Hi Pen, thanks for the recommendation for Through the Eyes of a Stranger. I succumbed to temptation. I'm really enjoying it. I'm a permaculture teacher, so its right up my alley. I think it'll do the rounds of my permaculture group, then I'll use it for a read aloud with DS11 Cheers D

My son didn't like Writing Strands because it made him think: he's quite bright and very lazy. Writing Strands pushed him to pick up his pen, turn on his brain and do some work. It has no short cuts - you have to write, but its not labour intensive: the lessons are short and direct. This was a good thing for us because the whinging (him) and ranting (me) were lengthy!. We're taking a break this year and using Killgallon's sentence composing. Its working well as a complement to Writing Strands - he likes the examples from novels and we do a lot orally so he can't whinge about the physical act of writing. We'll do level 4 of WS next year (year 7). I think its a good writing program (I'm a scientific writer by trade). We do most of our writing in history and science: we take notes and write summaries, so I don't see any need for WWE (we'd gone beyond it before I discovered it). I actually think the best complementary program for WS for ME was the Writer's Jungle. I needed to change my attitude to my son's writing. TWJ lightened me up. I'm off to find that video.... D

We waited till level three. My son was 10. Did he like it? No! Did I have to push him to do it? Yep. Was it painful? Oh yes, indeedy! Does he still complain about it? Yep. Did it improve his writing? Yep. Will I make him do level 4? You bet (he's whinging in anticipation) D

The Magic of Reality is the read-aloud bug-bear here I love it (I'm a scientist). My son thinks its boring (he's a language arts type). How, I ask you, can the science of the world, written by a clever and passionate author, be boring? He'd rather read the Aenid! Its got the point where I'm embarrassed to fill in the "read-aloud" box on my own lesson plans. I am pleased to hear that I'm not alone, though. D

We've been Steiner folks since 2003. We are also atheists. My son spent 4 years in a Steiner school (from playgroup till 1st term of grade 2). Steiner schools are grounded in the teachings of Rudolf Steiner, including the faith he developed, anthroposophy. Steiner/Waldorf schools are not secular. Anthroposophy is a form of Christianity, with Pagan (eg seasonal celebrations such as Winter and Summer Solstice) and Eastern influences (eg reincarnation). Because each school is a self-governing organisation, the degree to which anthroposophy influences teaching probably varies widely. It was present in my son's school, but not to the point that it made us question whether he should be there (it was the bullying that did that!). The seasonal festivals are a very important part of the Waldorf calendar. In Australian Steiner schools, they are the main focus: the Saints don't get much of a mention, although I gather in some US schools, the focus is more on Saints like St Michael. Here, the festivals thank Mother Earth and Father Sun, rather than God, although many Waldorf verses mention God. The curriculum is very easy to secularise. We still taught Saints and heroes in grade 2, but we made sure that the Saints had done something more than just suffer for God (not a grand story topic for young'uns anyway), and we had plenty of heroes in the mix. In grade 3 we taught Old testament stories because the Bible is arguably the most influential text on Western society and we felt it was important that our son knew about it (he resisted for several days), but we taught it in much the same way as we taught Aboriginal myths, or any other creation stories, which we also covered that year. In fact, some curricula teach creation stories, including the Bible, rather than with the focus the other way round. The other caveat about Waldorf is that the science can be very esoteric. Steiner's teachings on science are based on Goethe's theories. While the focus on learning science through observation is sound, some of the inferences from this really should be frog-marched back to the 1920's where they belong. My main gripe about this came in the Grade 4 Man and Animal unit from Live Ed (I've since sold it, so please don't ask me for a solid example, but I think it had something to do with cuttlefish :confused:). Christopherus is much better, and very easy to secularise, but not as pretty. HTH D

Hi Halcyon, without knowing you, it sounds like you really don't want a curriculum in a box, which Oak Meadow will give you. Earlier additions were more tweakable, from what I have seen. Live Ed is a visually stunning curriculum: the art work is spectacular. We used it for fourth grade and I loved trying to make our work live up to the pictures in the curriculum (I am fairly art-challenged!). However, it is not a complete curriculum. It covers the main lessons only - the "head" lessons in Waldorf. You are left to do the middle (heart) and block (hands) lessons yourself. Given that you have classical bent, this may not be a problem: you can cover maths revision, writing, foreign language, arts and crafts etc, yourself. You definitely need to supplement the maths. I did have problems with some of the science aspects, though. Live Ed is more steeped in anthroposophy than Christopherus. Christopherus, if you buy the grade package, is a full curriculum: it covers the whole day. It is also much more practical and less esoteric. The science is much more solid (and scientifically valid). It certainly is not as artistically advanced as Live Ed and the author is very open about this. I have used it for grade 2 (before the full grade package was available), full package for grade 3, supplemented grade 4, full grade 5 and now a few history units and the rough guide in grade 6 (there is no grade package beyond grade 5). I am a compulsive tweaker: I add a lot and vary the reading to match my son's abilities, and I add Australian content. It is very easy to increase the difficulty of the content and your expectations. HTH D

I think I just died and went to heaven! That site is superb. Thank you!!!! My inner boffin just wants to sit here all day and read. Sadly, my outer boffin has to go and finish school for the day D

I will add another caveat: no Waldorf curriculum is open-and-go, nor is it pitched at the student (honestly, if it is, its not really Waldorf). You have to prepare material and you have to teach. D

For my money, I'd go for a couple of second grade units from Christopherus, ie Saints and Heroes (very easy to secularise - lots of heroes as well as saints) or animal legends, both language arts units. If your child is an accelerated reader (mine was at this age), you can make the reading content more complex, as well as increasing the written component. These units will give you a feeling for the Waldorf style, without you having shelled out so much money that you feel locked in. Then you can make an informed choice of where to go next. I will add this caveat: I haven't seen Oak Meadow's grade 2, only an old grade 4. I think its an excellent curriculum, but it lacks the full-on arts integration of Waldorf, and is probably less amenable to tweaking. And if you end up continuing with Christopherus into grade 3, you'll have the most wonderful year - the Native American units, which integrate mythology, history, geography, science and art, are just wonderful! D

Sorry - I'm speaking Australian! Fluoro = fluorescent, as in high visibility workwear. Its the new blue collar. Everyone seems to be wearing fluoro yellow these days (like a bad '80's disco) D

For me, Jen has identified the real elephant in the room: you can throw a whole lot of money and effort at the school system without touching one of the fundamental differences: lower SE families generally do not have the same level of conversation in the home or exposure to the same experiences.. I am well aware that this is a thumping great generalisation and makes me sound a bit of an elitist, but it is true in my experience. I grew up in a very working class neighbourhood, with a classically educated, middle class mother and a poorly educated but very bright father who was injured in a work accident when I was 10. We lived below the poverty line from that time. I went to a Catholic systemic school (low school fees, not part of the private school network, mostly working class families). I went on to do a science degree at one of the best (and snobbiest) universities in Australia. I was surrounded by well-healed private school kids. My family was different from some of my friends in that we had lots of books and I read constantly, but when I got to uni I was struck by how very different my social groups were from the wealthier kids, and that key difference wasn't just in the trips to opera, the ballet and Europe: it was in the things that were discussed and the way these discussions progressed. I see it in my own family now. My mother's family are mostly university educated. The conversation covers foreign affairs, arts, music, religion, philosophy, politics, the environment, etc and the children are all exposed to this. They drink it up and are encouraged to participate from a young age. My husband is the first member of his family to go to uni. His family discuss sport, fashion, movies and TV shows. The conversation is generally at a teenage level and is frequently inane. If we brought up philosophy or art we would be considered odd or "up ourselves." The kids from a family where this is the norm, and where TV makes up the bulk of the background noise in the house, are light years behind kids from well-educated families and they WILL struggle to catch up, not just educationally but socially as well. I know I did. Of course, money isn't really the deciding factor in the above equation. You can be poor and well informed, or the reverse. Australia is in the middle of a huge resources boom. University graduates are being paid a fraction of the wages of plumbers, electricians, builders and mining workers. Fluoro is the new three piece suit. So we are seeing very well financed families with very low levels of education. These kids will have their paths smoothed by money, but they'll still struggle to mix it with kids who can hold their own in an educated debate. I am buoyed by this idea, because my husband and I have both left our science jobs behind us and are living below the poverty line ourselves:001_huh: D

Live Ed recommend the Michael Alexander translation for Grade 4. I haven't read it yet, but plan to cover it this term when we do the Celts and the Angles and Saxons (6th Grade for us) D

I'm not going be any help here, other than to say that Australia is a case study in introduced invasive species, many of them brought here for sport (foxes, rabbits), aesthetics (dogs, cats, privet, camphor laurel, cestrum, willow, you name it), work (horses, camels), farming (pigs, deer, loads of plant species) or to control other introduced pests (cane toads). The reasons many of these things have reached plague proportions here are twofold: they have no natural predators and our warm climate allows them to either breed or set seed with greater frequency than their original ecosystems. Perhaps this aspect could be something your daughter could look at. D

I'll second Collapse: its excellent, and not dated. Its not cheerful, but it is very powerful. There was a good TV version of Guns, Germs and Steel, too. D

Perfect! That's a lovely website, too Thanks D

Console yourselves by thinking about how bad this is for MY bank account: I live on the other side of the planet, Amazon doesn't do free shipping to Australia, and the Aussie dollar has dropped below parity with the US $ for the first time in months. AND I really want that Through the eyes of a stranger book......... D

I don't think the prices have gone up, but Christopherus now produces full packages for each year up to 5th, so these cost more because you get lots more. When we first started, in grade 2, there were only separate units. You can still buy units separately for maths, there are books for language arts and science which cover up to grade 8 and you can buy science and history units. So if you don't want it all laid out, you could pay much less. If you buy the whole package, all you'd need was craft supplies and a good library. Compared with the other main Steiner curriculum, Live Education, Christopherus is well priced and covers the full years work for main, middle and block lessons, where Live Ed only does main lessons. Christopherus has much more information about how to teach, plan, etc than Live Ed and no restrictive resale policy. If you check out the Waldorf forums, and Waldorf supplies yahoo list, you can find Christopherus second hand. We're now in 6th grade and using the free rough guide, along with two history guides for the year. We've found Christopherus good value, even with shipping to Australia. I guess most of all, I like Donna's style: very down to earth, very practical and she gets the difference between school and homeschool. Its also not US-centric, which is a big problem for us rest-of-the-world types! D

I've used them for a couple of years and they work well for me and DS11. I find them very flexible: I've used them with a couple of different timetables and the workboxes have provided the linch-pin for the timetable both times. They are also great for the days when my husband has to step into the teaching role because I am busy elsewhere. I didn't pay out any money for the system, apart from the ebook, which I found very helpful (you could easily do without this, but I was happy to pay for the intellectual property). I use an old two-tier tray mobile and 6 cane baskets, all of which I had at home. I only use six "workboxes" (the baskets) each day because we only do six subjects each day. I made the tags and timetables using cardboard, contact, blutac and pictures I found on line. We don't use them anymore, but I didn't spend any money on laminating, velcro or any other bells and whistles. The great advantage of the workboxes is that it makes me get organised before the day begins (I'm a lazy bugger, and if I can wing it, I will). Thus the day runs smoothly and we get heaps more work done. My son is not self-motivated, so having the work laid out, with a visual reminder of what he's up to and what is left works very well. Hope this helps Danielle

Don't dismiss Waldorf as being academically light. If you follow the Christopherus path, you will basically be running a four year history and science cycle by 5th grade, as well as keeping pace with maths (ready for algebra in year 7) and grammar. The reading selections are almost identical to the WTM lists. Writing from outlines is not taught directly until high school, but you can alter this if you like: language arts tends to be integrated with history and science. And we are living proof that you can use a Waldorf curriculum without adhering to the esoteric religious aspects. We are entirely secular (my husband and son are atheists) and Christopherus has causes us no problems. D

My list of requirements is very similar. We're doing Rome to early middle ages this year, in 6th grade. DS is a voracious reader. I've resisted SOTW for a variety of reasons, but just purchased 1&2 second hand and I think I'll just turn them over to him to read at his leisure. Meanwhile, I have the red Kingfisher, which I find too fragmented and sparse. I use and quite like Van Loon, but I'd really like Will and Amy Durant's history set. Both are available free online. I've not used the Durant one, but Van Loon's has a reasonable pace, is intelligently written and drops relatively few cultural clangers given its age (I have the updated version). Because we are Steiner homeschoolers, I often use Charles Kovacs' little books. I like his Roman book better than I liked the Greeks last year. Its the only book I have that covers Marius and Sulla, my favourite part of Roman history. I'll be watching this thread with interest. D

Oh Mo2, you have no idea how happy you've made me! Those charts are just what my formula-loving scientist's brain needs for social studies. Thank you D

Brilliant - my son is finding set theory really hard. I don't understand why its so difficult because I loved set theory when I was a kid (he are I are wired very differently), which is making it hard to teach him. I think I have been racing him along, thinking that its perfectly logical and he should just be able to see it. The MEP stuff looks beautifully incremental. Should do very nicely! Thanks D

Thanks, Tibbie. Its late here, on the other side of the world. Your post is a lovely collection of thoughts to go to bed with Danielle

Just a quick word of warning from a long-time beeswax crayon user: don't leave them in the car, near the heater or in the pockets of clothes on a hot washing cycle. They will melt, they do stain and they are very hard to get out of the carpet or car seat covers (this is a common conversation for Waldorf mums). People of warm climates, BEWARE! :001_smile: People of cold climates: Waldorf is obsessed with keeping little kids warm. As a Waldorf type, I am often amazed at how thinly dressed little kids are in the cold. Kids should have warm hands. Drawing happens after a story in most Waldorf classrooms: get the kids to hold the crayons while you tell the story: the crayons will be warm when they are ready to draw. D

I'm Australian. I excelled in English through high school. I have a science degree from one of country's top universities. I worked as a scientific writer for years. I had never heard of a 5 paragraph essay until I came to this forum. 5 pargraphs is far too limited. Its a nice formula for beginners, but totally inadequate if you can think up more than three main points to cover. D