You don’t need "expertise"! If you can ask good questions, and you can listen to your child’s answers with genuine interest, and keep the discussion going, you will be amazed at the insights your kids will come up with on their own — with no “study guide,†no list of “comprehension questions,†no pre-prepared analysis. As a parent, you can give your kids something far more precious than “expertise,†something they will rarely if ever find in school or college: freedom to explore and think and bounce ideas off someone who actually cares what they think and is genuinely interested in their ideas. DS and I have had some truly wonderful discussions about literature and history simply by following up on his comments and questions. He recently tired of one series because he said the plot had gotten so predictable he knew in advance what would happen and how every one would react, so I asked him what he thought makes a book predictable, and how other books, the ones that kept him “hooked†right to the end, had avoided that problem? That led to a really interesting discussion about characterization, and how much more enjoyable books are when the characters seem real and complex and don’t always react in predictable ways, and that led to a discussion about how some plots seem to be driven by the characters themselves, whereas in other books you can tell that the author outlined the plot and then “just made the characters act it out like puppets instead of real people making choices.†I don’t think I would have ever gotten that kind of insight from him by assigning a book he wasn’t interested in and and having him answer an “essay prompt†about characterization. The idea of formal “narrations†totally turned him off to reading, and yet he will follow me around the house summarizing the latest events in the book he’s reading — including why he thinks a character acted a certain way, what he thinks might happen next, etc. He will bookmark paragraphs and dialog that he finds particularly interesting or effective or funny and read them aloud to me, and then we can talk about how well that sentence paints a picture of the setting, or how the sounds of the words create an eery feeling, or how the dialog tells you something really interesting or surprising about the character. And then we can play with it — let’s replace all the adjectives with really cliche descriptions. Let’s change the metaphors into similes — what happens? How can we change the dialog to make the character sound sarcastic instead of hurt, or vice versa. Etc. But none of this is “school work†of course, it’s just casual conversation at the breakfast table. ;) Jackie

Athenaze is not immersion in the way that Lingua Latina is; I'd say that it's comparable to Ecce Romani (one of the co-authors of Athenaze also wrote Ecce Romani). I've seen Ecce Romani described as the most grammar-heavy of the "blended" programs, if that makes sense. And FWIW, Ester Maria, who makes no secret of her disdain for immersion programs, recommends Athenaze as the best of the Attic Greek programs. ;) The grammar is definitely there (e.g. you get through all three declensions in the first half of the first book), but there is also a lot of translation to put the grammar and vocab in context. The translation passages are a "made up" story (which some people object to), but DS loves the story and the fact that he gets to read and translate whole paragraphs of Greek from day 1. I think that really helps to motivate kids. And each chapter does include a few sentences of Greek from original sources, as well as the "early reader" type passages. Jackie

I don't think a technical knowledge of English grammar is really necessary even for writers — I think many writers write well because they're voracious readers, not because they did years and years of diagramming. I've worked as a professional editor, I've published academic papers and a book, and I can certainly recognize and appreciate beautiful writing, but I never studied formal grammar in school. OTOH, I think a thorough technical knowledge of grammar is very helpful for learning other languages. I think DS would find Greek much more difficult if he didn't understand the grammatical terminology — it's hard to understand the difference between a transitive and intransitive verb in Greek if you don't even know what they are in English. BUT... DS did not do years and years of grammar drill. He did an intensive grammar course over the summer with Lukeion, and now he knows it. He can tell you what a gerund and a participle are, he knows a predicate nominative from a predicate adjective, he knows all 12 tenses and can rattle off the future perfect progressive form of any verb you want, etc. And he learned it all in 4 weeks. As for applying grammar to writing, add me to the list of Image Grammar fans. One reason that so many schools have dropped grammar is that formal grammar instruction did not seem to transfer to better writing. I think Image Grammar does a great job of showing kids how to use grammatical tools to create wonderful writing, as opposed to just showing them how to label words with technical terms. So that's the approach I plan to take with my kids — an intensive course in formal grammar as a prelude to foreign language study, and then teaching applied grammar the way Image Grammar does, in the context of teaching writing. Jackie

:lol::lol::lol: That chart is AWESOME! Jackie

I'm not familiar with Henle, but I would say Athenaze is not as difficult (or boring :tongue_smilie:) as Wheelock's. DS was at about the same place your DD is before he started the class (knew the alphabet, knew a bit of vocab from the Galore Park book). I like Athenaze a lot, it's got just the right amount of grammar and vocab in each chapter, plus lots of translation (the story is quite fun). You can get the teacher's manual at Rainbow Resource — I looked all over for that thing before someone here kindly pointed me to RR. I'm not sure how old your DD is, but to give you an idea of pace: The college pace would be 2 chapters* per week, finishing each book in one semester. The HS pace (DS's class) does one chapter per week and finishes each book in one year. But you could easily slow that down for a younger learner and spend 2 weeks per chapter. *(ETA: one "chapter" = 2a, 2b, 3a, 3b, etc., not one chapter = 2a+2b) Jackie

:iagree: That's exactly how it's worked out for us, too. I'm blown away by the stuff my kids are learning, they're enthusiastic & motivated, and everyone just seems so much more upbeat and less stressed out. Jackie

I just wanted to clarify that Origin of Civilization by Scott MacEachern and Origins of Great Ancient Civilizations, by Kenneth Harl, are 2 different courses, and it's the former I would strongly recommend against. I just didn't want anyone to think I was talking about the course Chai mentioned — we like Kenneth Harl! Jackie

Books (not textbooky): Your Inner Fish, Neil Shubin Endless Forms Most Beautiful: The New Science of Evo Devo, Dean Carroll The Beak of the Finch, Jonathan Weiner Evolution: What the Fossils Say and Why It Matters, Donald Prothero The Book of Life: An Illustrated History of the Evolution of Life on Earth, Stephen Jay Gould On the Origin of Species: The Illustrated Edition (gorgeous book!) Documentaries (most of these should be on Netflix): Evolution (PBS, 8 hr series) Charles Darwin and the Tree of Life (BBC) What Darwin Never Knew (PBS, 2 hrs) The Shape of Life (little known but wonderful series) Teaching Company: Major Transitions in Evolution Theory of Evolution: A History of Controversy Darwinian Revolution Jackie

:iagree: The absolute best decision I ever made in our homeschool was not to assign reading to DS, but just let him discover and explore on his own. I also did what TechWife recommends with Amazon — when DS found a book or series he liked, I'd search Amazon for similar books, or other books by the same author, and make a list of things he could look for at the library. He's gone from being an extremely reluctant reader to a voracious reader who's rarely without a book, and usually has a stack lined up waiting in the wings. He's recently read the Prydain Chronicles and the Earthsea Trilogy, and he's currently into Tolkein — which is something of a miracle for a seriously dyslexic 7th grade boy who could hardly be bothered to skim a Magic Treehouse book three years ago. So I will happily celebrate with you the Dude's initiation into the wonderful world of reading for pleasure; may he "lose" many wonderful hours in those magical worlds! :party: Jackie

Wow, how ironic that she posted that in response to a warning about not copying material from other websites and putting your own name on it, which is exactly what she does. The lady doth protest too much, methinks. Oh, I was agreeing you, I was just elaborating on the difference between copyright violation and plagiarism. :001_smile: Jackie

It depends on how much you think your DH will really get involved — Backyard Ballistics will require full involvement from Dad, from buying the materials to measuring/sawing/building things. Mini Weapons includes projects that kids can do themselves, and it's easy to include a big box of supplies with the book as a present. I did this for DS's birthday last year. I bought a big craft box with lots of compartments and filled it with everything he needed: paperclips, bulldog clips, popsicle sticks, tape, rubber bands, plastic straws, dowels, glue, etc. It was a big hit, not only with DS, but with DD and all of their friends. The Ballistics book, OTOH.... not many projects happening out of that one, because the projects take a lot of planning & building and when DH does have the time to work with the kids, they'd rather work on robotics or electronics anyway. Jackie

Yes, "she can do this" in the sense that it's not a criminal offense — unfortunately plagiarism is not in itself against the law. It's still highly unethical; a student caught plagiarizing in college could be failed or even expelled even though they haven't technically committed a crime. I'm sure if any of us caught our kids plagiarizing text, whether from recent books or public domain sources like wikipedia or googlebooks, we would read them the riot act and impose severe consequences! So the fact that this woman is plagiarizing another author's work and selling it to unsuspecting teachers — homeschooling parents — seems extra-slimy to me. It's not just history either — the science units I looked at also contained whole pages of text she had copied word-for-word from various websites, including other people's photos, illustrations and artwork, and she had put her own name and copyright on every single page. Basically, homeschooling parents are paying for work that would earn their own kids an F! Jackie

Even if you do think that PS might be the best place for her eventually, I would not do it this way, not now, when it will seem to her like you're just "trying to get rid of her." Seven is still soooo little, and I'd be really afraid that she would think you're sending her away — and just her, not the other kids — because you don't like her or want to be around her. Obviously that's NOT how you feel, but if I were seven and my mom blew up and sent me away that's how I'd feel. :sad: If you don't want her to go, and you don't want to fight anymore, then I'd look for a middle way. I'd tell her how much you love her and want to enjoy your time with her, and how much it hurts your heart to always be fighting about schoolwork — I'm sure it hurts her heart, too. Ask her how you two can work together to make school happen. Can you drop writing for a little while and do "living math" books and math games for a bit, while you work on your relationship? Can she help you with measuring and fractions while you bake cookies together, or help you write a letter to Grandma? Gosh, 7 is still sooo young — you have the next 11 years to get her to a reasonable level in math and teach her to write an essay, it's just not worth ruining your relationship now over writing a few paragraphs or doing a few math worksheets. It's easy to "catch up" with those things later (and you may be amazed at how much more mature and capable she is in another year or so), but if the foundation of your relationship is rocky now, at seven, it's only going to get harder as she gets older. I'd go hug that baby and tell her you love her and don't want to send her away. :grouphug: Jackie

Which edition of Singapore do you have? I compared the TOCs (and many of the lessons as well) of the US edition to MM a couple of years ago and they were pretty comparable. Singapore introduced a few concepts earlier than MM, but MM included a few things Singapore didn't (I think it was negative numbers and graphing functions?) The Standards edition was written specifically to match the new CA state standards, which introduce a lot of concepts earlier than MM (and most other math curricula I've seen). They're both excellent curricula, and they end up in about the same place. I'm not sure that the earlier introduction of concepts in the Standards edition means anything other than... some educational standards committee thought it was a good idea. Doesn't mean that a curriculum that introduces concepts a bit later than the Standards edition (including the US edition) is "behind" — it just depends on what you're looking for. Jackie

Yeah, interesting that she claims the worksheets are her original work — in fact, the Things to Remember, Map Work, and Memory Selection activities are taken word for word from the original text, and the Summary of Facts, Timeline, and Vocabulary Builder "worksheets" are just blank pages with lines on them, for the student to fill in (the pages are the same for every chapter). She did throw in some "vocabulary match" worksheets. I wonder how many people realize they're paying $25 for a handful of vocabulary match worksheets? It's also interesting to me that she now cites the Hodgdon book as a "source" in the front matter of her curriculum, because it wasn't in the unit that I downloaded last spring. When I emailed her that I found the language dated, racist, & offensive, she just said that it "came from an old book" — she never mentioned a specific book or that the entire thing was another author's work. I wonder if she added the blurb about the Hodgdon book after I discovered the source and confronted her? She still lists herself as author (by J. Ann Huss) on the cover, and she put her own copyright on every single page — not just the "worksheets." She also offers the exact same material from the Hodgdon book on her other website (available "free" — for a $25 "donation"), with no mention whatsoever of the source. When I was looking for more information about this other website, I found this lovely recommendation. :ack2: Jackie

That's a different book — if you click the link in the OP, you'll see that the TOC on Googlebooks matches the TOC of Simple Schooling. Jackie

I've previously posted about my experiences with Simple Schooling; yes a lot of the material in her "unit studies" is taken from Google books and various websites without attribution — and the bits she writes herself contain bad grammar, misspelled words, and factual errors. You won't get your money back, though — when I emailed her about the errors and confronted her about the plagiarism, not only did she refuse to refund my money, she immediately cancelled my one-year subscription to the online resources (for which I had paid $97). And she was extremely rude and snotty to boot. I would definitely complain to Currclick, and leave a negative review of the materials. Unfortunately I subscribed directly through the Simple Schooling website, so was not able to leave negative feedback on Currclick. Jackie

:lol: This is exactly why I love kids like this! Honestly, I feel blessed not burdened to have such a cool, creative, entertaining kid. DS has an 11 yo PG Aspie friend who is so stinkin' smart and funny and off the wall I just love having him around, even if things get a little crazy sometimes. The other day DS was telling his friend what different groups of animals are called (a crash of rhinos, a murder of crows, a majesty of unicorns, etc.) and his friend said "Do you know what you call a dozen of me? An apocalypse of Aarons." :lol::lol::lol: Does he also like bear hugs, being "squished," and all that sensory stuff? DS really likes having a heavy, weighted blanket at night, and I'm thinking of getting him a chain mail shirt (in lieu of a weighted vest) for Christmas. Clearly you need to ignore the IQ figure you got from the "professionals." ;) Jackie

Have you read The Dyslexic Advantage, or other things about visual-spatial learners? Honestly, understanding why your DD thinks and learns and processes information the way she does — and how those things can also be advantages — may greatly reduce your frustration and the "screaming inside." And instead of "two steps forward, one step back" you may move towards something more like "three steps forward and a small pause." To me, DS's VSL strengths far outweigh any "disabilities" — he's extremely creative, a deep thinker, an amazing artist, and a really sweet, affectionate kid. So what if his shoes are untied, his underwear is on backwards, and he occasionally forgets how to spell his last name? I love listening to the connections he makes and the insights he has, I love seeing his excitement over learning new things or accomplishing something that was really hard for him but finally "clicked." IMO, watching him poke around in a tub of river water & mud and suddenly yell "Planarians!!! There are tons of planarians in here! This is the best day of my entire life!!!" beats neatly filled-out worksheets any day. He's an incredibly interesting person and I genuinely enjoy his company — I wouldn't trade his unique 2E/VSL brain for an NT brain even if I could. Jackie

Which cultures are you interested in? Bob Brier's courses on Eygpt are terrific and IMO are quite accessible to young kids; I'd go with Great Pharoahs of Ancient Egypt (12 lectures), because the 48 lecture course is a bit long and detailed unless you're really really into Egyptian history (DS and I watched both courses, and we were pretty ready to move on by the 60th one!). John Hale is our favorite TC professor of all time, and he has a course on the archaeology of Greece & Rome, but it really is about the archaeology rather than the history. Really interesting, though! We also really liked his course on the Greek & Persian Wars, but that's probably more detailed than you want. If this is for you (not the kids), I'd maybe go with Greece & Rome: An Integrated History of the Mediterranean, since that covers both cultures. Definitely avoid Origin of Civilizations — it's boring, scattered, and I found several factual errors. Generally I find the reviews to be a pretty accurate indicator of the quality of the courses. I always make sure to read the negative reviews, because sometimes people rate a course poorly simply because the professor didn't teach the topics the reviewer would have liked to see, or someone didn't like the professor's voice, or whatever. (E.g. we love Garrett Fagan, his courses are really insightful and just packed with information and analysis, but he has a mild stutter and some people rated him poorly for that, which I think is unfair.) In general, though, I'd look through the course descriptions and see what looks interesting to you and then go by the ratings. ETA: If you're wanting to use a BOGO free coupon, you'll want 2 courses that are similar in price, so I'd probably suggest getting Robert Garland's Greece & Rome: An Integrated History and John Hale's Archaeology of Greece & Rome with the coupon (both are 36 lectures), and then keep your eyes peeled for a sale on Brier's 12-lecture Great Pharoahs course (which you can usually get for under $40). Jackie

That may be true in your house, but it's not true in mine. I think you're misunderstanding what some of us are talking about. It has nothing to do with trying to make kids "think all learning is fun and not work," it's about cultivating a general attitude that learning is intrinsically enjoyable and rewarding, rather than being a "chore" that one must endure in order to get to the "fun stuff" — like TV and video games. In our family the "fun stuff" consists of things like zoo and museum trips, watching documentaries together, going geocaching or hiking (with binoculars, field guides, and mini sketchbooks), going to "star parties" with the local astronomy club, read-alouds with DH (who is British) doing lots of funny voices, playing chess or strategy board games together, collecting/identifying/studying interesting critters from the local river, etc. There's no discrete line here between "school stuff" and "fun stuff" — we really do watch science documentaries and Teaching Company lectures for fun. We read magazines like Discover and Scientific American and Science Illustrated and my dad saves and sends us all the science stories from the NY Times, which we read aloud at lunchtime. (We learned some amazing things about possums at lunch yesterday!) We read for pleasure and we discuss what we're reading; the kids will often read particularly funny or interesting passages aloud. We play MadLibs or 20 Questions when we're sitting in restaurants, we listen to audiobooks in the car, we listen to lots of different kinds of music at home. Making learning interesting and engaging and meaningful doesn't mean it has to be "fun & games" — nor does it preclude hard work. (Attic Greek is certainly not fun & games for DS, it's really hard, but it's interesting and meaningful to him, so he's willing to put in the effort.) Yes, some things in life are tedious and boring and just have to get done, but IMHO learning doesn't need to be one of them. Jackie

I have a very funny photo of my then-6-year-old DS with his underpants on inside out and sideways (he'd mistaken the waist for a leg hole, and his little butt was hanging out the back), and a look of puzzled incomprehension on his face, as if someone had completely redesigned underpants overnight and no one told him. :lol: Jackie

Because Hammurabi's code has a meaningful context which allows the information to be easily filed & retrieved, whereas math facts (and spelling words) do not, and so they end up, in DS's words, "on little scraps of paper scattered all over the floor in [his] brain." Are you familiar with the Eides' work? The Mislabeled Child was a huge revelation to me when I was trying to figure DS out, and their newest book, The Dyslexic Advantage: Unlocking the Hidden Potential of the Dyslexic Brain, is terrific. Lots of great stuff on their blog as well. Once you understand how these kids' brains work, the kind of discrepancies you describe aren't surprising at all. This is my DS exactly! He didn't learn to tie his shoes until his feet got so big I couldn't find velcro shoes any more — and he still prefers to wear Crocs, even in the rain, rather than bother with tying shoes. And what's with the backwards shirts??? How can put your shirt on backwards more than 50% of the time — that's not just random error! :lol: Jackie

I think it's really important to listen to our kids, but I also think that many kids, especially as young as 8 or 9, are really not able to articulate how they think and what they need. My DS would not have been able to say "Well, I'm a visual-spatial learner, and like most VSLs I struggle with working memory and processing speed for verbal information, so repetition & drill don't work with me. I would prefer a curriculum that is hands-on, project-based, and interest-led, because that's how I learn best." :tongue_smilie: I think that kids who've only been exposed to "schooly" type learning often don't even realize that there are other options. They just think "I hate school" and "I love to draw and play and make up stories" and it doesn't really occur to them that learning can happen in ways that are just as enjoyable as drawing and playing and making up stories. I think it could even seem overwhelming to some kids to be told "decide what to learn and how to learn it and I'll help you" — some kids might jump at that opportunity but others would panic. I learned what my son needed by (1) observing how he learned (e.g. he could remember incredibly minute details from a documentary he watched several years ago, but couldn't remember what he read in an assigned book half an hour ago; he would spontaneously carry out science experiments and research things on his own, but would learn nothing from filling in a science worksheet), (2) having him tested (confirmed the giftedness, explained the slow processing speed and working memory issues), (3) doing lots of research on giftedness, dyslexia, VSL, etc., (4) presenting him with options, and (5) being flexible and willing to change course when needed. If I'd asked DS, when I first pulled him out of school, "what do you want to learn?" he probably would have said "Nothing, I hate school." Instead I just started small and let one thing lead to another. Reading Percy Jackson (instead of assigned books) made him realize for the first time that he could "disappear" into a book and go to another place. Totally changed his attitude towards reading, and he's now a voracious reader. Percy Jackson led to an interest in Greek mythology, which led to an interest in Greek history, which led to an obsession with ancient Greece, including begging to study the language. This dyslexic, ADD, VSL, school-hater now works his butt off, 15+ hours/week, on Athenaze Greek because he's determined to learn it (and he has straight As in the class). But it's not something that would have ever occurred to him (or me!) a few years ago. Jackie

Thanks for the Coffee Shop link, I haven't seen that one before! Jackie