :D

[Spy Car]

:iagree:Crocodiles are bad. I always use alligators to explain inequalities. :D

 

Right :D

 

Have you heard the one about the vacuum-like 9 that likes to "suck up" ones? Or the nine room houses on Decimal Street?

 

Miquon doesn't have these. And no cartoons either. And it's barely in color (only counts if substituting red, orange, or blue ink for black is "color").

 

No animals. No cute children to relate to. No kites. There are a couple "hands" to measure as I recall. The pages are basically hard drawn. Mimeograph-era technology. But the ideas IMO are genius.

 

Bill

[Lovedtodeath]

I think the 9 room houses are genius. :) I just pulled them back out to teach place value to the hundreds. And, as you may already know, I dropped MUS alpha and think it wasted a year. But decimal street? Genius!

 

I always used ducks for inequalities. I had a puppet and everything. I used to tutor math. Obviously, teaching from scratch is a big leap from tutoring.:tongue_smilie:

Edited May 23, 2009 by Lovedtodeath

[Karen in CO]

I have heard that and it drives me batty - but I guess I didn't know that everyone wants to be be a "10."

 

You have a son don't you? My girls make cute out of everything. They do their math in color and draw cute animals on the pages, but that is something the older one loves about MEP. It actually tells her to color answers. She prefers math that she gets to color instead of math books that scream color at her.

 

I do love how early primer numbers are introduced in Miquon. When we came across those (in Orange, maybe), I realized how much easier my later math life would have been if I had been introduced to prime numbers when I was first learning to multiply and divide. Its little genius things like that that I love about Miquon. Those things that just make so much sense that you wonder why everybody doesn't do it that way.

[Karen in CO]

Ducks? No, alligators. You get to draw teeth inside the symbols, and they get to gobble up stuff.

[stripe]

Frankly I don't see what's wrong with the crocodile eating the smaller one or whatever, but one of my favorite jokes as a kid had a punch line involving when seven ate nine. Har har!

 

I passed up the chance to buy a used Miquon set. Every once in a while I wonder if I should look at it. I think I just don't like the name. And something about cuisinare rods annoys me -- I am not sure what -- but I do own a set. My kids played with them one day, and one somehow got a bite (a rod, that is). The last time my kids used them, they built things out of them, that had nothing to do with math. And they love to build stuff out of unifix cubes. Montessori teachers would not be amused.

Edited May 23, 2009 by stripe

[Spy Car]

I think the 9 room houses are genius. :) I just pulled them back out to teach place value to the hundreds.

 

I always used ducks for inequalities. I had a puppet and everything. I used to tutor math. Obviously, teaching from scratch is a big leap from tutoring.:tongue_smilie:

 

One just has to to gauge ones teaching style (and ones audience). I'd do almost anything to help my son learn, with the possible expection of donning a hand-puppet :lol:

 

I jest. You know, I'm for whatever works. The kid needs a hand-puppet, we get a hand-puppet. But if the values can be "concrete", the methods simple, and the equations free of non-mathematical elements, better for me.

 

That said, the Singapore 1 textbook has me sitting making up stories about bunnies in their burrows and clowns with their balloons, and I'm just grinning and bearing it (for now). What-ever works.

 

But what I like about Miquon, is that "the math" is actually the "fun part". I'm not sure if that makes sense, but the challenge and problem solving rewards are high. And the joy of more-or-less "pure math" is appealing to me and my son (whose mind seems to drift durning "bunny-story time).

 

Now if we could get the bunnies to poke out the eye of a big cyclops, maybe then... :tongue_smilie:

 

Anyway I just did not want to leave a false impression with you that MUS and Miquon were highly similar in style. They both use rods (which is good). But other-wise they are not that similar. Which is actually a good thing, as I think there are children who might not thrive with Miquon who might really gain from something like MUS.

 

Who knows what sort of child your going to get? Mine turned out to be a lot like me. But if he had different needs, we'd be talking "Decimal Street". KWIM?

 

I just truly believe the early exposure to something like Miquon, a comprehensible and for lack of a better term "pure math" program at an early age can actually help "make" a mathy child. That the activities and the tools actually help wire the brain in a fashion that "math" becomes a "native language" for the child (if you will). I really believe that.

 

Bill

[Spy Car]

Frankly I don't see what's wrong with the crocodile eating the smaller one or whatever, but one of my favorite jokes as a kid had a punch line involving when seven ate nine. Har har!

 

I passed up the chance to buy a used Miquon set. Every once in a while I wonder if I should look at it. I think I just don't like the name. And something about cuisinare rods annoys me -- I am not sure what -- but I do own a set. My kids played with them one day, and one somehow got a bite (a rod, that is). The last time my kids used them, they built things out of them, that had nothing to do with math. And they love to build stuff out of unifix cubes. Montessori teachers would not be amused.

 

The name, if you don't know it (I didn't until I called the school a few weeks ago) is pronounced ME-quon. Not Mick-wan (as I long mis-pronounced it).

 

It's named for a private school in Miquon, Pennsylvania and is of Native American origin. Try and hate the name now :D

 

I don't know what problem Montessori teachers would have, but a dyed-in-the-wool Miquon teacher would never be happier than at those moments a child was using rods to build things. They would say everything you can build has something to do with math. Durn hippies :tongue_smilie:

 

I find a "middle way".

 

Bill

[Storm Bay]

I agree with Bill. One thing I liked about Math U See in the early stages is that it called the numbers from 11-19 onety-one, onety-two, onety-three, and called names like eleven and thirteen nicknames. It sounds silly, but it's a whole lot easier if all the numbers are named from left to right. Otherwise, 13-19 are named right to left which can be very confusing, particularly in 5 year olds who many not know their right from the left. A couple of mine wanted to write the numbers in the order they said them, so 13 was written 31. Saying onety-three fixed that, and they had no trouble making the transition to the real names of the numbers, which we used as nicknames, later on. Of course, some kids take a whole lot longer to learn their right hand from their left than they do how to name those numbers. MUS also used rods, but a different type.

 

You don't need to use MUS to use those terms, but he teaches building larger numbers than 9 the same way that Bill described.

 

All that said, you really don't need to be overly worried about that at 5 as it might simply be developmental. I also highly recommend Brain Gym and Smart Moves: Why Learning is Not All in Your Head. This last book is good for any student, regardless of academic ability or challenges. My ds learned to count beyond 10 after 2 days with Brain Gym and it was not a coincidence. While he's basically mathy, the left to right thing is getting him confused with long division. All other multi-digit things are done from right to left, but long division is left to right. Also, it has all those steps and he has to remember them all plus get that left to right thing down. He can do it after a few tries, but if we do something else for a few days and get back to it, we have to review all of that.

Edited May 23, 2009 by Karin

[Matryoshka]

I bought Miquon with a lot of enthusiasm. However, I have to admit that I never made it through the huge Annotations book. I am apparently a very sequential thinker (who knew?) and the non-linear style of Miquon (pages don't have to be done in any particular order) had me at a loss as to where to start with it. There is virtually no instruction on the pages. Now I'm guessing if I'd read the big book, I'd probably have known better what to do, but reality said I wasn't going to get to a math program where I had to read the whole big book first (this may have had something to do with twins and a third just 2 1/2 years behind). I wanted to be able to open the book, do the page, and then do the next.

 

However, for something more hands-on/concrete for the young ages, if Miquon ends up not being your cup of tea, I'd bet Right Start A might be just the thing. It also has a big book, but I think you only have to read and do that lesson, not read and absorb the whole methodology first. And while I like rods (I had Cuisenaire, but I honestly used the MathUSee blocks more - without the rest of the program :tongue_smilie:), the AL Abacus is just a wondrous thing. After I bought that, I ditched the blocks and rods (but I admit I never bought the full RS program, even though I was sorely tempted - but that was because Singapore had already been working for us for years and I decided if it ain't broke...). If I had discovered RS when my kids were 5, it might've been a different story.

 

I know Miquon is a great program and can get great results (heck, that's why I bought it - and besides all the people here endorsing it, I know lots of people IRL who love it), I just wanted to point out the obvious - that not all programs click with everyone, and to know your teaching style going in. Miquon is very, very open-ended, and if you're comfortable with that it's great. If you want something more guided but still concrete and game/manipulative oriented, RS is a good option.

[Storm Bay]

Anyway I just did not want to leave a false impression with you that MUS and Miquon were highly similar in style. They both use rods (which is good). But other-wise they are not that similar. Which is actually a good thing, as I think there are children who might not thrive with Miquon who might really gain from something like MUS.

 

 

Bill

 

 

Right. Miquon was a disaster for my ds, but MUS has been a good addition to Singapore Math. Now I've gone ahead and added MEP, but I'm a math junky. Miquon would have been fabulous for my 11 yo, but we didn't have it back then. The rods are different. We did use the rods we bought for Miquon with Singapore Math for a while to stop ds from counting during addition. The bunnies, etc, in the early SM books facilitated counting for him. He's completely comfortable with both rod systems, but we no longer use rods.

[Spy Car]

I bought Miquon with a lot of enthusiasm. However, I have to admit that I never made it through the huge Annotations book. I am apparently a very sequential thinker (who knew?) and the non-linear style of Miquon (pages don't have to be done in any particular order) had me at a loss as to where to start with it. There is virtually no instruction on the pages. Now I'm guessing if I'd read the big book, I'd probably have known better what to do, but reality said I wasn't going to get to a math program where I had to read the whole big book first (this may have had something to do with twins and a third just 2 1/2 years behind). I wanted to be able to open the book, do the page, and then do the next.

 

However, for something more hands-on/concrete for the young ages, if Miquon ends up not being your cup of tea, I'd bet Right Start A might be just the thing. It also has a big book, but I think you only have to read and do that lesson, not read and absorb the whole methodology first. And while I like rods (I had Cuisenaire, but I honestly used the MathUSee blocks more - without the rest of the program :tongue_smilie:), the AL Abacus is just a wondrous thing. After I bought that, I ditched the blocks and rods (but I admit I never bought the full RS program, even though I was sorely tempted - but that was because Singapore had already been working for us for years and I decided if it ain't broke...). If I had discovered RS when my kids were 5, it might've been a different story.

 

I know Miquon is a great program and can get great results (heck, that's why I bought it - and besides all the people here endorsing it, I know lots of people IRL who love it), I just wanted to point out the obvious - that not all programs click with everyone, and to know your teaching style going in. Miquon is very, very open-ended, and if you're comfortable with that it's great. If you want something more guided but still concrete and game/manipulative oriented, RS is a good option.

 

Did you read The First Grade Diary? I always try to stress this work when discussing Miquon, because I believe that's where you find the heart of the program. And many times it is not sold (or purchased) as part of a "bundle" and without it I think too many parents "don't get it". I didn't really. I consider The First Grade Diary really essential to Miquon (not "optional" as it is often described). For me it is what made Miquon *click*.

 

The Lab Annotations book doesn't need to be read through to start. Lab Annotations contains information on all the "lab-sheets" in the student books (roughly speaking this is the "teacher's manual"). Especially starting out, you need to read the corresponding pages to get the point. After a while most of it is second nature. Parents learn too!

 

I didn't suggest Right Start A because the OP is already doing Singapore. And this did not seem like a good time to "add" another teacher led program. And Right Start is very teacher led.

 

That said, Right Start has much to recommend it. I steal many good ideas from RS. The games are great. The abacus is an interesting tool, and one I think that will be increasingly valuable over time. But (for us) the C. Rods were more freeing (he could use the rods on his own, and can not really do that fully with the abacus yet). And at an early age the C. Rods better represent value (once you get past 10) since a hundred or a ten or a "unit" is just a ball on a "different valued wire". This is a developmental leap over seeing one rod is longer than another and that 10 tens equal a 100 "flat". KWIM?

 

So many interesting math tools.

 

Bill

Edited May 24, 2009 by Spy Car

[TraceyS/FL]

Right :D

 

Have you heard the one about the vacuum-like 9 that likes to "suck up" ones? Or the nine room houses on Decimal Street?

 

Miquon doesn't have these. And no cartoons either. And it's barely in color (only counts if substituting red, orange, or blue ink for black is "color").

 

No animals. No cute children to relate to. No kites. There are a couple "hands" to measure as I recall. The pages are basically hard drawn. Mimeograph-era technology. But the ideas IMO are genius.

 

Bill

 

I just have to say as a parent of a child that has had multiple math studies done on her genetic condition and the impacts it has on math learning.... those MUS ways of teaching are PURE GENIUS. Truly. I never thought this child would be able to do math without a calculator.... and she might only be in Alpha but she "gets" solving for the unknown. And isn't afraid of math facts, it's actually amazing (and, this is a child that could not count past 20 until she was about 8).

 

My oldest was a Miquon drop out - but they all 3 love to build with the rods! :tongue_smilie:

[Matryoshka]

Did you read The First Grade Diary? I always try to stress this work when discussing Miquon, because I believe that's where you find the heart of the program. And many times it is not sold (or purchased) as part of a "bundle" and without it I think too many parents "don't get it". I didn't really. I consider I]The First Grade Diary[/i] really essential to Miquon (not "optional" as it is often described). For me it is what made Miquon *click*.

 

No, I don't think I even had that book - as you pointed out, it wasn't stressed as being "essential".

 

The Lab Annotations book doesn't need to be read through to start. Lab Annotations contains information on all the "lab-sheets" in the student books (roughly speaking this is the "teacher's manual"). Especially starting out, you need to read the corresponding pages to get the point. After a while most of it is second nature. Parents learn too!

 

Yes - at that point in my homeschooling journey I was reading tons about all kinds of methodologies (primarily Waldorf and Charlotte Mason - neither of which figure prominenty in my current homeschooling, ironically), and just looking at that Annotations book overwhelmed me - so I tried to just go with the Orange book and I kind of gave up.

 

It may have ended differently for me if Sing. Earlybird hadn't been so easy to use and my kids hadn't done so well with it.

 

And RS also has a honking teacher's manual, now that I think of it.

 

I didn't suggest Right Start A because the OP is already doing Singapore. And this did not seem like a good time to "add" another teacher led program. And Right Start is very teacher led.

 

Yes, another reason I didn't end up picking it, as I was already using Singapore. I guess I was thinking she might want to try RS instead of Singapore for a while, at least till she gets those concepts down that are getting them stuck. Miquon could also work for that, of course.

 

Rods better represent value (once you get past 10) since a hundred or a ten or a "unit" is just a ball on a "different valued wire". This is a developmental leap over seeing one rod is longer than another and that 10 tens equal a 100 "flat". KWIM?

 

Well, that's true of the flip side of the abacus where you have place value, but the front side shows relative value very well up to 100. I like the way it teaches you to "see" 5's - both 5 ones and 5 tens, with the different colored beads.

 

Although I'm not one to say anything about too many manipulatives, I may well have bought some version of every kind ever invented, and maybe two versions of some for good measure. :blush: I have something like four or five different kinds of fraction manipulatives - all almost never touched, as my kids managed to "get" fractions without much manipulative help at all. Go figure.

 

So many interesting math tools.

 

Truer words were never spoken... :D

[Spy Car]

I just have to say as a parent of a child that has had multiple math studies done on her genetic condition and the impacts it has on math learning.... those MUS ways of teaching are PURE GENIUS. Truly. I never thought this child would be able to do math without a calculator.... and she might only be in Alpha but she "gets" solving for the unknown. And isn't afraid of math facts, it's actually amazing (and, this is a child that could not count past 20 until she was about 8).

 

My oldest was a Miquon drop out - but they all 3 love to build with the rods! :tongue_smilie:

 

I can see this. As I said in another post, if my child had different needs I would have been very grateful to have MUS as an option. Especially if a child had any sort of learning challenge I think this program could potentially be a "life-saver".

 

If you would care to share more about your experience with your son and MUS, I love to hear about it, either via PM or in this thread. It's very exciting to me hearing about how finding the right methods can reach children.

 

At the end of the day I really believe what-ever works for an individual child is what is "best". There is no "one-size fits all" math program. But we are fortunate there are so many good ones that help children with different learning styles excel.

 

Bill

Edited May 24, 2009 by Spy Car

[mlbuchina]

I am agreeing with Spycar Bill - a child can go much farther in math understanding than most adults give credit. HOWEVER - kids don't typically COMMUNICATE their understanding in the standardized format or learn in a perfect line like the pretty scope and sequence charts.

 

:iagree: My dd(6 yrs today!) started doing Saxon 1 about 4 months ago. She is flying through math at this point. However, she will still try to WRITE some of the numbers reversed and even backwards. She recognizes them all, and can count to infinity, but WRITING them is different. She still reverses some of her letters, too.

 

My dd(4 next month) sits in and does some of the manipulatives with us. Or, she will be in the floor looking at books or coloring while we are doing lessons. I don't think she is paying attention, but at the strangest times she will reveal the knowledge that she is soaking up. She blows my mind sometimes.

 

I also agree that you will have to tell Mom to not talk about school. That is just too much pressure. Especially when you are in the process of learning, too!

[Spy Car]

No, I don't think I even had that book - as you pointed out, it wasn't stressed as being "essential".

 

I frequently see posts on this board that suggest the First Grade Diary isn't "essential". I'm trying to change that impression :D

 

....just looking at that Annotations book overwhelmed me - so I tried to just go with the Orange book and I kind of gave up.

 

LOL. Did anyone mention this is the "teachers guide for the whole multi-years 6 part series? :lol:

 

And RS also has a honking teacher's manual, now that I think of it.

 

Don't look at CSMP math. If memory serves the teachers guide for kindergarten is over 700 pages.

 

Yes, another reason I didn't end up picking it, as I was already using Singapore. I guess I was thinking she might want to try RS instead of Singapore for a while, at least till she gets those concepts down that are getting them stuck. Miquon could also work for that, of course.

 

I like both, but they seem so different. How can I say this? To completely over-generalize Miquon is great for getting the mind to expand and to promote creativity and RS at sharpening that thinking up, making thing more orderly. It's just with a currently "day-dreamy" kid I might run with for awhile, rather than try to fight it. Does that make sense?

 

Well, that's true of the flip side of the abacus where you have place value, but the front side shows relative value very well up to 100. I like the way it teaches you to "see" 5's - both 5 ones and 5 tens, with the different colored beads.

 

I do love the seeing in groups of 5 (or numbers as 5 +?) aspect of the Al abacus. And eventually it will be good for regrouping. I still like the rods for showing (4) hundreds (7) tens (5) units, as in my sig of the moment.

 

Although I'm not one to say anything about too many manipulatives, I may well have bought some version of every kind ever invented, and maybe two versions of some for good measure. :blush: I have something like four or five different kinds of fraction manipulatives - all almost never touched, as my kids managed to "get" fractions without much manipulative help at all. Go figure.

 

What-ever works, what-ever works :D

 

Bill

[Storm Bay]

At the end of the day I really believe what-ever works for an individual child is what is "best". There is no "one-size fits all" math program. But we are fortunate there are so many good ones that help children with different learning styles excel.

 

Bill

:iagree::iagree::iagree: We're particularly fond of Mr. Demme here, even if those decimal street houses ended up getting lost and not working nearly as well for ds as for dd. And even if it wasn't meaty enough for our mathy needs. I think Mr. Demme has done brilliant work, and that there are some dc that this course is a lifesaver for. Not to mention how fun those manipulatives really are--you can do things with them you can't do with the C-rods. I can't tell you how many times my dc played with them when they weren't supposed to and were learning all the while.

 

The funny thing is that I bought & resold a used set of RightStart a few years ago because it was far too teacher intensive for me. Now I'm sitting down with ds and doing MEP with him which, to me, is very teacher intensive. I haven't done a lot of math games, but we've been doing the boom! game with MEP. Ds loved it the first day, but not the second. It's forcing him to think about some of what we've already been doing with SM & MUS in new ways. In his case, this is very good, since he doesn't think of math outside the box the way he does in some other areas of his life. My dd's think outside the box more naturally; he does more in Physics, but not in math as much. At least not yet. Of course, he learns differently than they do, and they don't learn exactly alike, either.

 

It's late, and I may be merely babbling now, so I'll sign off.

[Storm Bay]

 

Don't look at CSMP math. If memory serves the teachers guide for kindergarten is over 700 pages.

What-ever works, what-ever works :D

 

Bill

 

 

Dd is doing CSMP and I don't have the teacher's guide. She just looks at it and figures out what to do for the most part. Of course, she's doing the gr 6 one and has already finished SM 6. CSMP is simply fun for her, and since the Russian Math is challenging her, I let CSMP be the "easy" math--she's still learning new skills and seeing some things in new ways.

[stripe]

The name, if you don't know it (I didn't until I called the school a few weeks ago) is pronounced ME-quon. Not Mick-wan (as I long mis-pronounced it).

I was saying "Mee-kwan." Definitely not Mick-wan.

It's named for a private school in Miquon, Pennsylvania and is of Native American origin. Try and hate the name now :D

I don't hate the name; nor do I hate Native Americans. But "Miquon" just isn't suggestive of a math program to me. Randomly appropriating a Native American name for a math program sort of reminds me of those themed summer camps.

 

I have a similarly unnamed aversion to MEP. Something about all those worksheets in the first section I downloaded, and the idea of printing off all those lessons! I keep meaning to go back with a more open mind.

I don't know what problem Montessori teachers would have, but a dyed-in-the-wool Miquon teacher would never be happier than at those moments a child was using rods to build things. They would say everything you can build has something to do with math. Durn hippies :tongue_smilie:

I'm no Montessori expert but I thought one wasn't supposed to play with their materials out of turn. The children are each supposed to replicate what the teacher has demonstrated.

[Spy Car]

I was saying "Mee-kwan." Definitely not Mick-wan.

 

Then, once again, you prove to have more on the ball than I have :D

 

those themed summer camps[/url].

 

Well technically Lore Rasmussen only appropriated the name of the school' date=' which appropriated its name from the town the school is located, and it was the town that appropriated the name from the Native Americans.

 

I suggest you call this program "The Math Lab".

 

I have a similarly unnamed aversion to MEP. Something about all those worksheets in the first section I downloaded, and the idea of printing off all those lessons! I keep meaning to go back with a more open mind.

 

Do go back with an "open mind". The Mathematics Enhancement Programme materials are outstanding (even if they don't spell well :tongue_smilie:).

 

Seriously. You need MEP in your tool-box. The "my brain hurts" pure-fun of MEP is hard to over-estimate. And the bloody thing is free for the printing. Sheez!

 

I'm no Montessori expert but I thought one wasn't supposed to play with their materials out of turn. The children are each supposed to replicate what the teacher has demonstrated.

 

If you are asking me, I haven't the foggiest!

 

The Miquon folks want them to play (more than I do). Ours are reserved for creative math play, but aren't used for building blocks. They're still fun!

 

Bill

Edited May 24, 2009 by Spy Car

[stripe]

So do you think the first grade diary is the place to start? The only one I've seen is the lab annotations; due to a confusion (or something) with my interlibrary loan request, I was only sent that one. (I'm still not convinced.)

 

I am really not into workbooks for young kids, so I am looking for something else. (My kids like them fine, I think.)

[Spy Car]

So do you think the first grade diary is the place to start? The only one I've seen is the lab annotations; due to a confusion (or something) with my interlibrary loan request, I was only sent that one. (I'm still not convinced.)

 

I am really not into workbooks for young kids, so I am looking for something else. (My kids like them fine, I think.)

 

In the First Grade Diary Lore Lore Rasmussen takes the reader through a school year with a group of children using the first level of Miquon. She shows the typical problems children have (such as transposing numbers) and offers gentle means of helping them. This is less a "model" book than one which combines practical ideas and advances a philosophy of teaching.

 

For me it was "mind altering", in that I felt a new confidence in my ability to do the job. It inspired to make math fun, challenging, and developmentally appropriate even when not using "Miquon". And freed me to trust myself.

 

This is not going to me as "meaty" as something like Parker & Baldridge. You might read the First Grade Diary and wonder what I was going on about. Quite possible. But I don't think you're the typical "target audience". KWIM?

[Lovedtodeath]

I like the idea of MEP, but when I looked at it, I had no clue how to teach it. It has a teacher's manual? What language is it in? Educationalese?:D

[Spy Car]

I like the idea of MEP, but when I looked at it, I had no clue how to teach it. It has a teacher's manual? What language is it in? Educationalese?:D

 

MEP has "lesson plans" for teachers and "practice books" (workbooks) for students. It is based on a Hungarian math program, so is a little different that what we might be used to at first glance.

 

But you get used to it. MEP is a very (very) interesting math program.

 

Bill

[stripe]

This is not going to me as "meaty" as something like Parker & Baldridge. You might read the First Grade Diary and wonder what I was going on about. Quite possible. But I don't think you're the typical "target audience". KWIM?

Maybe it would be a good complement to Parker & Baldridge. P&B is about the applicable math (theory) that relates to elementary math as taught by the Primary Maths texts (highly dependent on using those texts, studying how they present things, etc). But not particularly activities or anything of the sort.

 

I need more help in presenting elementary topics than, say, algebra.

 

Anyway, I'll try to find a copy. I'll let you know what I think!

[Storm Bay]

I like the idea of MEP, but when I looked at it, I had no clue how to teach it. It has a teacher's manual? What language is it in? Educationalese?:D

 

 

Bill said it. I use it, but I'm mathy. Or at least, I used to be many years ago. When I tried to help my dd with Diophantine equations, my brain seems to have completely shut off. I'm blaming allergies at the moment, but we'll see.

[Storm Bay]

. But "Miquon" just isn't suggestive of a math program to me.

:lol::lol: I had an immediate and adverse reaction to MUS because I hate gimmicky spelling (Math-U-See) with a passion (not a stickler, no, not me ;)). But there are many things I like about it once I got past that and tried it with my vs dd. Then I added SM to get more of what I think of as meat in math.

[Spy Car]

Maybe it would be a good complement to Parker & Baldridge. P&B is about the applicable math (theory) that relates to elementary math as taught by the Primary Maths texts (highly dependent on using those texts, studying how they present things, etc). But not particularly activities or anything of the sort.

 

I need more help in presenting elementary topics than, say, algebra.

 

Anyway, I'll try to find a copy. I'll let you know what I think!

 

The First Grade Diary is very warm and human.

 

Which is a nice contrast to the initial pages in the "Orange Book". I'll admit I had an initial shock when I saw them. What's this? An IQ test for space-aliens? How in the world do I teach this?

 

What do these squiggles even mean???

 

Really! I had a moment of "panic". When my blood-pressure and heart rate returned to near-normal I saw these "strange shapes" were just "objects".

 

You could have 3 very different and "crazy looking" shapes: a zloid, a splot, and a zimzab [my names:tongue_smilie:] instead of three identical "stars" or "ducks". They were still "objects". No big deal.

 

And a child who sees this at 4 or 5 is not going to "panic" later in life when he or she sees other things that might appear daunting to others. To *me*, for example.

 

In the diary you have a warm encounter with a great teacher. It gives a humanity to Miquon. You see how some kids excel, how some need help with this or that. Pick up some tips. More importantly (for me) realize *I* can think of my own ways to teach the same things in other ways (or expropriate ideas for doing so from others).

 

For me, it was just what I needed at a time I was worried about being an inadequate math teacher. And I don't feel that way anymore.

 

Bill

[Matryoshka]

Which is a nice contrast to the initial pages in the "Orange Book". I'll admit I had an initial shock when I saw them. What's this? An IQ test for space-aliens? How in the world do I teach this?

 

What do these squiggles even mean???

 

 

 

:lol::lol::lol: Well, there ya go, Bill, I think you just summed up my entire reaction to Miquon... I looked at those first pages in the Orange book, panicked and fled! :leaving: Guess I should've read that Diary... :tongue_smilie:

 

I feel better that you had that initial reaction too, though. :001_smile:

[Spy Car]

:lol::lol:: Well, there ya go, Bill, I think you just summed up my entire reaction to Miquon... I looked at those first pages in the Orange book, panicked and fled! :leaving: Guess I should've read that Diary... :tongue_smilie:

 

I feel better that you had that initial reaction too, though. :001_smile:

 

I'll tell you no lies. When I saw page A2 I almost lost consciousness, and broke out in a cold sweat (maybe it was actually a warm sweat, all I know is there was sweat, and a lot of it :D).

 

The "explanation" for this incomprehensible gibberish is actually in the "Lab Annotations" book. And Miquon becomes increasing clear and simple once you get past the initial shock. It's totally "old home" now (and was very quickly). I'd hate for anyone to get the mis-impression that teaching Miquon is "hard". It is anything but. It is really easy and fun.

 

But if you open the Orange book and feel like you've entered another dimension (you have :D). But in no time it all makes perfect sense.

 

I should note there is a 3rd teachers book (why?) called Notes to Teachers. This thin little volume should have been the "forward" to Lab Annotations, but it is not. :banghead:

 

And this little book has useful information. Do we like spending another $6? No. Not really. Should we? Yes. Begrudgingly, yes.

 

Bill

[sagira]

I had a similar reaction to the sheets when I first saw them (great description. Spy Car), but now ds and I enjoy them. They are.. believe it or not, relaxing, and ds learns through discovery. It breaks the routine for us. We use a mastery or traditional, straightforward math program, MCP Math, as our spine and Miquon as a supplement. I was blown away by the First Grade Diary. I'm not a math person myself, but reading it made me think about the possibilities, and that I could learn to be mathematical in my thinking as well. We like it so much in fact that I might use it every day instead of every other day. We'll see. We do math in 15-minute increments, a la Charlotte Mason in the younger years (ds is starting First Year in September at exactly six years old :)).

 

I'm surprised Miquon is not mentioned more often as a good math program. It's nontraditional, but this may be just what some of us may need. I like the Teacher's Manual and guidelines with MCP and think these two complement each other nicely.

 

Ds likes to build stairs out of his cuisenaire rods.

[Elizabeth Conley]

Wow folks! 10 pages.

 

I admit I didn't read all 10 pages. On the first page I read about a 5 year old who confused 12 with 21, and an 11 year old who "dropped the zero" when adding, so that 160 became 16.

 

Manipulatives are the way to go here. Perhaps these children should count and add with the aid of manipulatives for a while. They need a tangible connection between the numbers and the meanings. Base ten math blocks are one system, but there are more colorful and less expensive versions out there too.

If you buy the base 10 blocks and book, you'll be able to use them into the middle school years. They have broad applications.

 

 

http://www.homeschooldiscount.com/items.asp?Cc=0113-B10&iTpStatus=1&Tp=

 

http://rainbowresource.com/prodlist.php?sid=1243198051-446414&subject=10&category=2374

 

With regard to the Kindergärtner, if I were you I'd wait for 1st grade before worrying about the 12 vs 21 issue. If she can count by rote to 100, answer "how many" up to 20 and identify basic shapes and colors, you're golden. Kindergärtners seem to love cute little counting bears, worms, frogs, bugs etc. They also like to use an abacus.

 

http://rainbowresource.com/product/Wooden+Abacus/018439/1243198051-446414

 

I slightly prefer the abacus, because there are no small parts to lose and it is useful for more years. That being said, counting bears with cups are useful for patterning and sorting, which are also considered Kindergarten subjects.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Eureka-COUNTING-BEARS-W-CUPS/dp/B0006PKZBI