Yes, I really think they do need it. IMO, the article is very short sighted. There are far too many college courses which require Algebra and above as prerequistes. How will a 10-14+ y/o ever know what courses or fields they may discover they are interested in while in college or even a trade school? Why limit a young person's potential before they are old enough to see the value in secondary mathematics for themselves? Many colleges and universities require this anyway prior to entry. I don't see this changing at all. So the question is really a moot point for most young people wanting the further their education beyond HS. In fact I think these 'minimum' requirements will only increase over the next several decades. I realize not everyone will go to college or a technical training school or somewhere they are required to *use* secondary math. But I don't think that is a good enough reason to do the absolute minimum one can get away with while in school.

Add the images to your cart as if to print. Then in your shopping cart select 'Photo CD'. They are not that expensive and for images such as these well worth the couple of bucks they charge. I don't see any other way to get the digital copies from Sams Website. Although you could call them and ask just to double check. My son and I are very active photographers. And my first rule is to back all our favorite photos up to an off-site storage host. We use SmugMug which lets you upload and download originals. And it also acts as a nice gallery for our images. Here is our site just to give you an idea: http://landandseaphoto.smugmug.com/galleries I highly recommend you do this once you retrieve their prize winning photos.

The short answer is it really depends. :) As someone who is part of a hiring team I would ask a few questions upfront: 1. What type of job/career is he looking to get into? 2. Does this help him work toward those long terms professional goals? 3. Specifically what type of accreditation does the school have? 4. Is he prepared to answer the 'what is that?' question in interviews? Or 'how did you pick that school/major?' These are just a few things to consider when achieving one's degree. This process is not only time consuming but can be expensive as well. I do think having a degree is important in many lines of work. But it really depends where one goes with it. For an auto machanic or truck driver it is far less important obviously than a civil engineer for example.

Hahaa, we need to start a Pre-Algebra curriculum Purchasing Anonymous (PAPA) support group. I also own Lial's Pre-A book, TM and lessons in CD form. Today I toyed with the idea of purchasing AoPS Pre-A 'briefly.' No more flip flopping people! That's going to be our new motto. :tongue_smilie: Once we hit Algebra 1 Lord help us!!! Crimson Wife, what didn't you like about Horizons pre-a? Just curious.

Ok, then it would definately be more expensive to use. We already use Nooks for our kids' eReaders among other things. Now with the new tablets coming out such as Google's Nexus 7 other competitors are really dropping prices. For example my son's Nook Color which cost $249 initially now sells for $149 and certified pre-owned are only $129.

Ok, I wasn't going to say this. But Stop It! You guys are making me rethink trying out AoPS Pre-A. :lol: Hahaa. I have already convinced myself it won't be a good fit for ds11 because of his style of learning. ;) Just out of curiouslty I did try to have our local library buy the book. But due to recent budget cuts they declined the request. I am curious to see how things progress with you parents who are going through the same Pre-A stage with your kiddos.

Halcyon, that is great to hear! I know you have been thinking about this for quite some time now. And yes, the young brain develops so quickly its amazing what a year can do. Now that you gave him another taste and he seemed to enjoy it, you have a bit better sense this might work for him. It also may be something he enjoys as a regular supplimental brain challenge as he completes MM. Some use Alcumus for this as well.

Hahaa, that made for a good laugh to start the morning out. Did you perhaps write this while perparing a meal? :D That is more of a total immersion or baptism by fire approach. Maybe that works best for AoPS. I couldn't really say. But the gradual introduction of new material spread out over time has worked well for us - sprinkling vs. marinade. It gives new concepts a chance to percolate in the brain. :)

This is great to hear! It sounds like he is ready to step up to the challenge of a more rigorous program. And you are right there to help with this challenge. Glad to hear it. Please report back at some point once into it a bit and let us know how things progress.

Hi Halcyon, I have a suggestion especially since you already have the AoPS Pre-A book. How about a little experiment? Have him start work on the first few chapters lets say just on Fridays. Then observe how he does with it. That is what we are doing with ds11 in MUS Pre-A while finishes MUS Zeta. He's already on chapter 5 of his new book Pre-A book.:tongue_smilie: At this rate I plan to add in a secondary Pre-A source such as Derek Owens or Kinetic Books once he finishes Zeta. I think this gives him a good sense of what's coming next. Plus he enjoys the extra challenge.

Yes, here is a good review of it: http://www.wired.com/geekdad/2012/06/dragonbox/all/ I think I may try it out. Its a pretty small price and nice alternative to Angry Birds. :D

Wow, this looks cool guys, thanks!!! And they have an Android to. :D I think I'll have to buy this fun looking app. I wonder a bit about scope however? I couldn't find much on their website about areas covered. So its a little hard to gauge if it would be too easy for some a bit older or hard for others younger. It just says for 8 y/o and up.

I am concerned about a few things: a. Curriculum constantly changing from early on b. Doesn't like a lot of what's available because its boring (video, computer based, black and white text, etc...). c. Will likely go into a technical field. After changing programs so much there is a chance there are some significant gaps. This is the time to find and fill in those gaps. That's really what Pre-Algebra is for. Math really boils down to hard work. Getting bored can indicate a number of issues. For example the work is too easy and little kiddish for his age? He has trouble following the lessons and gets distracted too easily which leads to boredom? He lost his love/enjoyment for learning math? Maybe the voice is really irritating? I know I can't stand some of these instuctors' voices. The AskDrCallahan Dive instructor really bugs me for example. However one of the goals is to prepare kids for classes with professors they may not care for while in college. Have you considered having him take a 'live class' either online or at a CC? This is one of the reasons I am considering Derek Owens Pre-Algebra. Derek has the students take notes while listening to his lectures just like a normal college course. He also has a self-paced version as well here: http://www.lucideducation.com/?p=Prealgebra.php If he will likely go into a technical field getting comfortable with math is his primary job as a young student right now IMO. I also work in a technical field as a software engineer and my son is interested in this as well. Based on what you mentioned this may be the time to spend more time on Math and really dig into it. Do whatever it takes even if that means two programs at once or one program with supplimentals, more time each day, homework, etc... to get over this hump.

There are a lot of good Pre-A options. But it sounds like your son is very particular about what he does and doesn't like. That along with needing spiral does limit the playing field somewhat. I go back and forth on the idea of picking a Math curiculum based on colorful pictures. All will have to eventually accept b&w school textbooks at some point. But I guess it can help some focus more on their daily tasks at this stage. So there can be value added in that regard. Does your son though have any idea how challenging Horizon Pre-A can be or is it more about the look right now? Based on the limited mixed reviews I've read it can be rigorous and also fast paced with many new concepts. The scope and sequence even includes some Algebra 1 and Trig from what I've read. It seems like some either hate it or love it. Here is one example: http://www.christianbook.com/horizons-pre-algebra-complete/9780740322426/pd/403224 I like the rigorous aspect of it. But if it makes quick mental leaps, that can frustrate a child not ready for them. Since you are strong in Math that might be ok in your case. You could potentially fill in the gaps with supplimentals. CLE 700 & 800 seems to be more of a smooth transition into Algebra. This could be tailored and accelerated. You also mentioned Chalkdust which is known to be more on the rigorous side as well. The question with these more difficult programs is are they the right challenge at the right time for him, colors aside?

Yeah, its fun going through the safe stages together on here and watching the different ways folks end up going with their curricula. I think most parents here are going to do fine with their children taking such active roles, adjusting where they see the need, tailoring as they go. :D Sometimes we *will* make mistakes. But as this thread demonstrates we can always change course... sometimes more than once. ;)

Yeah, I am honestly not as concerned with this during the primary math stage. Everything is very concrete. True some primary programs are known to be more conceptual. But we also suppliment with things like HOE, LOF, etc... Even for Secondary Math I don't know that I want to emphasize conceptual over practical application. I'm leaning away from things like AoPS and more toward Foerster for example. Both are good ways to go. It just depends on one's goals.

I vote for moving to CLE as I think it is stronger and more challenging than TT. TT is known to be one grade behind. So your experience with their test scores sounds about right. I see no value in staying with TT if they are not liking it and willing to use another program such as these others. Regarding CLE 700, 800 series and Pre-Algebra, some parents use either one as Pre-A, not always both, then move into Algebra. Or you could accelerate them. That would be an option for you. Since the one is moving from Primary to Secondary math you may want to consider another approach entirely with him looking ahead to Algebra 1. There are *so* many good Pre-A options. That said CLE had recently developed a new CLE 900 Algebra 'Sunrise' edition if you wanted to stay with CLE a little longer. After CLE 900 CLE becomes Alpha Omega and is not considered as strong. True Horizons is more colorful. But is that really necessary to learn math? Maybe for some kids it helps them learn through keeping them more engaged. However eventually math will not be colorful and one learns to deal with regular school textbooks. Our two younger daughters find CLE fun. But we've never shown them anything colorful either.:tongue_smilie: I've also heard Horizons can be somewhat tedious with a lot of extra drills. However hard work is not always a bad thing.

There is no shortage of good curriculum that fits your criteria. :) CLE is a great option which is spiral but not overly redundant. MUS works well for many as a mastery approach. Our son liked it. But our daughters like CLE more. MUS's scope and sequence is quite different which can make switching a challenge. We also have used MM briefly which is another good option depending on your child. Ours preferred the other two. I would take a look at samples to help determine which would work best for the both of you.

The biggest change for us has occured in Math. We've had all three in MUS from Primer on. Then our middle daughter grew frustrated with math as she wasn't retaining things. We tried a few different approaches such as MM and CLE and she really liked CLE. So we switched and she has been much happier. Because CLE was enjoyed so much by dd8 my dw decided to sell *all* the MUS elementary curriculum and go with CLE for our younger dd6 as well. Both girls now seem to be doing better using CLE and enjoying math again. In contrast ds11 liked MUS all the way through. He is actually finishing this year with MUS Pre-Algebra. Although I do plan to suppliment it with another program before he moves into Algebra 1 and away from MUS. In terms of math schedule we went from time based (e.g. do math for 1.5 hours in the AM) to assignment based. This seems to motivate them to work more efficiently and potentially have more free time.

Math-U-See

CLE for math but not LA. Writing With Style (WWS) Apologia Science Veritas history Building Thinking Skills - critial thinking

We are have used MUS all the way through from Primer to Pre-Algebra with our ds11. He seemed to do fine with it. The only downside I've noticed with is that MUS wasn't the most challenging in terms of problems. So we supplimented some with LOF and a little with Singapore Challenging Word Problems (CWP). CWP were obviously much harder than anything in MUS. I was really torn after Zeta whether to continue with it. But because Scope and Sequence is so different from other programs we wanted to fill those gaps with things left out until Pre-A. Once he gets ~ half way through MUS Pre-A I plan to double up with another Pre-A program to cover anything which may have been missed or forgotten before proceeding with Algebra using a different curriculum. With our middle daughter it just wasn't a good fit as she was forgetting too much and getting frustrated with math in general. We eventually switched to CLE which is spiral vs. mastery and she is doing much better with it. She also finds it more enjoyable than MUS. Switching mid-stream during the elementary years can be challenging because the scope and sequence is different. We took a step back from MUS to CLE to really make sure we cover areas not introduced yet in MUS. But the switch was worth it as she's doing better and moving quickly through CLE. Since CLE was such a hit with our middle dd we switched our youngest as well this year. I still recommend MUS to certain parents depending on what they are looking for. Like with any program I think the parent/teacher needs to be somewhat flexible if something is not working for one where it did for another. Each child even in the same family can learn differently.

I agree with dbmamas about finding out where the gaps might be and then filling them in. Math really builds on itself. So if one has a weak foundation the next level which follows doesn't usually go well. Do you think she has her primary math down? In terms of programs you may want to have a look at Math-U-See (MUS). Its very gentle and incremental as you've described. It focuses on 'mastery' which may be what she needs. TT is also known to be gentle and is 'spiral' in its approach. She just might need to look at things from a fresh perspective with supplimentals.

Thanks for sharing your children's experiences 8Fill along with your perspective on AoPS vs. direct instruction. I am considering Foerster's alg 1 for my ds. So I'm curious what your dd plans to do after Foerster alg 1?

Wow, that sounds like a really fun and solid combination. And most importantly your ds likes it which usually means he'll stayed engaged with it. I've heard some real positive feedback from parents using KB as a full Math program with their kids. I'm not sure you will need too much supplimental with it. Though it couldn't hurt. I'm also considering KB Pre-Algebra for my ds BTW. So please report back after you use it for a while. Are you starting with Pre-Algebra? I'll start with the trial and see what he thinks.