So do you lecture from the book? Is that what you mean in terms of getting in the way? It didn't look like the kind of thing I could just give ds11 and say go to it. This seems to require more parent involvement than some of the other programs we've use such as MUS, CLE, KineticBooks, TableClass.

We used MUS Primer and some of Alpha with dd6 before 1st grade. Now she is in CLE 100 and having no problems with a good amount of review.

Just curious if you went through all ~ 900 pages of the textbook? Did you find the layout and writting style somewhat difficult/busy? Even though we didn't like it I've heard from other who seem to. I need to get around to selling the books soon as they are just sitting around collecting dust.

I would definately afterschool in this case. I hate the thought of taking a bright student who enjoys math and boring the heck out of them going basically over arithmetic review again. I went through that back in the stone age while in middle school. Then when I got to HS Algebra it was my most difficult class because the middle school did basically nothing to prepare me for it. Had I at least had the opportunity to be exposed to the concepts, things would have gone so much smoother. That is one of the reasons why I want to spend more time on Algebra with my son, most likely two years in 7th and 8th grade.

We use K-9 and AVG/BSecure, but will be removing AVG now that K-9 has an Android filter as well. AVG Whole Home Filtering does not work correctly in our wireless network. But K-9 which is free does a better job when installed locally on each machine/device.

I agree with Crimson Wife overall. Arithmetic is boring, memorizing times tables, fractions, decimals, etc... But sometimes you can find math games which help to add a little variety. Also consider Hands-on-Equations. It teaches advanced topics to younger kids in fun, visual ways. We also did DreamBox for a while as a suppliment and our girls loved it. That said I do think some programs are *extra* boring depending on certain children's learing style. Our girls didn't like mastery programs such as MM or MUS. They are happier now using CLE which is spiral. It provides more daily variety for them.

We have had a similar experience with our girls. They were forgetting too much with a mastery approach. We started with MUS and tried MM briefly. However our son seemed to thrive with mastery using MUS. So I do think it depends on the child. Spiral is just better for them. And we really like the way CLE keeps things interested with a lot of variety as well early introductions to more advanced concepts.

Hi Stephanie, sorry to hear about your current math dilemma. Weren't you trying out KineticBooks as well? Or was that for another child? Anyway, to answer your question my son just finished MUS Zeta which covers Decimals and Percents. I think it includes a little bit of fractions, but only for the purpose of introducing decimals and percents. Fractions are covered in the prior book as a whole. MUS is Mastery based. So they really cover decimals and percents pretty completely. He is doing fine in Pre-Algebra now. We demo'd KB and TabletClass and ended up liking TabletClass a bit more. He finds a lot of what he is doing is review. We also supplimented with HOE. That helped to introduce variables. The only complaint I've heard about MUS is that some feel it is not rigorous enough compared to SM for example. But you could always suppliment if you feel the need. I will include the scope and sequence which I copied form their website below: LESSON 1 Exponents; Word Problem Tips LESSON 2 Place Value LESSON 3 Decimal Numbers with Expanded Notation LESSON 4 Add Decimal Numbers LESSON 5 Subtract Decimal Numbers LESSON 6 Metric System Origin–Meter, Liter, Gram LESSON 7 Metric System–Latin Prefixes LESSON 8 Metric System Conversion–Part 1 LESSON 9 Multiply by 1/10 or .1 LESSON 10 Multiply Decimals by 1/100 or .01 LESSON 11 Finding a Percent of a Number LESSON 12 Finding a Percent > 100%; Word Problems LESSON 13 Reading Percents in a Pie Graph LESSON 14 Multiply All Decimals LESSON 15 Metric System Conversions – Part 2 LESSON 16 Computing Area and Circumference LESSON 17 Dividing a Decimal by a Whole Number LESSON 18 Dividing a Whole Number by a Decimal LESSON 19 Solving for an Unknown LESSON 20 Dividing Decimal by a Decimal LESSON 21 Decimal Remainders LESSON 22 More Solving for an Unknown LESSON 23 Transform Any Fraction LESSON 24 Decimals as Rational Numbers LESSON 25 Mean, Median, and Mode LESSON 26 Probability LESSON 27 Points, Lines, Rays, and Line Segments LESSON 28 Planes and Symbols LESSON 29 Angles LESSON 30 Types of Angles

I wanted to thank everyone for participating, even those with differing experiences or views from my own. I know that these are somewhat hot button issues for many of us. But I still think they are important to consider. I value this group's thoughts and experiences with your own children. ;) It has given me good food for thought as I plan for the future.

Another couple options if able to consider *very* affordable are Math Mammoth and CLE. For the low cost they are very solid programs. We're using CLE now.

We own the workbook and solutions manual Grantmom referenced above, which includes solution steps. We even purchased the video lectures from the publisher which come in a set of CDs. However to be honest Lial just wasn't for us. We didn't like the layout of the text. Its very busy, kind of scatter brained looking, almost 900 pages worth. Instead we ended up using a combination of MUS and TabletClass Pre-Algebra which we like better. For a textbook the MUS Pre-Algrebra workbook is pretty well layed out and easy to follow. At that level you don't need to use manipulatives. MUS comes with lectures which are short and to the point. I recently switched to using TabletClass as the spine because I found it more challenging, something I think ds11 was ready for. However I plan to weave in some MUS along with TabletClass when he hits certain areas which could use additional explanation from another perspective. I guess I could use something like Khan Academy for that as well.

I also work for a large defense contractor which does semiconductor work among many other things. A much greater percentage of our engineering workforce is not as niche as you are describing. Don't get me wrong, I have worked alongside PhDs in EE from Ivys. However that degree was not required for their position. In fact in the majority of cases they work in the same group with guys/gals from state schools and a larger variety of other colleges and universities. I'm not discounted your niche experiences you've described, but rather placing it within context of the whole. I have worked in the Bay Area, Los Angeles and Colorado. In every market we recruit and hire engineers from a full spectrum of colleges and universities. In fact we have recruited directly through a consortium program established with a local state university. That is why I do not see this as an Ivy or nothing proposition, especially in relation to STEM careers. Are there niche fields with smaller groups doing selective hiring only from certain universities, most likely their own? Yes, of course. But do the vast majority of high tech jobs require this? No, absolutely not. There are simply too many positions to fill to be so narrowly focused in one's hiring practices. Quite frankly there are too many highly skilled professionals from other schools to discount them in lieu of an Ivy like pedigree. One's real world experiences are of far greater value to our engineering teams.

Interesting perspective coming from an Ivy alum. I like that the director, Vicki, is meeting with all types of schools including Ivys such as Stanford as well as policy makers. This is an important dialogue to have, one which I think even the top rated schools are becoming more aware of. While everyone might not agree with all the film's points, I think we are all aware of the need to change many of the broken patterns which exist within our current system - teaching to the test, an over emphasis upon it, focus on rote memory, etc... As far as where to watch it, there are quite a few screenings throughout the nation. Here is a list by state. http://www.racetonowhere.com/screenings The closest one to us is coming up next month in San Jose. I may take the whole family to watch it. Although I'm not sure since it is rated PG-13. You can also order it for community events here: http://www.racetonowhere.com/store It looks like they will eventually release it for home viewing, but not yet.

Sounds great Catherine. I am thinking of using the same thing for Algebra in the 7th grade - Foerster along with David Chandler's lectures. I plan to spend more time on Algebra 1, possibly all of 7th & 8th grade to really focus on understanding as well as becoming comfortable with the material. The one part I haven't decided upon is to stretch out a single program or use two somewhat differently focused programs to gain another perspective. For example I am considering using Foerster along with LOF or Edward Zaccaro's Real World Algebra (which I have heard great things about) either in parallel or sequentially. Part of this will depend on what my son seems to like most. I do like allowing him to have some say regarding which programs he prefers, as long as they are solid in their approach.

This helps understand your perspective based on your immediate family and how things seemed to work out. Many of us have observed this not to be the case in the majority of work environments we are in nor for our friends or families. That said I certainly don't think an Ivy school is a bad thing per se, even if somewhat overrated depending on the field of study. I know some pride themselves in their alma mater. My BIL has USC everything and insists on going to the all games, etc... I find it mildly amusing to somewhat obnoxious, especially since my dad was a UCLA ulum.:tongue_smilie: I also don't think his USC degree has helped him more than one from a state school would have in his profession of finance. He is not very happy in his job and planning a complete career change working on his PhD in family counseling. My SIL graduated top of her class from UCSD, a highly regarded UC school. Yet she could not find a job in her area of study (international business). So she ended up taking a very low paying job just to make ends meet. My wife on the other hand with only an AS degree in business was able to put me through school while I was working toward my masters degree. The big difference was my wife is very talented in accounting and basically learned most of what she knows on the job. Now she is happily a SAHM doing exactly what she enjoys doing. We have many friends with a variety of these same experiences.

In my experience as a hiring manager for a fortune 500 company this is what really counts. No one on our hiring team cares even remotely as much about a pedigree as we do experience and demonstrated initiative. The notion that someone must attend an Ivy or similar school to attain some level of success as a highly trained worker is false. While there are some select companies that hire 'their own' that is no way the majority or standard in the IT industry which I work in. In hiring junior engineers, for example, I have *never* seen a case where two candidates had all things equal besides their pedigree. In each and every case the final decision to hire has been based upon their *experiences* including internships/co-ops which best match the job they are applying for. I also know of a recent colleague who accepted a position in the Silicon Valley with a company founded by Stanford grads. Although that co. typically tends to hire the same he was hired over others because of his high level of skills. He attended a state school. This same principle applies for the majority of professions within the US. I know many successful medical professionals who attended state schools for example. Based on the overwelming evidence I reject any notion that only Ivy grads are employable in highly skilled careers. It simply isn't true.

As always I find your practical experiences and insights very helpful 8FillTheHeart. I think we have a similar philosophy of education and parenting.

I found it interesting reading Caitlin Flanagan's rebutal in that the focus wasn't so much on the current obvious problems with the educational system but rather on 'doing what it takes' in spite of it to get into the top schools. This seems like a means to ends pragmatic approach if that really is the primary objective or definition of success for the 'Tiger Mom.' So I think I understand where this drive to the top is coming from. Our definition of success for our kids academically is significantly different from the Tiger Mom. As such I relate much more to the Producer's points of view regarding need for significant change starting first with our own approach with our kids. I did like Vicki's answer to Caitlin's article. The good news is this forum can span everyone from Tiger Moms (and Dads) to the Good Moms (and Dads) which Caitlin describes. -- http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2011/05/good-mother-vs-tiger-mother-a-response-to-caitlin-flanagan/238442/

Ok, In another recent thread started by Amber regarding starting Algebra by 8th grade this film was brought up which I had never heard of before. In looking it up I couldn't find a showing anywhere near. However I did find a great interview with the producer and Katie Couric describing this modern day dilema both kids and parent are facing in America (see link below). I am hoping to get your thoughts on it without hijacking the original thread too much. I realize we won't all agree on these critical challenges facing our children or current institutional practices. But I still value your input as we plan ahead from this life stage and beyond. One of the most interesting things discussed was this overemphasis on AP classes followed by memorizing a bunch of facts to get A's on the AP tests. And then students moving on to the next one forgetting most of what was covered - one brain dump to the next. Teachers teach to the AP test and students study to the test while critical thinking and other more important apsects of higher learning are de-emphasized. Both students and teachers found this to be a common problem within the current system they work in. There was mention in the prior thread about the shock some parents felt when their DC didn't get into top tier schools even with ~ 10 AP classes. But the funny thing is as described in the film quite a number of schools including top universities are placing less weight on this now. Its become so common for kids and parents to cram a bunch of AP classes in that the schools are looking for 'other' indicators of academic potential. We're losing the ability to teach that spirit of innovation, creativity, collaboration and exploration which makes America great. Instead kids are exchanging those critical and creative thinking skills for enhanced rote memory skills in order to pass more standardized tests. I like that some schools are reducing or eliminating APs for this very reason. The most shocking part is the intense pressure kids feel with these classes to get As, so much so that some have even killed themselves over it. What a horrible outcome to the well meaning parent and school efforts in this race toward supposed success. Imagine the pressure that must have been felt by a 13 y/o girl to see no other way to relieve her pain than to take her own life... Tragic! The trailer is good as well:

Beth, its interesting to get your perspective on this. I am sure not all AP classes are created equal. I do wonder if you have had a chance to watch the video? I also want to say that I think this thread has gone quite a bit off course from Amber's original question. Though facinating with plenty of food for thought I think this topic (Race to Nowhere) should be addressed in another thread. I do like that we can share our various opinions and remain civil. It really helps to see both sides of these difficult challenges both we as parents and our children face. With that in mind I think I will start a new thread. Thanks for participating,

Ok, I had a chance to look up this film because it sounded interesting. But I couldn't find it anywhere near. Yet I did find a great interview with the producer and Katie Couric describing this modern day dilema both kids and parent are facing in America. One of the most interesting things discussed was this overemphasis on AP classes followed by memorizing a bunch of facts to get A's on the AP tests. And then students moving on to the next one forgetting most of what was covered - one brain dump to the next. Teachers teach to the AP test and students study to the test while critical thinking and other more important apsects of higher learning are de-emphasized. There was mention in this thread earlier about the shock some parents felt when their DC didn't get into top tier schools even with ~ 10 AP classes. But the funny thing is as described in the film quite a number of schools including top universities are placing less weight on this now. Its become so common for kids and parents to cram a bunch of AP classes in that the schools are looking for 'other' indicators of academic potential. We're losing the ability to teach that spirit of innovation, creativity, collaboration and exploration which makes America great. Instead kids are exchanging those critical and creative thinking skills for enhanced rote memory skills in order to pass more tests. I like that some schools are reducing or eliminating APs for this very reason. The most shocking part is the intense pressure kids feel with these classes to get As, so much so that some have even killed themselves over it. What a horrible outcome to the well meaning parent and school efforts in this race toward supposed success. Imagine the pressure that must have been felt by a 13 y/o girl to see no other way to relieve her pain than to take her own life... Tragic!

Whoa 8FillTheHeart, this is a great contribution to this important topic which I'm sure is read by many parents. I find it mildly humorous that he is now looking at state schools even after all of his early university course work. For many professions graduate level work is where it is at. So yes, nothing wrong with saving some money and attending state schools at the undergrad level. However in my field of IT a STEM grad degree from a quality state school would be very valuable as well. Before I moved into the IT industry and did a Masters in the area I was attending a private U. known for its famous med school and research hospital. I was considering the fields of PT and OT. At the same time I had friends attending the local State U. with similar majors. Over time I noticed that the ones who eventually graduated in OT and PT with their masters degrees did just as good professionally as those who attended the private, more exclusive, 'expensive' universities. I think many times the more costly options can be somewhat overrated in a number of professions. It really depends on the area a young person hopes to get into and what that school does to help them get there. The available internships, co-ops, clinicals, part-time work opportunties, etc... are all very important aspects of the overall education process.

Well, yes. For many of us left brain oriented type folks math is systematic. So if we then try to apply a similar approach toward the education of the subject a basic 'formulaic' methodolgy can emerge. Unfortunately one size or formula does 'Not' fit all children. The human brain and childhood development are too complex for any single approach to work for all. So what seems to work or be logical for one family is not neccessarily that way for another or even children in the 'same' family. Different areas of the brain develop at differing rates on a child by child basis. Those who develop abstract reasoning a bit later may in fact surpass those of their earlier to develop peers. Its not a straight line. Add to that nature vs. nurture and it becomes a much more complex system.

Kiana, this sounds like trying to put a round peg in a square hole. Some kids just need more time in certain areas vs. the herd mentality of rushing ahead. With homeschool families this may be a bit harder to gauge, especially since you wouldn't necessarily have math transcripts to look at. So as the parents I think we need to be more in tune with where they really are. There is the tension between moving 'em along to keep up with an impressive schedule vs. true mastery and understanding of the material presented. It is ultimately *our* responsibility as the child will do whatever we tell them is next. The honest truth is we have the full spectrum represented on a forum such as this. Some kids are math whizzes and may in fact end up attending top tier schools, Ivy or otherwise their freshman year. While others will struggle with algebra and take some remedial math at the local CC. There will be others who take dual enrollment and finish HS with their college math mostly completed. And the list goes on. I would venture to say that even within a large family there will be quite a bit of variance. Then there is the nature vs. nurture question. Of course some children are naturally gifted. But how many students would thrive more if given the right opportunties to do so, especially with tailoring based on their learning style or slowing down where developmentally needed? Then there is the converse need to speed things up when they are ready and challenging their developing brains vs. dragging things out unnecessarily. Such a simple original question brings up so many things to consider. I tend to believe everyone on here is trying to do the right thing for their child. Otherwise why even participate? Of course many will take different paths to get there. Still it is interesting to consider the various approaches taken and rationale behind them.

Amber, What you have done??? LOL :D :tongue_smilie: