"Behind" is by definition a relative concept, isn't it? I think the OP's question was, Is TT behind with respect to the other programs out there? And so I think it's legitimate for those of us who have found it to be "behind" compared to other programs with which we have experience to respond with our observations, particularly with specific examples comparing it with other programs we have used. Likewise, if you have not found it to be "behind" compared to other programs, you should say so. That's what the OP was asking. Here's what I don't get: I haven't been around the Hive that long, but I notice that whenever TT comes up, there seem to be unusually *strong* reactions on both sides. People either really love this program, or really hate it. And people who love it seem to get very defensive when others criticize it. I've not seen this strong, and polarized, of a reaction to other curricula - ok, maybe Saxon ;). Am I hallucinating about this? I use TT, and I think it has strengths and weaknesses. I use MM too, and I adore it, but if anyone criticizes it, or says it doesn't work for them, I don't feel roused to passionately defend it. I'm honestly curious - I'm not trying to criticize anyone's reactions or step on anyone's toes. I'm just trying to understand the dynamic.

:lol::lol::lol:This is totally me!!!

I would have to agree with this. My dd, after one quarter of ps 4th grade, tested into TT6th based on the placement, although there were several topics covered later in TT5 that she hasn't had at all. For Singapore and MM, she didn't pass the Grade 3 exit exams. I'm now using MM4 as our main program, and TT5 as review for days when I can't be present to help her (I work one day a week and she has to work on her own). It's fine for this purpose; it provides review and practice. It doesn't teach her anything, though - no conceptual understanding, no why it works this way. Just follow the model and do it. In hindsight, I'm sure I could get the same thing (independent practice) from Khan academy or some other free online program. On the up side, DD does enjoy doing it, and since I paid for it, by golly I'm going to let her use it . . . :glare:

You can definitely start with Vol. II with an older kid, especially if they have had some basic exposure to science through books or other activities. I decided to get the $5 pdf of Vol. I, because there were a few activities I wanted to do with DD9 in preparation for the Vol. II threads. It was worth it for 5 bucks, but we could have gotten by without it, too.

I was so daunted by the size of this thread that I almost didn't read it . . . but I am so glad I did! Y'all have given me the courage to go ahead and *drop* already the two things that aren't working for us: Writing Strands and Spelling Workout. Thank You!! (and DD thanks you too :D)

For the lesson she is working on, dd just uses the cd - meaning she watches the explanation, the practice problems, then dives into the problems w/o looking at the book. The problems include items from previous chapters, however (it's very spiral), and for those she sometimes looks in the textbook if she has forgotten something (this seems to happen a lot with Roman numerals). I look in the table of contents, just to keep track of what's coming up. Neither of us has looked at the answer keys.

We also adore BFSU at our house; I agree there are a ton of great, recent threads talking about how people use it.

I agree with the Loxton book the pp mentioned, also The Magic of Reality by Dawkins, and Bones Brains & DNA by Tattersall. http://www.amazon.com/Bones-Brains-DNA-Genome-Evolution/dp/159373056X For a really great novel that inspires an interest in biology/evolution, The Evolution of Calpurnia Tate is one of my dd's favorite books so far.

I'm doing LOF Apples with my 5 yo K student, as a read-aloud, and she does the "your turn to play" on paper or the white board. She likes it, but she doesn't *love* it the way my DD9 does. I think she doesn't get a lot of the humor. The math is fine, but the quirky, weird stuff that DD9 loves is kind of over her head. I concur with the pp's comments who said that although the math in the elementary series is below the level of DD9, it was well worth starting there, because she loves it so much and it has really helped change her attitude about math. We're almost done with Cats, and we'll definitely do Dogs, but I haven't decided whether to keep on with Elementary, or whether to leapfrog into Fractions. Basically, I think I will keep going with LOF elementary until we get to Fractions in MM, and at that point we'll start LOF Fractions. I think.

http://www.classicalhouseoflearning.com/logic-stage-literature.html I like the books in the above link for a 5th grader studying the Ancients. For Biology, The View from the Oak by Judith Kohl is a wonderful book about ethology, observation, and studying nature, and my 4th grader read it independently. Highly recommend it.

I've spent a ridiculous amount of money on math stuff in getting started with homeschooling, but it's worth it. MM, TT, also books for me on teaching math (like Math Power and Kitchen Table Math). And the Life of Fred series, which I'm slowly stocking up on, and justifying because I'll use it for both girls . . . I also tend to splurge on history or science books that we'll refer to over and over in our chronological or topical studies - The Story of Science, and things like this. For other living books, I *try* to make myself rely mostly on library copies, but often can't resist buying . . . Next big spending plan is MCT, but I'm trying to hold off for a bit. I may have to freeze my credit card!

Hi Heidi, Thanks for describing how you are using the program. Sounds just like what I'm hoping to do. For the literature, are you using the MCT versions of the 3 books, and the teacher's guide? I've been hesitant to spend the money on this package, because we already own really nice copies of all 3 of these books, but you can't buy the TM alone. I'm wondering if it adds so much that it might be worth it after all?

I'm glad you resurrected this thread - I'm curious too. I was going to do MCT next year in 5th, after finishing FLL4/WWE3, but I'm thinking of adding it in now and moving ahead with them all, at a slower pace . . . :bigear:

I started WS3 last year when DD was in 3rd grade, afterschooling, and we're continuing to use it periodically now that she is homeschooling full time. We do WWE as our main writing program. She likes WS3 pretty well. I like it as a supplement to WWE, because it does have some creative writing and some other kinds of writing, which breaks up the narration/dictation routine of WWE. It's also something she can do independently, which is helpful at times. I think it's a great supplement but probably wouldn't use it exclusively - it's not enough writing IMO for a whole year. But with another program, or with writing summaries in subject areas (history, science) I think it's a great intro to formal writing instruction for a 3rd grader.

I've recently gotten Book 2 of Kitchen Table Math. I think you could for sure use it to *teach* everything - it is a really solid set of instructions for the teacher, to teach concepts in a logical, ordered way, using fun demos, games, etc. But it doesn't have any exercises, problems, practice, etc., so I don't think I'd rely on it alone. You could use it along with a really simple workbook, or something like Miquon, though, really successfully I think . . . It's such a great book for the math teacher, though, I think it is worth getting no matter what you use for your student. Caveat, I have only seen Book 2.

Well, I heard SWB respond to this question by saying something along the lines of "If they were going to write in Latin, Latin grammar would be sufficient. As they are going to be writing in English, English grammar is necessary." I always think of grammar (and spelling) as aids to good writing, not as subjects to learn on their own/for their own sake. So, I tend to agree that English grammar is necessary for excellence in writing.

IMO, you should do whatever it takes to a) fill in the holes, and b) keep them feeling positive and that they are moving forward. So yeah, if they are having a good experience with TT, let them keep going with it. I consider MM our main math program, but we use TT as a supplement, because DD likes it, it gives her variety, and it's something she can do on her own when I'm not available to help her. I really don't like it, because I find the organization chaotic and illogical, and it's too spiral, but it provides her with variety and a review, and she wants to do it. If she ever stopped wanting to use it, I wouldn't push it. I'm not familiar with Math u see so can't comment on whether it or MM would be better for filling in the holes . . .

TWTM is what introduced us to homeschooling and to the classical education philosophy. I will be forever in its debt for that! I would say that its philosophy, in general, is our guiding philsophy - with the exception that we only use secular materials, and many of their reccomendations are religious materials. Before I found this board, I considered TWTM our "bible" and we do use a lot of the materials that SWB has created (FLL, WWE, WWS, SOTW) or that they recommend. But I'm starting to branch out, more, now that I'm able to ask questions, read about different curricula, and see what works for DD. I always check things out at the library, if possible, before buying, and I ask a *lot* of questions here before investing in something new. You can read old threads about specific curricula using the "search" function. I would say that I spend an obscene amount of time researching and planning curricula, and the Hive is an invaluable aid . . .

What a funny phenomena - I was writing a message defending SOTW, and as I was writing it, the things that annoyed me (in vol. 2) kept coming to mind, and I realize that yeah, it does have some issues! :lol: I really didn't have an issue with Vol. 1. I thought that the bible-type stories were presented just like all the other stories, and I have no problem with that. I'm an atheist, and a scientist, but we teach our kids about the myths and stories of all cultures, and I make no distinction among the judeo-christian stories and the greek myths. I would not avoid a history book that included judeo-christian stories any more than I would avoid one that included greek myths. I expect my kids to take neither literally. They are *stories* and what I like about SOTW is that history is presented as a set of engaging stories. I think this is the perfect intro to history for a young child. I have had a couple of issues with Vol. 2, which may or may not reflect religious bias. It bugs me that there is a full, graphic chapter on the Black Death, but no mention of the Inquisition - supposedly that is too upsetting and confusing for kids. My DD was plenty upset about the black death, thank you very much, and I don't think it's valid to leave out one but not the other on the ground of not upsetting kids. I also was annoyed by the chapter on Henry VIII and the Reformation. She makes Henry into this reformer, who agreed with and supported Luther, which is not at all true - Henry's Church of England was totally Catholic, with himself as the head rather than the Pope. He persecuted Lutherans and Protestants. I thought the inaccuracies there were kind of like "whig history" in which everything seems to be inevitably leading to our own enlightened state . . . anyway, this is the first time i've run into these particular criticisms of SOTW, and it is interesting. I don't know if there is anything else out there that is as well-written, and as engaging, and as non-texty, but without any bias whatsoever.

My dd9 is using Spelling Workout E and she hates it. It is the only thing we are doing that she doesn't like. I'm thinking about dropping it, and focusing on a) vocab study, including latin roots, and b) spelling practice based on words she misspells in her writing. FWIW.

Oh, this is for a 4th grader.

I've spent the last ~3 months getting my daughter caught up in math using Math Mammoth. I started by giving her the placement test I thought would be appropriate (that ended up being the end-of-level 3 test). Based on the results of the placement test, I then printed out the level 2 and level 3 worksheets in the areas she was struggling with. These all came with the free sample materials I got from the Math Mammoth website, I didn't pay I dime for them. After a couple of weeks working on specific topics, we started with MM 4A. With each lesson, if it was too much, I went back and found the 3rd or even 2nd grade worksheets that covered that same topic, more simply. We worked through those, then went back to the 4A lesson. It took us a *long* time to get through the first chapter, because in addition to filling in holes and learning concepts that had never been learned, she was having to relearn how to learn math - it's supposed to be challenging, it's ok to struggle, it's ok to get something wrong as long as you keep working at it. It took a few weeks before every math lesson didn't involve tears. But now, only 3 months later, she's like a new girl! We still work together on MM, and she still struggles at times, but she struggles willingly with a new determination to "get it". She does TT5 on her own with no trouble when I'm not around to help with MM. We do LOF for fun, giggles, and playfulness, and that has helped a lot with the attitude change. So yes, I think you can catch up using MM in a relatively short time. Good luck :grouphug:

I've got the arithmetic set. Honestly, I thought I'd use/like it more than I do. I like the *idea* of linking math to real-world problems, but a lot of them aren't actually real-world for a 4th grader. How often does a 4th grader need to analyze the population of australia? Just because a problem has words, doesn't mean it's "real-world" (i.e. relevant) to a kid . . . Having said that, it is good practice in word problems for kids who need that, which mine does. Like Maria says, most word problems are presented embedded within a lesson, where it's easy to just apply the same operation you've been practicing all lesson, and not think too much. I like presenting some "random" word problems, so that she has to really think about the operations, not just apply a formula. MIRL is ok for that, but so are the Singapore word problem books, and probably lots of others.

I can't say MM 4A is self-directed for us, either. Only very rarely is there a lesson she can do completely independently. I think this will change with time, but for now I only have her do MM if I'm available to help.