Winners for us: MCT: Caesar's English I and II, Mud Trilogy (only understandable after Sentence Island and PT), Grammar Voyage and Practice books. Spelling: IEW's Phonetic Zoo Math U See Writing: IEW B Logic: Intro to Logic James Nance, with DVDs and workbook Omnibus Philosphy for Kids: We've had loads of fun with this. SOTW: we've finished all 4 books, but it's worth a mention as it's so enjoyable Losers: WWS did not work for us, and I think it is only because my son was too young for it. I wish I'd started it when he was older. Shurley Grammar (so glad we found MCT!)

I hour 5 days per week on MUS, plus about 1/2hr 4 x week with Mathsonline.

In my opinion, and from my experience in having done WWS with a 6th grader, and struggled all the way, 5th grade, age 10, is way too young for WWS. A great many others share this experience. I would wait until 7th grade, at least, to do WWS. There is an enormous jump between WWE4 and WWS. Check out the thread in this section of the forum about shoring up their skills while you still can: http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/255841-crosspost-why-you-should-work-on-twtm-skills-narration-dictation-outlining-etc/

Personally, Julie, I would borrow the money to buy MCT grammar. It is the most "undry" - if there is such a word - grammar curriculum around. Sentence Island is so original and fun. In fact, "original" describes the entire MCT curriculum. ... you will actually look forward to it! I also love this thread! It just nails what I really think is important for primary and middle school years: skills, skills, skills. That is why - *controversial statement alert* - I can't understand why some homeschoolers think that "child follows the lead" approach will be any good. How many kids are going to sit there honing their skills, doing math drills and begging for dictation exercises; stuff that requires effort? If anything, they will probably go for content, but not skills. So they will end up knowing hundreds of facts about subject matter from Wikipedia, without much depth, but can't do the 3 Rs to their potential. And as Andrew Pudewa says, they will not be able to use the 'content' in any meaningful way, because they have only a basic ability to put it into any useful form.

Will TGS 3 be based on Paul's letters?

I would choose Latin, because you can then learn most Romance languages more easily from there. I teach French to a group of homeschoolers and I have noticed a difference in one girl who is also learning Latin; she can grasp French more easily by deduction.

I was a 'natural writer' at the age of 12, and I still have all the diaries and very long stories I wrote at that age. I was the opposite of how Andrew Pudewa describes most kids; that they cry at the thought of a blank page and having to pull something out of nothing. I used to LOVE it! I would BEG for blank pages! And I had so many story ideas "out of nothing" that it was hard to choose. So I would have resented anyone telling me to add 'dressups' or avoid certain words! That is why I projected that onto my son who is NOT quite a natural writer. I just assumed he would feel the same way as me ... and that was my mistake (until I thankfully realised this!).

Thank you for your replies. FloridaLisa thank you for your practical suggestions; I feel like I'm almost on the right track as I have a similar philosophy as yours to learning. I want to make the most of the short time I have to teach skills, especially writing skills. Currently our day mostly consists of maths and LAs. It is also reassuring to know your dc were not independent until 11th grade. I've been concerned about how much ds12 needs me now. He can't even do an outline without me there. Some of this is his lazy way of trying to use my brain instead of his own but I'm trying to find ways to get him to use his, ie by use of the Socratic method.

We only do IEW twice a week and on the other days I'm teaching him the Persuasive essay, as he needs to do this for the SAT. Plus he writes his own stories. So IEW is for the exercise of broadening and exercising his writing expression. My kid is very headstrong and doesn't like being told what to do, so he won't have any trouble using 'said' in the future! Even now, I don't over-emphasise eliminating the banned words, especially if they work well.

I have a BA in English studies, and these were the reasons I avoided IEW for a long time. We used WWE and WWS. But my ds12 struggled with WWS last year, so we finally swapped to IEW just to check it out .... and we've had amazing success. I was going to do with program with him while explaining there is nothing wrong with using "said" as long as your character actually says something interesting. But now I finally realise why IEW use the technique of banned words. It's because the child has a much smaller vocabulary and narrower expressive skills. It is just a temporary exercise in getting the child to branch out of their comfort zone to new words and ways of expression. After mastering the art, you would definitely return to "said" etc .... IMHO :)

We didn't get the Search Trilogy, except Alice, but Caesar's English has worked well with my ds12. He loves all MCT materials. Sentence Island is a must, so is paragrapth Town. You can only understand the Mud Trilogy if you've read those 2 books first. They are quite advanced; even "I" learnt a LOT from Sentence Island! We also love Grammar Voyage, especially the story about Long John Silver and the Vague Abstraction :)

What would you do differently, what would you not do, and what are you really glad you did do? ... that would make things easier in terms of learning and other outcomes ... I have a 12 year old son, and I was just replying to someone on another forum who asked what they would do with a 5 year old to help things along when they got older, and I said I would make sure they had a good pencil grip early and that I was glad I read so many good fairytales. I then wondered what you intelligent and experienced parents of late teen and young adults would do the same or different? Looking forward to your answers!! :)

I went to a Youth Mental Health conference last year, and the latest neuroscience findings support the idea that a young person should not drop out of college until they are at least 22/23, and this has nothing to do with getting a job, but brain development (that is involved in problem solving etc). They used to think that the brain's most important growth was birth to five years, but now they say it's between 11 and 22. This is when the important 'pruning' of neurones takes place. Here is a quote: “As in the earliest years of life, a second wave of reorganisation of the brain is taking place during the teenage years. Recent research on adolescent brain development suggests that secondary and tertiary education are probably vital. The brain is still developing during the period: it is thus presumably adaptable, and needs to be moulded and shaped.†Dr S Blakemore Institute of Cognitive Neuroscience * So, in other words, college is a kind of "therapy" for the brain :)

We find MCT grammar and all of his books from Royal Fireworks Press the most fun.

Thank you Jen; I had seen that one. I guess it's the only thing out there. Someone badly needs to make a new updated version!

I've tried to find a good "The Apology" DVD, but there only seems to be the Rossolini Italian version available, and nothing in English. I've looked all over youtube, ebay and amazon, but nothing. Might I have missed one out there in some obscure corner of cyberspace? thanks

I've tried to find a good The Apology DVD, but there only seems to be the Rossolini Italian version available, and it's only in Italian. I've look all over youtube, amazon and even ebay, but there's nothing. Might I have missed one in some obscure corner of cyberspace somewhere out there? thanks

LOL, my ds became interested in Greek because of Percy Jackson as well! Great novels; they got my ds reading independently :)

He sounds very much like my ds - great at reading and comprehension, but unable to express it in written words (even typing for a while). I taught mine to touch type when he was 8 and concentrated on that until he could type as I dicatated, without looking at the keys. I made sure he stuck to 10 finger typing at all times. He also has dysgraphia, and his last handwriting test showed he was 3 years behind (yet he can type 25wpm). I definitely second IEW. Mine did WWE4 when he was grade 5, and WWS grade 6. WWS was a struggle, and we gave up at lesson 28. But we then started IEW-B (for grades 6-8) and he has been flying along! He now types his own stories that go on for pages and pages. The videos and hand-holding of IEW has helped SO much. You didn't say how old he was. In any case, I would do this: Step 1. Teach him to touch type, even if it takes 6 months. Don't worry about the art of writing; only concentrate on him being able to type without looking at the keys, then taking dictation. This takes a ton of patience. Step 2. Get IEW-A or B, depending on how old he is, but it sounds like he would be better starting with A. Personally, I wouldn't get the voice recognition gadget; it will only delay his "words on paper" motor skills that he will have to develop.

Thank you for your suggestions; I'm checking them out right now :)

My ds12 will do the Australian equivalent of the SAT in May. One thing he has to do is write a persuasive essay. We're doing IEW-B, which so far has no PE in it. Not enough time to get LToW and do it in 2 months, so I would like to access some good online programs or sites for basic PEs, if anyone would like to share them here. Thank you for your time :)

Thank you for the very useful thread Ruth. Would you say that IEWB is parts to whole or whole to parts? I am wondering if there is some key here, because my ds12 had a huge struggle with WWS1 yet he is finding IEWB a breeze. So I am wondering if we should do LToW next, if the p to w works better.

We're going to use it later on in the year. We're already doing Omni I "lite" - using PG versions of the books, so the course will consolidate what he has learnt so far. I also have a few issues with a couple of the theological viewpoints, but hopefully we can skip parts.

The year before I started homeschooling I trained myself in logic. I completed no less than 13 books and workbooks on logic ... it became an addiction! LOL! My own training has been of immense benefit to my ds, now 12, to have a good background in logic while I teach him, as I know where I got stuck and can help him. I found the Nance Intro to Logic the best to learn Formal Logic from. I didn't like his Intermediate Logic, but I really like the 2nd book of Cothran's (while not so much the first). The Nance workbook is excellent, as the reader has to practice each new skill they learn, and each lesson is short and sweet. Agreeing with others, the Fallacy Detecitve is a great intro. I know Martin Cothan suggests formal logic first. But my ds really enjoyed the FD and - most importantly - it made him much happier to learn "more logic" via the more abstract formal logic books.

We started The Fallacy Detective when ds was 11, and I monitored how well he understood it, plus abstract concepts. He had no trouble with either, so we started the Nance book Intro to Logic when he just turned 12. Also Omnibus, which is very logic stage.